Sovietwarplanes

Pre-GPW Aviation => Pre-war painting standards => Topic started by: GoNzA on April 21, 2011, 03:54:10 AM



Title: Prewar colors of Soviet and Spanish planes.
Post by: GoNzA on April 21, 2011, 03:54:10 AM
I've removed the images of the sheet on request of Anatoliy. The post is continuing about prewar Russian and Spanish colors.
Massimo  


Title: Re: Decal for I-16 in Spain (25 variants)
Post by: KL on April 21, 2011, 07:28:16 PM
Colours are still questionable, but you should keep in mind following:

?   I-16s exported to Spain were made between autumn 1936 and spring 1938
?   АIIз (AII Green) was used from 1938
?   АIIг  (AII Blue) was used from mid-1940
?   There is no evidence of any gray or silver paint used for undersides on Spanish I-16s or I-15s

Following are fragments of 1938 I-16 Type 10

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/XIPMosca-1.jpg)

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/PALEBLUEUNKMOSCA.jpg)


To make a long story short and simple:
All I-16s exported to Spain (from Oct 1936 to June 1938) were painted in old mid-1930es paints:  ?Dark Protective Green? for upper surfaces and ?Light Blue? for undersides.

Cheers,
Konstantin


Title: Re: Decal for I-16 in Spain (25 variants)
Post by: xan on April 22, 2011, 01:01:06 AM
With the google traduction I see the second decoration would by the one I'm loocking for , great!

About the colours of the planes of the republican planes, I'm not sure at all AII colours are the more indicated...
I live in the basque country near the border and I know a lot of modelers who are very found of civil war period.

they do all agree with the idea that republican planes had they own colours.

there is a fantastic forum about spanish war planes

http://www.network54.com/Forum/394728/ (http://www.network54.com/Forum/394728/)

a post comments a great discovery:

A Natacha (polikarpov RZ) was find in a farm where it stays all this time along (it means that the colours where protected of the weather)


specialist went to study the paint and their conclusion was that the green was very closed to RLM 83 (much darker than AII green)
wich it means un gunze colours H423 for the green or humbrol and H323

Here is a I-16 made by a fried of mine with this colours:

(http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/5635/img5625f.jpg)

(http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/1305/img5627s.jpg)

(http://img813.imageshack.us/img813/8264/img5630.jpg)

and a letov by a spanish modelers inthis forum:

(http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/3935/letov20redimensionarxf2.jpg)

(http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/3397/letov23redimensionarde3.jpg)

Xan







Title: Re: Decal for I-16 in Spain (25 variants)
Post by: GoNzA on April 22, 2011, 01:59:38 AM
Hi
Thank you for correction!

?No tocan? - It is bad to draw that that don't understand :). It is good what to alter "n" in "r" easy.



All I-16s exported to Spain (from Oct 1936 to June 1938) were painted in old mid-1930es paints:  ?Dark Protective Green? for upper surfaces and ?Light Blue? for undersides.
About the colours of the planes of the republican planes, I'm not sure at all AII colours are the more indicated...
I live in the basque country near the border and I know a lot of modelers who are very found of civil war period.

they do all agree with the idea that republican planes had they own colours.

Konstantin
Xan

You are very possibly right!
I'm not sure at all AII colours too. There is a table from monography "Colour of the Soviet aircraft" by Varlamov and Orlov. The sense "около 1937" leaves many variants.

(http://s2.postimage.org/31zatxgo4/y_y_y.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/31zatxgo4/)

Fortunately it doesn't mention the decals  as it contains only colors of letters and signs, and each master chooses color  of model itself at own discretion.

You think better to clean mentions of AII  colors from the description?



Xan,
thank you for wonderfull link - http://www.network54.com/Forum/394728/  !!!

Whether you have received my answer about photoetched for I-15 bis?


Title: Re: Decal for I-16 in Spain (25 variants)
Post by: KL on April 22, 2011, 08:51:26 AM
Hi Xan,  :)
Have you seen any photos of that preserved RZ???  It would be a spectacular discovery!  I know that ADAR (David Gesali) has RZ rudder?

I agree with your comments on Republican I-16s.  They were darker than light olive green AII Z.  It is also true that all preserved fragments of Republican planes show that planes were repainted with Spanish paints

RLM-83 or Protective green before 1938
(http://www.scalemodelshop.co.uk/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/500x500/2dde40820fdf9d1fe58bdb53091644a4/X/A/XA1226.gif)

Current Musee de l?Air I-153 restoration shows that RLM-62 is very close to AII Green

RLM 62 or Protective green after 1938
(http://www.scalemodelshop.co.uk/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/500x500/2dde40820fdf9d1fe58bdb53091644a4/X/A/XA1220.gif)

Hope this helps,
KL


Title: Re: Decal for I-16 in Spain (25 variants)
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 22, 2011, 03:24:31 PM
Hi Konstantin,
some questions...
Are you meaning Spanish colors, or Russian ones?
Is this dark green the same darker shade of the wreck of SB from Montoya? And the lighter shade is from the same piece? For What Montoya has written, the color of I-16 fragment is not identical to any of the greens of the SB.
Again, how is decided the deadline of 1938 for those colors?
Regards
Massimo :)


Title: Re: Decal for I-16 in Spain (25 variants)
Post by: xan on April 22, 2011, 09:25:47 PM
Hello Konstantin,
I'm afraid we are talking about the same piece  of plane, because the one i was talking about is kept by David Gesali.
 Antonio Morant studies the colours...
I asked for a pic in the forum but i have no reply yet...

