I-16 zhujkov plane 191 IAP leningrad summer 1941

[xan]

Hello everybody,
Afriend of pascal and mine want to do a Eduard I-16 type 17.
He doen't know much about VVS aircraft but he is a very serius modelers.
I indicated him of course this forum and indicated him the different opinions about VVS colours...
http://www.master194.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=61933&p=662166#p662166

He chooses this decoration:



I told him I didn't think this camouflage was real and try to know much about this plane.

it's the plane of zhujkov of the 191IAP in Leningrad in summer of 1941.

Pascal finds some pics of this plane:


this pic show us a very tired plane (the paint of the fuselage can be as tires as is the cowl one)
it's true that a diference of colour can be observ ahead the cockpit.
but it doesn't meen at all in my mind that there are two differents colours.
It can be the same colour tired or probably gasoline....


in this pics we see the white top of the tal , and a number but it can be can anyone




this is again zhujkov and behin his plane, but it's hard to know if it's the same plane...
if it is, we can see the fuselage with one colour.

of cours EP saw in that planes a two tone green camouflage:

and I think Eduard was influenced by this interpretation


To my opinion the plane is clearly paint in AIIz green (it can be other thing) and the paint is tired.

Do you know more pics of this plane ?
what is your opinion?

thinks

Xan



well, in the first pics it's real that there is a difference of colour

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Xan,
I think that it's really in two colors, but it's black over the base green. I don't think that the dark color is so extended on the plane how shown by those drawings.
Note the dark brush strokes on the landing gear doors.
Regards
Massimo

[KL]

this plane wasn't repainted in black -green scheme to comply with June 1941 directive!  We know this because it still has red stars on wing tops and lecks stars on the tailfin.
The plane has pre-war markings and probably original, factory applied, colours.

Factory scheme for Type 17 was AII "Protective" green upper surfaces and gray undersides.

I agree with Xan, plane is badly weathered.  Note how the paint is chipped from the propeller and engine cowling - probably a rocky airfield, maybe far north?

KL 

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Konstantin and Xan,
the front of the blades of prewar planes should be natural metal. If it is black, even if chipped, it is surely painted.
Besides, oval blotches of black are visible between the exhaust pipes. This is not a standard camouflage, it's simply a green plane that was blotched with some black.
Regards
Massimo

[KL]

OK!

Pilot's name is Grigoriy Sergeyevich Zhuikov (not to be confused with the Marshal of the Soviet Union Georgy Konstantinovich Zhukov!).

During the Winter War (1939-40) Zhuikov was with the 7th IAP.

At the time of German attack (June 1941) Zhuikov was with the 191st IAP as a squadron commander.  191st IAP defended Leningrad and Zhuikov scored 7 victories in September 1941 flying on I-16 fighters.

From Aug 1942 to Sept 1943 with 9th IAP on Hurricanes...

Your photos were taken in Sept 1941 during the defence of Leningrad:



Source:  http://airaces.narod.ru/all9/zhyikov.htm



АвиаМастер 2004-07


Cheers,
KL

[xan]

But Massimo why would the mechanic or the pilot put black paint if it was not the official rule? just for the pleasure of defy the NKVD?
they new how easy  it was to be a traitor to socialism motherland, don't you think ?
I agree a lot with konstantin when he says that personal initiativ was not welcome in those time.
Have we other exemples of black colored AIIz I-16 in this period ?
pascal tolds me the cowl could be black cause it's very dark. I'm not sure at all...
(however, thinks a lot for give your opinion of course )

Xan

[xan]

Oh kontantin great! the profile are just like I imagine the plane!!!
could the diference of colours have been made by gasoline ?

191st IAP defended Leningrad and Zhuikov scored 7 victories in September/Oct 1941 flying on I-16 fighters.

Eduard spoke about 17 victorys!

Xan

[KL]

Xan,
it's very simple:  on the first day of war, June 23 1941, it was ordered to camouflage planes.  The order specified following:

- to add black blotches on planes that were already painted in "Protective" green
- to repaint stars on upper wing surfaces!!!
- to add stars on tailfins

If you see stars on wing tops, the plane is still painted in pre-war scheme (solid green).  Why - we can only guess; the order wasn't received, they didn't have time to repaint planes, no paint.  Pilawskii would make up a good story there  

Cheers,
KL

[KL]

191st IAP defended Leningrad and Zhuikov scored 7 victories in September/Oct 1941 flying on I-16 fighters.

Eduard spoke about 17 victorys!

Zhuikov survived the war and his total was 13 individual victories + 4 group victories.
New research by M. Bikov gives 10+0 victories.

Cheers,
KL

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Xan and Konstantin,
please, have a look here and see how black mottlings were rare.
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/1941-43rep/1941-43repainted.html
Gasoline stripes should be only under the fuel tanks, and should go in vertical when the plane lies on the ground.
It would be interesting to know if the photo with the star on the wings is contemporary to the other ones and if it is of the same plane. However, there are other examples of planes that preserved the red stars on the camouflage, at least a MiG-3 and a Pe-8.
Regards
Massimo

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi,
an addition: if one wants, he can always make the model before it was mottled, as it appeared before the war.
Regards
Massimo

[KL]

Photo interpretation again....

What to do when you are limited with only two photos?





-  Some researchers prefer artistic license and to hide behind supposedly unregulated Soviet industry and chaos on frontline units.
-  Others think that it is better to rely on documents and other evidence.

If Zhuikov's I-16 was camouflaged with black blotches, chances that wing top stars were repainted would be over 95%.  Chances are also high, over 90%, that it would have a tailfin star  

Cheers,
KL

[KL]

Some good examples of June 1941 directive fullfiled in the field (in units):

[xan]

OK konstantin , I agree with you, but the argument of Massimo is heavy: we are not sure at all that the plane with the stars on the wongs is the same plane than the others pics.
Another thing: the "8" code.
two posibility:
- there is an other pic where the 8 code clearly appears
- the base was the second pic and, really, it can be any number... someone choose the "8" and all the profiles repeat the same thing (like it often happens with the profiles...)

I'm afraid we are in the second case...

Xan

[KL]

Hi Xan, 

There are only two options:

1. Plane was camouflaged with black fields as per June 1941 directive
2. Plane was still in pre-war scheme (solid green)

For case 1:  no stars on wing tops and additional star at the tail
For case 2: stars on wing tops and no stars on tailfin.

Pilawskii's Green-Dark Green is not an option. Especially not that diffused "tiger" scheme!

Cheers,
KL