Sovietwarplanes

Great Patriotic War Aviation => Painting standards during the GPW => Topic started by: xan on May 06, 2011, 11:01:34 AM



Title: search to find paint references for VVS colours 1941/43
Post by: xan on May 06, 2011, 11:01:34 AM
Hello her'e a link to show you the conclusion we had trying to find references in tamiya gunze and humbrol for AMT-4, AMT-6 and AMY-7 paints.
this post is interesting know in 1939/1941 paints...
The post is in french, but with a little help from google traductor...
you will find here four menber of this forum: Apex, pascal (gretsch), spokito and I (Xan)

http://www.master194.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=54267&hilit=+VVS (http://www.master194.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=54267&hilit=+VVS)

in English:
http://translate.google.fr/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.master194.com%2Fforum%2Fviewtopic.php%3Ff%3D3%26t%3D54267%26hilit%3D%2BVVS&sl=fr&tl=en&hl=&ie=UTF-8 (http://translate.google.fr/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.master194.com%2Fforum%2Fviewtopic.php%3Ff%3D3%26t%3D54267%26hilit%3D%2BVVS&sl=fr&tl=en&hl=&ie=UTF-8)

Xan


Title: Re: search to find paint references for VVS colours 1941/43
Post by: John Thompson on May 06, 2011, 04:54:11 PM
Hi Xan - that's a really interesting thread; thank you for posting the links! I attempted the same thing several times trying to find a true identification of AMT-7, but as that thread shows, there is some disagreement among the various authorities. I've almost decided that (for my own use, at least - as my friend Apex1701 suggests in the last post on page 1, we will probably never find the real answer!) Humbrol 47 is a possibility, although Hu89 is also worth considering - it's very close to a lightened sample of the Akan acrylic AMT-7. Obviously I can easily be persuaded to change my mind... ;)

John


Title: Re: search to find paint references for VVS colours 1941/43
Post by: learstang on May 06, 2011, 05:57:57 PM
Xan, thank you for the links.  For what it's worth, and I've already mentioned this in other threads (as John can attest), I use Testors Model Master flat enamel Russian Topside Blue for AMT-7.  I think it's a pretty good match.  It's not as bright as the WEM AMT-7, and appears to have a little grey to it.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: search to find paint references for VVS colours 1941/43
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 06, 2011, 11:05:12 PM
This is really an interesting topic. I am even listed between the authorities, even if with a different name.... I like it ;)
Massimo


Title: Re: search to find paint references for VVS colours 1941/43
Post by: Pascal on May 06, 2011, 11:27:25 PM
even if with a different name.... I like it ;)Massimo

Don't worry Massimo, it is Xan's specialty... ;D

Pascal


Title: Re: search to find paint references for VVS colours 1941/43
Post by: KL on May 12, 2011, 08:21:06 AM
Xan, thanks for the interesting link!

Good to see familiar names there ? people who are members of this forum or those who participated in ARC forum discussions.  Good to see that there is an interest for VVS colours and that modelers are doing their homework ? they are trying to figure out what are the authentic VVS colours.

That said, I can?t understand why modelers there still consider Pilawskii as a source? ???
Pilawskii?s problem is not that he had missed a shade of green or shade of blue.  More serious problem with him is that he had made up stories that he is trying to sell as history -  Events that never happend.  In same fashion, he had invented colours and camouflage schemes that never existed.

It doesn?t make sense to compare Akan(-Orlov) paints with WEM(-Pilawskii) paints.  That is like comparing Revell?s Fw-190 kit from 1960-es with modern Japanese Fw-190 kits ? the old kit is simply WRONG!

I am not saying that Akan is the absolute truth:  some colours may have been lighter or glossier, but those are currently the most accurate colours!

Cheers,
KL


Title: Re: search to find paint references for VVS colours 1941/43
Post by: mholly on May 12, 2011, 10:11:22 AM
Quote
why modelers there still consider Pilawskii as a source? ???
Because there is still nothing in English (French, German, Spanish...) out there.
Regardless I fully agree with your posting.
Cheers,
Mario


Title: Re: search to find paint references for VVS colours 1941/43
Post by: xan on May 12, 2011, 04:22:04 PM
Hello konstantin,
think for interesting in our "research"
That said, I can?t understand why modelers there still consider Pilawskii as a source? ???
well, just because Pilawskii's book is surely the best know book about VVS colours during the GPW.
It was the first book I bought abd I thought then it was the ultimate and definitive book...
Our is find clear references of paints for the french modelers in paints easy to catch (witch is not the case of Akan paints)
so it seems me normal to explain wich are the different posotions around the colours...
I don't agree with Pilawskii's choise, but it seem inportant to me to show what he thinks, because you can not like it at all, but it's an important person in this subject.

