Sovietwarplanes

I'm ready to apply topside camouflage to my AM 1/48 Il-2 two-seater. I'm going to use the three color scheme of AMT-1/AMT-4/AMT-12. My dilemma is the actual shapes of the color areas. Massimo Tessitori has profiles for two variants at sovietwarplanes.com. Erik Pilawskii has profiles for what he calls "NKAP templates" that are quite different, especially on the wings -- more swirls. I absolutely don't want to stir up yet another Pilawskii yea or nay flame war, and I'm definitely leaning towards basing my paint job on Mr. Tessitori's schemes, but I would be interested in knowing if there's any evidence that Il-2s appeared in the schemes posited by Mr. Pilawskii.

Pip Moss

Pip, welcome to the forum!  I would definitely go with the schemes that Massimo has on the IL-10 page as those are from the definitive (so far) research on VVS colours done by the Russian scholars, the late Vasily Vakhlamov and the still very much with us Mikhail Orlov.  I believe those drawings may actually be from the WWII NKAP drawings.  At any rate, go by those and do please post some photographs of your IL-2.  The IL-2 is rather a passion of mine, and it's always nice to see one done in accurate colours.  For what it's worth, the colours I use are Testors Model Master enamels - '42 Dunkelgrau for AMT-1, Green for AMT-4, Gunship Gray for AMT-12, and Russian Topside Blue for AMT-7.  I can't vouch for their absolute accuracy, but they seem pretty close to me.  Of course, use what you want and I look forward to pictures of your Shturmovik!

Regards,

Jason

Thanks for the welcome, Jason. I used Akan's AMT-7 for the undersides. I must say it looks quite dark, but it is a pretty good match for the 25190 quoted by Massimo and others. I still think I may lighten it with some white and put on another coat. I've mixed some AMT-1 by adding some white to Model Master Russian Earth Gray; I'll use Model Master 34102 mixed with a bit of Interior Green 34151 for AMT-4; and I'll either go with the 50-50 mix of Model Master Russian Topside Blue and Black (as found at scalewiki.ru/амт) or doctor some RLM 74. I'm afraid my cockpit color is way off -- I used my homebrew version of IMUP Blue-Grey Metal Primer when I started the kit some years ago, and that was the cockpit color of the day based mainly on E.P.'s recommendations. OTOH, I suppose it's not inconceivable that there was a cockpit or two in that color.

Thanks again!
Pip

You're welcome, Pip!  The one colour I forgot to mention was the interior colour I use - Testors Light Ghost Gray for the Soviet A-14.  It may be a bit light, but it seems about right for me.  Now in terms of whether all IL-2 interiors were painted in A-14, or a combination of A-14 and/or one of the greenish or yellowish primer colours, that's another matter.  Just for convenience sake (and since I'm hardly likely to know for certain for any individual Shturmovik), I stick with Light Ghost Gray for both the cockpit and the wheel bays, including the landing gear (except for the wheel hubs, which I paint Medium Green).

Regards,

Jason

Hi Pip and Jason,
thank you for your consideration on my work on Il-10.
At present time I haven't made deep research on the templates of the Il-2s. My Il-10 templates are a bit different, according to the suggestions of the few available photos, and I can't assure that they are fully valid for Il-2 too. If you show the photos of the Il-2 of your interest, we can try to see if they are compatible.
At the same time, I won't claim that EP's work is wrong without having examined it. Probably it's based on photos of some real Il-2, only one has to check the degree of generalization attributed to this template, and this can be done only after having compared it to the photos of the plane of your interest.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo. First off, thanks for approving my registration.

In my first post to this thread, I was confused because I didn't read your material closely enough to realize that your color profiles were for the Il-10, not the Il-2. In fact, the diagrams you present of the two versions of NKAP 1943 templates for the Il-2 are very close to what Mr. Pilawskii presents, so there's really no disagreement there. I'm planning to use markings from an Aeromaster sheet for what they call a "late-war Il-2" in the three-color camouflage with white "482" and white spinner. In the absence of any photographic documentation (I have none and know of none), I'll probably replicate version 1 of the NKAP template as presented by you and Mr. P. Interestingly, the camouflage scheme in the AM instructions looks very close to the NKAP version 1 template, but with AMT-1 and AMT-4 reversed. I wonder if AM had some documantary support for this  or if they simply got the color labels wrong.