Xan


Title: Re: Decal for I-16 in Spain (25 variants)
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 22, 2011, 10:51:58 PM
Hi Xan,
the rudder? Are the colors of the flag visible, then?
Please, let me know.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Decal for I-16 in Spain (25 variants)
Post by: xan on April 22, 2011, 11:48:51 PM
Sorry Maximo, it's even not a rudder but a piece of cloth piece.
he have an another cloth piece od I-16 and David told me the colours were the same.
I'm waiting for more informations...

Xan


Title: Re: Decal for I-16 in Spain (25 variants)
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 23, 2011, 09:12:07 AM
Hi Xan,
so, the color of the piece of I-16 and of R-Z are the same. Montoya wrote that they are more olive than the dark green of the SB. So, it seems that there are at least three greens of Spanish origin.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Decal for I-16 in Spain (25 variants)
Post by: xan on April 23, 2011, 02:49:39 PM
Hello Maximo,
I don't know why three greens...
the only one I actually know is the green who is like the RLM 83.
I red in the forum that it seems that the first I-16 type 5 were painted in sovietic AII green... meanwhile the type 10 were painted in spanish green... 

Xan


Title: Re: Decal for I-16 in Spain (25 variants)
Post by: dragonlanceHR on April 23, 2011, 04:39:13 PM
IIRC only three colors are possible for Spanish-era soviet built a/c, "Protective color", 3B dark green protective color and gray-blue aviolak.

(http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k36/dragonlance_HR/AKANVVSchipsAII-forlinenandmixed.jpg)

Respectively, AKAN No's 363, 370 and 371 color "chips" posted for convenience. Actual paint in bottle is more vivid, but I haven't painted anything with them yet.


Title: Re: Decal for I-16 in Spain (25 variants)
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 23, 2011, 11:08:49 PM
Hi Xan and Dragonlance,
I would add AII green, Spanish greens and a Spanish light blue similar to AII light blue to this list. However there is not a so wide difference between these colors, I would use the colors of the I-16 on all the planes, if not otherwise proven.
Massimo


Title: Re: Decal for I-16 in Spain (25 variants)
Post by: xan on April 24, 2011, 12:38:26 AM
Don't you think that spanish blue seems lighter than the AII that I imagine more blue...
Xan


Title: Re: Decal for I-16 in Spain (25 variants)
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 24, 2011, 07:43:27 AM
Hi Xan,
having a look to the acrilic AII blue chip of Akan that John has kindly sent to me, it's just slightly more blue than Humbrol 65, and fits with the shade shown in the photo of the I-16 wreck or in the chip on the Spanish forum that gives h 65 as an approximate match. So I think that those colors are close one another.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Decal for I-16 in Spain (25 variants)
Post by: dragonlanceHR on April 24, 2011, 08:54:17 AM
Hi all, I was thinking of factory finishes.

On the previous page, that underside piece of metal, are we seeing the "gray-blue aviolak" repainted with Spanish light blue or AII blue??


Title: Re: Decal for I-16 in Spain (25 variants)
Post by: xan on April 24, 2011, 11:05:27 AM
Hello Maximo,
in your web site you give two different colours.

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/humbrol/humbrolltblue.jpg)

I know that you work with Humbrol references, but do ypu think that H323 of Gunze (no carresponding in humbrol) , wich is find for spanish blue (for spanish modelers) would be find too for AII blue ? (it seems to me very light)

(http://img813.imageshack.us/img813/8264/img5630.jpg)

(http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/3397/letov23redimensionarde3.jpg)

sorry Anatoliy if we get quite far from your beautifull decals  ;)

Xan


Title: Re: Decal for I-16 in Spain (25 variants)
Post by: xan on April 24, 2011, 05:39:59 PM
Me and Konstantine received an answer from David;
I put it in spanih and translate with google:

El trozo de tela del natacha proviene de un retal hecho por uno de sus tripulantes a un avion derribado/ accidentado. lo conserv?.. supongo dentro de un libro y finalmente lo dio a ADAR, el trozo de piel del mosca es un detalle de mi colega Isaac Montoya, que lleva trabajando el tema de los restos de los aviones accidentados durante a?os y tiene casi ultimado un trabajo " exahustivo" sobre cada uno de los incidentes/ accidentes por el estudiados. pareceran conclusiones fundamentadas francamente sorprendentes por lo que el me ha contado. apareceran tambien conclusiones sobre los colores de los aviones, tanto moscas, como chatos,katiuskas etc.. con mas de una sorpresilla, pues no todas las escuadrillas tenian los mismos colores..( bueno esto hay que definirlo bien, pero ya lo har? ?l)
por mi parte puedo volvera postear las fotografias que en su dia hicimos.. o bien si alguien tiene el enlace a el post sobre los skins.. etc.

Del gumman si que tengo fotografiada alguna cosa.. como refuerzos de aluminio interior con color de cromato de zinc verde y un material que me pas? Eloy, en el que hay unas poleas de reenvio de los cables de mando que son en color cromato del amarillo, y despues un trozo recuperado muy peque?o de chapa de aluminio con el color marron del fuselaje.

basicamente son colores " indigenas" hechos en el lugar. el de los delfin pintados en VIC ( por favor ya sin H final) y los chatos, los fabricados en espa?a o revisados, con color verde de las fuerzas aereas y azul o "purpurina" por debajo. los rusos recien llegados, siempre purupirna por debajo como regla y un verde distinto al de "aqu?".

pero esto siempre es un tema complicado.. porque es lo mismo el color de un natacha en primavera de 1937 que en marzo de 1939.. creo que no?
es lo miso el color de un katiuska montado en albacete en noviembre de 1936 que el de un taller movil pintado en octubre de 1938. pues tampoco... por no hablar de los dragon rapide de LApe.. de los fokker. del fulgur.. etc..

hay que seguir practicamente avion a avion para establecer la vida de cada uno.. pero tambien podemos hacer reglas generales..

epocas en la que los aviones estan camulflados... epocas que no.. o en que momento vuelven a estar camuflados con manchas.... etc..

en fin, rollo para la que semana santa no aburra mucho.