It doesn?t make sense to compare Akan(-Orlov) paints with WEM(-Pilawskii) paints.

Oh yes I think it does!
WEM are know for the quality of its work in paints. For peaple it's a serius reference. If WEM did a wrong choise taking the Pilawskii's colours, , we have to show it and explain why do we think that...

I am not saying that Akan is the absolute truth:  some colours may have been lighter or glossier, but those are currently the most accurate colours!

I agree with you, colours are really accurate, and I bought all the VVS colours.
Does someone know if english, german, american and japan colours are as accurate than the soviets ? (I'm interested in the english azur blue...)

however I'm very happy to learn more about VVS colours thanks to you in this forum; if I decided to participate in it, it means that I definitively do my choice about pilawskii's work!
 ;)

Xan








Title: Re: search to find paint references for VVS colours 1941/43
Post by: KL on May 13, 2011, 08:21:07 AM
Hi Xan,   :)

I re-read the tread and I have realized that you guys are on the right track!  Congratulations!
WEM AMT-7 is wrong thanks to Pilawskii....  8)  Pilawskii is actually a negative character there?  ;D

I don't agree with Pilawskii's choise, but it seem inportant to me to show what he thinks, because you can not like it at all, but it's an important person   :o in this subject.

Why is Pilawskii important????

?   Pilawskii is not the first author who wrote about VVS colours.  In 1960es certain authors wrote about green-brown Jaks and Shtormovicks.  Willam Green wrote in 1970es how Jaks were manufactured at the combine factory in Saratov and how they were painted with tractor paints there.

?   Pilawskii?s book might be the first book in English dedicated to VVS colours.

?   Pilawskii?s book is not the only book about VVS colours in English now.  There is Migliardi-Hornat?s book too.

?   Pilawskii?s book is not the only resource about VVS colours available in English.  Internet sources like this forum are generally more reliable.

In short  >:(:  Pilawskii?s book is the first, unsuccessful, attempt to write a book about VVS WWII colours.  Better to forget it and its author, like those authors from 1960es and 1970es.

Cheers,  :)
KL 


Title: Re: search to find paint references for VVS colours 1941/43
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 13, 2011, 08:44:00 AM
Well, I wouldn't be fully negative. Being the first book is already something. The book has many informations, photos and templates. Many of them could be good.
The problem with his work is his unreliability. He has always hidden his sources, refusing a peer discussion on his work and protecting himself behind silly excuses or arrogance or citations that often have been found unconsistent. This prevented the possibility to improve this self-declared bible in costructive way.
I am thinking that at least half of what is written is good. The problem is which half. If one makes his own research to check this, at the end he has documents enough to write a new book, no need of this one.
By the way, what about the translation of the booklet of Orlov?
Regards
Massimo :)


Title: Re: search to find paint references for VVS colours 1941/43
Post by: xan on May 13, 2011, 10:22:17 AM
Why is Pilawskii important????
just because he is well know by the modelers, but we spoke enough about Pilawskii we all agree about he...

?   Pilawskii?s book is not the only book about VVS colours in English now.  There is Migliardi-Hornat?s book too.
I read his book; what do you think about Hornat ?
Why don't he admits the AII coulours and speak about the A18F and A19F, who were paint for metal ?
As Pilawskii, he speaks about a A19F/dark green colour for the first two tons camouflage... (Konstantin, I do know it ain't true, that's just what he say ;))
Is it close to Pilawskii, and a follower of him ?

Xan



Title: Re: search to find paint references for VVS colours 1941/43
Post by: KL on May 14, 2011, 05:50:29 AM
... what do you think about Hornat ?
... Is it close to Pilawskii, and a follower of him ?

Hornat is one of the authors who wrote about Soviet WWII colours long, long before Pilawskii.  Hornat wrote about Soviet planes for the Czech magazine Letectvi+Kosmonautika and in late 1980es he published several texts about Soviet WWII colours there. He discovered a copy of 1943 NKAP camouflage templates somewhere in Czechoslovakia and he published them in 1989.  This was the highlight of his activities in this field.

My opinion about the ?Colors of the Falcons?:
First, there are two authors ? it?s not clear what is Hornat?s and what is Migliardy?s.
Second, it is important to note that this book appeared after  1999 Orlov?s and Vahlamov?s series in M-Hobby magazine and after Pilawskii?s ?SAFFC? Magnum opus.  There are some pieces of information that could be traced back to Orlov & Vahlamov and there are treasures like ?South Front scheme? that are taken straight from Pilawskii.

