Sovietwarplanes

Hi,
I've uploaded a page collecting the images of Il-2s serviceable in the countries allied with SSSR.
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/postwarforeign/postwarforeign.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/postwarforeign/postwarforeign.htm)
I think that there is still some work to do, particularly on Yugoslav Ils.
Regards
Massimo

Excellent work as usual Massimo,many of them would be interesting Il-2 models. Greetings.

Martin

Thank you Martin.
I hope that someone will made decals sheets for those subjects some day.
Regards
Massimo

A lot of work actually. Introductory text is full of errors - what was your source?

Profiles also need some corrections.  To begin with, you should correct national markings.
-  Those "white only" flags never existed in Yugoslav Air Force.
-  Blue rings on fuselage and wing roundels are way too narrow.


"Lift Here" has produced decals for Yugoslav Yaks; those can be used on Il-2s.

(http://www.lindenhillimports.com/images/723-LHa.gif)

(http://www.lindenhillimports.com/images/724-LHa.gif)

(http://www.lindenhillimports.com/images/722-LHa.gif)

Looks good Massimo! Konstantin may be correct about the blue rings on the Yugoslavian examples, however.

Regards,

Jason

Which introductory text - about the postwar Il-2's in general, or about the Yugoslavian Il-2's? What are the errors and what is your source?

Regards,

Jason

Text about Yugoslav Il-2s is full of errors.  If you need references for your book send me a PM.

Regards,
KL

I see. That introduction was written merging informations of the book of Gordon with the article on wikipedia. I'll check it with the article of Micevsky.
Regards
Massimo

Article by Micevski is all you need; that is by far the most reliable info about Yugoslav Il-2s.
Regards,
KL

Well, I'm still working on the page also thanks to the help of Aleksandar Ilic, brother of my old friend Aleksej of Gremlinmodels.
I've written a mail to Micevski too.
In the meantime, I've added new photos and drawings to that page.
Here is one:
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/postwarforeign/yugoslav/il2m3-bp-fl-am-3view-yugo27grey.jpg)
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo

I would think many decals can be sourced from the Special Hobby B-33 kit,
(http://www.ipmsdeutschland.de/FirstLook/Special_Hobby/SH_Avia_B-33/SH_Avia_B-33_decal.jpg)

which would give you Polish, Czechoslovak and Bulgarian insignia at least.

That's a good idea Troy; I never thought of that!

Regards,

Jason

Hi Troy,
seems a good idea. One has to check the sizes of the marks.
I've found a big confusion on photos about Yugoslavian marks. There is a strong variability in size depending on the unit, and the outlines of the stars were not standardized; could be white, yellow or none at all, and of variable thickness.

Hi Jason,
I'll send the new and the updated drawings of Yugoslav planes as soon as they will be all ready. Perhaps I'll try a reconstruction of an early Bulgarian plane, but I have only one photo of a line with no visible codes.

Regards
Massimo

Some standards did exist: roundels were either 100cm or 70cm in diameter (maybe 50cm, can't remember...).  There was either no outline around the star or it was yellow outline.  White outline would be nonstandard.  Same on the rudder flag: no outline or yellow outline.

Blue ring on last two drawings is OK, you still have to make it wider on some of your earlier drawings.  In general, the blue and the red band on the flag should be the same width as the white band (check Yugoslav flag on wikipedia).

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/postwarforeign/yugoslav/il2yugoguards27.jpg)
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/postwarforeign/yugoslav/il2m3-bp-fl-al-3view-yugo27-p.jpg)
Regards,
KL

Sounds good, Massimo - I look forward to seeing them!

Regards,

Jason

Hi,
white outline clearly can't be seen on the white background, only as an extension of the white round around the tips of the stars.
Aleksandar wrote that the yellow line became standard later, and what I have seen seems to confirm this.
In at least one case, the line was clearly recognizable both on the white and the blue background, so it was almost certainly yellow.
About the bands on the tail of 27: both photos show the interruption of the white trim tributable to the red band under the white one, and both are thinner than the white one.
An identical width was probably the rule, but not always followed, probably for inaccuracy in painting  or for avoiding the overposition between the red star and the red band.
You are right about the too thin blue circle in earlier profiles.
Regards
Massimo

Check here:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Yugoslavia

- Enlarged red star (two lower star tips ending within the red band and top ending within the blue band) with yellow outline was adopted on February 1st, 1946
- in late 1940es width to length ratio was changed from 1:2 to 2:3.  Earlier flag was more elongated!  in late forties yellow outline became wider...