The piece of fabric from a remnant natacha made by one of his crew on a plane shot down / crashed. kept it .. I guess in a book and finally gave ADAR, the piece of skin from the Mosca is a gift of my colleague Isaac Montoya, who has been working on the issue of the remains of aircraft accidents over the years and has nearly finishted a complited work  on each of the accidents for the study. reasoned conclusions even seem downright amazing for what he has told me. findings also appear on the colors of the aircraft, both flies, as flat, rain boots etc. .. with more than a little surprise, since not all squadrons had the same colors .. (well this should be well defined, but he will do it)
For my part I can post the pictures will return in his day did .. or if anyone has a link to the post on the skins .. etc.

 I do have pics of the Grumman.. as internal aluminum reinforcements with zinc chromate color green and I went Eloy material in which there are sheaves of control cables that are color yellow chromate, and then a very small piece of metal recovered aluminum with brown color of the fuselage.

colors are basically "indigenous" facts on the ground. that of the dolphin painted VIC (please and without H final) and chatos I-15, manufactured in Spain or revised, with green color and blue air forces or "glitter" below. newcomers Russians provided below purupirna rule and green as opposed to "here."

but this is always a complicated issue .. it is the same color of a natacha in spring 1937 than in March 1939 .. I think not?
miso is the color of a mounted Katyusha albacete in November 1936 that painted a mobile workshop in October 1938. it either ... not to mention the dragon rapide of Lape .. the fokker. the fulgur .. etc. ..

We have to follow almost plane to plane to establish the life of each one .. but also can make general rules ..

seasons in which the planes are camulflados ... times than not .. or that time again to be camouflaged with patches .... etc. ..



Title: Re: Decal for I-16 in Spain (25 variants)
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 24, 2011, 09:30:14 PM
Hi Xan,
this collection of chips is made utilizing the scans of the AKAN catalogue found on the forum, but when I received the chips painted on paper by John I saw that they are slightly different, and AKAN AII green is more similar to h65 than it appeared on this image. More recently, I've published on the forum the result of a direct comparison between Akan acrilics and Humbrol  at http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=783.105 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=783.105) and the result is slightly different from the previous one.
The Spanish light blue digital chip was taken from the Spanish forum, but now that I see the photo of the wreck it gives the idea to be a bit darker. Unfortunately, a good comparison requires two painted chips taken with the same scan or photo, with the same inclination and under the same light. 
I'll have to correct the first work for AII blue, but I haven't the original chip for the Spanish piece of I-16. It would be good to have it photographed side by side to a page of a FS-595 catalogue or to chips of Humbrol and other similar paints.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Decal for I-16 in Spain (25 variants)
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 25, 2011, 07:15:40 AM
Quote
el de los delfin pintados en VIC ( por favor ya sin H final) y los chatos, los fabricados en espa?a o revisados, con color verde de las fuerzas aereas y azul o "purpurina" por debajo. los rusos recien llegados, siempre purupirna por debajo como regla y un verde distinto al de "aqu?".
Hi Xan,
here is written that I-15s could have the undersurfaces painted with aluminium (I suppose that purpurina/glitter means this), probably the original Russian color of 1938, or light blue.
Here it's clear what is a chato, but what is a delfin, and what is VIC?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Decal for I-16 in Spain (25 variants)
Post by: dragonlanceHR on April 25, 2011, 09:46:10 AM
Dolphin would be Grumman GE-23 biplane.

The VIC translation should be "in VIC" or "at VIC", denoting facility or camo scheme?!?

As to aluminium-sliver undersides, Maslov in the latest I-16 book (Eksmo) states:

In the summer of 1937 by joint decisions of the representatives of the Air Force, and SUAI VIAM (All-Union Institute of Aviation Materials) planes with monocoque fuselages decided to paint a completely matte silver color. Indeed, such an I-16 later met, but have not received significant proliferation. Early in 1938 the factories were sent new instruction, whereby the upper surfaces of wings, fuselage and tail should be painted a khaki color (dark green), and the lower surface - the "silver-aluminum (dull) color."


Title: Re: Decal for I-16 in Spain (25 variants)
Post by: xan on April 25, 2011, 10:42:42 AM
Helo Massimo and dragon

the delfin is a grumman CCF G-23:

(http://www.adar.es/guerra/image043.jpg)
http://www.adar.es/colaboracionesguerra.htm (http://www.adar.es/colaboracionesguerra.htm)

Vic is a town in catalunya

purpurina is surely aluminium colour (I will ask him)

Xan


Title: Re: Decal for I-16 in Spain (25 variants)
Post by: xan on April 25, 2011, 03:33:25 PM
David confirms me the first I-15 in spain were aluminium in lower surfaces.
Better, he told me he asked to be a new menber of this forum to participate to our discution, great isn't it?

Xan


Title: Re: Decal for I-16 in Spain (25 variants)
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 25, 2011, 04:00:44 PM
Quote
Insert Quote
David confirms me the first I-15 in spain were aluminium.
Better, he told me he asked to be a new menber of this forum to participate to our discution, great isn't it?

