Sovietwarplanes

Hi Misos, hi all,

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/P-39_59Suchov_zps2217ebf1.jpg)
Nice image. Any considerations about the camouflage?

Is this confirmed by other photos? The light seems too sharp, and it's not a fabric-covered part where it could be caused by an internal strut. Maybe the plane had a colored tip anyway?
Regards
Massimo

That P-39 seems to be overpainted (apparent around/bellow cockpit, no serial numbers...). This profile shows repainted areas nicely although I am not sure about colors:
(http://www.airaces.narod.ru/all4/suhov_k4.jpg)

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/Suchov_P-39_01_zps9e17b86a.jpg)

(http://crimso.msk.ru/Images6/AS/AS91-1/4-1.jpg)

Here we can see Pokryshkin standing on the wing of Suchov's P-39 during "highway exercise":
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/Suchov_P-39_02_zps10e9cd1a.jpg)

Regards,
     66misos

Hi Misos, this is very interesting. The thing of the tail looks really a matter of curvature.
Plane n.50 is extremely interesting too, I think that the profile is oversimplified because there are darker blotches over the nose, well visible on photos. It's likely that the rear was repainted with some Soviet color, probably green.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
on scalemodels.ru I found another images of Suchov's P-39:
(http://s11.postimage.org/w5egc6qdv/00987.jpg)

(http://s16.postimage.org/bibs50t3n/img0091.jpg)

Plus there were info:
1.) after rear fuselage was reinforced in SU, it was repainted by available green (usually AMT-4),
2.) AMT-4 was developed (from green tonality point of view) from 4BO. They both looked (very) similarly when freshly painted. This is interesting when looking for "available/on hand" green paint to overpaint blue or white circles under the red stars on P-39s.

regards,
     66misos

Hi Misos,
to tell the truth, I think that this profile doesn't resembe to the plane as shown in the photos.
The information that it was modified on its rear fuselage and then repainted green is sure, or an interpretation only?
I can't see the second image you have posted.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,

Here are pictures I found at scalemodels.ru:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_Sukhov/Sukhov_01_zpsd2998117.jpg)

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_Sukhov/P-39Suchov_zps3923c579.jpg)

Information that it was modified on its rear fuselage and then repainted green is only interpretation based on similar info from scalemodels.ru, related to your:
I have not found confirming info about specifically Sukhov's P-39 yet. I probably find something in his memoirs.

Massimo, would it be worth to make new topic e.g. "P-39 Sukhov" and move there all these Suchov related posts and not mix/lost them in this Pokryshkin topic? I would like to stay focused on Pokryshkin in this Pokryshkin thread ;)

Regards,
     66misos

Hi,
I've done. Unfortunately the 'split' doesn't fun well in mixed posts, so I've made a new one and copy-pasted the parts on Suchov's plane.
Only, it is funny because it looks that I answer to myself.
Regards
Massimo

AMT-4 was a nitro varnish and nitro varnishes were primarily developed for fabric.  AMT paints were used on metal planes only if surfaces were primed first.
Oil paints were developed specially for metal planes, so P-39s were probably repainted with oil paints. A-24m was more likely used instead of AMT-4.  Even 4BO is more likely than nitro AMT-4.

There is no AMT-4 on P-39 displayed in Finland.

Regards,
KL

Hi KL,

Of course, A-24m is also possibility.
However, photos show that overpainting was not done on metal but on more-less "primed" surface - original US primer + Olive Drab + Blue/White paint. From modeller point of view is important that he will/should get very similar results regardless he uses AKAN AMT-4 or 4BO.
I mentioned AMT-4 because unit had previously MiGG-3, I-16 and Yaks so in spring/summer 1943 they still could have some spare AMT-4 on stock. 4BO was used for military vehicles etc. so it could also be on hands. And no new Russian paints delivery would be necessary, at least at the beginning, during hectic Kuban campaign.

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_Sukhov/Sukhov_01_zpsd2998117.jpg)

USAF Dark Green over Olive Drab scheme was very different then drawings and profiles above.  Dark Green patches were always applied along leading and drailing adges - the idea was to brake-up planes outline.  In its original form, Dark Gren patches were actually shaped as wedges (can't find any photos  :-[)

(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x31/warhawk_photo/razno/022.jpg)

AFAIK, this scheme hasn't been used on P-39s.  So, Suhov's P-39 doesn't have anything in common with USAAF's DG over OD.

All Soviet P-39s were supposed to have their tails modified i.e. strengthened in mid/late 1944.  This was done after several planes were lost due to poor stall characteristics and their weak tails.  More on P-39 stall problems and tail modifications at http://www.airpages.ru/uk/p39_2.shtml

"В конструкторском бюро Центральной научно-эксплуатационной базы (ЦНЭБ) ВВС инженер М.С.Малков разработал методику подкрепления набора в хвостовой части. Опытный самолет переделали и испытали в НИИ ВВС. Вслед за этим доработку ?Аэрокобр? развернули непосредственно в полках. Только в ПВО таким образом переделали 326 самолетов. В различных частях по собственной инициативе вносили в планер истребителя другие усиления. Так, в 273-й дивизии ставили накладки на лонжероны стабилизатора."

P-39 now in Buffalo Museum had its tail strengtened.

HTH,
KL

Primed means yellow ALG-1 first.  This has not been seen on wrecks, usually it's one coat of Olive Green
(http://i.pics.livejournal.com/as_1919/47713503/871/original.jpg)

If this was AMT-4 it probably would not survive...  Oil/alkyd paints are harder and more resistant to weathering.

Yes, it's true; 4BO, AMT-4 and A-24m should look the same on plastic models.

HTH,
KL 

More about P-39 at Buffalo Museum at http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/sheppard/p39/index.htm


additional skins around radio compartment hatches are visible below.  Additional alluminum sheetmetal is dark "protective green", maybe 3B ???
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_uSMdZ1Gk_ds/SdWL2GsoyaI/AAAAAAAACkc/1ZtcTdTXlFs/s800/DSC05149.JPG)
from  http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/woooo-found-my-new-volunteer-job-p-39-airacobra-inside-192214-2.html

Hi Massimo,
thank you for creating new thread about Sukhov's P-39.
I was a couple days without PC so I write only now.

Hi KL,
I am happy with your statement ;):

Yes, I saw this always on the "big" planes, e.g. DC-3, B-17 etc., but never on fighters.

Here are some photos of P-39 rear fuselage reinforcement found on scalemodels.ru http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_17216.html (http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_17216.html):

(http://s2.postimage.org/i6ggccf9l/1_013_9_A111111111111111111.jpg)

(http://s3.postimage.org/b0hzu50ar/DSC3053_small.jpg)
and some interesting thought from that forum:
"...it seems that USAF marking and white circle (+red star) was painted still in US. And then, after reinforced tail it was painted dark green... This analysis is based on the real plane, not on photos."

"USAF marking was overpainted still in US by probably a green zinc chromate:"
(http://s3.postimage.org/p5aha3m4j/DSC3704.jpg)

And here are some possible AKAN colors posted by Akan:
(http://s3.postimage.org/vfsclichv/82039_82015_83001_82004.jpg)
Akan:
"...I prefer option it (lighter green) was interior green (№ 82 004 - the image № 204), as it is the most light-green with a characteristic expression of the yellow component. The second one (darker), I also took from the American palette, and in my opinion is number 82015 (on the image number 215).
Why I rejected the AMT-4? Generally, it was decently darker and more brown. And I did not find an analogy with "dark green" in our colors. I do my conclusion that they were native American paints. Lighter green - interior green (№ 82004/204), and the second (darker green) - although I never saw it on the planes, but still in tone and brightness is very similar to the Army Green (№ 82015/215)."

regards,
     66misos

Hi Misos, hi KL,
was this streghtening work made in Soviet Union? Wh knows if US supplied escorts of their paints to Soviets? If so, the strange camouflage of Suchov's plane could include more US colors apart for the OD.
It seems that P-39 in Soviet service were repainted with dark green in late 1944. It appears very dark on photos. I wonder if it was simply fresh Soviet green, or what else. 
P-63s look very dark even in US service, do you know if the easily fading US OD was replaced by a better paint?
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,

that strenghtening work was made in US, in Bell factory according to the Soviet (CAGI) recommendations. Only at very beginning it was done in SU as kind of improvisation.
P-39s were delivered with kind of service pack (I do not know exact military terminology) including spare parts and paints. So Olive Drab was real possibility also in SU not only during the initial delivery, but also in later service. However, everything depended on concrete condition in concrete unit in concrete time.
I have no exact info whether easily fading US OD was replaced by a better (soviet?) paint as a general rule. There were several discussions about it also at scalemodels.ru. There are different opinions, including "painted with anything on hand", "why waste time/effort/material to overpaint complete plane if only a (repaired) part was necessary" etc. Basically very practical and effective approach.

As already "educated" (KL, thank you ;)) that e.g. red color can appears like anything from almost white to almost black on b/w photos I do not rely on them. If no other clear proof exists, I (as a modeller) will (at least now) go for faded OD combined with fresh OD over white/blue circles and  probably some Russian paints for other repaintings. At least overall green surface without red spinner/tail tip will not be so homogeneous and visually more attractive.

Regards,
    66misos

Hi Misos,
seeing at that piece of rear fuselage, it could be that Suchov has utilized the same colors with a deliberate disruptive purpose. So, his plane could have a light green, olive drab and dark green painting, whatever is the origin of the paint. 
Regards
Massimo

Hmmm...  ???  Have you read text at  http://www.airpages.ru/uk/p39_2.shtml ? ???

Bell engineers went to Soviet Union to collect evidence in late fall 1943.
Pilots in service units were killed/injured in stall accidents in 1944.  B. Glinka was injured in such an accident in July 1944.
Official instructions regarding C.G. limits were issued in spring 1944.

More details about P-39 stall problems and structural weakness at http://pro-samolet.ru/samolet-usa/63-istrebiteli/246-usa-istrebitel?start=12

Most important piece of info there: Не осталась в стороне и сама фирма "Белл". На поздних сериях модификации Q существенно усилили хвостовую часть фюзеляжа и ввели установку балласта в носу фюзеляжа.

Only late P-39Q were modified/strengthened by Bell...  Remaining P-39s were modified by Soviets.

Buffalo Museum P-39 had its rear fuselage modified by Soviets in August 1944.  This is clearly explained at http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/sheppard/p39/index.htm
Dark green parts below are Soviet modifications
(http://s3.postimage.org/b0hzu50ar/DSC3053_small.jpg)

IMHO, dark green is a Soviet paint - it could be anything, even ALG-5 primer (which would be more logical than other dark green paints).


US aviation paints in Soviet Union - Very interesting, but we need at least a single piece of evidence for this.  Any documents?  any wrecks?
Without evidence it is still a guess (you may call it a hypothesis).

Regards,
KL

more about versions and production numbers here: http://www.airvectors.net/avp39.html#m3

Only P-39Q-25 and P-39Q-30 had tails modified at the factory. Those were two last P-39 versions in production
P-39Q-25 had 4-blade propeller, very distinctive sub-type. 700 P-39Q-25 plus 400 P-39Q-30 were made.

1100 out of 4905 P-39Q made, had tails modified by Bell.

HTH,
KL 

Hi KL,
thanx for additional info about types/numbers of strengthened P-39s. As I can rely only on published info (books, posts, etc.) it is another brick to the overall mosaic. :)

I do not want to argue, you are right that a lot of info posted here and in Pokryshkin thread are only hypothesis but:


Here http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1367.msg10588#msg10588 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1367.msg10588#msg10588) I wrote:
"V. Roman in his book Airacobras over Kuban writes, that there was a big airplane assembling factory in Abadan built by Douglas in line with USAF order.
Red stars painted in Abadan were in line with rules, e.g. with the thin (1cm) black outline. But blue circles were repainted rather sloppy, often with British or Russian paints, which did not match original US Olive Drab and Neutral Grey? So often blue circles were kept, red stars with black outline over them. The planes were flown to 25ZAP in Adji-Kabul after repainting.
But sometimes planes were flown from Abadan to Adji-Kabul with original USAF stars. In such cases the final look of the stars and circles strongly depended on the taste of the 25ZAP technical staff?"
My understanding is that in Abadan (e.g. in Soviet Union) in Douglas facility they used US paints to repaint US marking. And if for any reasons US paints were not available then often British or Russian paints were used. Or kept unpainted. May be I am wrong. :-\


For me is important that there is additional possible paint. Original idea of single "boring" Olive Drab changes to idea of relatively "colorfull" surface - faded/weathered OD, fresh OD, Green Zinc Chromate, A-24m, 4BO, AMT-4 and probably also another green colors.

Regards,
     66misos

Hi Missos,  :)

This question:  "Did US and Britain supply aviation paints to SSSR within L-L?" is frustrating and irritating...

30-40 years ago it was taken for granted that Russians didn't have aviation paints (tractor pains were good enough), that they didn't have idea what is camouflage and that British Green and Brown camouflage scheme was common on Yaks and LaGGs.

It has been proven that nothing said above was true.

Now you are proposing a "reduced hypothesis":  Few cans of US paints did arrive with each P-39....

I don't know, it's suspicious - I would like to see some evidence.  ;D

Regards,
KL

 

Hi KL,
To make things clear, I do not want to generate some strange reduced hypothesis. ;)
I posted ideas from scalemodels.ru, polemic is also there and today.

I try to assemble mosaic from as much as possible infomations - to find possible colors used for overpaintings on P-39s to make kit of Pokryshkin's and/or Sukhov's P-39 maximaly realistic. I really do not want to invent some new "tractor olive drab". ;)
I continue searching.

Regards,
     66misos

Hi,
when looked at pictures of Sukhov's P-39 I realized that he had to like that national marking pretty much. :)
Rear part of the fuselage of his P-39 is completely overpainted, even no serial numbers on the tail are visible. And that overpainting has soft edges, e.g. it was sprayed, not handbrushed.

Regardless his P-39 was reinforced or it underwent some structural repair/maintenance, following overpainting had to affect original red stars in white circle:
(http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/photogallery/p39q/i_grinberg_p39q_011.jpg)     (http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/photogallery/p39q/i_grinberg_p39q_010.jpg)
More pictures on http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/photogallery/p39q/p39q_1.htm (http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/photogallery/p39q/p39q_1.htm).

Despite the valid rules/orders defining appearance of Soviet national marking, Sukhov let either mask (=protect) original marking or repaint it in original way. Note red star is bit smaller than white circle, it does not fit it so precisely as on the original "Bell" marking:
(http://crimso.msk.ru/Images6/AS/AS91-1/4-1.jpg)

It shows again that orders for painting were one thing and let's say "personal approach" was often something different.
Regards,
     66misos

Hi Misos,
the repainting on the rear fuselage really follows the reinforcemen, so it is credible that the light color on the fuselage is faded olive drab and the repainting dark green. The color on the nose still gives the impression to be lighter.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
do you also see the grey color above the head of the person standing to the right and on the tail a bit darker then grey further to the right, but still lighter then the very dark grey covering reinforcement on this photo?
(http://crimso.msk.ru/Images6/AS/AS91-1/4-1.jpg)

Three green colors: 1.) light grey = faded original OD, 2.) medium grey = older blotches of some (Russian) green and 3.) dark grey = green paint (same but newer or even different Russian paint) covering reinforcement?  ???

Regards,
    66misos

Hi Misos,
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/Suchov_P-39_01_zps9e17b86a.jpg)
the lighter color on the nose gives the idea to have been painted as last one, look at the rounded shape of the blotches. I suppose that they tested both dark green and light brown (AMT-1 or A-21M) as matches to repaint the faded olive drab, the pilot was pleased with the result and used both colors obtaining a camouflage.
My guess is that the medium color is the original OD, and the lighter one is brown.
Regards
Massimo

Hello!
This is one of my all time favourite plane, and I know that sooner or later I will build it.
We had a lot of arquement, conversation about it?s colors.
I know of only one command, that might help you.
The Lendlease planes had to be painted int he AMT 11-12  after reapair, since 1943.
I have huge suspcion,that beside the OD , there was some of the AMT grey paint used.
It depends on wether we take the darker or lighter shade of paint to be the original OD.

Hi Ohotnyik,
I've seen photos of two lend-lease planes only almost with the grey-grey camo: a P-47 razorback and a P-40 converted into twoseater.  If you have other ones, I'm greatly interested.
It is possible that they have used some grey on the nose of the P-39, AMT-11 is close enough to US neutral grey and a grey nose would have been useful in air superiority missions. I am convinced that the colors on the rear fuselage are dark green and olive drab as on the wreck.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Misos/Massimo,
the plane is a mystery, but IMHO, no need to make up fiction:

In general, except for commanders, VVS pilots did not have "personal" planes.  They flew what was available.  Actually mechanics were responsible for individual planes, not pilots...

Even if Sukhov prefered white discs over official VVS markings, would he really insist on white discs and risk a trouble?  Was Suhov authorized to conduct hypothetical camouflage tests??  All that in spring 1945 when war end was close?

"Flying Cyrcus" composed of pilots flying colorfull planes and fighting their own wars for score only was absolutelly unacceptable for VVS.  Distinctive, personal planes were actually extremelly rare in VVS combat regiments.

IMHO, photo and movie clip only show (i.e. confirm) that some P-39s retained white discs while in combat regiments and practically untill the end of the war.

IMHO, different colours seen on this plane are more likely related to structural modifications and repairs than to (unknown ???) camouflage experiments.

IMHO, only if completely overhauled, this plane would be overpainted in standard "Gray-Dark Gray Scheme".  In this case it would have had standard Red Stars also, not American Transit stars in white discs.

HTH,
KL

Hi,
could be that the plane was simply retouched instead of intentionally camouflaged, however part of repaintings are certainly dark green, while the closer soviet color that resembled to faded olive drab while being lighter was the light brown. This gives a strong indication for that color.
The choice to restore the white disk when this was partially covered by the reinforcing strut is strange indeed and seems to indicate the deliberate will to preserve it while the other planes of the unit had it deleted.
Regards
Massimo

Hi KL,
I think that rules/orders are one thing and real life is another thing. And just because of that all discussions here and on other forums about "How did that plane look?" have its own beauty ;)

You are right, I found that info also in Tabachenko's book at http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1367.msg10303#msg10303 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1367.msg10303#msg10303):
The particular plane was not strictly dedicated to the particular pilot. Any pilot of particular IAP (GIAP) could be ordered to fly any plane from the unit. Only person strictly related to the plane was named technician. He was responsible ?by his head? that aircraft and its armament were duly. His duty was to prepare the plane to fly, but only commander decided who will fly the plane.
Commander of the IAP (GIAP) could choose fly any plane from his unit, because all planes were ?his?.
   But there is also written that:
However, each pilot made effort to fly ?his? plane. But if some better pilot or pilot without plane at that moment (e.g. damaged plane, maintenance, etc.) had to fly, he could fly any plane ordered to him by the unit commander.