Regards, Pip

Hi Jason - Do you have the Modelmaster ID numbers for those? Thanks!

John

PS - The FS numbers off the bottles would be helpful, too! Thanks again! ;)

Here they are, John.  Flat Black (AMT-6) - 1749, FS37038; Green (AMT-4) - 2029, FS34258; Afrika Dunkelgrau '42 (AMT-1) - 2103, no FS number; Russian Topside Blue (AMT-7) - 2126, no FS number; Gunship Gray (AMT-12) - 1723, FS36118; and Light Ghost Gray (A-14) - 1728, FS36375.  Although I haven't finished any VVS fighters recently, I may use Light Ghost Gray for the AMT-11, although I'm open to other suggestions as I don't particularly like the idea of one of my exterior colours being the same as my interior colour.

Regards,

Jason

Thanks, Jason! It's always a tough call when you want to use paints straight from the bottle or tin for what you're working on. I've been using your pick for A-14 even though it's certainly lighter than the "official" Akan A-14, but then real 1:1 scale A-14 looks lighter than the Akan paint in a lot of photos too. FWIW, I think AMT-11 needs more blue in it than MM Light Ghost Gray. I had pretty much settled on Humbrol 145, although again it is visibly lighter than the corresponding Akan acrylic. Scale effect and/or fading, of course... ;)

John

John, you may very well be right about the AMT-11.  As I said, I haven't painted any two grey-scheme fighters, so right now it's an academic question.  Since I like to stick to Testors Model Masters flat enamels (readily available and they work well with my airbrush) I'll need to pick a more appropriate colour from the oh, 50 or so greys that Testors make.  Light Ghost Gray may be a little light for A-14, but I've seen preserved pieces of A-14, on this site, which match it rather closely.  Closely enough for me.  Let's just say I think it's close enough where 10 years from now I won't look at VVS models I did now and go "what was I thinking?".  And of course, as you mention, there's the scale effect, fading, etc.

Regards,

Jason

FWIW, I rather like the mixing formula for AMT-11 found on the chart at http://scalewiki.ru/%D0%B0%D0%BC%D1%82: 70% Model Master Topside Blue to 30% black. If it appears too dark, one can lighten with white to taste.

Pip Moss

Thank you for the suggestion, Pip!  However, I like my paints already mixed.  No doubt I might obtain somewhat more accurate colours if I did mix my own.  The problem (besides being incorrigibly lazy) is that I don't trust myself to mix the paint up exactly the same way from batch to batch.  In my younger, wilder days I would mix paints, but when it came time to do some touch-up, and my original mixed paint had dried up (which it had invariably done by the time I finally spotted the mistake), I could never get the exact same mixture.  It scarred me for life.

Regards,

Jason

Hi all,
my work of classifying photos of Il-2 according to painting resemblance is giving some fruits. Here are photos of single-seater built in zavod 18 in Kuybishev.
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/1941-43/il2-factory18.jpg)
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/1941-43/il2wreck.jpg)
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/1941-43/il2-red8.jpg)
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/1941-43/il2n1.jpg)
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/1941-43/il2rus.jpeg)
They look all variants on one pattern.
It is the fourth black-green scheme identified till now.
Is it possibe to find other photos of similar planes before starting to trace a template?
Regards
Massimo

Massimo, that's a nice picture of "Red 8", the best I've seen so far.  I just completed my Hobby Boss kit of that same aeroplane.  Looks like I was a bit off on the camouflage.  Oh well, nobody else will know!  I'll look and see if I can't find some other photographs of similar patterns amongst my mass of IL-2 pictures.  It would be great if you started doing drawings of the IL-2's camouflage - of course, I will help in any way.

