Sovietwarplanes

Massimo -

I was very interested by your review of Miliaria i Fakty 28 - Migi Stalina, and I'd like to buy a copy. Can you tell us where it can be purchased? Thank you!

John Thompson

Hi John, :)
I am embarassed, but I don't know. I received a copy as a gift from a Polish correspondant. Sorry. :-[
Massimo
P.S. could you post some scans of the decals sheets of the La-5 kits you have, please? I would be very interested in this.

I think that is available at some military store...

There goes a citation of my post from past:
I think that buying the original Russian book is a better undertaking.
But if one is anxious:
http://historyton.pl/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=74&products_id=3304
http://ajaks.home.pl/ - ordering: http://ajaks.home.pl/howto.htm

Hi Marcin, :)
how do you do?
You're right, that book has some things that should be discussed.
About AMT colors: "Colors of the falcons" of Jiri Hornat quotes the use of AMT colors to 1941. I am not in condition to confirm  or deny this, but most MiG-3s seem to show low-contrast camouflage, much less contrasted than other types.
Massimo

Massimo
I'm not very fine but thanks ;).
Basing on E. Pilawski's book I have some doubts about AMT on MiGs (decision of introduction in fall of 1941, the first deliveries winter 1942). But I also can't confirm or deny it. The Polish book doesn't contain bibliography so I can't find any resources of this info. The author wrote that all MiGs had AMT-4 (wooden parts) and A 24 m (metal parts)/AMT-6 (A 26 m.) and AMT-7 camouflage - with possibility of Blue A II.

Hi Marcin, :)
I wonder if this can explain the difference in the shade of green on wooden and metal parts. Observing photos of wrecks, I've the idea that new planes didn't show great difference, and the contrast increased with the ageing of color.
This is not detectable on camouflaged MiGs, but I don't know if this is masked by the disruptive effect of black bands or if the green has been changed.
Another thing: the shade of blue of the rear fuselage appears darker in photos. This difference is not detectable between the metal and wooden part of wing undersurfaces. Who knows if they utilized a darker shade with full intention?
Massimo

The precise knowledge about the date of introduction of AMT into aviation industry would solve this mystery.

Hi,  :)
For Lavochkins, it should be in 1942. Finnish reports write about a change to darker and more camouflaging green on LaGG wrecks.
I don't remember the person that described this in a post of some forum.
Massimo

So it matches the date of introduction AMT to aviation industry given by Pilawski. But at this time MiGs were out of line...

Hi, :)
yes; besides the same strange shades of early MiGs appear on Yak 2/4 built in 1939/40 in the same factory. I think that the green looked uniform when the plane was new, and then faded to light on metalic parts, and perhaps to dark on wooden parts.
Massimo

Hi
It may be also connected to the primers used on metal and wooden parts.

Hi, :)
yes, A reaction with the primier is a possible explanation.
I think that there is yellow nitro putty on the fabric covering wooden parts.
About metal parts... I don't know if there is a primier, or what color it is.

Massimo

Metal primers:
ALG-1 - yellow
ALG-5 grey-green

Hi all,

As a newcomer with little knowledge beyond what I have found on the internet, I find the discussion of primers intersting but also confusing.  I am working on a MiG-3 just now, so my confusion is more than as a casual observer.

Information and models I have seen lead me to believe that the "Wood Aehrolak" primer AE-10 was used on at lest some early MiG-3's on the inside of the rear fuselage section, with "Industrial Metal Primer" being used at least some of the time on the cockpit areas.  My subject is early MiG-3 Yellow/blue 9, active in the spring and summer of 1941 on the Moscow front.

My supposition was, then, that the external wood surfaces would also have received the wood primer, while the metal areas would have gotten a coat of the light blue-green industrial primer shade.  At least that seems to be a likely combination in the cockpit and interior of the rear of the plane.

