John Thompson
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« Reply #330 on: August 18, 2010, 11:04:40 PM » |
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LaGG-3 from ebay.de - another one that has a light-coloured band on the rear fuselage; when you enlarge the image and increase the brightness, you can see the tail star, but no identification number. Unfortunately the resolution is poor, but I almost believe I see "kill marking" stars around the tail star, near the edge of the fin and rudder, and there also appears to be an inscription ahead of the cockpit, or maybe it's only exhaust stains! The two-colour green/black camouflage can also be seen. John
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« Last Edit: August 18, 2010, 11:08:01 PM by John Thompson »
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mholly
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« Reply #331 on: August 22, 2010, 01:25:06 AM » |
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Thank you Konstantin! Your answers confirm what I thought - AMT-1 was the only brownish colour ever used on Il-2's, and it was actually a greyish-tan to tan colour. I still wonder where the myth of that dark brown colour originated - from misinterpretations of black and white photographs I suppose, as for example people mistaking a faded AMT-6 Black for dark brown, as may have also happened with the mythical Dark Green on Il-2's.
Regards,
Jason
Actually there was another brown paint developed, sometime in 1940, called "tabachnyi" (tobacco). It was tested on several I-16, I-153 and SB-2s together with some other experimental paints (orange, cream...) in an effort to develop new, most effective camouflage. Considering the time frame it must have been nitro-cellulose paint of AII family. Since the new camo scheme was not adopted this paint never made it to mass production and standard application on any type of VVS aircraft. Cheers, Mario
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learstang
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« Reply #332 on: August 22, 2010, 06:22:15 PM » |
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Actually there was another brown paint developed, sometime in 1940, called "tabachnyi" (tobacco). It was tested on several I-16, I-153 and SB-2s together with some other experimental paints (orange, cream...) in an effort to develop new, most effective camouflage. Considering the time frame it must have been nitro-cellulose paint of AII family. Since the new camo scheme was not adopted this paint never made it to mass production and standard application on any type of VVS aircraft. Cheers, Mario
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Thank you, Mario! I had forgetten about that experimental brown. Perhaps the existence of this paint contributed to the myth of the brown paint. Still, how could people take an experimental colour from 1940 and extrapolate that to be a standard paint used throughout the GPW? And you still see it used in profiles and kit/decal instructions! I think it's more than time to bury that myth.
Regards,
Jason
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"I'll sleep when I'm dead."
- Warren William Zevon
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #333 on: August 22, 2010, 07:30:58 PM » |
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Hi Jason I suppose that the old belief in brown/green camo hasn't nothing to do with scarcely known experimental camouflages. It could be an extrapolation from the British camo, or based on a misunderstandment of faded wrecks with green/brown/grey camo, or on some badly restored planes that were considered as original. Massimo
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mholly
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« Reply #334 on: August 23, 2010, 04:50:50 AM » |
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Still, how could people take an experimental colour from 1940 and extrapolate that to be a standard paint used throughout the GPW? That's a great question for certain Mr.Pilawskii! And you still see it used in profiles and kit/decal instructions! I think it's more than time to bury that myth I read somewhere that in late 60th (?) British authors Green and Svanborough gained some (limited) access to information about VVS camo standards in Soviet Union. This could have been misinterpreted somehow (incomplete, language bareer...?) and "artistic license" ruled ever since. Vakhlamov and Orlov's research published 13+ years ago did not confirm any other standard brown paint but AMT-1. Unfortunatelly it never got audience (language bareer) in the Western hemisphere. Cheers, Mario
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #335 on: August 23, 2010, 02:32:03 PM » |
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Vakhlamov and Orlov's research published 13+ years ago did not confirm any other standard brown paint but AMT-1. Unfortunatelly it never got audience (language bareer) in the Western hemisphere. Hi Mario, By the way, you started to improve an automatic translation of Orlov's work published on Aviakollectia on last november, if I remember well. Has the improving work proceeded since then? It would be nice to publish a good translation. Massimo
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learstang
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« Reply #336 on: August 23, 2010, 06:45:10 PM » |
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Vakhlamov and Orlov's research published 13+ years ago did not confirm any other standard brown paint but AMT-1. Unfortunatelly it never got audience (language bareer) in the Western hemisphere. Hi Mario, By the way, you started to improve an automatic translation of Orlov's work published on Aviakollectia on last november, if I remember well. Has the improving work proceeded since then? It would be nice to publish a good translation. Massimo Yes, Mario, I'll second that. I'd love to see any translation(s) of Mr. Orlov's work(s). Your point is well taken on artistic licence. You could also call it laziness on the part of some illustrators, who just copy someone else's work without actually looking at photographs. As an example, there is a semi-famous 37mm-armed Il-2 called "Red 28", after the bort. I've seen that incorrectly portrayed as an arrow (Okay - that might be a misinterpretation of the photographs), but also as a straight-winger, without the cannons! Obviously, the artist who portrayed it without the cannons never saw a photograph of the plane in question. You're probably correct, Massimo, about the dark brown being a misinterpretation of faded wrecks and badly restored planes (which has contributed to bad colour profiles). You may also be correct, Mario, about Green and Swanborough misinterpreting Soviet camouflage information. Regards, Jason
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"I'll sleep when I'm dead."