Xan
Hi Xan and Dragonlance,
thank you for your answers. David will be welcome here.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Decal for I-16 in Spain (25 variants)
Post by: KL on April 26, 2011, 07:50:59 PM
Hola,  :)

Conclusions from this tread and David?s comments could be summarized as follows:

?   Most Soviet fighters arrived in Spain painted in mid-1930es colours:
            o    Darker Protective (green) on upper surfaces
            o    Light blue or silver on undersides.
?   AII varnishes were rare; possibly some 1938 I-16s and I-15bis (late 1938)
?   All republican planes were repainted, some several times
?   Most, probably all, paints used by the Republicans were ?local?, i.e. Spanish.
 
Saludos,
KL


Title: Re: Decal for I-16 in Spain (25 variants)
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 26, 2011, 11:01:00 PM
Hi Konstantin,
interesting. So, aluminium could be combined with the early protective, not only with AII green.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Decal for I-16 in Spain (25 variants)
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 27, 2011, 08:47:09 AM
Hi Konstantin,
I have still some doubts:
was the color of RZ Russian or Spanish?
The chip of early protective green looks more green that the olivish shade proposed by Akan, similar to RFC green or to fresh Olive drab.
Again, it would be good to have the exhibits photographed side by side to some page of a FS catalogue or other reproductable chips. Are you in contact with the owner?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Decal for I-16 in Spain (25 variants)
Post by: KL on April 27, 2011, 07:55:02 PM
So, aluminium could be combined with the early protective, not only with AII green.

David Gesali mentioned silver undersides...  Montoya has never seen silver during his research.  So, this is something that should be confirmed.
There was a Soviet silver nitro paint in mid 1930es, before AII Al. Its name was NAK.  It was used on fabric and wooden parts of MBR-2 flying boats.  I have no information about its use on I-15s.

was the color of RZ Russian or Spanish?
The chip of early protective green looks more green that the olivish shade proposed by Akan, similar to RFC green or to fresh Olive drab.
Again, it would be good to have the exhibits photographed side by side to some page of a FS catalogue or other reproductable chips. Are you in contact with the owner?

I haven't seen RZ fabric piece.  I hoped David would post its photo.
In Akanihin's opinion, Protective paint on Montoya's I-16 fabric piece is extremely deteriorated.  His own "Early Protective" model paint is based on a TB-3 fragment he got from Finland.  Note that we are comparing piece of fabric and piece of metal, ie two paints (nitro paint and oil paint), none of them well preserved.

Regards,
KL 


Title: -=
Post by: learstang on April 27, 2011, 08:30:43 PM
What about the green preserved on the rudder of the Le Bourget I-153 undergoing restoration?  There is a picture on that thread (Polikarpov I-153 restoration), and considering that it was probably painted over by the Germans in WWII, and has remained under that paint since then, it could be considered as "fresh" as possible.  It is definitely an olive green, and a fairly bright one at that.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Decal for I-16 in Spain (25 variants)
Post by: KL on April 27, 2011, 09:16:31 PM
Green found on Le Bourget I-153 rudder (under 1960es French paint) is AII Z (AII Green in English).  It's well preserved and corresponds to the specimen in Orlov's collection and to the chip in "Albom nakrasok".

We are talking here about the "Early Protective" that was in use before AII Green, or before 1938.  "Early Protective" was darker then AII Green.
"Early Protective" is poorly documented - few small (questionable?) fragments, obviously its chip wasn't included in "Albom nakrasok".

Regards,
KL  


Title: Re: Decal for I-16 in Spain (25 variants)
Post by: xan on April 27, 2011, 09:48:05 PM
We are talking here about the "Early Protective" that was in use before AII Green, or before 1938.  "Early Protective" was darker then AII Green.
"Early Protective" is poorly documented - few small (questionable?) fragments, obviously its chip wasn't included in "Albom nakrasok".

Regards,
KL  

Is that Hornat calls 3B dark green ?

about the restauration of the I-153, her's the website of the memotial flight who do the restauration:

http://memorial.flight.free.fr/ (http://memorial.flight.free.fr/)

Xan


Title: Re: Decal for I-16 in Spain (25 variants)
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 27, 2011, 10:20:17 PM
Quote
Green found on Le Bourget I-153 rudder (under 1960es French paint) is AII Z (AII Green in English).  It's well preserved and corresponds to the specimen in Orlov's collection and to the chip in "Albom nakrasok".
Hi Konstantin,
if I remember well, AIIZ wasn't inserted in the Nakrasok, Orlov has a specimen of factory-painted fabric.
About the chip of David: does he think that it's Russian color, or Spanish? If it's Spanish, there should be some underlying Russian layer of paint.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Decal for I-16 in Spain (25 variants)
Post by: KL on April 27, 2011, 11:01:20 PM
We are talking here about the "Early Protective" that was in use before AII Green, or before 1938.  "Early Protective" was darker then AII Green.

Is that Hornat calls 3B dark green ?

Yes, both Hornat and Pilawskii call this colour 3B.
3B was an Army oil paint used in mid 1930es.  Its colour was probably very close (maybe the same) as the colour of aviation paints used during this period.