I recently focused only on 2 types - LaGG-3 (kit already built) and P-39 (planned to build) with following results:
1.) Mironov's LaGG-3
     - black star on fuselage while red one on the tail - not in line with valid rules:
       (http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lagg3/mironov/mironov3r.jpg)

2.) Galchenko's LaGG-3
    - nonstandard black/green scheme in summer 1942 instead of NKAP scheme,
    - national marking - red stars on fuselage and tail overpainted by personal marking - the cat (!!!) - not in line with valid rules, risk of a big trouble
      (http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lagg3/galachenko/galachenkoallm2cr.jpg)

3.) Rechkalov's P-39 (9th GIAP)
    - initials of his name (RGA) instead of standard board number (what is more personal?) - not in line with valid rules, risk of a big trouble:
      (http://img.wp.scn.ru/camms/ar/297/pics/1_3_b1.jpg)

4.) Glinka's P-39 (9th GIAP)
    - info from Igor Zlobin: "Concerning labeling/marking of the plane from a newsreel, it belongs to Dmitri Glinka from 100 GvIAP, note that the regiment belongs to 9th GvIAD and was supposed to have the symbol on the tail and spinner, but it had not!" - not in line with valid rules
    (http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/GlinkaDmitriyBorisovich_Kuban1943_v04.jpg)

5.) and of course Sukhov's P-39 (9th GIAP)
    - strange two color camouflage at least on the front fuselage,
    - Bell's transport version of SU National marking instead of standard red stars with white+red outline - not in line with valid rules:
      (http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/Suchov_P-39_01_zps9e17b86a.jpg)

6.) other P-39s in 9th GIAP
    - some had blue circles under red stars, some had overpainted them,
    - some had red stars on upper wings, others none,
    - not all planes from 100 IAP had white tail tips and spinners...

7.) I do not believe all that victory stars painted even on Yaks and LaGGs already in 41/42 represent let's say cumulative score achieved on particular plane. IMHO those victory stars represent personal victories of the pilot flying (mainly) "his" plane.

Simply at least mighty 9GIAP looked like the unit flying colorfull planes and fighting also for score (see a lot of victory stars on Rechlalov's, Klubov's, Glinka's etc. plane). Or we can see them as high profile individuals (number of 1HSU, some 2HSU, one 3HSU) willing to go a bit beyond the valid rules just to somehow distinguish themselfs, even risking troubles.
Pokryshkin seems to be exception. Due to some reasons he preffered to fly (or at least beeing photographed) in someone's else plane - 2x in Rechkalov's P-39, 1x in Sukov's P-39. Never photographed in "his" plane with visible board and/or serial number. :(

Regards,
     66misos

I respectfully disagree...  :)  If this was true, rules would not matter and it would be pointless to study some 70 years old rules.  If this was true you would be able to interpret colours however you like...  red or yellow Airacobra would be possible...

Why do you always start with OD Airacobras?  Because you know that Bell complied with USAAF regulations.  Have you ever assumed that Bell may have ignored USAAF requirements and deliver some Airacobras in colours that were more to the liking of girls who worked there?

When I said "Flying Cyrcus" i meant something like this:
(http://webzoom.freewebs.com/jagdgeschwader1/Rictofons-Flying-Circus.jpg)

Note that each Fokker is painted in different way to emphasize pilot's personality .  Also note how RFC biplanes are all painted same way in a colour which have totally different purpose.

Examples you have posted confirm that VVS/NKAP regulations were followed, not ignored:
- Mironov's and Galchenkov's LaGGs were both camouflaged in black-green Scheme to comply with June 1941 order.  Galchenkov's LaGG received temporary white during the winter.  Black cat is really irrelevant.

-Rechkalov's and Glinka's P-39 were in standard USAAF colours.  You know that Bell complied with rules (see above  ::)).  Both pilots were highly decorated aces, commanders and participated in many propaganda sessions - victory markings were not against VVS regulations, spec if they also fulfilled propaganda purposes.

HTH,
KL

Hi KL,
I appologize I was not precise enough - orders are one thing and real life is something different within given circumstancies. I am confident that nobody here (me included) considered such extremes like some yellow planes with pink hearts etc.  ;)
We all here have idea how NKAP scheme looked, how standard soviet national marking should look etc. It is upon everyones consideration whether given examples look like standard or something personalized.

Let's  come back to the topic. I think we both can agree that Sukhov's P-39 did not look like P-39 in standard USAF OD camo with standard soviet national marking from that days. And we try to describe that differences to paint reliable profile, to build accurate kit. :)
Regards,
      66misos

Hi all,
I think that, while the discussion on what the rules were is useful, the discussion if rules were respected is a waste of time. All the photos that are compatible with a rule are interpreted as such. When one discusses so much on a photo (a serie of photos, in this case) is because they show something strange that needs some credible explanation.
Misos, would you try to trace a drawing of plane n.50? I suggest to use multiple layers, so you can easily modify it if needed.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
is exactly what I intend to do.
However, before I would like to make and discuss additional screenshots to get better overall picture of Sukhov's plane.

Look at the bottom (3rd) picture:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/P-39_59Suchov_zps2217ebf1.jpg)
Outer halfs of the both upper wings look darker and/or more Matt than inner halfs. Is that matter of different colors, or only different level of reflection?

IMHO: From practical point of view I currently preffer more alternative of some lighter color sprayed over OD on sides of the front fuselage, than some darker color sprayed over OD on the top of the fuselage. The alternative "from sides" can be performed much more easily/conveniently than "from the top" and do not require masking canopy. But this alternative does not answer the question whether serial numbers on the tail were overpainted with the lighter color as front fuselage, or with the darker green as reinforcement. Or with original OD? I hope further discussions show what is (closer to) the truth.

Regards,
    66misos

Hi Misos, I suppose that the original OD was not available or appeared darker than the faded OD; else, the use of dark green on the rear fuselage would be not justified.
In my idea, the plane could be painted in three stages:
original OD then faded;
dark green on the modified parts (some repaintigs on other parts could have been on the same occasion)
light brown in a third time, at the unit, as a match for faded OD. Probably the inner side of the wings was repainted because worn for the access of the pilot and technicians.
About the tail, I would go with dark green over the factory numbers, I don't see traces of the lighter paint of the nose on it.
It's unclear if all these were intended as repaintings only, or this was an excuse to make an original camo without being persecuted by NKVD.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Missos/Massimo,
you should recognize that movie showing nose and photo showing rear fuselage were recorded on very different mediums - different colour sensitivity, different processing, probably different lighting conditions, etc.
So, different shades of gray may represent the same colour.

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/Suchov_P-39_01_zps9e17b86a.jpg)
(http://crimso.msk.ru/Images6/AS/AS91-1/4-1.jpg)

I would not use more than 2 colours:  original OD and soviet repairs. Soviet repairs (and USAF markings) are usually covered in light olive green i.e. 4BO or its equivalents. I would keep it simple.  ;D

I have to stress that modelers/profile artist usually over exaggerate fading effects.  The theory that paint significantly changes colour within 3 months is ridiculous.

HTH,
KL

Hi Konstantin,
I think that all the images on the movie are concordant enough to show three shades on the nose: the darker one on the spinner and the door (presumably the same dark green ofthe rear fuselage) , a medium shade on a blotch over the nose and behind the cockpit (the original faded OD) and a lighter one that could be both light brown or light green as on the other wreck.
Spinner and front could even be black.
Regards
Massimo

Radio compartment (Rear fuselage) most likely wasn't reinfoced.  Only tailfin was.
In that case colour behind No 50 and around white disk was original OD.

KL

Hi,

I found this in Sukhov's memoirs book Эскадрилья ведет бой:
"Машина доверена новенькая. Красивая, стремительная, нигде ни вмятинки, ни царапинки. Двигатель наработал всего лишь восемь часов. На фюзеляже только вчера мы вместе с механиком нарисовали ? разумеется, с помощью трафарета ? ярко-красную звезду. И рядом ? цифру ?50?. На этом самолете и с этим номером мне суждено было пройти войну до самого конца."

translated:
"Machine was new. Beautiful, impetuous, no scratches. The engine has gained only eight hours. Just yesterday we together with the mechanic painted - of course, using a stencil - a bright red star on the fuselage . ??? And next - the number "50." I was destined to be with this plane and with this number until the end of the war."

And now trust in memoirs...

     66misos

Hi Misos,
so this was a personal plane beloved by its pilot. Clearly the description don't fit to the plane as it appears on photos. It's likely that it was repainted in a second time after the modification, and the camouflage was made on request of the pilot, maybe with the excuse of repaintings.
Regards
Massimo

Hi,
I browsed Sukhov's book. I did not read it word by word so I could miss some detail. Anyhow, at least this is quite interesting:

Alexander Ivanovich came. Klubov's Aircraft mechanic Gregory Shevchuk reported him:
- Fighter is deformed, the fuselage is formed like "accordion", tip bent, torn flap holes ...
Klubov, in a wet tunic with salt stains, jumped off the plane and also surprisingly stares at his plane:
- Wow, how how twisted is overseas technology! I did not think that the plane will fail... said Klubov with smile.
Now it was clear why this type looked strangely - fuselage was deformed, antenna gone, the transmitter has moved from its place, the hellish congestion even cut the bolts.

End of august 1943.
Rechkalov was a bit unlucky. He hit "Ju-87", but when flying away from attacked plane, he pulled on the stick too much, very sharply and his "Cobra" deformed.

2nd september 1943, Sukhov attacking FW-189.
Distance is reduced. Seventy meters, fifty ... all six machine guns and cannon firing. The cabin smelled sour powder burning. Fireworks lights danced around an enemy plane cabin. Pieces flew around my plane.

The following day I did not fly, I helped to mechanic with my plane. Half of the work is done. In the morning, I arrived at the airport together with others, and Yakovenko reported: The plane is ready to fly!

...Ivan Mikhailovich again and again clean the glass with the cloth, removes drops of dew from the wings after the fresh night? He admires the shining "50"?

25th February 1945, Sukhov in dogfight.
My plane is hit. A fire erupted on my fighter... flame is not throbbing now, only a thin stream of smoke coming out from the holes on the plane...
A one hundred and fifty yards long  tripple track is plowed into soft ground. But the chassis survived. The aircraft stopped. I quickly open the right door, I want to see what damage is on the fighter. I'm still in the mud, inspecting plane. I counted seven holes from 20-mm shells. I left my plane in the care of aviation specialists...

It is already end of March 1945. We operate from the highway. Once our soldiers detained paratrooper disguised in civilian clothes. Group of the documentarists led by the cameramen Litvinchuk Alexandrov worked at the airport. Cameras started on, the scene was captured immediately - and now you can see it in the movie "Pokryshkin in the sky."

As you can see there were reasons for repair and repainting.
I hope you enjoy it.
     66misos

Hi Massimo,

Beloved plane? ??? ?  Suhov said that it was both his and planes fate to survive till the end of the war.  You tend to romanticize things, Suhov didn't mention any feelings.  ;D

May I ask what camouflage?  ??? ?
The plane was hit in the nose, ammunition drums were hit, fuel tank was perforated, wings burned...  Plane was repaired immediately...


Bravo Misos!!!
that's the way to go:  look for information, events, dates...  Memoirs are much better than guessing/assumptions.

Suhov and his plane:
(http://airaces.narod.ru/all4/suhov_k3.jpg)
(http://srv02.24au.ru/large/780/3902452.jpg)
(http://airaces.narod.ru/all4/suhov_k7.jpg)

Regards,
KL 

Hi Konstantin,
This means not only that they both survided up to the war's end, but that this was his personal plane. 'Beautiful, impetuous' clearly means that he liked the plane's visual impression.
:
No doubt that the plane was in uniform OD when new. But the photos, not one only, show clearly the disuniformity of the color. Interesting to know that they were repairs.
Cover drawings are nice, but hardly considerable as sources.
Regards
Massimo

Yes, now we know that those were repairs made in late February/March 1945.  Thanks to Misos...  :)

I posted cover to show the book - supposedly it's one of the best in the genre.  It was published in 1983, Suhov was 60 at that time.

KL

As explained before, term "Personal plane" did not exist in VVS regiments.  You may find how planes were assigned to pilots and who was responsible for planes in this tread, in posts posted only few days ago.

"Beloved plane" reminds me on Pilawskii...  ;D
It's pointless to draw far reaching conclusions from two descriptive words provided by Google translator.
Regards,
KL

I don't know if the term 'personal plane' existed in the VVS, but it certainly exists in English, and this is the description of a personal plane.

Don't compare me to Pilawskii, please.
If the words of Google are wrong, what is the right translation?

Regards
Massimo

Translation is OK, conclusion is wrong...

Regards,
KL

Of course, you are right as always, Konstantin!
means only that he occasionally flew that plane and them both survived the war.

And this means only that he had free time to waste to talk with mechanics, no relation between the repairs and his being grounded.

And here he is writing about a plane that he was flying ony casually, who cares of it.

Regards
Massimo

Hi KL,

I browsed again also Tabachenko's book to cross-check data. Sukhov mentioned 2 events which required repair/repainting:

1st damage - 2nd September 1943 (in Tabachenko's book and on airaces. narod.ru dated on 5th Sept 1943) - the first Sukhov's victory in 16GIAP. His P-39 was hit by pieces/debris from hit German plane. According Sukhov's memoirs the repair required one day. No mention about this damage on http://airaces.narod.ru/all4/suhov_kv.htm  (http://airaces.narod.ru/all4/suhov_kv.htm) or Tabachenko's book.

2nd damage -  25th February 1945 - Sukhov's P-39 hit by 20-mm shells, even flames appeared on the plane, but Sukhov managed to land is successfully.
The plane left in the care of aviation specialists. This is mentioned also in Tabachenko's as well as on airaces. narod.ru.

However, nowhere any specific info about reinforcement of Sukhov's P-39.

De jure there were no personal planes, but de facto "personal" planes existed. Except the cases already described some other are here:

- from Sukhov's book: "На борту одного из них знакомая цифра ? ?25?. Это Ивашко."  - translated: There is know number on the fuselage of one of those (P-39s) - "25" - this is Ivashko.
This means, that also Ivashko flew his "personal" plane - with board number "25" and this was known fact within the unit.

- from Tabachenko's book: Просто военные кинооператоры снимали прославленного авиационного полковника - комдива на фоне именно этого самолета (видимо, хотели показать в кадре множество звезд - отметок о воздушных побeдах)... Но на этой машине только иногда летал Алекцандр Покрышкин (но праву комдива все самолеты авиасоединения - его), а Григирий Речкалов как полновластный хозяин самолета, на нем не только успешно воевал, но и закончил воину.
translated:
Simply war documentarists filmed famous airforce colonel - division commander - in this plane (apparently they wanted to show a lot of little stars - symbols of victories)... But Alexandr Pokryshkin flew on this plane only occasionally (all planes in the unit "belongs" to division commander), and Grigorij Rechkalov as absolute master(?) of this aircraft, not only successfully fought on it, but also finished the war.

Simply, higher ranked or more successfully pilot then more probability to have "his personal" plane.

regards,
     66misos

I agree with this.  Exactly because of the above:

-  "Suhov's plane" is OK - Suhov himself refers to it as "my plane"
-  "Suhov's personal plane" is questionable/false - how many times Suhov mentions "personal plane"?

Don't write that my opinion is ridiculous, please.  If Suhov writes somewhere, or told to you that he didn't love that plane, then you are right, else this remains the idea that his words give to me.
You should respect the opinions of other people instead of questioning on one word.

Sorry, I changed my post.

It is OK, thank you.
Regards
Massimo

Hi KL,

I really do not want to argue about the word, it is not a point of this discussion. I understand that VVS terminology does not know term "someone's personal plane". On the other side pilots made effort to fly "their" planes, if outer circumstances did not prevent it. Therefore I called them "personal" planes.

Here are two examples when pilots did not reffer to their planes only as a "plane" or by type designation:

Czech forum http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/9462 (http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/9462):
1.) (Pokryshkin) himself called his plane softly "Belochka", both by manufacturer - Bell, and because it is a "gentle maiden name" as he comments it in his memoirs.

Comment from that forum:
Russian name "Běločka? is among Russian people also used in the meaning when a person dependent on alcohol is already in such a state, when sees white mice - "belochki".

The similarity with:
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/mig3/pokryshkin.html (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/mig3/pokryshkin.html)
He stopped flying ?somewhat? drunken after he missed a Messerschmitt with his guns because of his condition! But, this kind of behavior seems to be very common during wartime.
is purely coincidental.

2.) Popkov about "his" La-7 at http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=201.msg1581#msg1581 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=201.msg1581#msg1581)
"...На этом самолете я не знал поражений в течение длительного периода Великой Отечественной войны (с 1943 до победы). "Жеребчик" лихо вывозил из самых трудных периодов воздушных боев."
"...On this plane i have not been defeated during continuous period of Great Patriotic War(Since 1943 and until Victory). "Stallion" dashingly took me out of the hardest periods of dogfights."

IMHO in both cases above we can trace some positive emotional relation between pilot and "his" (not personal ;)) plane.

regards,
     66misos

Spasibochki Misos,  :)
The reason for this discussion is a theory that every VVS pilot had a "personal" plane.  Or, that every VVS plane had its pilot - check here  ;):
http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Markings/I16/type5/index.php

It simply didn't work that way;  in some regiments pilots would regularly flew the same plane, in others they didn't!
How planes were assigned was commander's discretion.  "Personal plane" or "Any Available Plane" depended on circumstances, pilot's experience, rank and awards.
I hope that this info is new, interesting and useful at least to some forum members.

If you want to call the plane "Sukhov's personal plane", your choice.  I don't see need for the word "personal"...
Anyway, the case should be closed.

Regards,
KL

Hi,

I compared statement from Sukhov's memoirs:
"Machine was new. Beautiful, impetuous, no scratches. The engine has gained only eight hours. Just yesterday we together with the mechanic painted - of course, using a stencil - a bright red star on the fuselage .  And next - the number "50." I was destined to be with this plane and with this number until the end of the war."

with info from Tabachenko's book:

1.) 16GIAP started on April with following P-39s (among others):
P-39D-2   S/N: 138424, 425
P-39K-1   S/N: 24445
P-39L-1   S/N: 24593, 601, 603

2.) May 15, 1943 ? six P-39N came, including Pokryshkin's 29004
May 17, 1943 ? P-39M-1 (24940) came, lost on May 29, 1943
May 27, 1943 ? P-39N  (28985) flew
May 30, 1943 ? P-39N (28995) lost.

3.) Due to high loses in 16GIAP Sukhov and twelve other pilots together with six P-39 from 84IAP were transferred to 16GIAP on May 30, 1943.
Serials of transferred planes are: 138423 (P-39D-2), 24446 (P-39K-1), 24590 (P-39L-1), 24600 (P-39L-1), 24688 (P-39L-1) and 24703 (P-39L-1). Compare them with the serials above.

According to the serials and tables on http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1367.msg10905#msg10905 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1367.msg10905#msg10905) I estimated that D-2 version was  produced sometimes in November 1941, e.g. on May 30 already 18 months old and those K-1 and L-1 were produced in July/August 1942, e.g. on May 30 some 10 months old. All that planes came to 16GIAP from 84IAP, not as a new planes from ZAP.

4.) Another P-39s came to 16GIAP after two weeks.

As we can see, 16GIAP used already M and N versions, when D-2, K-1 and L-1 came from 84IAP. So I am not sure whether we can consider those planes from 84IAP as new ones.