Regards,

Jason

Thanks Jason. On the right side, the planes are easily recognizable because they have a black blotch just under the tail star. On the other side... I'm not sure.
Regards
Massimo

Hi,
I hoped to update the page before leaving for holidays, but I fear I won't have time enough.
Please, have a look at http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/il2-camo.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/il2-camo.htm) and let me know your impressions.
Regards
Massimo

WOW! One more "arrow" three-color scheme!
Quite interesting possibility, I would like to see other opinions on this one.

BTW, excellent work on the expansion of references, Massimo. Keep up with the good work  :)

regards
Aleksandar

Thank you Aleksandar.
Please, feel free to express any comment useful to improve the page.
Regards
Massimo

It's looking good, Massimo.  To everyone I have to confess that one good reason that Massimo hasn't updated the IL-2 page more is that I have been slow in reviewing his line drawings that he's placing his colour camouflages on, which Massimo was kind enough to give to me too look at for any additions/corrections (the line drawings).  Still, excellent work so far, Massimo, and when you get back from vacation (have a good time!) I'll have reviewed all the drawings and sent you any additions/corrections.

Regards,

Jason

Hi,
I've updated the page on Il-2 at http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/il2-camo.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/il2-camo.htm), thanks to the help of Jason, AR and all those that gave suggestions and photos.
Please have a look and let me know any impression.
I have doubts about the localization of this photo:
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/IL-2-2-SeatersinBlack-GreenFactoryFinish.jpg)
and this one
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/il2-closeline.jpg)
Captions say factory 18 in Kuybishev.
But for what I know the style of painting of Kuybyshev for singleseaters was
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/il2-sp-fl-amv-3view-col-zavod18.jpg)
and was preserved on subcessive Il2M3
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/il2-15bis.jpg)
What, then? Have they changed their style and then reverted to the previous one, or are the factories misidentified?
Regards
Massimo

That photograph of the aircraft park appears to be on the steppes (I believe there are steppes to the south of Kuibyshev, now called Samara), not in an urban setting (Moscow), so that would leave out Zavod No. 30 (which even if it were in the suburbs, should have had many trees, although I suppose those could be tree-covered low hills in the background?).  However, both Zavod No. 1 and Zavod No. 18 were based in Kuibyshev so how could you distinguish between them?  However, I'm sure Konstantin knows more about the land characteristics around Moscow and Kuibyshev (Samara) so this is just my tuppence.

Regards,

Jason

Hi, look at this Il-2.
The wing looks of arrow-type at my eyes, but the position of the antenna mast is typical of single-seaters. This combination should be unexisting.
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/il2-closeline.jpg)
Any ideas?
Regards
Massimo

I think that's a single-seater, Massimo.  Look at the cannon; although it has the fairing as you would see with a VYa 23mm, it has a ShVAK 20mm fitted instead (see how short the barrel is).  I don't think any of the arrows had the 20mm's fitted, although I know some of the earlier IL-2's used them when there was a shortage of 23mm cannons.  Also look at the landing light cover - it appears rounded.  From the pictures I've examined, it seems that the single-seaters (at least some of them), had a more rounded landing light cover than the two-seaters, which would have had a rectangular cover.

Regards,

Jason

It's a tough call - sometimes, depending on camera angle, the dihedral of the outer wing panel can make photos of the non-arrow wing leading edge appear to have more sweepback than it really does.

John

Hi Jason, hi John,
thank you for your suggestions. Neverthless, this image gives to me the impression of a strong change of angulation of the wing at the nacelle. Pity that there is not a sharp shadow on the ground, this would have resolved completely my doubts.
By the way: is this a wooden wing, in your idea?
Regards
Massimo

Hi,
are these planes straight-winged or arrows, in your idea?
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/il2-w63.jpg)
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/il2-7.jpg)
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/il2-15bis.jpg)
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/il2-am37-winter.jpg)
(note the underwing guns)
Regards
Massimo

Major Bamshin's "15" bellied June 1943 -> straight wing.

Cheers,

AaCee

Massimo, I believe all of them are straight-winged; look at the short antenna masts (and the early style gunner's canopy on the first photograph), except for the last one, "Red 28" which has a long antenna mast, but which is still definitely a straight-winged two-seater (I don't believe the 37mm cannons were ever fitted to operational arrows).