(http://warrelics.eu/forum/military_photos/headgear-steel-helmets-rkka-red-army-soviet-army/710d1233013476t-soviet-ssch-36-steel-helmet-dated-1936-sssrkasque.jpg)

(http://warrelics.eu/forum/military_photos/headgear-steel-helmets-rkka-red-army-soviet-army/711d1233013476t-soviet-ssch-36-steel-helmet-dated-1936-sssrkasque-1-.jpg)


Title: Re: Decal for I-16 in Spain (25 variants)
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 27, 2011, 11:20:27 PM
Quote
3B was an Army oil paint used in mid 1930es.  Its colour was probably very close (maybe the same) as the colour of aviation paints used during this period.
Hi Konstantin, some time ago you wrote that, in your opinion, the use of 3B on planes was only occasional. Was the piece of RZ to make you change your mind, or there is some other information?
Regards
Massimo  :)


Title: Re: Decal for I-16 in Spain (25 variants)
Post by: KL on April 28, 2011, 08:36:34 PM
Hi Konstantin, some time ago you wrote that, in your opinion, the use of 3B on planes was only occasional. Was the piece of RZ to make you change your mind, or there is some other information?

I haven't seen RZ fabric piece.  :'(  I hoped David would post its photo. :-\

Re "Early Protective" and 3B:
in 1941 there were three paints, same olive green colour:
  • 4BO for helmets
  • A-24m for metal planes
  • AMT-4 for fabric/mixed construction planes.

In 1936 it was probably very similar - three paints, similar or same dark green colour:
  • 3B for helmets,
  • "Early protective oil paint" for metal planes like TB-3
  • "Early protective nitro paint" for fabric covered planes like I-16.


There are many examples of well preserved 3B.  Akanihins "Protective" is representative for metal planes.  Spanish relics may help to determine "Early protective nitro paint".

Cheers,
KL


Title: Re: Decal for I-16 in Spain (25 variants)
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 29, 2011, 07:30:06 AM
Quote
In 1936 it was probably very similar - three paints, similar or same dark green colour:

?3B for helmets,
?"Early protective oil paint" for metal planes like TB-3
?"Early protective nitro paint" for fabric covered planes like I-16.


There are many examples of well preserved 3B.  Akanihins "Protective" is representative for metal planes.  Spanish relics may help to determine "Early protective nitro paint".

So, the shade similar to olive drab underlying on the piece of TB-3 and reproduced by AKAN khaki 363 is an even earlier protective?
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/earlycamogreen.jpg)
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Decal for I-16 in Spain (25 variants)
Post by: dragonlanceHR on April 29, 2011, 06:55:09 PM
Yes, Massimo, if you look at the label above the AKAN chips on the previous page,
363 is the protective color used for a/c topsides (on TB-1, TB-3 etc.) from 1927 to 1937.

3B dark green protective colour was used from to 1933-1937. (On TB-3 etc)

I thought that was clear since that image was posted 2-3 years ago. Data is also in the AKAN .xls file.


Title: Re: Decal for I-16 in Spain (25 variants)
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 29, 2011, 08:30:43 PM
Hi Dragonlance,
I remember the chips and the comments by Akanihin; it's that a pair of months ago Konstantin wrote

Quote
4.
I would not include 3B among VVS paints.  3B was an Army version of ?Protective Colour?.  It may have been used on metal airplanes sporadically, but no solid proofs for that.
and now I was interested to know if something new has emerged on other sources to have modified his opinion. All here.
I would say that a close exam of the piece of Gesali to know if the dark green is overposed or not to another green could give great informations.  On the I-16 piece, under the external layer there is another more brownish, probably the original Russian color.
Regards
Massimo :)


Title: Re: Decal for I-16 in Spain (25 variants)
Post by: GoNzA on April 30, 2011, 01:04:25 AM
This article will be interesting to probably you:  4 БО - наше всё. (4 BO - it's our everything) (http://www.akan.ru/index.php/satii/29-4bo) by Alexandr Akanichin (AKAN)

!Notice that some AKAN's colors  are specially given faded, burned out (ВЫЦВЕТШИЙ).
(http://www.akan.ru/images/Statii_Bce/4BO_Ha6e_bce/complite.jpg)




Title: Re: Decal for I-16 in Spain (25 variants)
Post by: mholly on April 30, 2011, 04:05:55 AM
I think there is a little confusion going on in regards to VVS paint nomenclature. As I recall M.Orlov wrote on scalemodels.ru very clearly that
4BO was NOT A PAINT but color, in other words a color etalon according to which the actual paint was to be made-namely AIIz and later AMT-4. As I also understand (according to Akanikhin and Orlov) there were TWO color plates (etalons) of the desired shade and the actual paint was expected to fall between them i.e. some variations were anticipated by default!
Cheers,
Mario


Title: Re: Decal for I-16 in Spain (25 variants)
Post by: GoNzA on April 30, 2011, 06:35:39 AM
I won't argue as I am not the expert in this question.

Akanichin writes :

...
It would be desirable to talk about the name [4BO]. Long time I let out a paint and named it 4BО - Base, the Basic - Protective; dark green. Not so long ago, after small supervision, I have come to a conclusion that the letter "O" in this abbreviation carries absolutely other sense. Let's look together at album fragments:

(http://www.akan.ru/images/Statii_Bce/4BO_Ha6e_bce/4bo_red.jpg)
(http://www.akan.ru/images/Statii_Bce/4BO_Ha6e_bce/4bn_red.jpg)
(http://www.akan.ru/images/Statii_Bce/4BO_Ha6e_bce/4bg_red3.jpg)
Here!!! "O(O)" - drying oil; "Г(G)" - glyptal lacquer; "H(N)" - nitrocellulose. As all has appeared simply! And still it is necessary to specify that names "4БО (4BO)", "4БН(4BN)" and "4БГ(4BG)" don't mean that these paints became under one standards of color though there would be it logical. Accordingly, each of these paints had a scope and hardly they were crossed. The first - for the armor technics and artillery. The second and the third - for metal and wooden parts of cars. The tank painted with nitroenamel it it is very courageous!!! But I such met at foreign colleagues... Sadly. It is impossible to substitute a special-purpose designation of paints and color even if very much it would be desirable it.