Moreover, I do not believe very much to this statement from Sukhov's memoirs: "...yesterday we together with the mechanic painted - of course, using a stencil - a bright red star on the fuselage...I was destined to be with this plane and with this number until the end of the war".
P-39 came to SU with:
1.) either Bell transport marking (red star in white circle), e.g. there was no need to paint red stars,
2.) or standard USAF marking, then red stars were necessary to paint and blue circles kept (or overpaint with green) - but then his (but not personal ;)) well known "50" with white circles should be a different plane. Or could be the same plane, but in that case Sukhov let paint white circles over former blue ones only in latter period during/after some overall repainting - see sharp contours of the white circle over sprayed two color background:
(http://crimso.msk.ru/Images6/AS/AS91-1/4-1.jpg)
Note, red star on Sukhov's plane does not fit the white circle such preciously as on the original Bell transport marking:
(http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/photogallery/p-39_fairbanks/ig_p-39_firbanks_40.jpg)
Too conspirative?  ;)

regards,
     66misos

Hi,
I am back again with Sukhov. I made 4 profiles, always color and b&w version of the same plane to better compare it with photos.

When looking at photos, I can see that upper rear part of the fuselage is lighter than repainting around white circle with red star while upper front part of the fuselage is darker than front/side fuselage. That is reason I decided for 3-color uppersurface painting.

I decided for repainting around white circle as well as serial number overpainting with A-24m.

For front fuselage I made 4 options. Color chips are taken from Massimo's page http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/color-table.html.

1.) front fuselage repainted with AMT-11
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_Sukhov/130412_P-39Suchov_v02_AMT-11_zps4875d064.jpg)

2.) front fuselage repainted with ALG-5 (original Massimo's chip):
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_Sukhov/130412_P-39Suchov_v02_ALG-5_zpsace57ace.jpg)

Front fuselage repanted by myself mixed ALG-5
3.) ALG-5 (50% A-14 + 50% ALG1 very left part from Massimo's chip), a bit more yellowish:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_Sukhov/130412_P-39Suchov_v02_ALG-5_3_zpsd35a71fe.jpg)

4.) ALG-5 (50% A-14 + 50% ALG1 very right part from Massimo's chip), a bit more greenish:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_Sukhov/130412_P-39Suchov_v02_ALG-5_1_zps45369daf.jpg)

Your opinions?

Regards,
     66misos

Hi Misos,
clearly, last two drawings reflect much better what we see on the photo. I have doubts that the light color is ALG-1, it could be the same unidentified light green of the photo of the wreck, or AMT-1/A-21m that is a fair match for faded olive drab. I would use a darker shade for the dark green repaintings.
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/Suchov_P-39_01_zps9e17b86a.jpg)
The spinner, propeller and part of the nose look repainted black.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
I made another variant - rear fuselage repainted with AMT-4 green and front side fuselage repainted by AMT-1 light grayish brown.
4BO gave almost the same result as A-24m from my previous variants.
A-21m Matt light yellowish brown gave a bit lighter result than AMT-1.

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_Sukhov/130414_P-39Suchov_v03_AMT-1_zpsb549e679.jpg)

You are right, the spinner, propeller and part of the nose look repainted by the same dark color - may be black. So I painted them by AMT-6 black here. I have to say that plane looks quite good.
However, red propeller spinner & red tail tip had to be used in 16th GIAP as divisional symbols since autumn 1943 by order. But on the other side, there are missing divisional symbols on Dmitri Glinka's P-39 from 100 GvIAP from the same 9th GvIAD. Seems again that everything is possible ???

If there is an option FSxxxx and AKAN on http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/color-table.html (http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/color-table.html), I use AKAN in all these profiles.

Regards,
     66misos

Hi Misos,
looks good. Will you make all 3 views?
Regards
Massimo

Hi Misos,
nice you are experimenting, but so far nothing conclusive.  And it veers into some highly hypothetical colours...

- How and why AMT-1 popped out?
- Why AMT-11 over standard American OD?
- Why ALG-5 and not ALG-1?  ALG-5 was usually used on steel/aluminum planes like Il-2.  ALG-1 was standard primer for dur-alluminium.
- Why bothering with Massimo's "new" and "old" ALG-5?  "New" is questionable, "old" is 100% hypothetical
- did you try the simplest combination you see on Buffalo museum P-39?  Dark green (whatever it is, say 3B) and olive green (4BO, or the same looking A-24m) for nose repairs.

Cheers,
KL

Hi Massimo,
thank you :)
I will do all 4 views. Firstly I have to do some corrections to the shapes of camouflage fields. But it will take some time. I also try to summarize thread about Pokryshkin into one article, plus I have Yak-1 on the shelf plus a lot of other duties... :(

Regards,
     66misos

Hi KL,
seems we made our posts in almost the same moment.
I think there is at least something conclusive:
1.)  3-color uppersurface painting - upper rear part of the fuselage is lighter than repainting around white circle with red star while upper front part of the fuselage is darker than front/side fuselage.
2.) the spinner, propeller and part of the nose look repainted by the same dark color.

And everything else is experiment to show what way is more possible than other. So let my try to answer your questions:

Variant trying to show Massimo's proposal that AMT-1 could be a good match to faded and weathered OD.

There is a profile taken from Russian web pages at the beginning of this thread showing fuselage front sides painted gray. Originally I thought it could be AMT-11 so I tried it. But it turned out to be too dark. I do not think it is the right choice.

ALG-5 as a possible option is from my discussion on http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_45341.html (http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_45341.html),
ALG-1 (Zinc-chrome yellowish) - here I would quote from Massimo's page http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/color-table.html  (http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/color-table.html): "primer for aluminium and magnesium alloys; usually covered by less visible colors. shade not standardized; it could appear as light yellow, reddish yellow or apple green". Massimo's page gives 3 options for ALG-1. All 3 color look too bright for camouflage. Even mixed with A-14 (50% to 50%) they give quite bright results, see my profiles above.

I do not know which ALG-5 you mean "new" and "old". In my profiles I used 3 options: one is direct ALG-5 - the last one from the "Primers" table on http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/color-table.html (http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/color-table.html), and two others are mixed ALG-5 - left and right sample from ALG-1 triple chip mixed with A-14 (50% to 50%).

I thought about it, but upper front part of the fuselage (most probably original OD) is darker than front side (e.g. repainted) of the fuselage. And all three colors (3B, 4BO, A-24m) are darker than original Olive Drab. That is why I try to find some color lighter than OD that could by logical choice for camouflage, not something like light yellow, reddish yellow or apple green.
Was 3B available in 1943 and latter?

Thank for your inputs.

Regards,
      66misos

Hi Misos,
your hypothesis look rational, in absence of sure informations.


Where do  you see 'new' and 'old' ALG-5 in my page? This is the chip and has one shade only.

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/chips/ALG1%2BA14primer.jpg)

Regards
Massimo

Sorry Massimo, I should have checked your page first.
Misos mentioned left and right part of the chip and for many colours you do have "new" and "old" as left and right.  I believe that my contribution to that table was significant - threads about paints and primers buried somewhere in this forum's past can prove this.  From the very start I didn't like that "old" and "new" approach.  But, the page is yours and you may keep it however you like it.
Regards,
KL

Hi,
I made a picture of collected screenshots showing Sukhov's P-39 from the right side:

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_Sukhov/130416_Sukhov_Leftside_zps21e57dee.jpg)

The pictures are not of a very good quality, but still they show:
- front sides of the fuselage are significantly lighter than mid/rear fuselage,
- nose and spinner are significantly darker (A-26m matt black?) than both repainted and original part of the front fuselage,
- repainting on the rear fuselage is not so evident, contract between original OD and overpainting (A-24m or 4BO?) is minimal here.
- yellow arrow points at probably propeller manufacturer logo.

Unfortunately I have not found this docu video in the better quality yet.

Regards,
     66misos

Hi,
here I tried to map photo and one sreenshot onto P-39 drawing:

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_Sukhov/130416_P-39Suchov_v03_vykresafoto_zps616751f1.jpg)

After looking at it for a while I started to think about only 2 green colors on fuselage and black nose+spinner :-\:
- lighter color could be original OD,
- darker color could be repainting, going from around the "50" and star through the area around exhaust pipes to the fuselage part just bellow canopy and further to the nose. Note the lighter area just behind the canopy here and on screenshots in my previous post.

Regards,
     66misos

Hi Misos,
I don't think this conclusion is right. One should compare the look of spots on the same photo, not joining photos from different sources that could  have different films, exposures and parameters of printing.  On the movie, we can't see on the rear fuselage anything that contrasts as on the nose. Besides the light parts have convex shape, and this suggests that they are the added on color.
Another thing: from the photo with the yellow arrow, it seems that only the roots of the prop blades were repainted black as the spinner. The tip looks with the original color, faded black or grey and the factory mark.
Regards
Massimo

IMHO, the spinner is not  black

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_Sukhov/130416_Sukhov_Leftside_zps21e57dee.jpg)

Regards,
KL

Hi,
here is another screenshot, showing Pokryshkin discuss his flight on Sukhov's P-39 just after the landing.
We can see here:
- propeller blade(s) were not black on their outer halfs, at least from the back (pilot) side (green arrow),
- repainted darker area on the fuselage (yellow arrow)
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_Sukhov/130415_Sukhov_10_zpsc9c8ebae.jpg)

This is the adapted profile I posted also on the scalemodels.ru, no response so far:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_Sukhov/130420_P-39Suchov_v04_zps62e99d8d.jpg)
Changes:
- colors for AII red, 4BO and A-21m are taken from AKAN web pages http://www.akan.ru/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.browse&category_id=39&Itemid=2 (http://www.akan.ru/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.browse&category_id=39&Itemid=2),
- for ALG-1 I took 3 different probes from http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=783.0 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=783.0):
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/SB%20Colours/RaatteenTie-SuomussalmiSBwing2.jpg)
and made and average (3 layers, 33% opacity of each). It is not ideal, but...
- propeller spinner originally red (AII Red) and silver-grey propeller blades overpainted partially with AMT-6 together with the fuselage nose,
- A-21m or AMT-1 Light Brown are the only standard camouflage paints (for planes) of relative bright color, enough bright for front fuselage repainting, although not as bright as even worn/dirty primer ALG-1.
- shape of the 4BO repainting is changed according to the repainting of the P-39 in Buffalo museum http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/photogallery/p39q/p39q_1.htm (http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/photogallery/p39q/p39q_1.htm)

Was 3B Dark Green from 1933-1938 used also in 1943-45?

     66misos

Hi Misos,
the work looks good.
About the spinner, I think that, if it was red, it was all red, because photos don't show any discontinuity on it suggesting two colors. They could have dismounted it before painting the black part on the nose, it's not time-consuming as to dismount the whole propeller.
I am not sure about the shade of green.
3B was not in use in 1945, however it's difficult to exclude it. Why wasn't A-24m convincing?
About the overposition method in Photoshop: I don't think that the overposition of 3 33% layes is a good method, both because it leaves the white background to influence the resulting shade, both because the resulting color depends on the order of overposition.
I would go with:
one color on the background;
overpose a 50% later of another one;
flatten into one layer.
put the third color at 33%;
flatten into one layer.
Please, try  and let me know if the result is different.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
let me anwer your question.

1.) regarding the spinner I am not decided. On the one side, screenshot with yellow arrow (same photo used on b&w collage) shows that blade root looks darker than spinner (could be just shadow) and on upper part of the spinner between blade and fuselage is a brighter area showing again that spinner could be of lighter color than fuselage nose and blade root. Or it can be just shinning.

On the other side, in all doc movies (not photos) is red spinner clearly distinguishable than Olive Drab fuselage and/or is bright. Nothing so dark as here.
Here are some examples from my thread abot Pokryshkin:

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/P-39_08-vrtulovykuzel-zfilmuoPokryskinovi.jpg) (http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/P-39_10_tribielepruzkynakridle.jpg)

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/Rechkalov_P-39.jpg)

(http://amyat.narod.ru/memo/pokryshkina_mk/10.jpg)

2.) I think A-24m is convincing. As was written before, color of 4BO, AMT-4 and A-24m paints should be very similar or even identical, at least when new. I did not find A-24m chip on the AKAN web page, only 4BO and AMT-4. And because of metal plane I used 4BO. Plus it was a (very little) bit darker than AMT-4.

3.) I played a bit with ALG-1 bright version in Photoshop. I have to say I made a mistake in my previos post or in my Photoshop, but the first layer had opacity 100%, not 33%. If all 3 layers have opacity 33% then result is still translucent.
Anyhow, I followed also exactly your method. When taking chips from the right side where ALG-1 is exposed:
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/SB%20Colours/RaatteenTie-SuomussalmiSBwing2.jpg)
th final result was almost the same. When taking chips from middle od left part, then result in greysh.
However, this KL wrote at http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=783.msg3945#msg3945 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=783.msg3945#msg3945)
Plus I am almost sure that what I see on my monitor is different from what you see on your monitor and all that is different from real paints.

Now I work on the left side of Sukhov's P-39. I will use another ALG-1, made according to your proposal. You will see that the difference is minimal.

Regards,
     66misos

Hi Misos,
I see some dark on the rear of the spinner, but it seems due to the moving prop blades whose roots were repainted black, the images are merged due to the quick rotation. 
About the red in the bw photos, you can compare the spinner to the star on the fuselage in the same photo/movie, they are under the same light (at least on the sides).
Regards
Massimo

Hi Misos,
IMHO two colours used on "Suhov's" P-39 are the same as two greens seen on Buffalo museum P-39 - Dark green for rear fuselage and yellowish olive green for nose/wing repairs.  Olive green is an oil paint - 4BO or A-24m.  I don't know what is dark green...  :-X

only two other paints that I would consider are ALG-1 and ALG-5.  For those You should reffer to "Albom nakrasok"

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/VVS%20colours/1948-scan-alg.jpg)

Note that ALG-1 chip is brown-yellow.  This is exactly the colour of the inside of engine cowlings of the Yak-3 which is displayed in the Musee delAir.  This Yak-3 was made in Dec 1944.

Regards,
KL    

Hi,
thanks for your inputs.

KL,
nice chip. However, IMHO such chips are usually made on white paper. IMHO those 3 colors are not realistic but a more beige as seen on what was probably white background. But very helpfull after some corrections in Photoshop.
Could you, please, post the link on that Yak to compare it and make some "average"?

Here is a nice article about what is and what is not Olive Drab http://www.militarymodelling.com/news/article/olive-drab/4536/ (http://www.militarymodelling.com/news/article/olive-drab/4536/) and this is a picture of different OD modeller paints:
(http://www.militarymodelling.com/sites/1/images/article_images_month/2009-03/colour%20chips.jpg)
with this conclusion:
Model Paint (Acrylics)           TT-C-595/FS-595 match                            Suitability for models
Poly Scale 505370               Lighter than wartime colour                         OK for wartime OD (including "scale effect")
Model Air (Vallejo) 043         Lighter, greyer than wartime colour               OK for wartime OD (including "scale effect")
Tamiya XF-62                     Best match for wartime colour                     Should be lightened a bit with ochre (for "scale effect")

Here are another examples from http://www.art-paints.com/Paints/Acrylic (http://www.art-paints.com/Paints/Acrylic)
Olive Drab (Tamiya)
(http://www.art-paints.com/Paints/Acrylic/Tamiya/Olive-Drab/Olive-Drab.gif)

Faded Olive Drab (Testor)
(http://www.art-paints.com/Paints/Acrylic/Testors/Model/Faded-Olive-Drab/Faded-Olive-Drab.gif)

Even if especially faded OD is not perfect match with reality, the shift to lighter brownish color is evident (as known also from other photos and reality).

In this context and if I do not know about photo of repainted rear fuselage with no. "50" and knowing only that docu video, then I would say that lighter color on the fuselage is original faded OD (delivered already in 1943) and darker color on the rear fuselage is let's say 4BO/AMT-4/A-24m, e.g. only 2-color uppersurface painting.
But that photo confuses me because it shows that upper rear part of the fuselage is lighter than repainting around white circle with red star while upper front part of the fuselage is darker than front/side fuselage. That is reason I decided for 3-color uppersurface painting.

So now I can see basically 2 alternatives (for fuselage originally painted OD, after 2 years strongly faded):
1.) both rear fuselage reinforcement and serial no. repanted by something darker than faded OD (i.e. 4BO/AMT-4/A-24m) and front fuselage repainted by something apparently brighter then faded OD - primer ALG-1 could be a good candidate here, although bright ALG-1 does not look very much like camouflage. Primer ALG-5 was known as "dark grey" and even light brown AMT-1/A-21m does not make contrast strong enough. Fuselage nose painted black, spinner (partially?) red, prop. blades partially black.

2.) bright front fuselage is original faded OD and middle and rear fuselage and tail repainted by something darker than faded OD (i.e. 4BO/AMT-4/A-24m or new OD from L-L deliveries?) and only reinforcement and serial no. repainted by something even darker than 4BO/AMT-4/A-24m/new OD - here paint of color like 3B would be a good candidate. And the same (very) dark green (3B?) used also for fuselage nose.

When considering way of field repaintings shown in the thread about Pokryshkin http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1367.msg10588#msg10588 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1367.msg10588#msg10588), VVS technicians seem to be focused more on functionality than on aesthetics. Why to waste the time and remove spinner and partially (although not very intentionally) overpaint propellers blades? Why not to do it fast all at once while paint and airbrush are on hand and together with fuselage nose partially overpaint (again, not very intentionally) also spinner and blades? Spinner on the screenshots is rotating so no details/boundaries are visible, everything is fuzzy. Even if spinner is black and red star is on its tip ;) Better photo would be very helpfull.

     66misos

Hi Misos,
interesting comparison of shades of OD. So, the one of Tamiya is the best?

About your proposals, the first one is by much the most likely. Other P-39s don't seem so light, besides we know that the plane was damaged and repaired on its nose, so it is the place where the paint is more likely new.
The lighter color is certainly the added one, in facts it covers the part of the door that is more subject to friction including the handle.
Chipping could remove only a small amount of color, so why make the look of the plane worse repainting a much wider surface with yellowish primer? In my idea, they tried to match the original color, so the likely candidates are the lighter green seen on the museum and the even closer Soviet 'light brown'.
Observing the photos, there could be a previous repainting with dark green in the zone of the door's hinges.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,

Yes in direct comparison with real objects but without scale effect probably too dark for small kits. Anyhow, I preffer one-to-one approach without scale effect.

Could be. But it could be also only same color but darker due to grease&dirt.
Your idea evokes another "option" in my head - partial reinforcement & S/N repainting (on photo) plus some repainting around the door is from one, earlier period and overall rear fuselage and tail (on doc movie) is from another, latter period.

On my monitor both light brown AMT-1 and A-21m are not contrast enough on the faded OD which is more brown than green.
I do not believe very much to bright yellow/green or yellow/orange ALG-1 used as a camo color.

If I remember correctly nobody here (on sovietwarplanes) was able to clearly (by name & number) identify those light gey/green seen on the museum in Finland. It looks more like something "custom-mixed". And also primer ALG-5 is only a mix of primer ALG-1 and paint A-14.
So finally that light color on the front fuselage could be some mix of ALG-1 and ... then it could be almost anything (KL, I apologize ;))

    66misos

White paper???
Photo shows chips from 1948 ?Albom Nakrasok? ? its paper is yellowish ? quite normal for a book printed 65 years ago.

