Sovietwarplanes

Scroll down to "Bubnov's" post dated March 4:
http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_16778_start_60.html

Looks like Amodel is still keeping the VVS faith! Someone wanted new 1/72 kits of the Su-1 and Su-3 - looks like he'll get them. Two more to add to my 2011 must-buy list... ;)

John

Thank you for the link, John!  I was just wondering about an Su-1 - cool-looking aeroplane; I'll no doubt pick me up one.  I find that Tu-116 very interesting - can an early Tu-95 be far behind?  That they did the Bristol Brabazon is pretty amazing.  Ken Duffey (Flankerman) has one at his site - http://www.flankers-site.co.uk/modl_brabazon.html.  Not that it has anything remotely to do with the VVS or the Soviets, but it'd be great to see a Saro Princess.

Regards,

Jason

Hi John,
Su-1 and 3... nice.
It looks that my older Polish kit will never be built. They are very rough, Amodel will do better.
I expected some R-10, because they just did a similar plane, but...
Regards
Massimo

I hope you are right, and Amodel doesn't just reissue the old Su-1 and Su-3 kits you're talking about! I've been a bit distrustful of them since they did this with the KP La-5FN, instead of creating a new mold. The KP kit is certainly a good one, but... ;)

On the other hand, regarding the R-10, Amodel are good at providing unannounced surprises sometimes, so maybe there's still a chance!

John

Just received Su-1 and Su-3.Nice little kits indeed.Now i only need  some  plans to put them on.
Too good to be true!

This might help:
http://www.airwar.ru/other/draw/su1.html

This is the pinned information thread from Scalemodels.ru regarding the Su-1 and Su-3:
http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_30238.html

Here's a couple of threads from Scalemodels.ru; one is about the Siga 1/72 kit, the other is the Aer Moldova 1/48 one, but there may be something useful in them for you. I was sure I remembered a thread specifically discussing the Amodel kits, but maybe I was thinking of the pinned thread.
http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_23548.html
http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_4090.html

Building the Siga one:
http://scalemodels.ru/articles/3010-MM-Siga-model-1-72-su-1---pervenec-okb-sukhogo.html

Give the auto-translation thing a few seconds to start up to see them in English. Enjoy! ;)

John

Welcome to the site and glad to hear the Sukhois are nice kits!  I'm tempted to buy them as I think they're sharp-looking aeroplanes.  Unfortunately I only have about 50 unbuilt VVS subjects in line before them.  Then again, what's a few more unbuilt VVS kits?

Regards,

Jason

LOL, my thoughts exactly...but i can't help myself.

As I hoped, Amodel are continuing with their surprises - according to today's Modelimex newsletter, the latest 1/72 releases include not only the previously-announced Yak-200 and Yak-210, but also a Yak-25B, and in the Future Releases, a MiG E-7PD (fantastic!), as well as a couple of Japanese DC-2/-3 lookalikes.

John

John, those aren't DC-3 lookalikes, but licence-built DC-3's, known as "Tabby" during the war.  It's interesting that Amodel would come out with the L2D before the Li-2 - perhaps an Li-2 is in the works, even a night bomber!  Authentic Decals are coming out with a 1/72nd scale set for Soviet B-25's - probably worth a purchase.  Although it has nothing to do with the VVS, I also see that AZ are coming out with the Super Mystere - very nice.

Regards,

Jason

and speaking of the Li-2; I'd love to see a conversion in 72d AND 48th for the common C-47 kits, or even just that Soviet made turret that graced the Li-2s and many of the A-20s. If not complete kits, then at least conversion sets with the turret.

I agree, especially about the A-20's.

Regards,

Jason

John , thnx for the links...as soon as i can, i shall putlittle Su on the plans.
Last week i  took a chance and bought I-17 TSKB-19, and i wasn't dissapointed.Its way ahead of the old
I-17 of Amodel.
It is something completely new, and done  quite nice, almost Tamigawa quality.
I'll try to  obtain  one more for kitbash because old one is very crude.Difference is  landing gear position, and  nose, as i  remember correctly.
By the way i also ordered  new I-185, and ill keep you posted.