Regards,

Jason

The antenna mast and the rounded landing light cover clinch it for me; it's a single-seater.  As far as the wing-covering, it looks to have some panelling apparent on the outer wing panel so it's probably a metal-winged single-seater, although it is hard to tell about the wing covering.

Regards,

Jason

Hi Jason and AaCee, thank you for your suggestions.
Plane n.28 shows, aside a tall mast, also the pitot probe apparently in outer position, as arrows. Maybe they changed the position of the pitot on late production Il-2M (I know that this name isn't right, but at least it's clear) to match that of Il-2M3?
Regards
Massimo

That pitot tube does look like it's in the outer position, but the trailing edge looks like that of a straight-winger, and I'm still very doubtful that 37mm cannons were ever fitted to arrows.  The reason I believe this is that by the time the arrow starting entering production in fall of 1943, the 37mm cannon armament had already fallen out of favour, and I find it hard to believe that the Soviets would have fitted an armament that was being phased out to brand-new arrows.  You may be right about the pitot tube position being changed on the late straight-winged two-seaters; this is just the sort of relatively small detail change that wouldn't be mentioned prominently in references, and according to Oleg Rastrenin, the real expert on the Shturmovik, detail changes happened all the time to the IL-2.

Regards,

Jason

Hi Jason,
it would be interesting to state if the position of the pitot probe has changed before turning to arrows, as the aerial mast has.
Regards
Massimo

Indeed, Massimo.  An interesting question - I'll have a look at my photographs to see if I can determine whether that were the case or not.

Regards,

Jason

Hi Massimo,  :)

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/il2str.jpg)

Those two Il-2 were not downed in Finlad.  They were captured at Shatalovo airfield, Smolensk region

(http://i071.radikal.ru/1011/c2/94810a1b81ea.jpg)

Cheers,
KL

Hi Konstantin,
thank you, there is written the date too...
Regards
Massimo

Hi,
these planes have somehing in common of strange
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/il2-7.jpg)
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/il2-15bis.jpg)
They are very similar, but not the very same plane.
These photos should be of mid 1943. They represent the only ones I have where it can be recognized the style of factory n.18,
with the characteristic blotch on the tail; this style was much more seen on singleseaters as this:
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/il2-smc5b.jpg)
both black bands and outlined stars are similar, but the twoseaters seems to have much less black.
Not only, both photos show traces of painting with a lighter color on the wings and tail.
Now, is this a work made at unit level? But so coherent? And the lack of black, much beyond the 50% of the surface, doesn't suggest place for a third color since when the plane was built?
Any suggestions? Aren't there photos possibly related to those planes?
Regards
Massimo

Perhaps these aircraft were painted similarly to the strangely painted "White 24", with its apparent combination of the black/green camouflage, and a lighter colour, perhaps an early application of AMT-1?

Regards,

Jason

15.8.'41 could be the date when photo was taken (I can't read German).  Airfield and Il-2s were captured earlier, in July 1941.


There is a possible relationship - same time (July 1941), same place (Smolensk reg).  I also believe the lighter colour is light brown/yellowish/sand, a colour appropriate for summer: either early AMT-1 or some Army equivalent.  This lighter colour is better visible on more contrast photos:

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/Schatalowka3-colourIl-2.jpg)

Too bad Massimo sticks to the "Manchurian Influence" and AE-9.   ;)  Light gray doesn?t make sense. :-X

Cheers,
KL

Hi Konstantin and Jason,


it is likely, but I would know if this was done in factory or on the field. At present time, there are the only photos I have of two-seaters of Zavod 18, and I have to trace the pattern. Provisionally, I've traced it in black and green, but I have still some doubt because the green is more abundant than the black, and this is suspicious.



white 24... do you mean the Il-2 or the Pe-2?

Regards
Massimo

"White 24" was an IL-2 attached to the Black Sea Fleet, probably in 1943 (although I've seen 1942 as the date it was photographed).  It has been interpreted in a variety of different colours and schemes, although there seems to be a general consensus on the fuselage colours and scheme, which have the forward fuselage in black/green, and the wooden part of the fuselage in "light brown", black, and green.  Below are photographs of my attempt to reproduce the scheme (I'm not entirely happy even with my own interpretation and will probably redo it to some extent).