You have to believe me:  1944 ALG-1 is very similar to Albom's chip.  I know this because I saw them both.  If you want better photos, send me PM.



I am not an expert on OD, but I saw P-39 in Tusula.  Most of the chips you refer to are way off.  OD is brown with slight greenish tinge.
I am trying to understand what colours represent, I don?t rely on chips too much;  Olive Drab is all about mud ? it was a colour developed for trench war.  Soviet 4BO is all about chlorophyll.  4BO is significantly greener and yellower than American OD.  I really can?t understand your explanation for rear fuselage modifications painted in 4BO.

Cheers,
KL   

Hi KL,
thank for comment.
If it is real photo from 65 years old book, then I have no problem to accept relative beige background as an old paper. I saw such paper in books a lot of time. However, human eye see and brain interprets according to the experiences. So if one put sheet of purely white paper under yellow, or red or blue or etc. lamp, he always interprets is white. Not camera. That is why there is "white balance" feature which can compensates color of surrounding light. I'm sure everybody knows difference between photo of some family event made on evening (standard interior lamps) without camera flash ("warm" yellow picture) and with camera flash ("cold" blue picture").

I have no problem with the fact that ALG-1 could be also of nice yellow color, I already know from you that:
I have problem with painting war time plane with bright brown/yellow or orange color which has more de-masking than masking effect. Although it could look nice and attractive on the kit.

I agree that:
This is quote from mentioned article: "The World War I Quartermaster Olive Drab was described by Charles Lemons, curator of the Patton Museum at Fort Knox, as the colour of pig slop, that is a very muddy olive brown...The pigments used to mix Olive Drab were very simple: black and ochre."
Yes, all that chips tend to be too greenish. But again it could be matter of lighting during photosession and/or scanning setup etc.

4BO, AMT-4 and A-24m should look very similar, at least when new and they are darker than faded OD. And on b&w picture there is no big contrast between faded OD a that darker color. Difference is visible on the (overexposed or high contrast) photo but not on the low contrast docu movie.
For colors I took reference from AKAN web page. I did not find A-24m there, so I used 4BO which had to/could look the same.
IMHO, 3B Dark Green or AII Green look better, but were they used still in 1944?
A-19 Green, somewhere referenced as "grass green" looks too bright.
I preffer using defined colors, "custom mix" is the last option.

regards,
     66misos

Hi KL,

here is a picture in both b&w and color version where I applied your recommendations:
- front fuselage repainting is ALG-1 from your chip (Albom Nakrasok),
- rear fuselage repainting is dark green 3B taken from AKAN page,
- spinner is only red, color taken from AKAN page.

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_Sukhov/130425_P-39SuchovRIGHT_v04-prerobeneskvrny_KL_zps15dcf087.jpg)

That dark green 3B looks too dark and contrast in both b&w and color version. Your ALG-1 from Albom Nakrasok has acceptable contrast in b&w version and I have to admit that it does not look too bright in color version as I was afraid :)

Regards,
     66misos

Hi Guys  :D

I have a very interesting link for lend lease P-39. Is a recovery of a P39Q. A couple of modifications were made to reinforce the body. Also the paintjob is intresting, especially the green overspray.

http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/sheppard/p39/

I am very bad with computers, i hope it works... ::)

Regards,

Remco

Hi Remco,

I know that link, both from here and from russian forum scalemodels.ru. Refferences are at the beginning of this thread.
Anyhow, thank you for your effort  ;)

      66misos

Very good, you are making progress now!  :)

Front fuselage looks very interesting.  Your ALG-1 is very close to the real thing.  This brown ALG-1 is also preserved on some Il-2 wings found in the tundra - some authors (namely Pilawskii  ;) ) confused this primer with camouflage paints and called it AII Brown, AMT-1 etc  ;D.

IMHO, AKAN 3B is questionable!  It's based on a dark gray-green re-painting on a small TB-3 fragment from Finland.  I wouldn?t rely on a re-painting (which could be ?whatever was handy?).

I think that 3B was really the darker ?protective? green used to paint SSh-36 helmets.  Fortunately many of those are preserved!  Following is the one from the Winter War Museum

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/IMG_1328_zps4590f4ac.jpg)

But, for the rear fuselage modifications, I would use dark green from the Buffalo museum P-39?

Cheers,
KL

Hi Misos, hi all,
I am not too convinced by the last profile for some reasons:
we have said that it was a repair, then the plane was delivered to the pilot ready for fly and even for a movie; so, the paint should match much better the base color;
there is not any indication that zinc chromate primer was acceptable as an outside/camo color, else, Americans could have spared their olive drab and Soviets their greens, greys and browns;
I don't know any wreck or exhibit showing repairs with ALG-1 over the camo colors, but always under them;
even admitting that it could be ALG-1, any chip is unuseful, because it was not standardized and could be of any color between apple green, yellow and red brown.


The site of Akanihin writes that their digital chips can be misleading if utilized to match accurately a color. So, the lower contrast of their A-21 digital chip on faded olive drab could be misleading too.
For what I have seen, it looks that the AMT-1/A-21 could appear as a light color, particularly if new; on the rear fuselage of Shturmoviks it appears lighter than on the front, for some unclear reason, and can well match what we see on the movie.
About the dark green, I think always that it was AMT-4/A-24m, their standard green that is anyway darker than faded OD. For what I know, 3B was out of use since 1940 in the army. How many years can a can of paint last?
Regards
Massimo

Hi all,  :)

Two things should be clear in the case of this particular P-39:

1.  Plane is not camouflaged.  If it was, it would have been painted in 2-gray camouflage scheme like other VVS fighters.  Word "camouflage" has a certain meaning in Soviet military terminology; what we see on this P-39 doesn't conform with the meaning of the word "camouflage".

2.  There was no attempt to match colour of repairs with the original colour.  If the difference in colours is recorded on the low sensitivity B/W film, the difference in colours was significant.  We know from preserved P-39s that Soviet paints applied on modifications or to cover markings usually did not match original American colours.  In this case, VVS technicians were concerned only with the protection against corrosion.

Cheers,
KL  

Hi KL,
I made progress thanks to our common effort :) Yours as well others inputs are more than welcome.

That is exactly what I am trying to do. Only problem is what paint is that dark green ???

As you wrote here http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1515.msg11134#msg11134 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1515.msg11134#msg11134):

For those modified by Bell (e.g.late Q versions) one these colors could be option http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1515.msg11130#msg11130 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1515.msg11130#msg11130):
(http://s3.postimage.org/vfsclichv/82039_82015_83001_82004.jpg)

HOWEVER, according to the my post http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1515.msg11250#msg11250 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1515.msg11250#msg11250) Sukhov's plane could be most probably L or N version, but definitely not late Q version. It means that rear fuselage reinforcement was done by Soviets.
And in this case there is already several time asked the same "question for milion" - what is that dark color?
We already found that:
- 3B is questionable,
- AII Green probably same as 3B (no comment so far),
- AMT-4 and 4BO not very probable, rather A-24m, although for modellers the color of all these 3 paints could be the same,
- A-19 "grass" green is too bright.
I do not know about any other paint used by VVS during WWII, except different "custom-mixes".
So IMHO the hotest candidate is A-24m for Sukhov's L or N version. But its color is far from that dark green on P-39 in Buffalo museum, which is Q versios.

Massimo,
although this yellow/brown ALG-1 looks interestingly, I somehow tend to preffer paint, not primer. Except AMT-1 and A-21m there was no other paint that was brighter than faded OD and could be used as camouflage e.g. masking, not de-masking color for uppersurface.

Regards,
     66misos

See my previous post!  Paints applied to cover modifications and repairs were not camouflage paints.  VVS technicians were concerned with corrosion, not with camouflage.  Forget AMT-1, AII Z, AMT-11 - wrong type of paints (nitro paints for fabric) + camouflage paints.

Dark green could be any oil paint.
3B was used as a primer for tanks at the begining of GPW, maybe later.
In 1945 camouflage wasn't a priority, check USAAF planes.

It's good to know that in factories, new planes were test flown before they were camouflaged.

Cheers,
KL

Hi,
Some prototypes, for example many Sukhois, fly in zinc chromate and grey 'patch'. Production planes were painted on the line.
Regards
Massimo

Hi,

Are you sure? It was always like that?
Regards,
KL

Hi KL,

Are you sure? It was always like that?

(http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/la5/chkalov/2linesrr.jpg)

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/tu-2/line.jpg)

regards,
    66misos

your LaGG-3s were photographed in 1943, Tu-2s even later.  Earlier, planes were flown before the final painting.

when planes were painted depended on factory too.
(http://www.razlib.ru/transport_i_aviacija/aviacija_i_vremja_2009_06/pic_21.jpg)

Regards,
KL

Hi KL,

thanks for explanation. It looks again that possible was this and that... ;)
And it also reminded me discussion about "personal" painting on planes (pictures, victory marks, P-39 national marking etc.) - it depended also on unit/commander.

Back to Sukhov's P-39.

1.) Propeller
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_Sukhov/130426_Sukhov_propeller_zps66d1772e.jpg)
- spinner is dark but seems to be not so dark as fuselage nose,
- red star on fuselage from the same film/shot is also very dark
- propeller blades are significantly darker at their roots or inner halfs than on their outer halfs.
This could confirm already posted conclusion that:
- whole spinner was red,
- originally silver/grey blades (without yellow tips) were repainted black on their inner halfs, up to Aeroproduct logo.

2.) Upper wings
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_Sukhov/130426_Sukhov_rearfuselage_zps4f47b2a8.jpg)
and
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/P-39_59Suchov_zps2217ebf1.jpg)

when compared with other P-39 during very similar weather and from very similar angle:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/P-39_58b_zps13d1a724.jpg)

it seems that on Sukhov's P-39
- inner half of the upper wings is repainted by brighter color, going almost up to the middle fuselage,
- original OD is doing a bit bellow exhaust pipes, but not on the wing. Something like here:
(http://www.airaces.narod.ru/all4/suhov_k4.jpg)

Regards,
     66misos

Early Migs of late 1940/41 were surely painted before the final assembly, in facts they show different greens on different parts. Probably the black bands were painted after the assembly, I don't know if after flown, but I don't think.  There is a photo of a LaGG-3 with primers, but it's still in the building and nothing suggests that it was already flown. Please, suggest a type and a factory where you think that planes were flown still finished in primiers.
Regards
Massimo

Hi,
IMHO all repainting was done by Soviets, see my post http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1515.msg12046#msg12046 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1515.msg12046#msg12046) so there were used (standard) VVS paints.

As KL wrote in his post http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1515.msg12049#msg12049 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1515.msg12049#msg12049):

There left 2 options for green oil paints used in VVS - 4BO and the same looking A-24m. AMT-4 was not oil but had to have also the same looking. So modeller painting plastic kit has two options for darker green directly from AKAN - 4BO and AMT-4.

However, still no idea what modeller paint use for yellow/brown ALG-1. Said strictly aesthetically, I would preffer ALG-1 in its yellow/green version rather than this yellow/brown. It reminds me those Cobras from Africa, or even worse, those old green-brown pictures of VVS planes :(

Regards,
     66misos

Hi Misos,
I think it's a nice artwork, but I am always skeptical on the identification of the lighter color as ALG-1. The brown repainting is extended up to the star on the left side on the fuselage, and the white disk was masked or repainted; this means that the repainting was intended as definitive, not temporary.  Should Soviets accept zinc chromate as camo color, they didn't need all other ones.
Regards
Massimo

[deleted]

Hi,
let me summarize events in the chronological order that could lead to repainting of Sukhov's P-39:

1.) the first damage - 2nd or 5th September 1943
Sukhov's P-39 was hit by pieces/debris from hit German plane.

2.) Reinforcement of the rear fuselage
Bell engineers went to Soviet Union to collect evidence in late fall 1943.
Pilots in service units were killed/injured in stall accidents in 1944.  Official instructions regarding C.G. limits were issued in spring 1944.

Only P-39Q-25 and P-39Q-30 had tails modified at the factory. Those were two last P-39 versions in production P-39Q-25 had 4-blade propeller, very distinctive sub-type. 1100 out of 4905 P-39Q made, had tails modified by Bell. Remaining P-39s were modified by Soviets.

Despite the valid rules/orders defining appearance of Soviet national marking, Sukhov let either mask (=protect) original marking or repaint it in original way. Note red star on the right side of the fuselage is bit smaller than white circle, it does not fit it so precisely as on the original "Bell" marking.

3.) the second damage - 25th February 1945
Sukhov's P-39 was hit. A fire erupted on fighter... flame is not throbbing now, only a thin stream of smoke coming out from the holes on the plane... seven holes from 20-mm shells. Plane left in the care of aviation specialists...
The lighter repainting on the left side of the fuselage is extended up to the star and no."50". Again, despite the valid rules/orders defining appearance of Soviet national marking, Sukhov let either mask (=protect) original marking or repaint it in original "Bell" way.

End of March 1945.
Pokryshkin filmed in Sukhov's P-39 during highway take off and landing.

We can see that the first damage repair&repainting (front fuselage/propeller/wing leading edges ) and reinforcement with another repainting were done when the end of the war was not visible in the close future. In this case the standard camouflage is quite probable.
The second damage repair&repainting done 2-3 months before the end of the war. We know that now. But did also they know that war will last only 2-3 months? If no, standard camouflage color seems to be again quite probable. If yes, why to bother with anti corrosion protection?

What were properties of the primer? Was primer expected to resist the environmental and operational conditions (snow, rain, dust, grease, abrasion etc.)?

If primer instead of camouflage paint was used on the upper surfaces, one could expect it also on the under surface.
Here is a screenshot showing Pokryshkin checking bomb fitting under Sukhov's P-39 and two other P-39 to compare demarcation line between OD and median grey on the wing and fuselage:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_Sukhov/130415_Sukhov_11c_zpsd60c86a9.jpg)

These screenshots show wing contoures (red line) and demarcation line (yellow dotted line) between darker color on the outer half of the underwing and lighter color on the inner half:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_Sukhov/130415_Sukhov_11d_zps5280da1a.jpg)
Yellow/brown ALG-1 could look lighter than faded OD. However, is that primer also significantly brighter/glossier than medium grey? Or is inner half of the wing painted with blue AMT-7 or its oil equivalent?

regards,
     66misos

Hi Misos,
I don't think that they flew planes with yellowish undersurfaces during the war, they could have been mismatched for German planes by their own AA.
In my opinion, any repainting on the undersurfaces was made with blue or grey paints.

Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
IMHO that brighter inner half of the underwings is not optical illusion but repainting - it is too regular and in the "right" position. In that case it could be blue AMT-7 or its oil equivalent A-28m, same like paint for dark blue circles of USAF national marking repainting known from other L-L planes from USA.
Grey AMT-11 is too dark, AMT-12 and oil A-32m even darker.

In this context, when underwings seems to be partially repainted by standard camouflage color, IMHO also upperwings and fuselage was not only primed but also painted with standard camouflage color - only options are light brown AMT-1 or oil A-21m.

regards,
     66misos

movie doesn't show a plane taking off and returning from a combat mission!  It was a test flight - Pokrishkin flew this plane to test additional bomb pilons (probably taken from a late P-39Q which normaly had fuselage bomb pilons).  This modification was probably related to repairs after forced landing - former "Suhov's" plane was repaired and modified into a fighter-bomber.

IMHO, this plane might have been repainted same day after the sucessfull test flight.  In that case repairs were primed first and that is what we see in the movie.

Regards,
KL

Intersting discussion. The result is airacobra captured straight from the candy box.   

Hi Saivila,

thanx for your post. I agree with you that after all repaintings that P-39 would look like flying circus. That is why I more and more abandon idea of repainting only by primer.
To make surface looking like original would require to use original US paints. As was written previously VVS used soviet paints for all kinds of repainting on different L-L planes.
So in this case, even if painted with standard camo paints and not only primer, it points on 5 basic colors: original USAF Olive Drab and Medium Grey and VVS (dark) green for reinforcement repainting, some brighter than faded OD (only light brown available) on fuselage and seems also on the inner halfs of upperwings and some brighter than MG (only bluegray available) on underwings. Plus black or dark green on the nose, plus red spinner and tail tip, plus red stars in white circles. :o
Really colorfull plane, could look nice on color film... Not surprising that Pokryshkin flew that plane when film makers from Moskow were there ;)

     66misos

Hello .

If you ask me. This" Airacobra no 50" is just camouflaged in Russia and perhaps fixed a little, but i'm afraid i can't or even want
to prove it. Perhaps they really paint it for the coloured Propaganda movie.  Nobody knows it for sure. But here is another story.

I remember that someone from IPMS Finland has count the shades of the Airacobra no " 26" on now AA museum Finland, and wrote an atricle from this. "There was tens of shades, from Grass green to pure Brown." "You should consider that when you paint your model. Of course everything depends on the scale."  Something like this.

Are these many green shades on "26" only due for ageing, or perhaps lots of smaller overpaintings has done decades ago,
with varying quality of colours,- like was the practice on Mosvitsh Cars- , or are they even exist?
Basicly not many overpaings has done during the restoration, but forexample the leading edge is  redone. And the whole wing, as you might know, is taken from another plane.



Lots of pics available on the net  These photos  could be one of the best as a reference .Judge yourself .  

http://bell.pictures.fi/kuvat/Aviation/Museums/Ilmatorjunta+museo/P-39/

Regards Saivila

Hi Saivila,

thanx for post. I know that link, those pictures circulated here on this web page a lot of time. Unfortunately real colors are distorted due to lighting conditions and camera flash. Anyhow, together with P-39 in Bell museum it shows that repainting was done only for particular purpose, without any aesthetics and with available paints, although not matching original colors.
This museum piece is a composition of two P-39Q Cobras: 44-2092 (42092) "20" corresponding to 103 GIAP and 44-2664 (42664) "26" corresponding to 103 GIAP, 2GIAK of Leningrad PVO.

(http://bell.pictures.fi/kuvat/Aviation/Museums/Ilmatorjunta%20museo/P-39/548U3080.jpg?img=thumb280nocrop&hash=fd345))
Here we can see 2 repaintings - the 1st one (quite carefull and darker than OD) to change standard USAF national marking to Bell "transport" marking and the 2nd one already in SU.

(http://bell.pictures.fi/kuvat/Aviation/Museums/Ilmatorjunta%20museo/P-39/548U3083.jpg?img=thumb280nocrop&hash=38323))    (http://bell.pictures.fi/kuvat/Aviation/Museums/Ilmatorjunta%20museo/P-39/548U3100.jpg?img=thumb280nocrop&hash=e0668))
Here, IMHO, original US darker repainting is covered by another repainting brighter than OD and far not so carefull (bright yellow-green primer or faded oil light brown A-21m?) and finally 3rd repainting to change Bell "transport" marking to soviet red stars (oil green A-19 or A-24m?)

(http://bell.pictures.fi/kuvat/Aviation/Museums/Ilmatorjunta%20museo/P-39/548U3049.jpg?img=thumb280nocrop&hash=5c1d2)).
Soviet blue (oil A-18?) on undrerwings.

(http://bell.pictures.fi/kuvat/Aviation/Museums/Ilmatorjunta%20museo/P-39/548U3143.jpg?img=thumb280nocrop&hash=ebed5))
Dark repainting near digits "26" is the color different from the green one used on the red stars. So yes, also this Cobra is quite colorfull, even after decades. And how it could be when all those repaintings were fresh... Like those old Moskvich Cars ;)
It is interesting how faded is OD. Soviet paints look more resistant.