Forgive me for clumsy text translation, the original - http://www.akan.ru/index.php/satii/29-4bo


Title: Re: Decal for I-16 in Spain (25 variants)
Post by: dragonlanceHR on April 30, 2011, 10:32:06 AM
4BO was NOT A PAINT but color, in other words a color etalon  

The same goes for 3B.

And the color was simply called "protective". It can be the original shade, it can be of 3B shade and at last 4BO shade, later renamed AII Green.

Language really is a barrier.


Title: Re: Decal for I-16 in Spain (25 variants)
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 30, 2011, 02:12:10 PM
Hi Anatoliy,  thank you for this good link and translation.
This article is really interesting, even if I haven't fully understood all because of the automatic translator.
Here is already an answer from Akanihin: the khaki protective was similar to 4BO and utilized before 1935, while the 3B was in use between 1935 and 1938.
However, digital chips are confusing. The 4BO shot taken from the Nakrasok doesn't look  similar to the chips of Akan shown aside. Probably depends on the settings of the scan.

Hi Dragonlance and Mario
maybe 3B and 4B are the names for color, while the last letter is indicative of their chemistry. If so, maybe the old khaki protective was called 2B, and some other type 1B?

Quote
namely AIIz and later AMT-4.
Quote
4BO shade, later renamed AII Green
This identification between AII green and 4BO and AMT-4 is new for me. On the base of the chips of Akanihin, they should be similar but not the same, in fact they aren't enlisted aside 4BO in his article.

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Decal for I-16 in Spain (25 variants)
Post by: mholly on May 01, 2011, 02:06:56 AM
Massimo,
Quote
maybe 3B and 4B are the names for color, while the last letter is indicative of their chemistry
If we are to speak stricktly about aviation laquers I don't think so. Again, 4BO was just color etalon i.e. a sample/swatch how the actual paint should look like.
Then the nomeclature of the real paint indicated its chemistry i.e. AIIz/AMT-4 were known to be nitro-cellulose lacquers.
Quote
This identification between AII green and 4BO and AMT-4 is new for me.
Don't worry, some Russian modelers on scalemodels.ru remained confused that's why M.Orlov "stepped in" and clarified the matter.
Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Mario


Title: Re: Decal for I-16 in Spain (25 variants)
Post by: KL on May 01, 2011, 02:09:38 AM
4BO was NOT A PAINT but color, in other words a color etalon according to which the actual paint was to be made-namely AIIz and later AMT-4.
And the color was simply called "protective". It can be the original shade, it can be of 3B shade and at last 4BO shade, later renamed AII Green.

????  ???  4BO was a paint!  A real material thing in pales and it was painted or sprayed on tanks, artillery and helmets.  It was produced from late 1938 to 1952.  It was a "brand name" for ubiquitous soviet olive green paint.

As Akanihin explains in his last blog (well known facts) its composition was standardized and its colour did not vary as many modelers want to belive.
   

Cheers,
KL


Title: Re: Decal for I-16 in Spain (25 variants)
Post by: mholly on May 01, 2011, 02:34:45 AM
4BO was NOT A PAINT but color, in other words a color etalon according to which the actual paint was to be made-namely AIIz and later AMT-4.
And the color was simply called "protective". It can be the original shade, it can be of 3B shade and at last 4BO shade, later renamed AII Green.

????  ???  4BO was a paint!  A real material thing in pales and it was painted or sprayed on tanks, artillery and helmets.  It was produced from late 1938 to 1952.  It was a "brand name" for ubiquitous soviet olive green paint.

As Akanihin explains in his last blog (well known facts) its composition was standardized and its colour did not vary as many modelers want to belive.
   

Cheers,
KL
I should have made myself clear from the beginning i.e. that I was talking about aviation lacquers only! From that standpoint I maintain that there was no 4BO PAINT to be used in the aviation. 4BO etalon of paint used elsewhere (tanks etc.) with which I agree was taken to create aviation lacquers AIIz and AMT-4.
Or am I confused too?
Cheers,
Mario


Title: Re: Decal for I-16 in Spain (25 variants)
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 01, 2011, 07:30:10 AM
Hi
Quote
Don't worry, some Russian modelers on scalemodels.ru remained confused that's why M.Orlov "stepped in" and clarified the matter.
Hope this helps.
Could you give the link where Orlov states that 4BO AII, green and AMT-4 were identical, please?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Decal for I-16 in Spain (25 variants)
Post by: mholly on May 01, 2011, 07:50:17 AM
Hi
Quote
Don't worry, some Russian modelers on scalemodels.ru remained confused that's why M.Orlov "stepped in" and clarified the matter.
Hope this helps.
Could you give the link where Orlov states that 4BO AII, green and AMT-4 were identical, please?
Regards
Massimo
I'm afraid I don't have time to search pages and pages on that topic. Besides he did NOT say 4BO, AII and AMT-4 were identical. He said that 4BO was a COLOR (color sample/swatch) according to which AIIz and AMT-4 were made.
Cheers,
Mario


Title: Re: Decal for I-16 in Spain (25 variants)
Post by: KL on May 01, 2011, 09:29:52 AM
Hi Mario,  :)
Chronology will help to explain relationship between all those PAINTS:

3B was made between 1933 and 1939.  Discontinued because it was "decodable" (when viewed against vegetation through certain filters or on some types of photo material).

AII Z was made from mid-1937 to mid 1941.  Discontinued because it was "decodable" and glossy.