Regards,

Jason

(http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx323/Learstang/White24-MyModel3.jpg)

(http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx323/Learstang/White24-MyModel2.jpg)

I referred to Pe-2 "White 24", recently discussed at http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1119.0

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/pe2/pe2-earlycamo24/24g.jpg)

as related to the Il-2 captured in July 1941

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/Schatalowka3-colourIl-2.jpg)

Cheers,
KL

For non-standard, field applied 3-colour schemes before summer 1943, i would consider Army camouflage colours:  4BO, 6K and 7K.
Army camouflage colours had been produced before 1941.  AMT-1 has been produced from 1943.

4BO
(http://akan.ru/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/4________________4d2ee75d79153.jpg)

6K
(http://akan.ru/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/6K_______________4dc6ea11e5e0d.jpg)

7K
(http://akan.ru/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/7________________4dc6ea289a8d6.jpg)

table with similar model paints at  http://www.platcdarm.ru/poleznaya-informatsiya/tablica-sootvetstviya-okraski-bronetankovyx-vojsk-cccr-1941

Cheers,
KL

Interesting colours, Konstantin.  That 7K looks a bit like AMT-1.  And that 6K looks like our old friend, AII Brown!  :)

Regards,

Jason

Hi Jason and Konstantin,

To be honest, I have to say that I failed to see the rear brown band on the fuselage on avaiable photos of n.24. I see only, and vaguely, the small one on the central part.
However, should the bands traced by Viktor be found, they resembles to that of the plane red 4, a single-seater, so it should be taken in consideration that they could be faded black over green.

Thank you for the link, however for what I knowAMT-1 was formulated in 1941, probably produced in small quantity since then and only introduced on standard templates in 1943.

Regards
Massimo

I would say:  AMT-1 was formulated in 1941, small quantity produced before June 22nd, tested on LaGG-3s in Plant 21 by Chebotarevski (paint designer).
Large quantity production started in 1943, at the time when 3-colour camouflage scheme was introduced.


What is more likely to be used in field to camouflage Il-2s and Pe-2s - test batch AMT-1 or Army camouflage paints? All this during the chaotic first 2-3 weeks of the operation Barbarossa...

Cheers,
KL

Hi,
I've updated the page, splitting it into two subpages, for single-seaters and two seaters. I've added new drawings too.
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il-2.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il-2.htm)
Regards
Massimo

Looking good, Massimo!  It helps me in my ongoing research into the paint schemes utilised on the Shturmovik.

Regards,

Jason

Nice work!  The pages look very good.  Makes me want to do an Il-2!

For the love of Bog, don't!  That's how it starts - with just one IL-2.  Then before you can say "AII Brown was never used", you're sucked inexorably into a descending spiral of madness. I know!

Regards,

Jason

And just like the devil - they look better in black!  ;D

Anyway, I've had the 1/48 AM kits in the stash for years.

I just got a hold of the Eduard "kit bash" of the straight-winged two-seater ("IL-2M").  They just put the AM straight wings with the AM arrow fuselage in the same kit, with some masks, appropriate decals, and some photo-etch.  Very nice kit; I've actually started cutting the pieces off the sprues and I'm tempted to start working on it, but it's not really my scale, and I've got two 1/72nd scale Shturmoviks I'm working on right now.  I'm doing the Eduard arrow (also a very nice kit), as a postwar Yugoslavian example (simple grey over blue paint scheme and I can leave the fuselage metal), and the Eastern Express rebrand of the Dakoplast single-seater, which I'm doing as "Red 7", an interesting wooden-winged single-seater with a black underfuselage and white splotches on the aft fuselage and the wings.  In addition to these, I've got a field-modified single-seater (with the makeshift rear gunner position), and an IL-2KR that I need to finish painting.  The madness continues.