Now I have two new metal primer colors introduced, plus the yellow wood putty Massimo mentioned.  I had thought I would do a thin coat of a light brown shade (for wood) on the wooden bits and silver on the metal, at least on the leading edges.  I want to follow that with a thin coat of primer (for wood or metal as appropriate), then the paint shades.  When I weather the plane and smooth off the paint on the leading edges, you will see paint, primer, and natural surface if I do the preparation well.  Only now, I do not know what shades to use, beyond the silver for bare metal and a "wood" color.  What should I do?  Which of these colors is correct, or most likely correct?  All is confusion now!

Thanks in advance for any help you can offer.

Cheers, Jim

Hi Jim,  :)
I suggest to use only bare metal on wingroots, because this is the only damage of paint that is nearly ever visible on most MiG-3s due to the feet of pilots and technicians, forthemost on the left side. A small amount of metal could be on the locks of the engine panels. The adhesion of paint on the wooden parts is good. Forgot primers on the outside of metal parts, it is not clear if they were and which were their shade, but photos don't encourage to smooth off paint on the leading edges.
Massimo

Hi Massimo,

As soon as I read your response, that aspect clicked into place in my thinking.  The available pictures here and elsewhere do seem to show very little deterioration of the paints from either weathering or harsh conditions.  That certainly makes my paint job easier!

One additional question about Yellow 9, please?  Do we know that the summer of 1941 is correct for the pictures we have of this plane?  Unless it was late summer/fall, I am not so sure that field commanders were choosing to do field repaints within the first couple of months of operations.  Or am I missing something?  Could this airplane have been photographed later in the fall?  It just seems to me that even in combat, military decision making regarding something like better camouflage via painting is not arrived at very quickly.  Please note that I am playing a bit of a guessing game here, based on much too small an amount of information.  I am learning however, but mainly I seek clarity to understand this particular airplane.  How often I seem to pick difficult subjects!

Thanks, Jim

have you seen this ?

http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/DigitalModeling/monthly_profile/aug06/aug06.htm

Hi, :)
unfortunately, all what I know on the date and unit is already written on the page of the profile, and is from a Russian book.
On my part, I think that it's easier that non-standard camouflages were made on early planes that were paint overall green, than on later planes that were already camouflaged.?
However, I suppose that such camouflages were improvised at a low hierarchical level, in brief time. A lot of Russian planes were destroyed on the ground, so this justifies such doing.


I've already commented this on a previous post.
http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=121.0

I've received an information from Oleg that has interviewed a pilot:


Massimo

I provided the link for Jim[/b] in case he had not already found it.
it was not meant for you Massimo, as I assumed you had already seen it.
please do not be offended , I do not mean to be rude.

[/font]

You did it well. I have just given the second link for him, just in case that he had not already read it.
Massimo :)

Massimo and DGM,

Thank you gentlemen for the additional inputs; I had not seen Pilawski's alternate take on this aircraft nor the other link, so both add ingredients to the stew!

I must say that I was wrong regarding the time of year the aircraft was flying or when the pictures were taken.  I read about various MiG-3 pilots flying the plane during the summer with the canopies removed, then read about the lack of a canopy for this aircraft when the pictures were taken, and added those facts together incorrectly.  More of a fall timeframe makes better sense to me, and Massimo's thumbnail link clearly says "late 1941."

Massimo's additional information from a pilot is also very suggestive; I have been thinking of using the blue-green primer for most of the cockpit interior plus the blue gray wood primer behind that (although in this scale, little of it will be seen).  This is based on Peter Vil's great 1/32 scale build up.  I had decided to paint the main instrument panel black with a light instrument cluster- it looks like the underside blue is a better choice than the primer color.  Massimo, your color cutaway drawing of the fuselage indicates that underside blue was also on the inside of the fuselage panels, with the cockpit tube structure in the blue-green.  Do I have that correct, or nearly so?

Again please excuse all the questions, but even though the scheme is hard to determine, I want the details to be as right as possible.  I also expect to post some more photos over the weekend.

Thanks again, Jim

Hi, :)
I think that light blue is a good choice for the inside of fuselage panels visible through the cockpit, but I suspect that the tubes were painted of some dark color, green or grey.
Massimo