Massimo Tessitori
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« on: December 28, 2018, 09:40:44 AM » |
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Hi all here is a photo of what could be a Spanish I-16 with mouse grey overall, https://lamemoriaviva.wordpress.com/2011/04/10/la-aviacion-republicana-rompe-su-silencio/ as described in a thread on Britmodeller by Artie: The only known light grey russian planes arriving to Spain, were the first Polikarpov I-16 Type 5, wich arrived unpainted, with just a protective grey primer, but they were soon overpainted. That overall grey shade led to the nickname "Rata", given by the nationalist pilots when they first met the nimble russian fighters over Madrid. They used to fly at house tops level, and then pull up and fire their guns against the enemy bombers' bellies.
https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235047116-question-on-spanish-sb/Nice idea for a model or profile. Regards Massimo
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« Last Edit: December 28, 2018, 11:45:41 AM by Massimo Tessitori »
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righidan
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« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2018, 07:57:11 PM » |
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Dear Massimo, To the best of my knowledge, the photo is a fake, an heavily retouched image of an heavily retouched image that you can find in Typy Broni i Uzbrojenia 048-Samolot myśliwski I-16 representing a Khalkin Gol plane. At least, the photo in the Polish profile has a red star in a plausible position, while the “Spanish” photo has a dark strip just over the red star. Moreover, we have photos of one of the very first I-16 used in Spain, and it is in a standard green – blue (or grey/silver) camouflage. So, unless we discover new documents, and I am sorry to say that I really doubt it, we will have to do without grey Spanish Rata! And as you rightly say, “I am not aware of grey primers” Regards
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« Last Edit: December 30, 2018, 08:04:35 PM by righidan »
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Daniele
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2018, 08:26:35 PM » |
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Hi Daniele, thank you for the warning. The absence of the aiming device was suspect for a fighter in wartime, but now I see that the photo was employed and elaborated in many suspect ways, Maybe it was a silver I-16 of some aerobatic team or shown to some international meeting, if so the real photos should be available. Regards Massimo
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2018, 10:48:08 PM » |
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Hi Daniele, the answer from Arie on Britmodeller: According to J. Miranda, the first batch of 31 I-16 wich arrived to Spain in october, 1936, were overall light grey (some sources claim it to be aluminium paint, as already said), wich satin black cowlings. That was the common pattern for Moscow (1) and Gorki (21) workshops. Some contemporary Type 5 deployed in Manchuria had the same colour scheme. That first batch of 31 palnes was given fuselage numbers 1 to 31, having been properly identified 7, 9, CM-010, CM-011, 23 and 30 (no tall of them had the CM code added yet).
It's possible that the dark stripe in the tail wasn't red but black, aimed to conceal the original red stars. That pic was taken at Barajas, and according to some testimonies, they fought during the first battle of Madrid. It's possible that at that time, the gunsight and machine guns were still to be fitted.
The planes began to be overpainted in dark green/light blue from the 31st plane onwards, when the second batch of another 31 planes arrived in Cartagena in decembar, 1936. Regards Massimo
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« Last Edit: December 30, 2018, 10:58:48 PM by Massimo Tessitori »
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2018, 10:58:31 PM » |
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Hi Daniele, I would add that the photo of Typi Broni of silver plane 7 in Manchuria hasn't chances to be genuine: in the '30s Soviet planes had the star on the fuselage and the number on the rudder, not vice versa. Regards Massimo
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BLG
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« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2019, 09:29:52 PM » |
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According to J. Miranda, the first batch of 31 I-16 wich arrived to Spain in october, 1936, were overall light grey (some sources claim it to be aluminium paint, as already said), wich satin black cowlings. That first batch of 31 palnes was given fuselage numbers 1 to 31, having been properly identified 7, 9, CM-010, CM-011, 23 and 30
The planes began to be overpainted in dark green/light blue from the 31st plane onwards, when the second batch of another 31 planes arrived in Cartagena in decembar, 1936. RegardsMassimo Hi Massimo, I don't know who is J.Miranda, but he has not read any of the numerous books on Spanish war were the Gren /black/sky blue 9 of Bocharov (slain after capture) is photographed by Nationalist after its capture on 13 November , 1936Regards Bernard
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righidan
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« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2019, 03:58:29 PM » |
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Dear friends, J.Miranda was an author that, 30 years ago, published a couple of books on airplanes of the Spanish civil war. They were richly illustrated with drawings, but not particularly known for historical accuracy, as he depicted some planes that were never present in the conflict. So I do agree with Bernard that the history of the first I-16 in Spain being grey, is a fake news. I do also agree with Massimo, that the photo of the silver 7 in Manchuria is a fake, as the star is in the wrong position for the period. But looking for I-16 I happened by chance to find what could be the original photo of number 7: It is taken from the authoritative Jane’s all the world aircraft for 1938, page 236c. So we have another possibility, a captured airplane, and in that case the band on the tail could be black. I am still not completely convinced that it is not a retouched photo, as it does not show typical nationalist markings, but it makes more sense than the other two options. About the Bocharov body, while the gruesome story of a dismembered body parachuted is true, the body was shown to the international press and you can still find in Internet the photos of the case and of the body, the remnants belonged to the Italian pilot Primo Gibelli. Primo Gibelli aka José Antonio Galarza had an incredible life, and was the first Italian to receive the title of Hero of the Soviet Union. If you are interested in this episode of the Spanish Civil War, I suggest to read “El macabro cajón. La verdad sobre el derribo y muerte de Primo Gibelli” by Rafael Permuy López, in Treinta y seis relatos de la guerra del 36, 2006, pages 321-338. Not everything is clear, but the dismembered body was the result of an airplane crash, more than of human actions. You can find online information at the site : http://www.buscameenelciclodelavida.com/2014/11/primo-gibelli.html And about grey I-16 I could find only a couple of profiles, representing an I-16 during the Khasan lake battles, but no photos. But Polikarpov I-16 are decidely beautiful! Regards Daniele