Regards,

Jason

Hi Jason,
is there an Il-2M of Eduard? I didn't know!
And what about the field modification into two-seater and Il-2KR? Are they resin conversions?
Regards
Massimo

Massimo, Eduard did indeed produce an "IL-2M", although it's now out of production.  I found mine on eBay and it wasn't cheap - over $50USD including shipping, but I'd say it was worth it.  No doubt Eduard will resissue it sometime when they finally tire of issuing every variant of the Bf-109E.  The field mod is a nice resin conversion kit from HR, complete with modified rear canopy, decals, and guns with the appropriate mounting ring (either a 7.62mm Degtyarev or a 12.7mm UBT).  The IL-2KR I'm making myself (there's not much more to it than attaching the antenna mast to the front, although I should have cut down the fuel tank for the large radio, but I don't think I'm going to do this as I decided to make this arrow into an IL-2KR after I'd already put the cockpit detail in and the canopy on).  I could still attach a large camera on the gun mount - I might just do that; it would certainly be something different.

Regards,

Jason

I've now actually found a resin conversion set for the IL-2KR on eBay.  In addition to parts for an IL-2KR (including the radio and camera), it comes with a conversion set for a ShKAS-armed field modified Shturmovik, and a production straight-winged two-seater version, along with a photo-etched set.  This boxed set was made by someone called Meritko, apparently Czech.  It's definitely worth it if you can find it.  I suspect it's long out of production.  It appears to be designed for the Smer single-seater but the parts can be used on just about any 1/72nd scale Shturmovik kit.  I paid around $42USD for it.  Not cheap, but I'm glad I bought it.

Regards,

Jason

Part of that set (or one like it) is still available from HR Model:
http://www.hannants.co.uk/product/HRMC7222

Also go here for more discussion, somewhere on page 2:
http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=80844&st=0

John

Thank you, John!  I have actually bought two of the HR sets, and I've done the ShKAS-armed conversion, and just need to finish the painting (some day).  I intend on also doing the UBT field mod; in fact, I plan on doing the 1/32nd scale Hobby Boss kit as this version as I even have the masks for the markings (thanks to Viktor Povinsky).  I also need to start checking Britmodeller more often - I missed that thread completely!  I did just now leave my tuppence, however.

Regards,

Jason

Hi John,

The discussion on colors at Britmodeller is interesting, but, collecting the photos of Il-2 at http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il-2.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il-2.htm), I had the impression that the known schemes and colors were well respected on this type, apart for few images of obviously non-standard camos.
Regards
Massimo

Hi,
a pair of interesting images from the thread on Il-2 on Scalemodels.ru:

(http://s10.postimage.org/4b3gxx1v9/image.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/4b3gxx1v9/)

Why is it so reddish?

(http://s7.postimage.org/dhavmwax3/1210888217_il2_10.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/dhavmwax3/)

interesting pattern, even if uncommonly seen. It has to be made by masking.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo! I was getting red X's, so I took the liberty of going in and editing your post to show the correct thumbnails from PostImage.org.

Cheers!
John

I notice that in some places, the red seems to shade into the yellow (ALG-1?).  Perhaps it's just ALG-1 that turned red over the decades.  About the camouflage, that is interesting the way the bands on the starboard wing "interlock".  That would make an interesting subject for your IL-2 page, Massimo, if you can figure out the rest of the camouflage.

Regards,

Jason

Hi John,
thank you for editing my post.
Hi Jason, I can trace all the camo from this photo, but it's too strange that I haven't yet found photos of operative planes with the same pattern. Maybe the masks were made of paper and lasted for few planes only.
Regards
Massimo

HI sure this has come up before, just a reminder, as to what I presume is how AMT-1 weathers.