Regards,
     66misos

Yes. Something like that, If you want so.  Except that the disks under a stars, are painted on Finnish enamels during the restoration.
Even if they look like original. Yes real colours are distorted by Brownish lightning but the real thing is not far away.
I got a whole bunch of restoration before/ after pics from IPMS magazine, but they are lost.  The discs were white when
aircrafts were on storage. But i have allso seen the wartime pic where you can see three pair of AC wings and disks are not white.
One of those pairs is under this museum aircraft today.
Regards Saivila

Hi Saivila,
thanks for explanation. I also saw (wartime?) photo showing that P-39 without engine and with removed wing. A even posted it somewhere here, but I cannot find it now >:(
So no preserved soviet paints :'(
It is interesting when compared to http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1459.0 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1459.0):

What I want in this case is to get most probable picture of Sukhov's plane when appeared on the movie. Unfortunately, until some written confirmation from some maintenance/service book will be provided or some good quality color photo will appears everything else is just speculation approaching more or less to reality.
I want to put as much as possible info and comments onto one pile to help me and other modellers to make their final decisions. I really do not like Murphy's Law in modelling, e.g. immediately after the kit is finished the new info disputing chosen camo & marking appears. Although it happens (to me) again and again ;)

regards,
     66misos

Hi all,

Magazine in question is IPMS-Mallari 134-135 dated 2-3/2000. There are plenty of  pictures of the Airacobra, a couple of pre restoration and some during restoration pictures.

In pre restoration pictures over painting of the fuselage circles has been almost totally wearied away but still visible. Lady, who wrote the article says that she counted seven (7) different hues from a single picture of the plane. Wings are from another aircraft.

At least 2009 there has been a good stock of this number: http://www.ipmsfinland.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=18:varastotilanne&catid=14:yleist&Itemid=36

Cheers,

AaCee

Hi,
this should be that photo
(http://s4.postimg.org/6sqtwc2gt/image.jpg)
No white discs on the wings.

     66misos

HI. Yes this is the IPMS magazine that i was talkin about. And about this photo, send by Misos. It's the one
of these i was talkin about.  Released at least on Keskinen/ Stenmans "Russian Fighters". Old print only.
If i get that IPMS magazine i can post some pics.  Allso some colour pics from this AC on storage, can be found
on old "Mobilisti" magazine from 1980s. But this magazine could be very hard to find.

Regards Saivila

Hi all,
a photo from Tapani:
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lendlease/p-39/26.jpg)
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo and Tapani,

thanx for color picture. I have to admit that b&w picture shows P-39 no. "20" and "25" and color photo shows no. "26". So wings from "20" were without white discs under red stars and fuselage from "26" was with white discs.
White color and reflection on the disk looks different from color and reflection of digits 26. Does that mean that digits 26 were silver?
Red star in the white disc has outline darker than white and that outline exceeds circle boundaries. It looks like there was red star with white outline (like that one on the wings) and the white disc was added latter. ???

regards,
     66misos

Hi Misos and all,

Wings of the plane are from 44-3225 which was # 25. Source: Central-Finland Aviation Museum booklet of their museum planes.

These wings have over painted white backgrounds of the roundels.

# 26 is definitely silver. Stars are not outlined with white but with a difficult to explain silverish colour. Painting were done in following order<: standard Bell-practice red stars on white circles and after delivery silver and red edges added as well as dark green over painting of the white circle except underside which is greyish green. This is based seeing this plane several times.

Cheers,

AaCee

Hi AaCee,

Is that greish green on underwings primer ALG-5, which was called also grey-green, heavily weatheted and scratched now?

    66misos

Hi.
That white disk on this very photo, LOOKS LIKE that it's made of paper or something like that. Could be somekind of
temporary marking, especially cause the star looks like it's bordered on yellow. I have no any idea why.
I don't believe that this aircraft never flied in this suit. My mate told me that the white disk was overpainted
on artists oil colours using brush.

Regards Saivila

Hi Saivila,
the star on this photo, you mean? For what I see, there is a lot of yellow around the plane. I don't know the exact colors of that place where the plane was photographed, but it ?s possible that this is due to a yellow dominance of the photo, or to the yellowish light reflected by the surroundings.
Regards
Massimo

You are right. Lets say Colour pic with limited palette.

Regards Saivila

Hi,
I want something that does not look like taken from candy box. Also P-39 even painted with OD and several different greens looks like camouflaged, not just protected against corrosion.
So woul replaced primer ALG-1 by standard camouflage colors - nitro and oil alternatives for both upper surface and underwings and put them all into one picture to better see difference for discussion purpose.
I checked colors from Albom Nakrasok. But they are too dark (on those pictures I have) and I did not want to do any color correction without defined white/grey/black reference.
So I took all VVS colors from AKAN page. Although those AKAN chips do not represent 100% real colors, the give at least idea how it could look while the plane appears camouflaged and not such de-masked as with primer ALG-1.
Plus I took new darker color for Neutral Grey from chips found on Internet. According to a lot of discussions NG was quite dark, on b&w photos could look sometines even darker than faded OD.

Your comments are welcome.

    66misos

Hi Misos,
the drawing looks credible enough, at the best of our present knowledges. I would make the brown a bit lighter to increase the contrast as on the photo.
About A-18, I would exclude it because it was out of use since 1941.  AMT-7 is possible, as A-28m or maybe AMT-11, that could be a match for the neutral grey. I would extend the repainting to the central section of the fuselage, if it's true that it was modified.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Misos,
I agree with Massimo:  There is not enough contrast between your OD and AMT-1.  Two colours seen in the movie are more contrasting.  For me, this would be enough to exclude AMT-1 and A-21m.

IMHO, more you hypothesize, more subjective your conclusions are... And your interpretation becomes more debatable.

Regards,
KL

Hi,
it looks like looking for answers by exclusion ;)
IMHO, plane should looks at least partially camouflaged, not de-masked. I am trying to find standard VVS paint colors rather than some custom mix from anything on hand. However, there are not many options when looking at the paints portfolio for VVS.

1.) something slightly brigter than OD for upper surface:
- color of primer ALG-1 was not codyfied, so it coud be anything between bright yellow-green through yellow-orange (example in Albom Nakrasok) to dark yellow-brown, so it could be brighter, almost same or darker than faded OD,
- primer ALG-5 not applicable for P-39, plus it is darker than faded OD,
- A-19f grass green (upper surfaces of metal planes Il-2, Pe-2, Il-4..., June 1940 -July 1941) already not in use at that time,
- no other light green,
- no light grey (even AMT-11 is darker than faded OD),
- only option seems to be oil light brown A-21m  which looks brighter than nitrocel. AMT-1.

2.) something slightly darker than faded OD for reinforcement repainting:
- dark green 3B already not used at that time,
- AII Green not applicable and used at that time,
- 4BO not usually used for planes,
- no other VVS dark green available,
- possible alternatives AMT-4 and A-24m

3.) something brighter than faded/dirty Neutral Grey for under surface:
- yellow-green through yellow-orange to dark yellow-brown primer ALG-1 would make plane contrast like target for shooting practising,
- neither relative dark AMT-11 nor AMT-7 is significantly brighter than faded NG as visible at least on right under wing,
- blue A-18 already not in use at that time,
- oil matt greyish blue A-28m  seems to be only option.

Did I miss any color? ???

      66misos

Hi Misos,
yes, you have missed the possibility that the paint was not in VVS inventory.
About the undersurface, I don't know if the new color is lighter than NG, the photo seems to show a reflection on a semigloss (or semimatt) freshly painted surface, in fact the lightness is interrupted where the gear door breaks the reflection of the sunny background. This suggests an AMT paint, because A-28m was very matt.
In absence of other informations, it's impossible to make better. I suggest to complete the profile as it is, you could always change it if any new document should emerge.
I'm sure that there are lots of other interesting Airacobras to draw.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,

when considering paints outside VVS inventory, what could be their source?

1.) Foreign paints?

2.) Red Army paints?
I am far from being an expert for Red Army paints. I browsed AKAN page and found following possibilities for Red Army 1939-195x field camouflage (cars, tanks, artilery, etc.):

1.) 63017  Green             (http://akan.ru/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/resized/___II___.________50c1faf753687_90x90.jpg)   (in some districts for for camouflage spots or full color)

2.) 63020  4BO               (http://akan.ru/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/resized/4________________50c1fb0d7913a_90x90.jpg)

3.) 63022  Light Green     (http://akan.ru/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/resized/63022.jpg50cf0b49a8409_53x90.jpg)

4.) 63081  Yellow-Green   (http://akan.ru/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/resized/_________________50cf0d0fbd321_90x90.jpg)

5.) 63082  Sand              (http://akan.ru/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/resized/_________________50fd41983077b_90x90.jpg)

6.) 63083  Brown             (http://akan.ru/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/resized/_________________50fd41dd20cca_90x90.jpg)

7.) 63084  Brown-Green    (http://akan.ru/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/resized/_________________50fd421a62c05_90x90.jpg)

Regards,
     66misos

Hi Misos,
maybe German? They were in a German airfield, I think.
However, there is no positive information on this. I suggest to complete the drawing and pass to another one.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,

but if I make faded OD a bit darker, then contrast between OD and A-21m would be better ;)
Plus I will check again that underwings brighter color in doc film. It is quite evident at least under right wing.

Look at the front view P-47D photo:
(http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc295/noirussini/Planes/P47D%20Thunderbolt%20in%20soviet%20service/P-47%20reference%20pictures/imageff.jpg)
I know, it is different plane from different time and conditions, but repainting by apparently brighter color is visible on the left underwing under the star. IMHO relatively dark AMT-7 does not make such a big contract on also relatively dark Neutral Grey.

     66misos

Hi Massimo,

here is a couple of screenshots showing right underwing - brighter and/or reflexing part of the painting is visible and with clear boundaries approximately in the middle of the wing.

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_Sukhov/130516_Sukhov_rightunderwing_zps8c7fa77b.jpg)

Hope it will help to find consensus about color of underwing repainting.

      66misos

Hi Misos,
on the third photo, we see that  the reflection on the semigloss paint is obscured by the bomb; on the fourt and fifth, by the landing gear door. We see reflections behind the bomb and bays too, seems that the repainting extends up to the rear edge and a bit behind this under the fuselage. The repainting under the wing is straight and arrives closer to the stars, more or less in the position of the guns on the drawing (but I don't see barrels on the photos).
About the P-47: I'm not sure to see repaintings under the wings. I see that the photo has lighter and darker parts that extend both on the plane and background. In my idea, it's a defect of the photo.
Regards
Massimo

I'll stress this last time:

1.  This P-39 wasn't camouflaged and there was no attempt to match colour of repairs with original American colours.
2.  It was a test flight. Plane was modified to carry bomb.

Most likely colour for repairs is Soviet olive green - one of 4BO derivatives (like A-24m, but there were more oil versions that were used by Army). You only have to adjust olive green to mach contrast between OD and repair colour you see on the movie.

Another option is ALG-1. Again you only have to adjust ALG-1 colour to mach contrast you see on the movie.

Keep it simple!

Cheers,
KL

Hi,
thank for comments.

@Massimo,
very good point regarding missing wing guns ::) Although those pictures repeats basically from the beginning of this thread, you mentioned it first. They probably removed them to save total weight during bomb testing.

@KL,
what I remember from books there flew German planes daily over highway airfiled, so I think Russians would preffer less visible plane in that area. So I would (just my opinion) rather use standard camouflage paints.

I reworked this picture a bit.
1.) I took two chips of Gunze Olive Drab found on Internet (I saw it in real in local hobby shop and it looked at least for me convincing, slightly browner than Tamiya) and mix them with OD from my picture. Result is a bit darker Olive Drab.
2.) for rear fuselage reinforcement repainting I used AMT-4 from AKAN page. I would preffer A-24m, but it is not on Akan page. From modeller point of view they both should/could look same.
3.) front and side fuselage is painted 4BO from Akan page. I took this color after I saw it airbrushed on my Yak-1 - how bright it is on direct sun.
B&w picture shows that 4BO makes apparent contrast against OD.
4.) I have not remove wing guns from my picture yet, I just changed colors.

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_Sukhov/130517_P-39SuchovLEFT_v03_zps47d1dda7.jpg)

I will browse again Tabachenko's, Sukhov's a Pokryshkin's books wether there is some interesting info I missed previously.
Regards,
     66misos

Hi Misos,
I fear that the contrast on the nose is by far unsufficient. Besides I don't think that the light paint on the nose is the same of the less contrasting blotch in front of the star. I would avoid 4BO on the nose.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Misos,
I think it looks great!  More important, it's the most probable scenario - use of olive green on Land-Lease planes has been documented on several wrecks.  What paint precisely (A-24m, 4BO or something similar) is almost irrelevant.
Regards,
KL

It could also be green, but not with that contrast. Even the zinc chromate would be better to fit better the photos.
I think that the idea of choose a color with precision from the existing palette of VVS is losing: none fits. I would make any color that respects the contrast. Anyway, AMT-1 and A-21m appear different in many photos, even on repaintings on the same plane. You could lighten them to find some resemblance. Or put a light green, without clarifying if it's zinc chromate or any other paint out of inventory. Or a light grey as some other profiler did. Anything but this.
Regards
Massimo

Anithing but AMT-1 and A-21m.  Because they didn't match colours and because there is no evidence (yet...) that AMT-1 has ever been used on L-L planes.
Regards,
KL

In photos, these colors can appear light enough.
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/db3-il4/db3-il4camo/il4f.jpg)
Whatever color it is, there no any other evidence of its use on P-39s.
Could also be an unknown mix of colors.  Some light green maybe.
Regards
Massimo

Hi,
here is supplemental info to http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1515.msg11220#msg11220  (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1515.msg11220#msg11220) I found in Pokryshkin's and Tabachenko's books:

1.) Pokryskin, War Sky:
Sukhov was known as an expert for FW-189 ?Frame?.
Sukhov returned with damaged and burned plane. I saw how flames appeared when speed of plane decreased and how they disappeared when Sukhov started attack.
We built roadblocks on the highway. Trucks and columns accepted this, they bypassed highway airfield via field. But once tank went through roadblocks and almost crashed to landing plane.
Once in February we catch German spy...It was a day full of intense training ? shooting and bombing. Pairs of experienced pilots and novices exchanged on the starts. There was nonstop noise in the sky. Sukhov?s ?four? was in the sky. Sukhov shot down one plane.
There were film makers at our airfield that time.

2.) Tabachenko, Pokryshkinskij aviapolk:
Feb 25, 1945, 18:00, Sukhov shot down Fw-190. During next fight Sukhov flew directly against another Fw-190, they both fired. FW-190 in flames crashed into the ground. Sukhov?s plane was also damaged and burned. Sukhov maneuvering in high speed extinguished the fire and landed at 19:00. During the next flight on 28.2.1945 Sukhov shot down 2 Fw-189.
16GIAP had on airport in Aslau 32 P-39, 2 La-7, 1 Ula-5 and 1 Po-2 during March 1945. There was also planes from 104 GIAP in the same airport.
Sukhov flew again on March 3 and March 7.
Pilots from 16GIAP started to fly free hunting and scouting with bomb in March. After crossing front line they looked for targets, bombed it and continued in flight. Total 34 flights with bombs FAB-100 were performed by 15 pilots during March 1945.

3.) I did not find any additional relevant info in Sukhov?s book Eskadrilja vedet boj.

From info above we can see that:
- there were also "native" soviet planes in 16GIAP requiring standard VVS paints for maintenance,
- there were a lot of field arms requiring standard 4BO and other Army paints for maintenance,
- several P-39 (of experienced pilots) were modified to carry the bombs.

     66misos

It's actually a small number of flights:  only about one flight per day (if they flew 31 days?).
Relatively large number of pilots flew bombing missions - about 50% of all pilots in the regiment.

My conslusion:  those were familiarization/combat training flights.  Each pilot would make 1-2 flights and then the next pilot would do the same.  For this regiment needed 2-3 Airacobras equipped with bomb shackles.

P-39Q-25 N 44-32512 is supposed to be 16 giap Airacobra:

(http://crimso.msk.ru/Images6/AS/AS91-1/5-2.jpg)

Hi KL,
thanks for a very interesting photo. Compare it with this one:

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/th_P-39_Mix01.jpg) (http://s1063.photobucket.com/user/66misos/media/P-39%20Airacobra/P-39_Mix01.jpg.html)

Very similar serial number: 44-32467 (432467), the first P-39Q-25 tested in SU vs. 44-32512 (432512). Difference only 45 planes from 700 planes subserie. Olive Drab on this one is not very faded, still significantly darker than Neutral Grey. Should be with red propeller spinner but without red stars on upperwings.

     66misos

Hi Misos,
a fire in the nose? This could help to explain the vaste repaintings on the nose and sides.
Regards
Massimo

Massimo,
check replies #41 and #42, page 3 of this thread...

Plane wasn't camouflaged, it was repaired after it was damaged in combat (seven holes from 20-mm shells).  It was hit in nose (ammunition drums) and in wings (fuel tanks), it burned but Suhov managed to land on a field with extended landing gear.
Regards,
KL

Hi,
I've not written this, on this post at least. I wonder if it's possible that the fire was on the nose too.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
I checked the link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvA5T48Ff94&list=PLCdwQDWwZXDUMEyJd15rUOSS4NK8DuVku (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvA5T48Ff94&list=PLCdwQDWwZXDUMEyJd15rUOSS4NK8DuVku) you posted in the thread about the winter camo on Galchenko's LaGG-3.
Very nice videos, in much better quality then those I already have. :D Thre are 4 parts, I made new screenshots from the 2nd part to see Sukhov's P-39 in better quality:

1.) note bridge over highway and no forrest behind. P-39 rolling with bomb (e.g. starting) under the bridge:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_Sukhov/th_130527_Event1_Sukhov_R01_zpsbc44c3ce.jpg) (http://s1063.photobucket.com/user/66misos/media/P-39_Sukhov/130527_Event1_Sukhov_R01_zpsbc44c3ce.jpg.html)

2.) seems to be different event - no bridge over highway, P-39 rolling with the bomb (e.g. starting) from the side road, forrest behind:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_Sukhov/th_130527_Event1_Sukhov_R02a_zps996456f2.jpg) (http://s1063.photobucket.com/user/66misos/media/P-39_Sukhov/130527_Event1_Sukhov_R02a_zps996456f2.jpg.html)     (http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_Sukhov/th_130527_Event1_Sukhov_R02b_zps2768c700.jpg) (http://s1063.photobucket.com/user/66misos/media/P-39_Sukhov/130527_Event1_Sukhov_R02b_zps2768c700.jpg.html)

P-39 landed without the bomb:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_Sukhov/th_130527_Event1_Sukhov_L01_zps6d3ec304.jpg) (http://s1063.photobucket.com/user/66misos/media/P-39_Sukhov/130527_Event1_Sukhov_L01_zps6d3ec304.jpg.html)

Underwings repainted by glossy stuff. Was primer glossy or Matt? If Matt, then semigloss blue AMT-7 seems to be most probable.
Regards,
     66misos

Hi Misos,
excellent serie of images indeed. Seems that the plane has made a war flight.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,

if I look at the summary of events:
  - 25 February 1945, Sukhov?s plane was damaged,
  - Some pilots (hunters) start flying with bomb in March,
  - Sukhov flew again on March 3 and March 7.