In short: Colors of the Falcons is like ?ensalada mixta? or ?dog?s breakfast?.  Some useful information mixed with misconceptions, errors and fantasies coming from you know where?
Recommended for the serious students who can separate useful from the remaining garbage!!!

Cheers,  :)
KL


Title: Re: search to find paint references for VVS colours 1941/43
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 14, 2011, 07:15:46 AM
Hi KL and Xan,
Quote
My opinion about the ?Colors of the Falcons?:
First, there are two authors ? it?s not clear what is Hornat?s and what is Migliardy?s.
Second, it is important to note that this book appeared after  1999 Orlov?s and Vahlamov?s series in M-Hobby magazine and after Pilawskii?s ?SAFFC? Magnum opus.  There are some pieces of information that could be traced back to Orlov & Vahlamov and there are treasures like ?South Front scheme? that are taken straight from Pilawskii.

In short: Colors of the Falcons is like ?ensalada mixta? or ?dog?s breakfast?.  Some useful information mixed with misconceptions, errors and fantasies coming from you know where?
Recommended for the serious students who can separate useful from the remaining garbage!!!

I think to have read somewhere that there was a previous edition of this book a dozen of years ago. If so, this would have been the first serious work in English.

In facts, the text doesn't appear copied from Pilawskii, because it never citates AII colors; I suspect that it's the contrary, that is one of the secret sources of EP.
Despite some omissions and some unconfirmed paints, the research looks of high level. I suspect even that Russian authors have taken informations from him, maybe from the old articles in Czech on LK.

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: search to find paint references for VVS colours 1941/43
Post by: xan on May 14, 2011, 09:10:15 AM
thanks to both of you
Xan


Title: Re: search to find paint references for VVS colours 1941/43
Post by: Apex1701 on May 14, 2011, 03:03:55 PM
Hi guys,

glad to be back to VVS modelling.

Hornat and Migliardi were/are active members of IPMS-Canada.
Lot of articles on hungarian WW2 planes was published in the IPMS-Canads magazine "Random Thoughts" way back in the late '70s and '80s by Hornat.
Since I'm no longer a member since '85 I don't know more recently.

As for Migliardi he is still an active member and being a graphic designer he was responsible for the publication of RT.
I suspect he is responsible of the graphic part of Colors of the Falcons.

In the intro of Colors Hornat states that his early works on VVS were published in " Letecvi + Kosmonautika " in the '80s.
That was before Vakhlamov and Orlov.


All the best.
Jean







Title: Re: search to find paint references for VVS colours 1941/43
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 14, 2011, 10:49:57 PM
Quote
Hornat and Migliardi were/are active members of IPMS-Canada.
Lot of articles on hungarian WW2 planes was published in the IPMS-Canads magazine "Random Thoughts" way back in the late '70s and '80s by Hornat.
Since I'm no longer a member since '85 I don't know more recently.

As for Migliardi he is still an active member and being a graphic designer he was responsible for the publication of RT.
I suspect he is responsible of the graphic part of Colors of the Falcons.

In the intro of Colors Hornat states that his early works on VVS were published in " Letecvi + Kosmonautika " in the '80s.
That was before Vakhlamov and Orlov.

Hi Jean, thank you for the explanations.
I've googled a bit, but I've not found again anything about a previous edition in English of this book, dated 2006. Perhaps it was some misunderstandment of me.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: search to find paint references for VVS colours 1941/43
Post by: mholly on May 15, 2011, 02:38:17 AM
Hi KL and Xan,
Quote
My opinion about the ?Colors of the Falcons?:
First, there are two authors ? it?s not clear what is Hornat?s and what is Migliardy?s.
Second, it is important to note that this book appeared after  1999 Orlov?s and Vahlamov?s series in M-Hobby magazine and after Pilawskii?s ?SAFFC? Magnum opus.  There are some pieces of information that could be traced back to Orlov & Vahlamov and there are treasures like ?South Front scheme? that are taken straight from Pilawskii.

In short: Colors of the Falcons is like ?ensalada mixta? or ?dog?s breakfast?.  Some useful information mixed with misconceptions, errors and fantasies coming from you know where?
Recommended for the serious students who can separate useful from the remaining garbage!!!

I think to have read somewhere that there was a previous edition of this book a dozen of years ago. If so, this would have been the first serious work in English.

In facts, the text doesn't appear copied from Pilawskii, because it never citates AII colors; I suspect that it's the contrary, that is one of the secret sources of EP.
Despite some omissions and some unconfirmed paints, the research looks of high level. I suspect even that Russian authors have taken informations from him, maybe from the old articles in Czech on LK.

