P-39 Airacobras in VVS

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Misos,
very nice drawing. Could you link directly the reference images, please?
Regards
Massimo

[66misos]

Hi Massimo,
thank you. I did not find real photo of that "21". There are only profiles at the attached links. However, I posted this my profile at airforce.ru forum http://vif2ne.ru/nvi/forum/0/0.htm. I hope some photo or verbal correction will be posted there.
Regards,
     66misos

[FPSOlkor]

http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/kulakov/index.htm
What about planes from this interview? And there is one interesting Cobra here:
http://www.airforce.ru/history/cold_war/zabelin/index_en.htm

[66misos]

Hi Olkor,
thanx for links. I browsed them, found there others with interesting photos and info.
http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/articles/shevchuk/shevchuk.htm
Photo of P-39 still in USA prepared for transit to SU. Note already repainted late war USAF insignias on the fuselage:

Here is part of that interview:
"- Do you remember where and how they draw red stars on "Cobras"?
They came to us from the factory with our (e.g. red) stars.
Were aircrafts painted completely with our designation?
Yes.
- Were not American stars there?
They have white stars, and we have the red stars. Do not confuse it. Planes came with red stars. I do not know, where they did it, at the factory or somewhere else.
- Where there no cases that "Cobra" with white American stars flew to the USSR? Could not it be?
No. There also happened, that the planes came from the factory with drawings - jaws of pike or other fish, or mouth of the beast or tiger was drawn directly on the both sides of the fuselage. Beautifully. Different posters and signs were painted.
- Did not you repaint it?
No. We were not allowed to paint.
- Did such planes go to the Soviet Union?
Yes, they did. They came with drawings. But there were not many planes with pictures."

Regards,
   66misos

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Oleg,
this one

and this one

Regards
Massimo

[KL]

... Note already repainted late war USAF insignias on the fuselage:
...
They came to us from the factory with our (e.g. red) stars.
...
Planes came with red stars. I do not know, where they did it, at the factory or somewhere else.
- Where there no cases that "Cobra" with white American stars flew to the USSR? Could not it be?
No.

It looks that more L-L planes arrived in Soviet Union with USAAF markings already repainted by the Americans than previously thought.  From this interview it is clear that not only the planes that arrived through Iran, but also the Alsib planes had there red stars actually painted by the Americans.
All those profiles depicting Airacobras with USAAF blue disks and VVS red stars should be reassessed.

[66misos]

Hi KL,

IMHO blue circles could be more often at the hectic beginning, with old D versions, when L-L supplies were not fast enough. But lately, when production run on full throttle, they were rare.


Note already red star on the fuselage, same long-range external fuel tank gun console under left wing, sane as on photo in post above.

Regarding red stars via ASLIB see my first post in this thread
Regards,
      66misos

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Misos, hi Oleg
please have a look to these details of plane 2.



What do you think it could be?

Regards
Massimo

[66misos]

Hi Massimo,
there is no response at airforce.ru regarding those details. I have ho idea what it is and what colors are on the tail

I made another profile in the meantime, number "81" from 28GIAP of 5GIAD with the white band on the rear fuselage:

Serial no. is apparently painted on the tail, unfortunately is not recognizable on the poor quality photo.

However, there is visible also dark vertical band on the rudder - it looks like repainted original white band, similiar to plane "28" from the same unit, see http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1714.msg13987#msg13987


It looks like vertical band on the rudder was earlier 28GIAP identification mark, latter replaced by white band on the rear fuselage.
Regards,
    66misos

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Misos,
very interesting work.
Only, the blurried serial is aesthetically unpleasant. I would guess a serial on the base of the version, writing in the text that it is guessed. My impression is that it could end with 62.
Regards
Massimo

[66misos]

Hi Massimo,
I rather would not guess serial number. I preffer that way, it better reflects original photo of P-39 "81", although blurried serial is aesthetically unpleasant. May be my level of aesthetic is not high enough

Here is another profile from the same regiment, Ovsyannikov's "42":


It is updated profile from my post http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1714.msg13989#msg13989

Quotes from Ovsyannikov interview at http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1506.0
"In our regiment we had white spinners, and I think the rudders were also white. The stars on the wings? I don?t even remember where they were, but I think they were only on the bottom. The serial numbers remained on the fins, but I don?t remember their color. I remember one (tactical number) ?42. This was already after they had shot me down and I had changed aircraft.
In early May 1945 our regimet participated in bombing attacks on an enemy forces in the town Palmnicken? using 100 kg and 250 kg bombs."


I superimposed original photo with P-39 color profile to better see surface painting details on the Cobra next to (behind) Ovsyannikov?s Cobra ?42?:
-   position of the possible white band on fuselage is covered behing propeller blade of Ovsyannikov?s Cobra ?42?,
-   bottom part of the vertical white band on the rudder is visible, same as on Baranov?s P-39 ?28? ? so I decided for this alternative,
-   serial number is not visible.
Regards,
    66misos

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Misos,
interesting work, but the photo seems to show a much wider section of the rudder painted white. The red star on the fuselage is wider too.
About n.81, I've asked Oleg for a wider photo of it.
Regards
Massimo

[66misos]

Hi Massimo,
you are right. However, that partially covered Cobra is only indicative.
IMHO, it is important, that:
- serial number of Cobra "42" is not known (confirmed also by Konstantin Chirkin, one of autor of interview with Ovsyannikov, in personal post), but was there (Ovsyannikov himself: "...serial numbers remained on the fins..."),
- there is a lot of uncertainities regarding 28GIAP regimental marking, confirmed by M. Bykov in his post at airforce.ru forum,
- Ovsyannikov himself: "...we had white spinners, and I think the rudders were also white...",
- Ovsyannikov's "42" is 4-blades Cobra, most probably the new plane, that he received after he was shot down in previous one,
- from interview http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1714.msg14364#msg14364: "They (e.g. Cobras) came to us from the factory with our (e.g. red) stars.", while the red star on the fuselage of that covered Cobra is a big one, looks like painted in SU, not in USA.

IMHO, new Ovsyannikov's "42" had "standard" red stars painted in USA, had serial number on the tail, did not have white fuselage band, but did have something white on the tail. That "something white" could be either rudder completly white, or white band on rudder like on Cobra "28", or white band with two thin bands on sides like on the Cobra next to Cobra "28". Or nothing, or anything between. Significantly wider white band on the rudder could be acceptable compromise.
Regards,
   66misos

[66misos]

Hi,
here is a better picture of P-39 "81" fitted with three-blades propeller from my post above:


Serial number painted on the tail is long, e.g. 6 digits starting with ?4?, the last 3 digits seems to be ?461?, e.g. could be 44-xy461.
The only possibilities for S/N: 44-xy461 are:
1.)    P-39Q-25    44-32167 to 44-32666
2.)    P-39Q-25    44-70905 to 44-71104, but ?461? does not fit here,
3.)    P-39Q-30    44-71105 to 44-71504

?x? is fully repainted.
?y? is partially repainted, its right side is visible and seems to be solid, something like 1, 3, 8, 9, 0.
P-39Q-25 was fitted with a four-blades propeller, P-39Q-30 returned to three-blades propeller, so SN for Q-25 is not an option.

From this perspective the digit to the left from ?461? could be only ?1?, so serial number could be 44-71461, painted on the P-39Q-30 tail as 471461,

Regards,
    66misos

[66misos]

Hi,
both-side profile of P-39Q-30 "81" S/N: 44-71461 is here:




Note ring antena on the rear bottom fuselage.
regards,
    66misos