I do not know now whether Pokryshkin in document film flew bombing test flight or it was kind of demonstration for film makers. I tend to preffer demonstration with known result (to film bomb explosion) rather than to film unknown result with potential plane damage.

IMHO that plane was camouflaged, not left in primer. I know different current primers, they all are hard matt or more less matt. Was ALG-1 also matt?

Regards,
     66misos

Hi Misos,
I think it was camouflaged too.
Regards
Massimo

Hi

Photobucket is being a pain, so for ease of reference I've edited in the full size pictures.

Very interesting pics!
cheers
T

Misos/Massimo,
plane wasn't camouflaged - it wasn't camouflaged before being damaged and repaired (standard American OD/NG wasn't a "camouflage") and it wasn't camouflaged if damage/repairs were sprayed with olive green or light brown or any other colour.
You should first learn what was the definition of camouflage in RKKA.

Misos,
didn't you figure out the date when movie was taken?
It looks that the plane was repaired and modified to carry bomb in 1-2 days!!!  It was a very quick job - IMHO, in this case technician may have used what was available and they did not pay attention to colour matching or camouflage.
It is quite possible that the plane was filmed when Pokrishkin made a test flight (as it is stated in the movie) at the end of February.  Other pilots started with bombing missions after that, in March.

Regards,
KL  

Hi,
what I meant is that the plane could have been painted intentionally with some contrasting colors because the pilot wanted so, and intended as permanent; nothing to see with the definitions of RKKA. I would be marvelled if they didn't find a can of some usual dark green, the most likely color for repaintings over od. If it was only a repair, I don't see the meaning to have left a (supposedly) black nose. However, this (as the contrary) is undemonstrable with present documents.
Regards
Massimo

Hi,

1. Sukhov, Eskadrilja vedet boj:

2. Pokryshkin, War Sky:

When considering also other info or events description in both books, Sukhov's one seems to be closer to the reality/true.

Massimo, what dark green do you mean? Here http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1515.msg12493#msg12493  (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1515.msg12493#msg12493) I tried to find some. At least AKAN 4BO is not dark, it is brighter than AMT-4.

KL, thanks for explanation. OK, let's say plane was not camouflaged, only painted with olive green or light brown or any other colour. Not left in primer.

I agree that soviet technicians worked very fast:

IMHO, Pokryshkin in document film (that time triple HSU) is filmed during bombing demonstration for propaganda and/or "front news" for Soviet cinemas, or something like that. Not testing flight.

Regards,
     66misos

Hi Misos,
I mean the usual greens, nothing new.

So, according to Suchov's report, it had passed a month between the damaging and the movie.
If so, Suchov's plane could have been choosen because it was interesting to see, not because it was repaired in a hurry.

Regards
Massimo

So, the date when movie was made is not known...   >:(
According to Tabachenko's book, section of Berlin - Breslau highway was used by 16 giap as a runway from February 18 to April 14 1945.  Regiment and its planes were actually based at the nearby Aslau airfield.

Table on pages 640-642 is interesting; it looks that first bombing missions (called "free hunt") were made by a pair Koryaev - Tsvetkov on March 3rd and March 4th.  There was no bombing missions by March 13 and then, after this pause, between 1 and 5 P-39s were sent to bombing missions almost daily.  Pokrishkin didn't fly any bombing missions in March 1945.

Information on Pg 614 can be related to Suhov's P-39:
"Airacobra P-39M-1 No 24926 disassembled for spare parts due to wear and tear on February 25, 1945."   Same day when Suhov landed his damaAged/burned P-39...


Massimo, forget those Pilawskii style theories ? VVS pilots did not have any say in plane colours.  It was a regiment commander who signed off if plane was a writeoff or it could be repaired.  It was also regiment commander who could order bomb shackles installed on a repaired plane.

 
Colours didn?t matter since it was a black-and ?white movie.  This plane was chosen because it was one of the few that could carry a bomb.
Regards
KL

I suppose that many slogans or personal marks were made for pilot's will. It could also be that a pilot preferred to modify something of the livery of his plane, or put in evidence a repair, instead of writing a slogan.
I  think that they hadn't chosen that plane for a propaganda movie, if they thought that it would have given a bad impression.
Regards
Massimo

We hit the 11th page marker on this one. ::)

Yes, we've collected a lot of interesting considerations but not found the answer to the question: what color is on the nose?
Misos, I suggest to choose any light color and put it provisionally on the drawing unless new informations will emerge. Eventually even grey 02 not to go against other profilers without proof, or light brown if you prefer.
Regards
Massimo

Massimo,
Patriotic slogans are not related to colours and camouflage.  You are mixing apples and oranges; you are saying that because some VVS pilots had "For Stalin" slogans in 1941, pilots were allowed to choose any colour for their planes in 1945.  It simply didn't work that way...

Try to think this way:  how common were planes painted according to pilot's wishes in other airforces?  Is there a single Luftwaffe plane painted after pilot's requests?  Any RAF planes painted in pilots' favourite colours?  Any Italian WWII planes camouflaged according to pilots' instructions?
Was VVS any different?

Regards,
KL  

Actually, we have learned what had happened to the plane, why its nose is repainted, when and where it was filmed and a lot of other interesting facts...  That should count too!

We know that there are only few options for nose colour - it's not "any light colour".

Regards,
KL

Hi,

I've written just this.


One that has to draw a profile or to paint a model usually prefers to know that it was 'any light brown' (or 'any light grey' or 'any zinc chromate' or 'any light green') instead of one between AMT-1, ALG1 , Grau 02 etc that have known names and shades but are completely different between them.
The good thing is that it's very difficult that anyone will demonstrate that the preferred choice is wrong.


Please keep in mind that Sukhov was present during the repairs, and had certainly approved, if not suggested, the choice of the color for the repainting.
Besides Suchov's plane had already uncommonly preserved or restored white backgrounds on the red stars, although all other planes of the unit  had been repainted deleting them since long time, and this was certainly a choice of the pilot, approved by the regiment commander. Having uncommon national marks is by far more trasgressive than an uncommon livery.
Should he  have not appreciated the multicolor look of the plane, the repair session would have been the best occasion to repaint in green all the nose and the white disks.

Misos, please make a try: take a chip with Photoshop of all the colors that were proposed for the repainting (zinc chromate, light brown, apple green and light grey) and mix them in equal parts; let's see what comes out, just to have an idea.

Regards
Massimo

Hi,
they taught me in the school something like that the highest criteria of the theory is practice. So I purchased "test" Academy P-39N in 1/72, Tamiya and Gunze paints today. Akans I already have. I will do something like this http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1515.msg12469#msg12469 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1515.msg12469#msg12469) but with real (modeler) paints and will post photos of results. But before I want to finish my Yak-1, hope soon.

@b_realistic,
when looking for truth, sky is the limit. Some page maker no.10 will not stop us :P

     66misos ;)

Hi Massimo,
No, Suhov most likely wasn't present during the repairs.  His plane was seriously damaged, it was most likely transferred to PARM (mobile overhaul shop).  Modifications visible in the movie (bomb shackles and removed wing guns) also suggest overhaul.

Instead of guessing some facts from Tabachenko?s book:
-   during the Feruary 1945, 16 giap lost 4 Airacobras: one was lost in combat, one was transferred to PARM on February 09 and two were disassembled for spare parts.
-   During the March 1945, 16 giap lost 5 Airacobras.  In addition to those, one Airacobra was transferred to PARM.  During the same month, 16 giap received five P-39s from 21st PARM

Suhov himself scored 2 victories on February 28, three days after forced landing, obviously flying a different P-39. He scored next two victories on April 18, those were his last victories too.  Suhov is not listed among the pilots who flew bombing missions in March.  So, he may not have flown "his" beloved No 50 after February 25th.  ::)

White disks were unusual in combat units in 1945, but Suhov?s P-39 wasn?t unique.  IMHO white disks on Suhov?s Airacobra can?t be used to prove anything.

Regards,
KL

Hi,
If it returned from a PARM, the repainting has to be intended as definitive.  PARM would likely have utilized always the same paints for repaintings, but this is the only known one with so light blotches on its nose.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Misos,
this image shows what I mean.
I've taken an ALG-1, a AMT-1, a Grau02, an ALG-5 (not too different from other greens) and I blended them in equal parts to obtain a 'baricentric' color

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lendlease/p-39/colortest.jpg)

As you see, the resulting shade is close again to AMT-1.  I don't mean this is a proof of the use of this color, but suggests that, in absence of other informations,  it is a prudential choice, being not too far from grey, brown, green etc. Besides it is in the Soviet inventory and is similar to a lighter shade of faded OD.  I would go with this.

Regards
Massimo

Hmmmm,  ???
if we start mixing Soviet and German paints, possibilities are endless...

I would go with 4BO i.e. A-24m. Standard Soviet "Protective" colour: readily available, designated for metal, found on L-L wrecks...
Regards,
KL

Hi,
But so, the darker repaintings on the rear fuselage are more or less identical to the light repaintings on the front.
Both considering Russian and German colors, it's unlikely that the lighter repainting is in any color other than light/medium grey, brown or green.
Regards
Massimo

4BO is green and it is lighter than American OD...

(http://i.pics.livejournal.com/as_1919/47713503/871/original.jpg)

Rear fuselage strengthening was painted with some other dark green paint.
Regards,
KL

Hi, 4BO should have been common for repaintings, but the light look of the repaintings of this plane is unique. This suggests to exclude the commonly utilized colors.
Regards
Massimo

Same yellow-green here:

(http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/photogallery/p39q/i_grinberg_p39q_032.jpg)

But in this photo the yellow-green appears so light only over the remains of the white rectangle of the US mark.
This means that its look is influenced for trasparence by the underlying white paint.
Zooming, one can see that the same paint looks a darker green when overposed to the blue of the US mark or to the od background.
Regards
Massimo

Detachable panels on both sides are yellow-green.  Nothing to do with US markings...

(http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/photogallery/p39q/i_grinberg_p39q_012.jpg)

I've tried to convert it into bw.
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lendlease/p-39/bwtest.jpg)
The green appears lighter of od only where it is overposed to the white of the US mark.
I am not saying that it can't be green, of course, but it has to be lighter than this one.

Hi,

I made paintings on my "test" Avenger. Find attached several pictures. All used paints are listed directly in pictures.
I used acrylics Revell Black, Tamiya Olive Drab, Gunze Olive Drab, Dark Green and Neutral Grey and Akan AMT-4 and AMT-7.
Plus I used enamel Revell 87 for AMT-1 Light Brown according to http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234933995-vvs-colours-in-the-great-patriotic-war/ (http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234933995-vvs-colours-in-the-great-patriotic-war/).
After all paints were airbrushed I applied one coat of enamel Revell Matt coat to achieve same reflections from all paints.
Nose is painted black.
Photos with stone background were made on the direct sun.
Photos with light grey background were made also outside, but in the shadow.

Pict 1
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_Sukhov/130602_101_zps2635738c.jpg)

Pict 2
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_Sukhov/130602_101bw_zps85430bd1.jpg)
Tamiya Olive Drab is much darker than Gunze Olive Drab. It could be appropriate for relatively new late Q versions. On b&w photo Gunze Dark green looks even lighter than Tamiya Olive drab - see right upper wing.
Tamiya Olive Drab could represent new paint, Gunze Olive Drab could represent old, strongly weathered paint.

Pict 3
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_Sukhov/130602_103_zpsda0e510f.jpg)
Left side of the fuselage airbrushed Tamiya Olive Drab firstly and then other green and brown paints. On the tail Gunze Dark Green makes almost no difference, Akan AMT-4 looks a bit brighter, visible contrast. Akan 4BO could represent here that bright paint on the front fuselage, but neither AMT-4 nor Dark Green does not make desired contrast on the rear fuselage and the tail. Revell 87 (AMT-1 Light Brown) looks too bright, too big contrast.

Pict 4
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_Sukhov/130602_102_zps9ffb5d5c.jpg)
Right side of the fuselage airbushed Gunze Olive Drab firstly and then other green and brown paints. If we trust to Sukhov's memoirs where he writes that he used the same plane for the whole period in 16GIAP, then his P-39 would be almost 3 years old, strongly weathered.
4BO Green make only a small contrast over Gunze (weathered) Olive Drab. Revell 87 (AMT-1) Light Brown could better represent bright color on the front fuselage. Plus, both AMT-4 green and Dark Green make visible darker contrast on the rear fuselage and the tail.

Pict 5
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_Sukhov/20130602_104_zps7bad4a09.jpg)

Regards,
    66misos

Hi Massimo/Misos,
Some problems in your analysis and some comments:
1.  Black and white image created in Photoshop is not the same as black and white photo!  Conversion of a colour image to a b/w image can be manipulated and results could be very different.  You can hardly prove anything using software generated b/w images.

2.  You have two very different OD.  You assume that lighter OD is weathered - maybe, but maybe one is correct and the other one is wrong...

3.  You should use Akan AMT-1 in addition to Revell 87.  This way you will have two AMT-1, same as two ODs.  One new and one old (or one correct and one wrong).

4.  4BO and AMT-4 that I have seen in museums are lighter than Akan chip I have...  Although, 4BO on your photos looks OK...

Regards,
KL

Hi KL,
I agree, it has limitations, a lot depends on filter and photo material. I know photos where red stars looks almost white, and elsewhere almost black. I also saw a photos showing abandoned Lagg-3 or Mig-3 photographed once by Soviets, and also by Germans. Once black/green camo is contrasted, another time the contrast is hardly visible.

This my post http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1515.msg12019#msg12019 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1515.msg12019#msg12019)
There are tons of discussions about the right OD, similarly to VVS AMT-11/AMT-12 controversy, VVS greens etc. The Steve Zaloga's article (link attached there) has interesting outcome: "Basically, the only colour that comes close to the wartime colour is the Tamiya acrylic XF62, with the Poly Scale acrylic a distant second. Two colours fell for the old FS-595A snag, Gunze Sangyo and Model Master which are too light and vivid for wartime Olive Drab. Tamiya XF-62 - Best match for wartime colour - Should be lightened a bit with ochre. Gunze Sangyo H52 - Matches 1968 FS-595A - OK for wartime OD, a bit vivid."
Weathered OD changed color quited fast. IMHO it is necessary to ask new OD or old/weathered OD, when disputing about "right" color/shade of OD. There is not one exact OD shade/color in real life.

Here http://s362974870.onlinehome.us/forums/air/index.php?showtopic=196449&st=0 (http://s362974870.onlinehome.us/forums/air/index.php?showtopic=196449&st=0) is a long discussion about right color/shade of AMT-1.
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_37VdbHCEOKU/SvS7mVA0sQI/AAAAAAAAAPM/DwHguRlW83k/s800/AMT-1_WEM%20et%20Revell%2087.jpg)
Kari Lumppio: "Couple of guys gave short presentation of the albom and Soviet colours at local IPMS meeting (Helsinki). That was at some point of Autumn 1997. In any case the guys had made comparison table for the Albom samples with a number of comparison matches. One of the few (couple?) direct model paint matches given was AMT-1/Revell 87..."
So may be match is not 100% perfect but IMHO good enough. And as we seen also Akan green (AMT-4) can vary in time and between production plant.

As
regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos,
Thanks for the OD explanations.  Zaloga's text isn't clear, but how I understand, the real WWII OD was darker and Tamiya XF62 is the only good representation of the real colour.
It looks that combination Tamiya XF62 and AKAN 4BO actually works really good in terms of contrast!
You will have to use your artistic license to age/weather XF62 to look like 2-year old Suhov's P-39...  but not to look like Gunze H-52.

Regards,
KL

If I understand well, the plane was already 3 years old and the US olive drab was notoriously prone to fading. On the museum exhibit, many of the green repaintings with Russian green are darker than the olive drab (not to speak of the color of the added plate that looks nearly black).
In the test on the model, the gunze olive drab is closer in shade to revell 87 than to any of the greens.
The movie shows clearly a lighter shade on both the sides of the nose, but none other known soviet P-39 shows the same look; this would exclude all the colors abitually used fo repaintings over olive drab, including 4BO.
AMT-1 is baricentrical between all the proposed colors, including grey, light green and brownish zinc chromate.
Now another consideration: AMT-1 was used on bombers, and this plane was adapted to carry bombs and used as a bomber after the repair. Yes, it would be the only known one.
Regards
Massimo

The plane was in service for 2 years.  Suhov was assigned to 16 giap in May 1943 and the movie was made in March 1945.  Buffalo Museum P-39 is 70 years old and it has been submerged for over half a century.


It would not be the only one, in your interpretation every light colour is AMT-1

-  Your 1941 three colour Pe-2s and Il-2s include AMT-1.
-  Your 1942 "snake camouflage" Yak-7 include AMT-1.
-  Your black-green Yak-6s include strange AMT-1 fields.
-  Some of your late war Pe-2s and Tu-2s have most of their upper surfaces painted in AMT-1.

Not hard to see what is your favourite colour.  ;D

Regards,
KL  

Hi KL,
P-39 deliveries to 16GIAP could last several months, so I would go for compromise 2,5 years. ;) There is a lot of pictures showing (older/weathered) P-39s with OD quite light in comparison with blue in USAAF insignia, oil stains etc. Plus photo of Sukhov P-39 rear fuselage shows significant contrast between faded OD and dark repainting.
Sukhov's P-39 wears really bright areas. There are not many options for bright external color among VVS paints from that time period. Basically only light brown AMT-1/A-21m. White is not option in this case.
On the other side I cannot find any dark green among VVS or RA paints which could make significantly darker contrast against dark OD. ???

regards,
       66misos

The olive drab appears notoriously faded on a lot of wartime photos of US planes. 

AMT-1 and AMT-11 are the only camo colors in 1941/45 period appearing clearly lighter than AMT-4 green. The difference between AMT-4 and  4BO is only marginal.
For Pe-2s and Il-2s of 1941, a light color should be chosen between a very light green, light brown and light grey. Light brown looks the most credible one. In case of doubt, AMT-1 is anyway a baricentric color between green, grey and brown, and was formulated in 1941. If it is not AMT-1, you have to explain what other color it could be.
My interpretation of the snake camouflage of Yak7/9 of Z.115 is grey/grey, something similar to AMT-11 and 12. I don't know how you've found this idea of AMT-1.
My drawings of Yak-6 are consistent with those of Vaklamov and Orlov.
Drawings of late Tu-2s and Pe-2s are an attempt to interpretate a common characteristic appearing on the most of the photos. The alternative to the light brown is AMT-11 grey, however some of the photos are dated 1944 and this would be strange. If you know what color it should be, please tell me.
Regards
Massimo

Hi,
I posted questions about Sukhov?s P-39 at http://vif2ne.ru/nvi/forum/0/0.htm and spent there couple of days in discussion. Here are outcomes:

1.) Version of Sukhov?s P-39
Discussion can start with the fact that it was P-39N or P-39Q. Most likely Q-15.
The wing machine guns were not in N, neither Q, nor any other "Cobras? in the Soviet Air Force during 1945. Sukhov?s memoirs - it's just a memoir, the photo shows P-39Q.