TsKB-19 of Amodel? Very nice plane! I've completed recently the old model, that is weak particularly for the canopy. I hope that the new one will have the choice between that of 2nd and of 3rd prototype, so one can use the first one to replace the old canopy without sacrifying a model.
Differences are wider than the landing gear and nose, I fear. The dorsal chord is deeper, at least on the third prototype. The rudder is slightly different, but can be modified easily. I suppose that one can recycle the horizontal surfaces of tail, the upper part of wings, the internal details and few other things. However I fear that a kitbash could be nearly as difficult as improving the old kit that, although crude, is fairly accurate.
Regards
Massimo

Massimo, new one I-17 has  butifully casted  canopy,  ill try to make vacu copies to use on older types of I-16. ;D
I also fear that  kitbash would be quite an enterprise.

Vaku copies? Good idea.
So, it has only the forward-sliding canopy of the second prototype?
Regards
Massimo

Not quite true. All the new sets of Su-1 Su-3, TSKB-19 made a very rude. There are serious inaccuracies. Surface models worked very primitive. With numerous defects, scratches, damages. Characteristic sagging fabric covering made very primitive and rough. The pointing rough and uneven. Parts fit together poorly. So to Tamiya or Hasegawa, very, very far away. In fact it is rough blanks for a very long completion.

We have too very different opinions here so it looks like we need to see some posted pictures of the models in question, or at least the sprues, so we can judge for ourselves.  Musa, one thing you have to remember is that most of us are simple modellers, not a master craftsman and scratch-builder like you, so maybe we're a little more forgiving as long as the shapes are accurate.  One thing's for certain; neither Hasegawa nor Tamiya are going to be coming out with these kits anytime soon.

Regards,

Jason

My thoughts exactly, learstang...if anyone is interesting, i can either email, or post photos of  these model kits.

@ Massimo...yes, and i can say this is best cast i have seen of this forward skliding canopy.

Yes Jason, that's why I expressed my point of view. Because skreych-builder will be easier to bring these models than the modeler. And my position is not at all anti-advertising Amodel. On the contrary in this model has a number of stunning models performed very well and with a good study of the surface. I have a feeling that very Amodel hurry to have time to release as much as possible models of any kind of quality. At least I have seen before from all the latest new models, most made at very low levels. There is a word of Russian: "halyava".

Actually, i think that people who are interested in Russian aviation have very limited supply of Su-3 and Su-1...namely one, and that model kits are quite decent.Comparing it to  Firefox Yak-28 or some "icantrememberwhatmanufacturer" Yak-15, they are Tamigawa to me.

Here's my review of Amodel's new I-17:

http://scalemodels.ru/articles/4188-obzor-Amodel-1-72-i-17-ckb-19bis.html (http://scalemodels.ru/articles/4188-obzor-Amodel-1-72-i-17-ckb-19bis.html)

The automatic translation is very hard to make sense of, so here is the bottom line. The model is quite crude, all the surface features (panel lines, hatches, fabric skin) probably need to be redone, as well as the small parts. Regarding its accuracy, even taking into consideration the fact that there are no correct drawings of TsKB-19, the model still leaves much to be desired. The fuselage shape especially will require some corrections - cylinder fairings on the cowling are too bulky, the cross-sections are wrong, the spinner is too long, and so on.

In my opinion, the model could have been done much better, and is actually a step back for Amodel. It looks like they changed their priorities lately, putting emphasis on quantity instead of quality. Which is too bad.