IL-2 at pinemyra, http://tihlde.org/~ktsorens/flyvrak/pinemyra.html

(http://tihlde.org/~ktsorens/flyvrak/pinemyra-02.jpg)

HTH
T

Hi Troy,
yes, this is much more saturate than what we expect from new AMT-1. But it's still not so reddish.
I wonder if the reddish brown of the first photo was a primer. Maybe people that took the photo knows if the reddish shade was above or below the yellowish one.
Regards
Massimo

Hi all,
I've updated both the page on Il-2 and the page on  I-16 with some new commented photos. Besides I've divided the page on I-16 into two pages, and probably I'll split it again at the next update. They are all accessible from http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/index.html (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/index.html)
Regards
Massimo

Hi,
I've seen that I have misinterpreted these photos.
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/puzzlewing.jpg)

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/1084c.jpg)

I thought that they were black-green, but now I see that they are arrow-winged planes, and the camo is compatible with the template 1 of the camouflage introduced in 1943.
The camouflage on wings stabilizer and rear fuselage is sharp and repetitive, probably made by mask, while the metal paert of fuselage and wing is much less contrasted, it looks nearly uniform. The wings are painted before to be mounted on the fuselage, and it's likely that the same thing is for the rear fuselage.

Operative planes with this livery? Perhaps the strange Il-2KR of this photo
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/il2m3-kr-482.jpg)
and plane n,53, another KR.  

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/kr53.jpg)The puzzle-like variant of scheme n.1 was utilized to restore the Il-2 of Prague museum, although probably with unaccurate shades.
The most impressive thing is the difference in contrast between the colors of the wooden parts and of the metallic parts.
It's likely that the factory was  Zavod 1 in Kuybyshev, not zavod 18 in the same town, because the most of the KR were made there, and I think thaf Factory n.18 made always planes with metal wings.
Regards
Massimo

Are you sure that's not Zavod 18, Massimo?  At any rate, the wings of the aircraft on the production lines look metal to me as they have the gun access panels that were seen on metal-winged arrows.  That IL-2KR no.482 also looks like it might be metal-winged.

Regards,

Jason

Hi Jason,
sure... surely not. If they have metal wings, there has to be another explanation for the different contrast between wing and fuselage. It would be good to know the year when the photo was taken.
Regards
Massimo

It's Zavod 18 for sure!  No doubts or guessing there.  Photo was dated as May 1943 (can't remember where I found that; internet or books  ???).  There is a chance that photo is misdated, but you should have better evidence than (probably unrelated) Il-2KR camouflage scheme to proove a different date.
Caution with arrow - usually it isn't so easy to distinguish it on photos.
KL

Hi Konstantin,
I don't think that the date is right. If you compare it with the templates of august 1943, you'll see that they perfectly fit it.

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/1943-45-bombers/tem-il2-43r.jpg)

Besides the wing ammo hatches divided into three squared ones are typical of arrows, probably of metal arrows only, introduced in late 1943. So, if the date is wrong, the place is dubious too.
Regards
Massimo

Thank you for the confirmation about the factory, Konstantin!  I'd seen that patriotic banner before in pictures of Zavod 18, but for all I knew they had that in all the zavodi that produced the Shturmovik (perhaps they did).  Regarding the date, if it is May 1943, these can't be arrows.  You're correct about it being difficult sometimes to determine if it's an arrow or straight wing.  However, if you look at the nearest IL-2 in the first photograph, the wing sweepback on the leading edge looks too extreme to be a straight-winger, which means these photographs are misdated.  Hard to tell.  However, I think that Massimo is correct about these having the three-colour scheme, which wouldn't have been used in May 1943. 

Regards,

Jason

Sorry guys,  :(
Rastrenin says it's Zavod 30, Moscow!!!  No dates...

I had in my mind a different set of photos  :-\
(http://waralbum.ru/wp-content/uploads/yapb_cache/sssr_a_0087c.eplpk4io4zk0cco80gc4k4cc4.ejcuplo1l0oo0sk8c40s8osc4.th.jpeg)

KL

No problem, Konstantin!  This photograph is interesting in that it shows that some of the metal-winged early two-seaters had the gun access panels like the single-seaters (one small panel, then one long rectangular panel).  What I'm still trying to find out is when the change to the three small panels on the metal wing was made - was it made during the production run of the straight-winged two-seater, or was the change made with the metal arrow wing?  Another interesting item about this photograph is that it doesn't look to me like these aeroplanes have been painted with the camouflage scheme yet.  The metal parts may not have been painted at all - look at the reflection of the technician on the port wing of the nearest aircraft.