Regards
Massimo
Gentlemen,
Let me try to clarify and/or add some facts. You may (or not) know that Jiri ("Jerry") Hornat is a Czech national.
I think he resides in Prague. He had been very actively contributing to Czechoslovak aviation magazine "Letectvi+Kosmonautika"
(Aviation and Cosmonautics) in the section "Male Letectvi" (Small Avation) predictably dedicated to plastic modelers.
He also co-authored several publications of the series "Triada" (trilogy) featuring references for 3 different aircraft
and even later "4+" publications.
About 2 years ago, when my interest in VVS "re-vitalized", I tried to obtain his (so many times mentioned) article
about VVS camouflage which was indeed published in L+K in 1989.
I narrowed down the search to November 1989 issues (probably 2 or more since L+K was/is a bi-weekly) magazine.
My first attempt thru contacts in Czech Republic failed but a fellow modeler in Slovakia
positively has them. They are however stored away and it'll take some time to obtain the copies.
I've been most curious about Hornat's sources. I even tried to contact him directly but that didn't work either due to
health issues. I think if we knew his sources it would explain certain "inconsistencies" in his "Colors of Falcons" which we
at this time call "mistakes and/or omissions". I'm sure there had been "somebody" researching this matter before
Vakhlamov/Orlov. I even have indirect proof. I was recently communicating with Claes Sundin from Sweden.
For those who don't know he is the author of incredible color profiles, especially Luftwaffe subjects. His profiles
also appeared in "Black Cross Red Star" series of books. When I was looking there at some VVS subject I noticed some
"not-quite-correct" camo paint description such as AMT-17 Sky Blue! As his source in Russia he mentioned certain Alex Andreev.
He (Sundin) actually went to Moscow in late 90-ies.
Maybe this gentleman (Andreev) was Hornat's source as well? Based on what I remember from then Czechoslovakia
I don't believe Hornat did a primary reseach.
When I asked Orlov he didn't really know too much about Hornat and his sources for that matter.
I guess we still have a lot to learn, yes?
Cheers,
Mario


Title: Re: search to find paint references for VVS colours 1941/43
Post by: KL on May 17, 2011, 06:30:09 AM
Hi Massimo,

Again about Pilawskii? sorry, but IMHO it?s an important/interesting subject, part of the story about VVS WWII colours.

Well, I wouldn't be fully negative. Being the first book is already something. The book has many informations, photos and templates. Many of them could be good.

I am not negative ? I am critical.  There is no new information there, you know well that all SAFF photos were already published.

Templates?  Pilawski didn?t include official 1941 black-green template in his book!!!!   Pilawskiii proclaims that 1943 NKAP templates have not been used!!!!  Instead he offers ?tiger stripes? ?W scheme? and ?loops? etc.

The problem with his work is his unreliability.

His book is unreliable because it's loaded with his guesses, misconceptions, mistakes and fantasies.

I am thinking that at least half of what is written is good.

I wouldn?t be so generous.  For me, that bad part is more important anyway ? you don?t buy fish or fruit that is half rotten.

Cheers,
KL


Title: Re: search to find paint references for VVS colours 1941/43
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 17, 2011, 07:29:11 AM
Hi Konstantin,
Quote
I am not negative ? I am critical.  There is no new information there, you know well that all SAFF photos were already published.

Templates?  Pilawski didn?t include official 1941 black-green template in his book!!!!   Pilawskiii proclaims that 1943 NKAP templates have not been used!!!!  Instead he offers ?tiger stripes? ?W scheme? and ?loops? etc.
Well'I'm doing the same attempt to obtain templates, and I'll certainly have a look to them, but with some criticism.
About I-16: he shows three templates. Each of them is based on a single photo, where the plane is visible from one side. So, thet can't be considered representative of other planes.
But when compared to the 1941 template, one can see that them all are variations of this scheme, adapted to the shorter fuselage in different ways. I think that I'll trace only a mean template aside these three or four photos, and will be useful to guess what is there on the unshown side.
Other photos show not any resemblance to the template. Unfortunately, photos of disruptive camouflages on I-16 are few. If anuone has other photos than those already shown on the 1941-43 repainted planes page, please let me know.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: search to find paint references for VVS colours 1941/43
Post by: John Thompson on May 17, 2011, 06:48:00 PM

Unfortunately, photos of disruptive camouflages on I-16 are few. If anuone has other photos than those already shown on the 1941-43 repainted planes page, please let me know.
Regards
Massimo


You're right about that! I went through all of the I-16 images I've saved from different places like ebay.de (almost 200 images, but including drawings and other things besides photos), and I could not find any new ones. The only other possibility would be to check avia-n-aero or other photo-sharing sites, I guess.