Thanks for that information, Evgeny, and welcome to Sovietwarplanes.com! I was so impressed with the quality of the Amodel Yak-9U, Yak-9P, and Yak-3/VK107A when they were first released (even if the nose may be a bit too short on the Yak-9 kits), it's very disappointing to hear that they're not doing so well on their more recent kits. Amodel is a hard company to understand, or to predict what will happen next! ;)

(Your review on Scalemodels.ru is excellent, by the way; the photos show very well the surprisingly poor quality of the kit.)

All the best;
John

Spaseeba for the link, Eugeny, and welcome to the site, indeed!  The more English/Russian speakers we have on this site, the better.  I see now what Musa was talking about.  The surface detail is definitely not the greatest.  I recently purchased the Amodel Ar-2 and what struck me about that kit was how amazingly detailed the surface was, with each rivet represented (thankfully as recessed, even if that's not entirely accurate, it's preferable from a modelling standpoint than raised rivets), and each panel line and access panel.  It is disappointing to see Amodel apparently regress in this area.  I don't necessarily expect ease of assembly from Amodel, but I do expect accuracy in shape and surface detail.  Let's hope they will get back to improving the quality of their kits, and not become slaves to the almighty dollar (or rouble, or euro, etc.).

Regards,

Jason

You've opened my eyes , Eugeny...so, almost everything has to be done from the scratch.

John, Jason, thanks. Glad if this info is useful.



Indeed, Yak's and Ar-2 are great, both done on an entirely different level, and it is sad to see that level decline in some of their last kits.


Well, I wouldn't say everything, but it will definitely require a lot of work. Of course, it depends on how important accuracy is to you (if the word "accuracy" applies here - after all, what's left of TsKB-19bis is 4 photos and a few contradicting drawings). Probably, a shortened spinner and new engine cylinder fairings (thinner and spaced farther apart) will go a long way in making this model look more like I-17. Correcting fuselage cross-sections is far more difficult. Not to mention surface detail that needs to be redone... Not an easy build for sure.

Hi,
are you sure that the spinner is too long for the third prototype, represented in the reviewed kit? The profile shown in the review is that of the first prototype, Tskb-15, and has many differences, including a shorter spinner.
Years ago, I collected something on this page. http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/I-17/convert.html (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/I-17/convert.html) I know that some things are obsolete now, as the red tail suggested by the profile of Letecti Kosmonautika, but can still be useful.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,


I have actually included two profile comparisons in my review, one with TsKB-15 (first prototype) drawing from an old "Modelist-Konstruktor" magazine, and another one with a drawing from "Aviatsiya" magazine, which represents TsKB-19bis, the third prototype. Of course, TsKB-15 differs from TsKB-19 and -19bis in several areas, including  spinner, but I decided to include the comparison with TsKB-15 drawings because they seem much more reliable than the ones from "Aviatsiya". Regarding the spinner, as you can see, it's too long when put against TsKB-19 drawings from "Aviatsiya" (http://scalemodels.ru/modules/myarticles/img_4188_1307862813_geometry_left_aviatsiya.jpg.html), and of course, there are photos, such as this one (http://postimage.org/image/ulnnew84/), which show the same.


Of course, I am familiar with your page and have used it many times. In fact, recently I've been trying to put together all known photos of I-17 (here (http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_p_519260.html#519260)), and took some of them from your page. I hope you don't mind. :) Currently I am trying to piece together a better drawing of TsKB-19 based on a new material (http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_p_508048.html#508048), which became available recently. 

Hi Eugeny,
I agree that the spinner is too long, even if probably less than what appears on the drawings of aviatsiya that are visibly wrong over the nose. When I adapted drawings for that page, I based on some drawings that were probably derived from those of Modelist Konstructor, and keep only vague inspirations from those of Aviatsia.
You made a good work by collecting those photos. Don't mind, my scans are collected here and there too.
Regards
Massimo

These are drawings by Yury Guglya, published in "Aviatsiya i vremya" magazine and in his book "Single Engined Fighters of VVS RKKA 1930-1945". They mostly depict TsKB-15 and are clearly based on earlier drawings from "Modelist-Konstruktor" and, therefore, appear to be fairly accurate. However, the profiles of TsKB-19 and TsKB-19bis from these drawings are much less reliable, since they ignore many differences between 15/19/19bis, such as the cylinders fairing shape, lower cowling shape, canopy (which is different on all three aircraft by the way) and so on. IMHO, the TsKB-19/bis profiles from "Aviatsiya" look more convincing than Guglya's drawings, at least in depicting the differences between -15 and -19, although they have issues too.