2.) New photo
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_Sukhov/04_P-39_Sukhov_zpseee4dd2b.png)
posted by member of that forum shows:
   - there was no reinforcement of the rear part of the fuselage,
   - Rear part of the fuselage has original OD, stencils above white circle are still visible.
Compare it with this previous version:
(http://crimso.msk.ru/Images6/AS/AS91-1/4-1.jpg)

3.) Repainting - basically three opinions
   - old weathered OD (bright color) was repainted by new OD (dark color),
   - old weathered OD (bright color) was repainted by German RLM-71 Dark Green,
   - old weathered OD (dark color) was repainted by unknown German paint.

Polemic about VVS paints vs. US paints:
Did IAPs/GIAPs get OD together with P-39s? I think so.
There is no reason in the regiment armed with L-L planes to use some substitutes.  Just next doors, at 129.GIAP, at the same time the same effect on the weathered planes is visible - they used fresh OD to paint some panels and white bands.
Sukhov?s plane repainted by fresh OD around cockpit and nose fuselage.
 vs.
Spots on Sukhov?s plane painted by captured German paint - seek shade in Luftwaffe palette. Moreover, only one color. Brown 100% not.
Why German paints or even US paints are more probable than standard VVS paints?
   - the US paints were not supplied,
   - the Soviet paints (here not probable), because the regiment was given a very limited amount of paint and spent it on small touch-up, not the camouflage (especially - nonstandard),
   - but the trophy German paints were available in large amounts.

Regards,
     66misos

Hi Misos,
I am not fully convinced that this plane was not reinforced. I think to see a V shape and a dark round aside the head of the third man, more or less where we see similar shapes on the museum exhibit.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,

it was meant this: http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1515.msg11130#msg11130 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1515.msg11130#msg11130), the ?Reply #12?
The "V" shapeh sheet behind the right man is standard plate (thermal protection?) behind the exhaust pipes.

Plus note on that new photo also:
- branches with leaves under the horizontal stabilizer,
- thin line looking like broken antena wire.
   
66misos

Hi Misos,
I see a weaker trace passing across the well visible oblique line. Clearly can't be a sheet, but seems as the trace of the remotion of a previous reinforcing plate.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Misos,
interesting discussion, some useful information, but also a lot of personal preferences.

"US paints were not supplied" was an important statement! It was posted by V. Romanenko, the author of P-39 books and expert on land-lease.  His insistance on German paints is only a guess, though.

My preference is still Army 4BO.  It was available everywhere, even today surplus is used for Modern Arts:

(http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/vikond65/53941713/435994/435994_original.jpg)
(http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/vikond65/53941713/436396/436396_original.jpg)

Cheers,
KL 

Konstantin, those photographs are actually quite interesting.  They show the variety of 4BO, according to age, fadeing, etc.  They seem to cover most of the various interpretations I've seen of AMT-4.

Regards,

Jason

Interesting artwork.
The colors of the helmets (and of tubes) are the original ones, and I suppose that the variability in shade is forthemost due to fading and traces of rust that change according to the state of conservation of each helmet.
Artists seem to have added only pink, blue and vivid colors.
However, seems that the original shade of most helmets  and other parts is consistent enough.
Romanenko... maybe he is writing some books utilizing unpublished interviews?
Regards
Massimo

hi KL,
thanx for nice pictures  ::) and V.Romanenko identification. Do you know who is Alex? He is the first among Top5 writers on that forum.

Here it is 1:1 for AMT-1 light brown and 4BO green. They excluded brown on that Russian Airforce forum. So at least statistically 4BO seems to be more probable for upper surface. But what paint for undersurface, if not Russian and US paints? German light blue RLM-76?

     66misos

No idea...  AIF member Alex sometimes signs his posts as Artyom, our forum member Olkor may know his full identity...  ;)


IMHO, it was something as widely available as 4BO, nothing egzotic (German paints, US paints or maybe American paint captured by Germans?)  ::)
For paints utilized by Red Army, You shoud check this text:  http://www.dshk.narod.ru/sovpaint.htm
Following is probably answer on your question:

Серо-дикая и серо-голубая масляные густотёртые краски представляют собой пасты, состоящие из смеси сухих пигментов, тщательно затёртых на натуральной олифе (или на олифе из тунгового масла). В состав красок входят следующие основные компоненты: белила цинковые или литопонные, охра, тяжёлый шпат, олифа натуральная или олифа комбинированная. Для подцветки краски (для подгонки цвета под утверждённый эталон) применяют пиролюзит или сажу, ультрамарин или милорь, железный сурик и кроны свинцовые.
Краски серо-дикая и серо-голубая в основном предназначаются для покрытия внешней поверхности снарядов крупных калибров с целью предохранения их от коррозии. До войны краска серо-голубая применялась для нанесения первого слоя, краска серо-дикая ? для нанесения второго слоя. Это делалось в основном для того, чтобы в процессе производства легче было узнать, нанесен ли второй слои или снаряд только загрунтован...

HTH,
KL

A small doubt: if they utilized a so common paint to repaint that nose (that looks so light in a lot of images from both sides), why, on bw photos, there are not evidences of so light repaintings on other P-39s, P-40s and other OD painted types ? It should be very common.
Regards
Massimo

You are looking for colour in b/w photos...

Do you have any examples of L-L planes that were extensively repaired like this particular P-39?  Repainted markings are probably a different case.

Regards,
KL

Hi,
I am looking for shade contrast in bw photos. If contrast is visible in all the many images of that plane, it should be visible on other planes too. But, in all the photos of P-39s of Red Stars 4, there is no any other example of visible repainting (excluding the camouflaged planes of course).
Regards
Massimo

Hi,
I was o holiday without email and after my arrival I had to reinstall my NB, so I was a bit quite  ;)
I browsed different Russian forums again and again and found interesting info - Russians had quite big problems with original fuel for Airacobras before end of the war due to too long distances from the front lines to up-country. Pokryshkin had to use all his authority and different "paperworks" to continue with training flights of his unit. And I guess the fuel deliveries had much higher priority than paint deliveries in the front units.

KL,
your Russian text is interesting, but it is (mainly) about paints used for big caliber shells painting/anticorrosion protection.

In the context:
- problems even with fuel, which is necessary to fly,
- the US paints were not supplied,
- the regiment was given a very limited amount of Soviet paint and spent it on small touch-up, not the camouflage (especially - nonstandard),
- 4BO protective green could available, but appropriate paint for underwings is missing,
- 4BO on the soviet helmets on the posted picture looks old and significantly weathered and corroded.
- the trophy German/Luftwaffe paints were available in large amounts,
- repainting on Sukhov's plane was quite fresh (1+ month old), without time enough to significantly weather,
- Sukhov's plane looks like no other L-L plane (known to me),
my personal preference tends for trophy German/Luftwaffe paints which at least for me seem to be a bit more probable than Russian paints.

      66misos

Book is about anti-corrosion protection and it was written by an artillery officer.  Text is about paints in general:  it explains 4BO, camouflage paints etc.  You have to understand that in aviation the primary purpose of paint was to protect from corrosion.  At some times (early/mid war years) camouflage was seen as tactically important, in other times (end of war) it was neglected.


4BO was available for sure.  Sero-dikaya was also available - it was a general purpose anti-corrosion paint.  It was widely used in aviation: for example bombs were light gray-green.  I have seen pieces of light gray-green I-153 fabric.
As you have been told, aviation paints might have been scarce in front-line units.  Those were high quality paints and all production ended in aviation factories.  IMHO, it was different with general purpose paints; those paints were made in large quantities...  


Large amounts? Do you have any proofs?  There were shortages of all kinds in German aviation industry in 1945.  Some Me-262 were left unpainted.  After the war Soviets continued to use their nitro paints, they never bothered to copy German paints.

Cheers,
KL

Hi KL,
thanks for reply and interesting pointer at possible underwing paint:

Do you mean paint posted at http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1086.msg7372#msg7372 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1086.msg7372#msg7372) ?

(http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/4802/grenoble.29/0_3d133_c9d93df0_XL.jpg)

(http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/4800/grenoble.29/0_3d132_e9ecd85d_XL.jpg)

(http://img.nr2.ru/pict/arts1/21/00/210024.jpg)

Color seems to be brighter than faded dirty Neutral Grey so it could agree with what is visible on Sukhov's P-39 (right) underwings.

So finally we have possible candidates for two approaches:
- Russian paints: protective 4B0 Green and Sero-dikaya, similar to "Slate Gray" or German "Feld Grau",
- Germain paints:  IMHO RLM 75 Medium Gray for Upper surfaces and RLM 76 Light Blue-Gray for Under surfaces (http://www.oncamouflagedwings.org/camo/index.htm (http://www.oncamouflagedwings.org/camo/index.htm), btw interesting article)

I have no proof, it was quoted from Russian forum. I think in this case it is not necessary to speak about large amounts. When looking at the screenshots from document reel showing Pokryshkin and other officers and P-39s at the big German airport:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/130913_Pokryshkinatgermanairport_zpsf2297053.png)
surely there was not big problem to find enough German paints for one P-39. Of course, it is only IMHO.

However, without some new clear/hard evidence there is probably no definitive answer on question about colors on Sukhov's P-39. A bit latter I will make profiles of the both approaches, I am too busy in my work now. And we will see what future will bring. Updates are always possible ;)

Regards,
    66misos

I wonder if they had some other use for this color. Bombs were painted at the factory and utilized once, I don't see reason to have a color for bombs only in frontline units.
Regards
Massimo

Massimo, sero-dikaya wasn't used for bombs only (should be clear from "general purpose anti-corrosion paint").  Metal objects that didn't have to be painted in "protective colour" were painted in gray-green sero-dikaya.  For example, field artillery was painted in 4BO, fixed coastal baterries were painted in Sero-dikaya colour (sero-dikaya was used by VMF too).


Misos, Pokrishkin's regiment was based at Aslau airfield; check this link for more info http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=25063



It shouldn't be a problem to find what colours were used on Aslau built Fw-190D-9s  ;)

HTH,
KL
 

But there are not particular reasons to suppose that they had availability of a color for second line duties, not used on their planes.


I suppose they were hellgrau 76, braunviolett 81 and grun 83. The last one could be a candidate for the lighter parts on the nose.
http://www.militarymodelling.com/forums/postings.asp?th=20450 (http://www.militarymodelling.com/forums/postings.asp?th=20450)

Regards
Massimo

Hi KL,
thank you for very interesting info and links. I browsed them, plus a number of additional links about Luftwaffe.
I did not find any direct bullet-proof evidence about paints used in Aslau. Here I would summarize info I found on all those pages, giving some hints about used paint:

http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/luftcamdb_3.htm (http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/luftcamdb_3.htm)
Evidence from all sources suggest (e.g. not confirm) names for paint numbers:
- 74 Graugr?n  
- 75 Grauviolett
- 76 either Lichtblau or Weissblau
- 81 Braunviolett (Brown-Violet)
- 82 Hellgr?n (Bright Green)
- 83 Dunkelgr?n (Dark Green)

August 15, 1944
83 Dunkelgr?n (Dark Green) replaced 74 Graugr?n without any alterations to the camouflage pattern.
Could the 75/83 scheme actually be a long-lived transition scheme from 74/75 to the later 81/82 colours? 75/83 scheme first appears on the Bf 109 and FW-190 fighters.

September 1944
75/83 scheme specified  for the FW-190 D-9.
First operational use of the Dora took place in early October 1944 with III./JG 54 whose aircraft were camouflaged in the 75/83 scheme?
However, a change occurred in the camouflage colors used in early 1945, from the standard 75/83 scheme to the 81/82 combination, and it is most probable that a variety of transition schemes existed (e.g., 81/83, 82/83, 75/81, etc.)

November 1944
Released by Focke-Wulf and approved by the RLM, designating the 'green' 81/82/76 camouflage scheme to be applied to the Ta 152 (C or H?). The colors were designated as "81" and "82", however, no descriptions of the colors were provided.
Photographic evidence strongly suggests that although the 81/82 scheme was applied to the Ta 152 H series, the Ta 152 C-1 aircraft were finished in the 75/83 scheme as worn by the FW-190 D-9.

December 1944
FW-190 D-9 "Black 12", WNr. 210079, which crashed from a low-level bird hit - The camouflage is a mottled on the fuselage, with the green predominating. The upper surfaces of the wings are a rather brighter green than is usual with German aircraft, whilst the undersides of the wings are light blue. The spinner is black with a white spiral.
good description for RLM 82 Hellgr?n. Regardless, by the end of the war, colour photos of late war Doras reveal them to have moved into the green 81/82 scheme

Chronology of Camouflage Schemes and Colours for Focke-Wulf
Date      ?Darker? Colour                 ?Lighter? Colour
??/09/44      Fw 190 D   83 (not given)   75 Grauviolett
??/10/44      Fw 190 A/F 83 (not given)   75 Grauviolett
??/12/44      Fw 190 D   82 Hellgr?n?   (no other colour?)
??/01/45      Fw 190 D   81 (not given)   82 (not given)


Focke-Wulf 190 A-8
350 151 ? 350 300   Aslau   07.44-09.44    150 planes / 3 months, e.g. 50 planes /month,  
350 851 ? 350 875   Aslau   10.44-10.44     25 planes / month,

Focke-Wulf 190 A-9 (D-9)
490 020 ? 490 050   Aslau   12.44-01.45            30 planes/2 months, e.g. 15 planes/month,
10 FW-190 A-8 and 14 D-9  Aslau      Jan-45                    24 planes / month

http://www.flickr.com/photos/23057174@N02/4256669125/in/set-72157610334641015 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/23057174@N02/4256669125/in/set-72157610334641015)
Fw 190 A-8 W.Nr. 350 210 "Gelbe 15", I./JG ?, built at Aslau in 1944.
60th plane of the serie, e.g. produced sometime in July/August 1944 ? camo scheme 74/75/76.

compare to:
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aircraft-markings-camouflage/fw-190-a6-1-jg-54-nowotny-32033.html (http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aircraft-markings-camouflage/fw-190-a6-1-jg-54-nowotny-32033.html)
D-FWJS (cn 990017) Flug Werk FW 190A-8/N by Andreas Zeitler - Flying-Wings
"Over its original gray camouflage, the fuselage and upper wing surfaces had been completely repainted in two new colours, a medium green, around the cockpit section and an olive green elsewhere, possibly the first experimental use of the colours 82 and 83. The tail section, however, was not recamouflaged??

SUMMARY:
- September 1944 - 75 Grauviolett /83 Dunkelgr?n (Dark Green) scheme for the Fw 190 D-9, replacing previous 74/75 scheme.
   First operational use of the Dora took place in early October 1944 with III./JG 54 whose aircraft were camouflaged in the 75/83 scheme?
- early 1945 - change from the standard 75/83 scheme to the 81 Braunviolett (Brown-Violet) /82 Hellgr?n (Bright Green) combination,
- it is most probable that a variety of transition schemes existed (e.g., 81/83, 82/83, 75/81, etc.).

Repanting on the sides and front fuselage of Sukhov's P-39 is noticeable brighter than faded Olive Drab from different angles and times, so it is not only matter of the fresh semi-gloss paint reflection - possible candidates are 75 Grauviolett or 82 Hellgr?n 82 (Bright Green).  81 Braunviolett or 83 Dunkelgr?n (Dark Green) are too darks. They could be good candidate for the nose repainting.
76 either Lichtblau or Weissblau seems to be OK for underwings.

66misos

Hi,
could somebody, please, help to identify type and color of bombs used on Sukhov's plane?

Here are Russian options - FAB bombs http://www.hyperscale.com/2007/reviews/accessories/vectorvds72001reviewbg_1.htm (http://www.hyperscale.com/2007/reviews/accessories/vectorvds72001reviewbg_1.htm)
(http://www.hyperscale.com/2007/reviews/accessories/images/vector72005reviewbg_1.jpg)
None of them has circular/ring stabilizer.

In my post #140 from May 27, 2013 http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1515.msg12611#msg12611 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1515.msg12611#msg12611) I posted screenshots from seems to be two flights. Here are details made from those screenshots:

Bomb from the first event - there is square stabilizer, like on FAB-100, mentioned also in the Tabachenko's book:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_Sukhov/131028_P-39_Bomb02_zpsee644d7e.png)

Bomb from the second event - there is circular/ring stabilizer ???:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_Sukhov/131028_P-39_Bomb01_zpsb961827c.png)
Note apparently different colors on the right under wing.

Another view on one of that bombs:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_Sukhov/131028_P-39_Bomb03_zps62a43d49.png)

Could it be "Sero-dikaya" from KL's post http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1515.msg13200#msg13200 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1515.msg13200#msg13200)?
(http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/4802/grenoble.29/0_3d133_c9d93df0_XL.jpg)

Thank you.
    66misos    

Hi Misos,
could it be this one?

(http://s3.postimg.org/l2d67lg0i/2505.jpg)
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
seems link is broken, there is no picture.

    66misos

Hi Misos,
I see the picture, try again.
To tell the truth, the bomb isn't identical to the one of the photo, whose empennages have a tapered internal gap.
Could it be a German bomb?
Regards
Massimo

Picture is not working on my end either.

Hi,
I continue to see it. Strange...
The page can be found here
http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_10144.html (http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_10144.html)
the scan of pag. 322.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
thanks for link. A lot of interesting info.
This could be
one of FAB-100 variant:
(http://s3.postimg.org/622zp9zgz/600x600_fs_YSTINOV_02_09_Ust_0886_1.jpg)
or
one of FAB-250 variant:
(http://s3.postimg.org/o61ew67rn/600x600_fs_YSTINOV_02_09_Ust_0886_3.jpg)

used during "Highway exercise". What is their color? They both look quite dark for blue-grey "Sero-dikaya".

   66misos

Russian modellers agree that sero-dikaya is gray-green; very similar to German Feldgrau.  First coat is described as light blue.  This combination is visible on post-war bombs.
Bombs in Finnish museums are light bluish-gray or light greenish gray, lighter than German Feldgrau.

A real mystery are Albom Nakrasok chips of sero-dikaya and light blue.  Both are almost black!  ???

There was also a black varnish called "Kuzbas lak".  It might have been used on bombs.

HTH,
KL

Hi KL,
thanks a lot for info. So some dirty darker blue-grey-green could be appropriate color.

Off topic.
Four persons, or at least those three in background on the FAB-250 photo seems to be also on FAB-100 photo. Looks like official photo session with "approved" workers/figurants. :)
Regards,
       66misos

... or black...  ???

Hi!
I don't know if it will help, but we talk a little bit about soviets bombs here about the I-15 bis:
http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1086.105 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1086.105)

Xan

Hi,
I found two interesting photos on net, although not related directly to Sukhov's P-39:

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/P-39_67_zps8e120735.jpg)
No red stars on upper wings on Cobras being transferred from USA to SU. Note overpainted area (already in USA) on the left upperwing where original USAF marking was.

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/P-39_68_zps5abdb743.jpg)
This photo brings new light to the post#9 from February http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1515.msg11116#msg11116 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1515.msg11116#msg11116)
Original Olive Drab is overpainted on the wings and tail edges with Dark Green.