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« Last Edit: January 05, 2019, 04:17:26 PM by righidan »
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Daniele
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2019, 06:40:18 PM » |
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Hi Daniele, thank you for sharing the result of your research about this plane. So, it looks possible that this plane was fully repainted by Nationalists. But I have to say that these markings are very atypical. Having to repaint it all, why haven't them introduced their standard markings and white rudder with S. Andrew's crosses? Why have they painted a number 7 as if it was an operative plane? I think that we should look for known prewar photos of Soviet prototypes or aerobatic teams to see if it could be an adaptation of one of them. The story of Gibelli is very crude, I wonder if Bocharov had the same destiny or there was some confusion between their names. The silver I-16 n.5 used on lake Hasan is very interesting, I hope that some photo will emerge on this subject. Regards Massimo
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Anton Petrov
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« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2021, 07:41:23 AM » |
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Great discussion:) Though, a sad one, and not only because of the deceased pilots mentioned, but because it's sad to know that the photo/profile of 'Black-7 might be a fake, or might have been accompanied by wrong info in the books which published it:( The "myth" about the 'GREY "rats" ' attacking Nationalist forces (hence "Rata") sounded pretty convincing:)
I think that the photo of Bocharov's I-16 (as BLG mentioned) which landed on the enemy's territory on the 13th of November, is a pretty good piece of evidence that the first I-16 were probably not painted 'Grey' (not on the upper surfaces anyway). 13th of November was the second day of battle action involving I-16s in the skies of Spain (if I am not mistaking). So Bocharov's plane pretty much shows what the first I-16s might have been painted like.
But still, it might be possible that first I-16s which arrived in Spain (on the 3rd-4th of November?), were grey. They were quickly assembled and given a coat of green paint, and were operational on the 8th November. If this was actually the case then it might help support the idea that at least the lower surfaces of these I-16s (Including Bacharov's plane) might have still been grey. In which case the story about I-16 being like 'grey rats' might be half true (since half of the planes were grey). But that's just a speculation of course.
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« Last Edit: January 06, 2022, 05:50:19 PM by Anton Petrov »
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2021, 08:27:32 AM » |
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Hi Anton, I think that the Republican I-16 with sand dotted camouflage was a fake too, a nationalist captured and repainted one with black bands that can pass for red on a bw photo. Eventually, 'mouse grey' let me think to German and nationalist planes with grau finish, so it could be a legend after that someone described a captured and repainted plane. Maybe it was repainted so for some days, seen and described by someone, then repainted with the camouflage. Who knows, I can't imagine other ways for the birth of a legend.
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Anton Petrov
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« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2022, 06:17:28 PM » |
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I think that the Republican I-16 with sand dotted camouflage was a fake too Hi Massimo. Do you mean this plane? I agree, makes sense to presume that it might have been repainted by the Nationalists like that (with patches and with black stripes). But still, even if it was repainted by the Nationalists (if its paint scheme was "made up/fake" ), it's still a nice looking paint scheme:) The photos are real, because there are many different photos of this airplane from different angles online, so the plane was really painted like that. If someone was thinking of drawing or making a scale model airplane with this paint scheme it would still be historically correct since this paint scheme did exist on that I-16. I am not 100% sure if the same thing can be said about the Black-7, maybe that photo of Black-7 was photo retouched and in reality that paint scheme didn't exist? Or maybe it did actually exist as a temporary "repaint" job. As you said- who knows!, lol:)
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« Last Edit: January 06, 2022, 06:23:31 PM by Anton Petrov »
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2022, 09:45:57 PM » |
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Hi Anton, very right, it is that plane. Only, it is likely that the real one had white and black markings, no any trace of red, purple and yellow. I don't know about plane 7, I would compare the photos to other ones with the same perspective and light finish to see if they have recycled some previous image. An original unretouched one has to exist, if it is not the Spanish captured one it has to be some aerobatic one maybe without numbers.
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Anton Petrov
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« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2022, 12:31:28 PM » |
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it is likely that the real one had white and black markings, no any trace of red, purple and yellow That's a very interesting observation Massimo. Good point! It makes sense. The tonality of the dark stripes is very similar in all the photos of this plane that I've seen. I would compare the photos to other ones with the same perspective and light finish to see if they have recycled some previous image Agree. Will keep an eye out for other photos with the same angle/lighting to see if maybe one was recycled/retouched to create 'Number 7'. Either way, would love to learn more about the 'Number-7' plane.
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