Hi Eugeny,
I've modified the profile of the nose and of the lower part of rudder, as visible on photos.
For what I have seen on photos, a limit of the new kit is that it doesn't allow to show the coolers in the characteristic downed position.
Regards
Massimo

I noticed that, and the resulting drawing is definitely better than the original. But I think there's more to it. I tried to look at the differences between three I-17's cowlings here (http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_p_492842.html#492842), and it seems that all three have slightly different shapes. I think my picture illustrates it. The most important difference is in the lower cowling - for TsKB-19 it should be a little  deeper than in your drawing. The upper area is slightly different too, at least in TsKB-19 (hard to say about TsKB-19bis, beacause of the poor quality of the photo). As I have already mentioned, there are also differences in  cylinder fairings (they are much shorter on 19/bis). Some cowling panel shapes are different, as is the cockpit door. A lot of subtle differences. :)


Yes, it looks that way. Although I think it is the least of our troubles with that kit. :)

By the way, another Amodel's error, that I forgot to mention in the review - it looks like all I-17's had a retractable tail skid, at least this walkaround of TsKB-15 (http://walkarounds.airforce.ru/avia/rus/polikarpov/i-17/index.htm) and the archive drawings of TsKB-19 clearly show that. Not sure about TsKB-19bis, but I would speculate that this feature was also retained on this version.

Hi Eugeny,
 
Are you sure that it is retracted? It looks bent on a side, The first I-17 ended his first flight with a bad landing, perhaps the piece was broken on that occasion or later. I think that it had the possibilty to bend slightly rearwards to adsorb shocks, but it was hurted too strongly.
I've observed the photos, and I have to agree that the cowling is slightly different between 19 and 19bis, Besides the canopy of 19 is slightly higher than that of 15, and so it has to be its fuselage back.
I wonder if there is a reliable way to decide if the plane was painted red or green. The lack of stars suggests red. But the dark glossy color with unpainted nose (the first configuration) suggests the colors of I-3, that is (probably) green.
Regards
Massimo

I think we can be certain that retractable skid was installed on, or at least planned for TsKB-19. It can be proven by this fragment of TsKB-19 general layout drawing from Polikarpov design bureau archive:

(http://s4.postimage.org/2f7kneuhw/Ts_KB_19_skid.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2f7kneuhw/)

I haven't seen any photos of either I-17 variant where tail skid is clearly visible. The best TsKB-19 photo from Paris has some unfortunate plant obscuring the area of interest. However, the tail skid of the surviving TsKB-15, although significantly damaged, still looks similar to the one on TsKB-19 drawing. So, I think we can assume that the skid was retractable on TsKB-15 and -19 and - probably - on bis as well.


Well, after following numerous discussions about determining colors from black-and-white photographs I can say with certainty that no, we can not be sure if it was red or green. :) I am not an expert on Soviet colors, but it seems to me that red is more plausible. It was a somewhat common color for experimental aircraft (for example, Polikarpov's I-15 and I-16 prototypes were painted red, as well as TsKB-15). I-3 was painted blue on the undersides, which was a standard scheme at that time. But on TsKB-19bis there is no visible demarcation between green and blue, and I don't think any Soviet aircraft of that era were painted green overall. Anyway, nothing can be proven here, but for me red seems more probable.

Hi Eugeny,
it looks really retractable. I am surprised.