- Warren William Zevon
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Apex1701
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« Reply #337 on: August 24, 2010, 01:24:28 AM » |
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Old habits are hard to change. In Scale aviation modeler for august 2010 there's an ad for Airfix showing a 1/72 Yak-9D with green/brown camo One's is wondering what was the research done for the kit Jean
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John Thompson
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« Reply #338 on: August 24, 2010, 02:02:19 AM » |
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Colour photo of Yak-3; don't know if it's original, "colorized", or maybe even the result of some kind of CGI/Photoshop shenanigans - I found it on Scalemodels.ru: John
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #339 on: August 24, 2010, 07:08:23 AM » |
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Hi John, it gives the idea to be a screenshoot from some good flight simulator Massimo
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learstang
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« Reply #340 on: August 24, 2010, 10:20:30 PM » |
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Old habits are hard to change. In Scale aviation modeler for august 2010 there's an ad for Airfix showing a 1/72 Yak-9D with green/brown camo One's is wondering what was the research done for the kit Jean Jean, unfortunately I'm sure it was the same kind of research that is done with too many Soviet kits - they base their colours off of outdated/incorrect colour profiles without doing any further research. So the old myths keep being perpetuated. Regards, Jason
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"I'll sleep when I'm dead."
- Warren William Zevon
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John Thompson
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« Reply #341 on: August 29, 2010, 10:03:24 PM » |
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Some details of the I-153, from scalemodels.ru: http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=Tsv0lKJThis was in a recent post in the pinned I-153 thread; as nearly as I can understand from the Babel Fish translation of the related text in the post, it seems to have something to do with radio installation. John
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learstang
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« Reply #342 on: August 30, 2010, 04:27:51 AM » |
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Some details of the I-153, from scalemodels.ru: http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=Tsv0lKJThis was in a recent post in the pinned I-153 thread; as nearly as I can understand from the Babel Fish translation of the related text in the post, it seems to have something to do with radio installation. John Thank you John, for the link! As a matter of fact, I'm waiting on the Amodel I-153 kit. How similar is this to the old Heller kit (is it the same)? The same inaccuracies (or new ones)? I'm familiar with Amodel in general, so I know the kits can be a little rough, although they seem to be accurate enough. I don't mind doing a little bit of work, as long as I wind up with a kit that actually looks like the aeroplane it's meant to represent. Regards, Jason
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"I'll sleep when I'm dead."
- Warren William Zevon
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #343 on: August 30, 2010, 07:21:43 AM » |
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Hi Jason, As a matter of fact, I'm waiting on the Amodel I-153 kit. How similar is this to the old Heller kit (is it the same)? The same inaccuracies (or new ones)? I'm familiar with Amodel in general, so I know the kits can be a little rough, although they seem to be accurate enough. I don't mind doing a little bit of work, as long as I wind up with a kit that actually looks like the aeroplane it's meant to represent. There was a page on Hobbyvista site. If I remember well, it said that it was a bit better than Heller as cowling, wingtips and closed wheel bays. Massimo
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learstang
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« Reply #344 on: August 30, 2010, 06:02:32 PM » |
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Hi Jason, As a matter of fact, I'm waiting on the Amodel I-153 kit. How similar is this to the old Heller kit (is it the same)? The same inaccuracies (or new ones)? I'm familiar with Amodel in general, so I know the kits can be a little rough, although they seem to be accurate enough. I don't mind doing a little bit of work, as long as I wind up with a kit that actually looks like the aeroplane it's meant to represent. There was a page on Hobbyvista site. If I remember well, it said that it was a bit better than Heller as cowling, wingtips and closed wheel bays. Massimo Thank you, Massimo! I remember that page, but it disappeared when the site went down, and isn't available on the restored site (at least I haven't found it). Did anyone happen to preserve that page - I'd love to see it. Regards, Jason
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"I'll sleep when I'm dead."
- Warren William Zevon
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