4BO was made from late 1938 to 1952.  First "non decodable" paint and first bright olive green paint!

AMT-4 was made from mid 1941.  It was a nitro aviation lacquer but designed to have properties similar to 4BO - same olive green colour and same spectral properties (it was "non-decodable"). Plus, it was matt.  It replaced AII Z.

hope this helps.

Cheers, KL


Title: Re: Decal for I-16 in Spain (25 variants)
Post by: dragonlanceHR on May 01, 2011, 11:34:18 AM
Could you give the link where Orlov states that 4BO AII, green and AMT-4 were identical, please?

Hi Massimo,

I'll try to locate the info, IIRC it was in the M-Hobby articles, not the Aviakolektsia book. However, I'm now browsing the Aviakolektsia 12/2007 VSS Camouflage and markings up to 1940 and there is a paragraph that SB bombers were repainted in "protective color of the 4BO standard".

Ill post later today.

Vedran


Title: Re: Decal for I-16 in Spain (25 variants)
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 01, 2011, 11:43:35 AM
Thank you Vedran.
Massimo


Title: Re: Decal for I-16 in Spain (25 variants)
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 01, 2011, 12:02:14 PM
Hi,
I've made a division in categories for pre-gpw planes. Please, have a look and comment before I start to move the existing topics.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Decal for I-16 in Spain (25 variants)
Post by: mholly on May 02, 2011, 04:29:14 AM
Quote
Could you give the link where Orlov states that 4BO AII, green and AMT-4 were identical, please?
Regards
Massimo

OK Massimo, I WAS able to find it. ABC=M.Orlov

ABC
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Первоначально, 4БО - обозначение ЦВЕТА, а НЕ КРАСКИ. Для наземной техники под этим обозначением называли и краску. ЦВЕТ 4БО использовался и в авиации. Эмали АМТ-4 и А-24 имели цвет практически 4БО. При их разработке, собственно и старались получить 4БО.
Вот и все.
 
Posted Nov 20,2009 3:34pm
Firstly, 4BO is the code for COLOR and NOT THE PAINT. Paint used for vehicles carried the same code. COLOR 4BO was used in the aviation. AMT-4 and A-24 enamels had in fact color 4BO. During their production they strived to achieve color 4BO. That's all.


And also

ABC
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АIIЗ - не имеет ничего общего с 4БО. АIIЗ - темнее.
Разработка 4БО началась в 1940 году, может быть в 1939-м, не раньше. В авиации цвет стал применяться с 1941- го (АМТ-4). На танках и артиллрии - не знаю, мне не интересно.
Судить о цвете по цветным фотографиям и экранным изображениям - дело неблагодарное, легко можно ошибиться.
 
Posted Nov 21, 2009 12:50pm
AIIz-has nothing in common with 4BO. AIIz is darker.
They started to work on 4BO in 1940, possibly 1939 but not sooner. In the aviation they started to use this color from 1941 (AMT-4). How it was aplied on tanks and artillery-I don't know, I'm not interested in that. 

So I need to correct myself, 4BO did NOT correspond to BOTH, only AMT-4/A-24.
Link to the whole debate is here
http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17744&highlight=abc (http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17744&highlight=abc)
and was was actually initiated by our own KL (Konstantin).
Cheers,
Mario


Title: Re: Decal for I-16 in Spain (25 variants)
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 02, 2011, 02:30:08 PM
Thank you Mario.
Massimo


Title: Re: Decal for I-16 in Spain (25 variants)
Post by: xan on May 03, 2011, 11:08:53 AM
Hi,
perhaps this post could be put in the colours, sheme and research section?

so if I understood,
3B is a colour as 4Bo;
ATM-4 et A24 paints are in the 4B0 colour...

what paint is in 3B colour?
what colours is the AIIz paint?

I'm interesting for I-16 paints...according to Hornat, the very first camouflage were two tons of green; AIIz (wich he called A19f) and a darker green one (he doesn't give any name):; I think I remenber Pilawskii spoke about a AII dark green (?)

1) Do you agree the I-16 could be peinted with two greens (as perhaps early yak-1 and Mig-3) ?
2) could it be AII with 3B colour ? if not what was the dark green ?
3) or do you think only AMT-4 and AMT-6 have been two colours paint since 1941, wich it means that in all W&B pics, the two colours sheme would be black and green an d never two greens ?

Xan

 
 


Title: Re: Decal for I-16 in Spain (25 variants)
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 03, 2011, 12:56:34 PM
Hi Xan,
I prefer not to make differeces between paint and color,it is very confusing.
Yesterday Akanihin wrote to me that 4BO and AMT-4 are not exactly the same. He promised to write more on this.

About green/green camouflage of I-16 and other types: nothing is impossible, but I would go with black except if  otherwise proven. Eventually, it could be a faded and thin layer of black over green giving the idea of black green.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Decal for I-16 in Spain (25 variants)
Post by: xan on May 03, 2011, 01:23:45 PM
All right massimo,
so if the sheme are in green and black paint,would it mean that it had to be:
1) AIIZ green with AMT6 black
2) or the two paint sheme I-16 would have been repeinted in AMT-4/AMT-6 ?