Isn't there any textual source of that age about painting of those prototypes? I have seen many all-green prewar prototypes on magazines, but I don't know if it was right. I suppose that a green prototype should have a red star visible on photos.
Regards
Massimo

Profiles in magazines are probably wrong (result of straight photo interpretation).

Prototypes didn't necessarily have to have red stars.  Most prototypes were painted like racers, or painted like "Krasnaya Pyaterka" airshow planes -  overall red.

(http://airwar.ru/image/idop/fww1/i14/i14-6.jpg)

(http://airwar.ru/image/idop/fww2/i15/i15-2.jpg)

(http://airwar.ru/image/idop/fww2/i15/i15-5.jpg)

(http://gorodskoy.gorod.tomsk.ru/uploads/25215/1247556604/tskb12vodvoretskb.jpg)

(http://gorodskoy.gorod.tomsk.ru/uploads/25215/1247556604/tskb12rajttsiklonf_3.jpg)

Hi Konstantin,
I suppose dark cherry red. The I-15 looks darker of the color of the red star inscribed in the circle. I have seen color photos of pieces of the 'moskva' DB-3 that are painted in two shades of red, normal and dark.
Regards
Massimo

TsKB-30 "Moskva" part from http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww2/b/374/1/0/32_a1

(http://img.wp.scn.ru/camms/ar/374/pics/1_32_a1.jpg)

Here is the second piece.
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/mark-colors/O-1140051036-ufKXW8z@.jpg)
Regards
Massimo

Massimo, do you have more photos of TsKB-30 parts???

Cherry red is a nonstandard colour.  IMHO the plane was painted in A-13 red to look like the "red banner" or "red star".  Sometimes engine necelles of this plane were depicted as blue - maybe they were painted in darker shade of red and that is where your part is coming from????

(http://www.airwar.ru/image/i/cw1/ckb30-i.jpg)

(http://multiply.com/mu/miscou/image/1:dlmiscou/photos/9/600x600/1/28641-2-56.jpg?et=C%2B96Sht3JzP93KXYCXTOQw&nmid=193163219)

Cheers,
KL  

Could the semi-circular cutout in the dark red piece be where the main wheel protruded?  By the way, I have seen photographs of a pre-production IL-2 single-seater in an overall glossy paint scheme, probably A-19F and AII Z (Green).

Regards,

Jason

Hi Konstantin and Jason,
both photos were posted on the old Airwarfare forum and quoted as from the same plane, the Moskva. On the bw photos than I saw then, I had the impression that all the plane was cherry red, except for the engine cowlings that were red. This is not the same impression of the redraw photo posted here.
I suppose that the circular cutout has something to do with the shape of retracted wheel and was from behind the bays, but I don't know well this plane. I wasn't able to localize the other panel, perhaps one can try with a good line drawing.
I have still the whole topic on my hd and some photos of the plane, but they are not decisive. The first look is that of a uniformly-colored plane. Perhaps the film doesn't distinguish between usual red and cherry red.
Regards
Massimo

When photos are better reproduced, the engine necelles are clearly darker:

(http://lib.rus.ec/i/69/276969/pic_41.jpg)

(http://lib.rus.ec/i/69/276969/pic_43.jpg)

Similar record plane "Ukraina"

(http://lib.rus.ec/i/69/276969/pic_45.jpg)

From:  http://lib.rus.ec/b/276969/read

Cheers,
KL

Thank you, now it's clear.
Massimo

A little more on the I-17 tail skid mystery. Our colleague Mikhail aka mal16 has taken a few pictures of the area in question in the Chkalov museum. Here they are:

(http://s1.postimage.org/2zwpfzjno/DSC_0026.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2zwpfzjno/) (http://s1.postimage.org/2zwr3iw5g/DSC_0027.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2zwr3iw5g/) (http://s1.postimage.org/2zwsr28n8/DSC_0028.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2zwsr28n8/) (http://s1.postimage.org/2zwuell50/DSC_0029.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2zwuell50/)

Thank you Eugeny, and thanks to Mikhail.
Massimo