Regards,
     66misos

The photo confirms what I said "Dark green was applied along leading and trailing edges to break-up outlines".
Dark Green could have been sprayed in units, not in factory...  Dark green patches are commonly seen on 1942-43 B-17s, A-20s and P-40s.  These patches are rarely seen on P-39s and never on Soviet P-39s... Correct?

Hi Misos,
the photo of 253 is very strange. It is as if they used medium green for repaintings on all the worn parts of the plane. Couldn't it be that fresh OD and medium green are undistinguishable on this photo?
Regards
Massimo

Dark green "dapples" were supposed to soften the edges.  Examples:

(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh564/Donnyb17/P-40Camo2.jpg)

(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh564/Donnyb17/P-40Camo1.jpg)

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2033/2282258468_472d505b59_o.jpg)

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-24U5KtYy40E/T1yi_IapCII/AAAAAAAAH68/4l_qgRkN4nQ/s1600/B-17F-5-BO+Flying+Fortress+41-24433.jpg)

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-TStDg9GwcI0/UVT6uvkDD2I/AAAAAAAAaig/88lix4U8Y1A/s1600/A-20G-35-DO+Havoc+43-10052.jpg)

I haven't seen anything like that on Soviet Airacobras.

Regards,
KL

Konstantin, for what it's worth, I don't recall having seen any photographs of Soviet P-39's with that green "softener" on the trailing and leading edges.

Regards,

Jason

Hi,
yes, I know about the blotches of medium green on the wings and tail. I was wondering about the dark parts on the fuselage panels, outlines of the pilot's door etc.
Good photos anyway.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo

No, it seems that olive drab fades a lot more than medium green. If I remember correctly  the P-39's are from a US based training unit, hence the extensive staining and wear.   As for the darker around the door/panels, I'd suggest hand wear/grease. 

note, all this batch seem to be US based
from - http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_serials/1941_4.html

there are another 3 photos of plane 253 here
http://kevsaviationpics.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/bell-p-39d-airacobra.html

Note in the photo Konstantin posted, how the OD has faded a lot on the fabric on the ailerons and elevators, but the MG hardly a all.
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-24U5KtYy40E/T1yi_IapCII/AAAAAAAAH68/4l_qgRkN4nQ/s1600/B-17F-5-BO+Flying+Fortress+41-24433.jpg)

One point, certainly in the case of the A-20, the medium green was applied at the factory.  I've not heard of it being applied in the field while US planes were being delivered in camouflage.

HTH
T

True, check here:
http://www.goldenarrowresearch.com/resources/USAAF%20Painting%20Practices%20During%20WWII.pdf


Not my field of expertize, judging by photographic evidence only, in most cases medium green was applied in the field.  ???
Practice was widespread, but execution varied so much...

Some A-20s could have been camouflaged at the factory; that may explain why some VVS Bostons had medium green dapples.

cheers,
KL

Hi Troy, hi all,
the B-17 is interesting. Note the OD stars of the first one.  Beside ailerons and elevators are so light... could this be due to wearing only?
Regards
Massimo

About 20 large colour photos for Airacobra fans:

http://www.asisbiz.com/il2/P-39/Bell-P-39-Airacobra.html

(http://www.asisbiz.com/il2/P-39/Bell-P-39-Airacobra/images/USAAF-42-9719-Bell-P-39-Airacobra-118TRS-USA-01.jpg)

Hi KL,
Thanx for post. Unfortunately non of them is VVS  :'(
Regards,
     66misos

  A nice (mostly) colour movie is available at:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbG06bNX1lE
Soviet Airacobras appear around minutes 5, 11 and 13.  Three different red star types are notable.
Regards,
KL

Hi,
I am back with Sukhov, as promised:  ;)

SUMMARY OF DAMAGES:
1.)   20th july 1943 Sukhov performed training flight. During landing the leg of the front undercarriage was broken and plane hit the ground with the nose and damaged propeller (I found this in Tabachenko?s book when looking info about Glinka brothers).
2.)   2nd september 1943 - Sukhov attacking FW-189...Pieces flew around my plane? next day my mechanic reported: The plane is ready to fly!
3.)   25th February 1945 - My plane is hit. A fire erupted on my fighter... flame is not throbbing now, only a thin stream of smoke coming out from the holes on the plane...I counted seven holes from 20-mm shells...

Damage repainting after the first two incidents were done most probably with Soviet paints. However the third accident happened when Pokryshkin's regiment was based at Aslau airfield, where one very large assembly hangar, four more very large hangars and one large repair hangar were? A group of workshop and stores buildings were located in the hangar area, and there was a further group of workshops?
More about Fw-190A-9 production in Aslau is here http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1515.msg13218#msg13218
So surely there was not big problem to find enough German paints for one P-39 in this huge production facility. Question is what paint they could use.

GERMAN PAINTING SUMMARY:
- September 1944 - 75 Grauviolett /83 Dunkelgr?n (Dark Green) scheme for the Fw 190 D-9, replacing previous 74/75 scheme.
   First operational use of the Dora took place in early October 1944, camouflaged in the 75/83 scheme?
- early 1945 - change from the standard 75/83 scheme to the 81 Braunviolett (Brown-Violet) /82 Hellgr?n (Bright Green) combination. It is most probable that a variety of transition schemes existed (e.g., 81/83, 82/83, 75/81, etc.) leveraging old stocks.

Repanting on the sides and front fuselage of Sukhov's P-39 is noticeable brighter than faded Olive Drab from different angles and times, so it is not only matter of the fresh semi-gloss paint reflection - possible candidates are 75 Grauviolett or 82 Hellgr?n (Bright Green).  81 Braunviolett or 83 Dunkelgr?n (Dark Green) are too darks. They could be good candidate for the nose repainting. 76 either Lichtblau or Weissblau seems to be OK for underwings.

The colors of the German paints are taken from http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/colorcharts/stuff_eng_colorcharts_germany.htm (http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/colorcharts/stuff_eng_colorcharts_germany.htm).

75 Grauviolett is quite similar to Igor Zlobin?s grey version at http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1515.msg11098#msg11098 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1515.msg11098#msg11098).

Regards,
    66misos

Hi Misos,
looks likely enough. Here is a bw version of your drawing:
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lendlease/p-39/misos/suchov50bw.jpg)
My preferred one is the first, both because green looks, at least nominally, a good replacement for olive drab, both because it was surely in use at that date.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,

16GIAP reached Aslau base sometime at the beginning of February 1945. There is no mention about long fights to get this base, it was moreles abandoned when 16GIAP got there. I wonder it Germans on Aslau base already got new paints for new 81/82 scheme.

From this perspective "old" Grauviolett from the previous 75/83 scheme seems to be more probable. Or Russian A-21m light yellowish brown, which is also bright enough.

regards,
    66misos

Hi Misos,
I see.
Regards
Massimo

Hi,
inspired by Massimo's colored pictures on his Mig3 pages I tried to color a simple picture.
Here is my first attempt to color bw photo:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_Sukhov/140509_P-39_Sukhov_COLORIZEDPHOTO_01cbf_zps1722c8af.jpg)
Front part of the tail seems to be different color. I overlaid it with the pictures of two other Cobras with tail numbers and distorted them to maximally fit this picture. Although tail numbers are in different positions, in both cases they should be visible, if painted on Sukhov's plane on this photo. So I repainted front part of the tail and number with AMT-4 green.
I know, it is far from Massimo's work, here is a lot of imperfections and missing details, but I quite like it ;) I like to see this photo in color.
Your comments are appreciated.
Regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos,
it's technically well made. Pity for the lack of the men, else it could have been a beautiful photo to show. About the light color, have you left the same hue of the olive drab?
It's possible to delete some of the white dots.
The 50 doesn't look of the same white of the disk, do you think it's silver, or simply badly painted?
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
thanx :) I have this photo in this better quality only without pilots. Pilots are on the poor quality photo. What light color do you mean. All OD has one common settings.
"50" and white circle are surely different whites. White circle was painted (sprayed over mask) precious still in US while "50" was brushed in SU. Silver color is interesting idea. Anyhow I have to check whether I did something wrong in layers when masking it ???
Regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos,
I mean the light area between the 50 and the tail. It's more evident in the colorized version.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
here is updated picture. I cleaned it a bit, added (masking) branches of trees etc.
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_Sukhov/140513_P-39_Sukhov_COLORIZEDPHOTO_01_zps1768f88c.jpg)
There darker area around the white disc - it looks like original late USAF marking repainted in Bell to white disc with red star, similar to that one seen on A-20 Boston http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1781.0 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1781.0).
There seems to be broken antenna wire.
I look for another bw photo, probably that Boston is the next one.
Regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos,
your coloured P-39 looks very good.  But, photo without people is incomplete - Maybe you could add 3 pilots from that low quality image?  Even if they look "coarser" than the plane in background it would be better than 3 ghosts.  ;)

Number 50 is probably silver, similar to silver number on the preserved P-39 in Finland.  Silver paint is extremely reflective, like aluminum foil (or like mirror).  When photographed with flash (or in direct sunlight) it looks white.  Some paint manufacturers call this colour "metallic white".  Darker gray areas within the number are actually brush strokes, again like on the P-39 in Finland...

Regards,
KL

Hi KL,
thanx ;) That "white" on 50 is different from white on the disc, it is probably really silver.
I tried to add there pilots from low res photo. Unfortunately they were not masked preciously when cut off from high res photo. Plus I made "50" less white and more "silver".
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_Sukhov/140513_P-39_Sukhov_COLORIZEDPHOTO_03_zps063516ed.jpg)
I already posted request at airforce.ru forum whether someone has complete high res photo. Then, if complete high res photo is available, I will make another version with colorized high res pilots.
Regards,
   66misos

Hi,
this is response about "50" from airforce.ru:
Белый цвет на номере - фталевая эмаль, с хорошей сохранностью поверхности, "50" накрашена от руки, скорее всего алкидной или масляной краской. Поверхность грубая, пыль прилипает "как из пулемёта". + цинковые белила темнеют от хранения и под действием света.
Translated:
White color on the number - фталевая(2) enamel with good protection of the surface, "50" is painted freehand, probably with alkyd or oil paint. Surface is rough, the dust sticks on it "like from machine gun". Plus Zinc oxide darkens during storage and when exposed to sun light.
Regards,
    66misos

It's clear that the number was hand painted and that the white disc was sprayed.  It's also logical that the number was painted with the Soviet paint and that the white disc was painted with the American paint.  The rest is guessing....

P-39 preserved in Finland and its silver number are a material evidence and can't be ignored (the surface of the number is rough, but dust and aging/degradation can't be observed).  If you want the number 50 to look like the number on the preserved P39, your original colouring was better (the new one is too gray).

regards,
KL

Hi,
I am back here with this endless thread, I would like to finally finish the 4-view of Sukhov's P-39.

EDIT:
Work in progress picture deleted. Next WIP progress is bellow.

Light green on the front fuselage should be german RLM 82 and light blue on the underwings should be German RLM 76, both from the local stock at Aslau base.
Regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos,
looks nice. Are the codes on the tail deleted with Soviet green, in this reconstruction?
Regards
Massimo

Hi Misos,
it looks nice, but there is still some room for improvements...

1.  OD on side views is visibly darker than the same OD colour on top view.

2.  Fuselage number 50 should be silver (as per previous discussion)

3.  Underside light blue isn't convincing when compared with movie stills - it's too light relatively to NG.  Repair on wing undersides should be visibly glossy (as per previous discussion)

IMHO, German paints are only an intriguing option - we really don't know what paints were used.  So, Soviet paints should be considered - whatever has the right contrast to standard OD and NG should be the final choice.   ;)

Cheers,
KL 

Hi,
I forgot it... repaintings on the fuselage should be visible on the upper view too.
Besides, although not visible on photos, the refuelling hatches and other parts of the wing uppersurface should be subject to considerable wearing, and are ideal candidates for a repainting.
Regards
Massimo

Hi,
thanks again for comments. :)
EDIT:
Unfortunately work does not advance as fast as expected. View from top is at beginning now, there will be green color visible. And of course shade of OD will be tunned to match OD at side views.
Let me answer your question/notes.

1.) Serial number on the tail is repainted by VVS green, IMHO AMT-4

2.) Leading edge of the tail is repainted by some darker green, probably after some repair:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_Sukhov/04_P-39_Sukhov_zpseee4dd2b.png)

3.) Color of the number "50" really looks different from the (US) white disc under the red star. Really could be silver.
Or
4.) "German paints are only an intriguing option - we really don't know what paints were used." Agree, but I have read that they (16 giap) had a lot of problems to get enough fuel for their Cobras and that Pokryshkin had to use all in official and unofficial influence and connections to get that fuel. And paints had much lower priority. On the other side that time 16 giap was based at the former German base Aslau with Fw-190A production facilities, e.g. there still could be German paints on the stock. IMHO German paints are (only a bit) more probable.
 
However, I am still not sure about light color at underwings. It looks glossy but I do not know whether it is paint feature or it is due to water splashed from the ground by wheels and/or propeller.
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_Sukhov/130527_Event1_Sukhov_L01_zps6d3ec304.jpg)
If the light color is glossy due to water then it could be matt light blue A-28m, considered previously:
(http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/chips/A28m.jpg)
AMT-7 seems to be too dark.

5.) IMHO all that repainting was not standard maintenance but due to repair of the damages from aerial fight on 25th February 1945, Sukhov himself: "My plane is hit. A fire erupted on my fighter... flame is not throbbing now, only a thin stream of smoke coming out from the holes on the plane...I counted seven holes from 20-mm shells..."
I do not know how that repainting exactly looked like, but I want to make "repaired" look, not standard/regular camouflage painting. Let's say here I use a bit more "artistic licence".

Hope I will be able to post some update today.
Regards,
   66misos

Pfff...  ???  number on the preserved Airacobra in the Finnish museum is painted freehand, it's rough, silver and there definitively is no dust "from machine gun"...



Maybe there is no repainting at underwings after all.... So, it would be better to use something inconspicuous on underwings (something very close to NG), not that light blue which is close to white.  If underwings repair was light blue, it would have been visible as the white disc of markings - in reality it's hardly visible.

BTW, at the end of war, Germans didn't paint undersides - to save paint and time. 



I thought we all have agreed on that long time ago...

regards
KL

Hi KL,
IMHO the right underwing is repainte. Compare:

Right underwing:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_Sukhov/130527_Event1_Sukhov_R02b_zps2768c700.jpg)
There is apparent sharp demarcation line between matt NG and new lighter glossy paint.
Bottom fuselage looks also a bit glossy, but it could be simply wet.

Left underwing:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_Sukhov/130527_Event1_Sukhov_L01_zps6d3ec304.jpg)
No traces of the glossy light repainting are visible.
Yes, that German RLM 76 Lichtblau seems to be too bright.

Regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos,
thanks for posting again those movie stills.  I can see what you are trying to explain   :)

Maybe you can use contrast between the white discs surrounding red stars and unknown colour used to repair undersides?  or, maybe to determine first how wing shade affects NG and then use same amount to darken possible repair colour? or just measure how lighter is unknown colour then NG?

it looks to my eye that underwing repair colour could be the same colour used for repairs on upper surfaces???

Regards,
KL   

Hi,
here is a picture close to the finish, I hope:

(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1110530)

Light green is either Soviet 4BO in one of dozen of its shades (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1515.msg13133#msg13133 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1515.msg13133#msg13133)), or AMT-4 or German RLM 82.
Repainting on the underwings could be either Soviet A-28m or dirty German RLM 76.
Number "50" is not the same white as disc under the star, it could be some Soviet yellowish oil white or silver.

Regards,
  66misos

Hi Misos, nice work as usual.
I find strange that the hatches on the wing are excluded from the repainting. This both because their outer part should have wearing, and because in this way the green paint enters into the hatches. On the fuselage and under the wings, hatches are not excluded from repaintings.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
I repainted green also hatches. Plus blue underwing is made a glossy and a bit lighter - something between Russian A-28m and Germen RLM 76.
Picture is finished now, after two and half years :-)

(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1112819)

Thanks to all for comments and help.
Regards,
   66misos

Very interesting thread.

A few  observations.   

Even if a unit was having difficulty getting supplies, would not paint for touch up be part of the maintenance supplies? If so then AMT-4 and AMT-11, or A-14 could be possible candidates?

If you are advancing the use of captured German paint from a Fw190 facilty,  a better 'match' for US Neutral Gray would be the Luftwaffe Grau Violett 75 which was still used widely on Fw 190's and Bf109's along with Grun 82 [or whatever you consider the darker late war green] as one of the specified uppersurface scheme.

Usual cautions regarding WW2 era colour photos.

This shows RLM 75 and RLM 82 on on a Bf109 K-4, especially on the tail.

(http://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Bf-109K/Bf-109K-JG3.9-(W8+I)/images/1-Bf-109K4R3-9.JG3-White-8-WNr-332884-Gabi-abandoned-Germany-April-1945-01.jpg)

This is the standard mid war Luftwaffe Gray scheme
(http://www.ww2incolor.com/d/8173-5/ME_109_ENGINE_DETAIL.jpg)

the colours on the wings are 74/75, 74 is the darker grey. 
[more precisely 74 Grau Grun and 75 Grau Violett, The 'green' and 'violet' mentioned are to describe the tint, but the base colour is grey.]
 
the underside colour, 76, is the background on the fuselage, on this are mottled,the two grey on the wing and if you look carefully, by the cable hanging out of the cockpit,  grey 02, pale grey/green,[the internal primer, also used in the mottle]  and 70 black green [schwarz grun], the darker spots, which is also the standard colour for the prop blades, if you look you can see it's the same.

RLM 76 usually shows up as near white in B/W photos, and I'd suggest that fresh RLM 75 would appear a bit light than weathered Neutral Gray.

Regardings Konstantion mention the dropping of undersurface colours, 

well, yes and no.  Certainly plans were seen with party unpainted undersides, but certain parts were still painted. Sometimes 76, but also 75 and even 81.
It also depended on factory and batch.
There is a 2 volume set by JaPo on Fw190D camouflage that goes into mindbending detail on this.....  anyone who thinks VVS camouflage is a 'complex' subject should have a read of those...

HTH
T

Hi Troy,
thanks a lot for your post. Interesting pictures and info.
Here at Czech site http://www.modelforum.cz/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=1965 (http://www.modelforum.cz/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=1965) is a lot of Luftwaffe color photos, I went through all of them. Plus I consulted possible late war colors with guys specialized on WWII Luftwaffe.
Info about German light green color is also from airforce.ru forum from my discussion from 2013.
Unfortunately, nowhere is info about underwing colors.
So yes, all that discussion is only about probability, not about 100% certainty.
I hope sometime will appear a good quality photo showing also front fuselage or relevant info from archives. There is no problem to correct picture in PC.
Regards,
   66misos

Hi,
screenshot wrom the document reel about Pokryskin showing Sukhov's Cobra during the Breslaw highwas tests:
(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1262365)
Picture is quite a low rezolution/contrast quality, but better than nothing ;-)
Regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos,
nice to read a post from you.
Have I to expext an update of your article?
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
IMHO no update is necessary. This screenshot shows that only front part of the aircraft was heavily repainted, not aft fuselage. Unfortunately it does not show whether whole tail was repainted or only serial number. So unless nothing better will come my profile is the most reliable.
Best regards,
   66misos