1946 flag:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/71/Flag_of_SFR_Yugoslavia.svg/300px-Flag_of_SFR_Yugoslavia.svg.png)

Late 1940es flag:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/50/Civil_ensign_of_SFR_Yugoslavia.svg/158px-Civil_ensign_of_SFR_Yugoslavia.svg.png)

Also from wikipedia, this would be the 1945-1946 flag:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Yugoslav_Partisans_flag_%281942-1945%29.svg/120px-Yugoslav_Partisans_flag_%281942-1945%29.svg.png)

There is absolutely nothing about the white outline!  So, if there is an outline, it has to be yellow...
Almost all of the photos show the enlarged red star.  You may consider correcting that too... 


Photos show white band somewhat wider than the red or blue, but not double the width of the red or blue band.  The red star is also of the enlarged type, not the small as you made it.

Regards,
KL

Hi Massimo,
Something is wrong with the flag here...  ::)

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/postwarforeign/yugoslav/il2m3-bp-fm-am-3view-yugo14-p.jpg)

I see, it's reversed. I'll check the markings.
Regards
Massimo

All three bands of the ruder flag had to be equal width.  It was the standard appearance of the national flag and it was regulated the same way in Air Force technical instructions.  So, not "probably the rule", it was "the rule".

You are dealing with some poor quality photos or movie stills; red and blue are sometimes unrecognizable against the blue-gray, white bands are sometimes glaring and look larger than they are in reality. Instead of guessing and improvising, use the information you have.

Regards,
KL

Hi,
thank you for the input; I've asked again Aleksandar, but he had a computer crash in recent days, so he can't send a photo of a Yak-1 with white outlines; at the moment, he can only send a scan of a decals sheet of Lift Here, where such decals appear. The sheet was made with the collaboration of Micevski.

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/postwarforeign/yugoslav/yak1decals.jpg)

Of course, the thing of yellow or white outlines has still to be clarified, but without prejudices.

About the accuracy in conforming to rules, he thinks that we can't give it for assured. Look at this photo taken in 2012 (from http://www.mycity-military.com/Ostalo-3/Aeromiting-Batajnica-2012-100-godina-RV-i-PVO_95.html (http://www.mycity-military.com/Ostalo-3/Aeromiting-Batajnica-2012-100-godina-RV-i-PVO_95.html))

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/postwarforeign/yugoslav/Batajnica2012.jpg)

We see 4  J-22 ORAO (not Il-2, unfortunately) in flight at Batajnica 2012 air show. One of them have on lower wing 20+ year old  ex-socialistic Yugoslavia roundel, and rest on it are less old so caled ??pepsi?? roundels from ex-Serbia-Montenegro time, while the rest of planes have regular (current) Serbian markings. And it is an operative plane, not a wreck or a gate guardian.

Regards
Massimo

As usual, this thread degenerates into an endless and pointless discussion.  ;D
Maybe you were right from the very beginning and those Il-2s had "low visibility" white only flags on their rudders?
Without prejudices, some of those Yugoslav Il-2s could have been green?  How do you know that the stars were red?   Maybe they had "low visibility" stars painted in green or blue?  That would make interesting decal sheets!

My thanks to Aleksandar, but his decal sheet is not a proof.  It's more likely a result of misinterpreted b/w photo.
This is also a Lift Here decal sheet and it has several obvious errors

(http://www.lindenhillimports.com/images/722-LH---Yak1_2.gif)

Photo of J-22 Oraos is totally unrelated.  It only illustrates confusion within the Air Force which couldn't choose its markings and didn't have money to repaint the old markings.

Regards,
KL