Regards,

Jason

Jason/Massimo,
I have checked my literature and except for Rastrenin, all Russian authors have routinely identified all of those production photos as Zavod 18, Kuibishev.

It is clear that there are at least two sets (possibly 3) taken at different times; one in 1942/43 and the other one photographed later in 1943/44.

1942/43 set is clearly Zavod 18:

(http://www.frontalbum.ru/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/img253.jpg)
(http://www.frontalbum.ru/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/162.jpg)
(http://www.frontalbum.ru/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/171.jpg)
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Il-2_Photos/0_1c5a6_42b7a5d3_XL.jpg)

"Aviakor" in Samara (former Zavod 18) just few years ago:
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Il-2_Photos/AviakorCeh54s640x480.jpg)

KL

Good photographs, Konstantin!  I've seen some of them before, but not a big and detailed as these.  It definitely looks like the wings aren't painted.  Aren't Aviakor the outfit that restored the flyable Shturmovik?  Are they operating out of Zavod 18 now?

Regards,

Jason

Good research, Konstantin. It's definitely the same place.
A comment on the planes: they look all unpainted, but it seems that the light blue under the fuselage has already painted on. They look singleseaters for the position of the radio mast, with late type straight wing. Seeing the dresses of the operators, I would say it tas taken in mid 1942.
Regards
Massimo

If this is mid 1942, then these Shturmoviks should have the "late" metal wing, with 23mm VYa cannons and the larger panels on the wingroot.  I can't tell if they have the larger wingroot panels, but they do have the 23mm-type cannon fairings.  From these, it's apparent that the late single-seater metal wing had metal ailerons (at least for Zavod 18 and this production batch).  They don't appear to have the external carburettor filter intakes, but perhaps these haven't been installed yet on the production line.

Regards,

Jason

Hi Jason,
perhaps... We'll have to check again because I thought to have seen photos with fabric-covered ailerons.
Regards
Massimo

Recent Il-2 restoration was done in Novosibirsk by "Aviarestavratsiya".  Restauration project was supposedly "supported" by Aviakor, although it is known that it was financed by Paul Allen.  Last fall restored Il-2 visited Samara where it was shown to a group of veterans (Zavod 18 workers), photos at:
http://gc3-normandie.livejournal.com/12268.html

(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-_Ev7L472tco/TraQ2GYWnqI/AAAAAAAAKJQ/TDLTAjRn_hQ/s800/28.JPG)

In 2009, Aviakor had "restored" Samara Il-2 monument:  note authentic colours and markings  ;D

(http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/3/7/7/1608773.jpg)

(http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/4/7/7/1608774.jpg)

(http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/337972.jpg)

Nice link, Konstantin, thank you!  Is that Zavod 18 in the background?

Regards,

Jason

It's "Aviakor", former Zavod 18 in the background.

(http://hotimg23.fotki.com/a/95_67/187_246/2_resize.jpg)

more photos of the restored Il-2 in Samara at: http://samara-ru.livejournal.com/5832814.html

Ailerons?   ??? :o
(http://photopolygon.com/photo/fit/2941/13127/75300.jpg.700)

Samara Il-2 monument walkaround at:  http://legion-afv.narod.ru/IL-2_Samara.html

I think that they went a little overboard in making this Shturmovik weatherproof!  I'm surprised they didn't make the canopy completely metal.

Regards,

Jason

Massimo, this may be a fabric-covered aileron on a late single-seater metal wing.

Regards,

Jason

(http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx323/Learstang/IL-2-1-Seater-PossibleFabric-CoveredAilerononMetalWing.jpg)

Good image Jason. Is it a part of a larger photo? It could be useful to check the hatches on the wing.

Hi Konstantin,
the plane in Samara isn't exactly a jewel. Prop and spinner are of another plane... but at least are there.

Regards
Massimo

Here's the entire photograph, Massimo.

Regards,

Jason

(http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx323/Learstang/IL-2-1-Seater-WreckwithUndersideofWingShow.jpg)

Hi Jason,
thank you. On the single-seater, the hatches are really rectangular.
Regards
Massimo