Xan


Title: Re: Decal for I-16 in Spain (25 variants)
Post by: mholly on May 03, 2011, 05:36:42 PM
Hi Massimo,
Quote
I prefer not to make differeces between paint and color,it is very confusing.
I beg to differ, we should make that difference otherwise the confusion will continue.
Reason being that, as you know, VVS camo system is rather vague in the COLOR description of any particular camo PAINT
for instance AIIz is protective (zashchitnyi, some translate that z as "zelyonyi"=green) but we know it was green. Of course modelers MUST know what shade of green. Orlov is telling us "around FS 34095" (in his initial work) or "darker than AMT-4" which was in 4BO COLOR (Orlov said earlier around FS 34102).
Quote
Yesterday Akanihin wrote to me that 4BO and AMT-4 are not exactly the same. He promised to write more on this.
Would you be so kind and forward that information to me? Ideally in Russian.
Cheers,
Mario



Title: Re: Decal for I-16 in Spain (25 variants)
Post by: mholly on May 03, 2011, 05:57:51 PM
Hi Xan,
Quote
3B is a colour as 4Bo
no
Quote
ATM-4 et A24 paints are in the 4B0 colour...
yes
Quote
what paint is in 3B colour?
3B paint
Quote
what colours is the AIIz paint?
darker than AMT-4 which was made according to 4BO etalon i.e. roughly around FS34102
Quote
I'm interesting for I-16 paints...according to Hornat, the very first camouflage were two tons of green; AIIz (wich he called A19f) and a darker green one (he doesn't give any name):;
there was NO 2-green camo in VVS system, of course exceptions, not official though, could have happened. AIIz and and A19f are two different both paints and colors, Hornat confused the things. A-19f was alkyd enamel formulated for all metal airplanes i.e. definitely not for I-16! Besides it was lighter and grayer in COLOR than AIIz.
Quote
I think I remenber Pilawskii spoke about a AII dark green (?)
you better forget about this guy, for your own good.
Quote
1) Do you agree the I-16 could be peinted with two greens (as perhaps early yak-1 and Mig-3) ?
no, see above
Quote
2) could it be AII with 3B colour ? if not what was the dark green ?
no, again read above
Quote
3) or do you think only AMT-4 and AMT-6 have been two colours paint since 1941, wich it means that in all W&B pics, the two colours sheme would be black and green an d never two greens ?
yes, correct, but again, exception could have occurred but:
- they were NOT officially endorsed
- we have currently no serious proof whatsoever, I'm not even considering b&w pix.
Hope this helps.
Saludos,
Mario


Title: Re: Decal for I-16 in Spain (25 variants)
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 03, 2011, 06:48:02 PM
Hi Xan,
Quote
so if the sheme are in green and black paint,would it mean that it had to be:
1) AIIZ green with AMT6 black
2) or the two paint sheme I-16 would have been repeinted in AMT-4/AMT-6 ?
it's hard to say. I think AII green plus black on it.

Hi Mario
Quote
Would you be so kind and forward that information to me? Ideally in Russian.
Quote
Перечисленные цвета 4БО, АIIЗ и АМТ-4 - конечно разные. Постараюсь написать статью и сообщу вам. Не обещаю сделать это быстро...
The color 4БО, АІІЗ and AMT-4 - of course different. I'll try to write the article and I will inform you. I promise not to do it quickly...

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Decal for I-16 in Spain (25 variants)
Post by: KL on May 03, 2011, 06:54:33 PM
3B is a colour as 4Bo;

3B and 4BO were Army oil paints used to paint tanks, artillery, helmets etc.
Again, 3B and 4BO were ?brand names? for two different paints.  In those times, colour of each  paint was standardized (determined with etalons).  In case of 4BO we know exact proportion of pigments that were used to make it. 

ATM-4 et A24 paints are in the 4B0 colour...

Yes. 4BO was an oil paint designed for metal use and AMT-4 and A-24m were aviation paints.  AMT-4 for fabric and A-24m for primed duralluminium.

what paint is in 3B colour?

Only 3B paint?  ;)

what colours is the AIIz paint?

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/AKANNo318-originalAIIZ.jpg)

I'm interesting for I-16 paints...according to Hornat, the very first camouflage were two tons of green; AIIz (wich he called A19f) and a darker green one (he doesn't give any name):;

Not true.   I-16s were made before disruptive camouflage scheme was introduced.  A-19f was alkyd paint for metal.  It was not used on fabric covered I-16s!!!

I think I remenber Pilawskii spoke about a AII dark green (?)

AII Dark Green is Pilawskii?s fantasy!   Dark green nitro paint was tested in 1940 but never produced or used in service.

1) Do you agree the I-16 could be peinted with two greens (as perhaps early yak-1 and Mig-3) ?

No, I do not agree.  Two green I-16s, Mig-3s and Yak-1 did not exist. 

2) could it be AII with 3B colour ? if not what was the dark green ?

If you are talking about 1941-45 period (when disruptive schemes were standard), both AII Z and 3B were discontinued ? in 1941 and 1938 respectively.  If you are talking about fighters, they were all mixed construction:  metal + wood + fabric.  3B  was paint for metal only: it was not used on wood or fabric.

3) or do you think only AMT-4 and AMT-6 have been two colours paint since 1941, wich it means that in all W&B pics, the two colours sheme would be black and green an d never two greens ?

Correct!!!


Title: Re: Decal for I-16 in Spain (25 variants)
Post by: mholly on May 04, 2011, 01:44:06 PM
Quote
Hi Mario
Quote
Would you be so kind and forward that information to me? Ideally in Russian.
Quote
Перечисленные цвета 4БО, АIIЗ и АМТ-4 - конечно разные. Постараюсь написать статью и сообщу вам. Не обещаю сделать это быстро...
The color 4БО, АІІЗ and AMT-4 - of course different. I'll try to write the article and I will inform you. I promise not to do it quickly...

Regards
Massimo
Hi Massimo,
Thanks, let's see what he has to say in that article. Keep us posted.
Mario