(Of course, now I want to stop everything else I'm doing and build a 1/72 I-16! ;) )

John


Title: Re: search to find paint references for VVS colours 1941/43
Post by: KL on May 18, 2011, 05:19:24 AM
I had to check what Pilawskii wrote about I-16 colours:

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Modeling%20Aircraft%20of%20the%20Sov%20VVS/SAFFCPg115.jpg)

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Modeling%20Aircraft%20of%20the%20Sov%20VVS/SAFFCPg116.jpg)

This is all totally and hopelessly WRONG!!!   This is not how I-16 camouflage developed!

Where are those 1936 I-16 type 5 painted in old ?protective? and old ?blue-gray????

Not a single I-16 was painted in overall AEh-9, simply because AE-9 was a metal paint.  Black engine cowlings were a characteristic of 1936 planes; not a single gray I-16 had a black nose.

Factory green (AEh-5 or AEh-15) didn?t exist, it?s Pilawskii?s fantasy!!!!

Pilawskii?s 1938 and 1939 planes have blue undersides, painted with AII blue that didn?t exist at that time!  Where are gray and silver undersides????

According to Pilawskii, disruptive black-green camouflage was factory applied from 1939!!!!!!!  Read Vahlamov and Orlov ? order to camouflage planes in black-green was issued on June 23 1941!!!!!!

Where are those 1940 I-16s Type 29 painted in May 1940 Green-Blue scheme????

I am thinking that at least half of what is written is good. The problem is which half.

Where is that good half???  All that I can see on those two pages is garbage. >:(

Cheers,
KL


Title: Re: search to find paint references for VVS colours 1941/43
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 18, 2011, 07:24:39 AM
Hi Konstantin,
the text is wrong, no doubt, and the three schemes could give the idea to be built on a wide documentation, while I'm convinced that each of them is based on a single photo of a single plane.
Again, the book has photos and drawings that could be useful, even if they have been already published on other books.
About buying half rotten fruit: it depends on what alternative is there. During the siege of Leningrad, half-rotten fruit would have been a luxury.
No doubt, something replacing this book with something better would be welcome, but it was a pity that this couldn't have been done in an evolutionary way because of the attitude of the author, because he had already in his hands the rights for photos and drawings that could have been utilized after corrections.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: search to find paint references for VVS colours 1941/43
Post by: KL on May 18, 2011, 06:25:59 PM
the text is wrong, no doubt,

... the three schemes ... I'm convinced that each of them is based on a single photo of a single plane.

... the book has photos and drawings that could be useful, even if they have been already published on other books.

What is the value of the book which has wrong text?  Someone who wants to learn about I-16 camouflage and buys this book - it's still available for some $40.00 - will be mislead with erroneous information.

$40.00 for book that has wrong text and photos that have already been published????  In my opinion it's a waste of money.

If text is wrong, if drawings are wrong and photos are already seen, what is Pilavskii's contribution to the better understanding of Soviet colours and camouflage?

Cheers,
KL


Title: Re: search to find paint references for VVS colours 1941/43
Post by: xan on May 18, 2011, 10:55:29 PM
Hey! I think we all agree about the Pilawskii's works, and we are speaking too much about him, don't you think ?
 ;)
Xan


Title: Re: search to find paint references for VVS colours 1941/43
Post by: mholly on May 19, 2011, 01:21:54 AM
Quote
we are speaking too much about him, don't you think ?
I beg to differ. He published 223 pages on the topic. As KL keeps saying there are so many "problems" in this quite a large body of work
that, missing a thorough analysis, it's important to continue to find and address them. Not only here but pass it onto the other members of the modeling community through other boards which, I have no doubt, each of us is visiting as well.
As I said more than once before EP's misunderstanding and misinterpretation of the CHRONOLOGY of VVS camo paint and systems is ABYSMAL!


Title: Re: search to find paint references for VVS colours 1941/43
Post by: KL on May 19, 2011, 08:11:40 AM
Hey! I think we all agree about the Pilawskii's works, and we are speaking too much about him, don't you think ?

I don't think so.  ;)

Didn't you ask about Green-Dark Green I-16s few weeks ago?????
 :D

Cheers,
KL


Title: Re: search to find paint references for VVS colours 1941/43
Post by: xan on May 19, 2011, 12:17:23 PM
of course , and I had the answer I wanted thanks to you and the other, it's great!
Xan