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Sovietwarplanes

Modeling Soviet Warplanes => Colors, schemes, & research => Topic started by: xan on May 18, 2011, 11:08:28 PM



Title: yellow bordered red stars
Post by: xan on May 18, 2011, 11:08:28 PM
Hi,

1)
what about the yellow bordered red stars.
when did they appears, where they in a specific front or in specific planes?


2)
in general, I'm very suspicius with the yellow colours in soviets plane (I'm talking about band, number etc, not about the stars...)
I find quit logical when I red somewhere the ack-ack was very nervous with yellow colour wich was associated with germans, finnish or Romanian planes...
I always suspect that VVS planes profiles with yellow colours are bad interpr?tation of B&W colours (well I know that I'm not totaly right)

Xan


Title: Re: yellow bordered red stars
Post by: learstang on May 19, 2011, 12:37:45 AM
I couldn't agree more with you Xan about the usage of yellow colours.  I've always been sceptical of its use by the VVS, for the reason you've given.  Yellow was the identifying colour of the Axis.  If I were a VVS pilot, and a plane with a yellow nose or propeller spinner flies in front of me, I'm going to fire first and ask questions later.  I've even seen a model of a MiG-3 or LaGG-3, I can't remember which, that featured a yellow nose.  Nonsense.  That aeroplane would've been asking to be shot down.  It could be that what has been interpreted as yellow outlines, bands, and numbers are actually silver, as I've read these colours may look similar in B&W photographs.  There seems to be some question over how much (if any), yellow was actually used.  I do remember reading, on this site I believe, where a veteran mentioned yellow being used on IL-2 spinners, but 60-plus year old memories are not to be completely trusted.  At any rate, it's an interesting question, and I'm glad you started a thread on it.  I'm sure Massimo can shed some more light on this question.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: yellow bordered red stars
Post by: mholly on May 19, 2011, 01:41:08 AM
Gentlemen,
Turn your attention to the documentary evidence. V-O clearly wrote that the only authorized colors for markings were RED, WHITE and SILVER. I believe this was established before the GPW therefore the possible mis-identification with enemy planes (due to yellow color application) is not really that relevant.
I would not exclude yellow for bort numbers or some other markings. It may have happened as an exception in the isolated cases which we can hardly track down through b&w pix "analysis". :)
As a red stars outline however it would be contrary to afore-mentioned orders and there is no physical evidence for it unlike for silver borders (P-39 in Finnland)! I stay firm that b&w pix are of any help (again) neither there are veteran's testimonials.
I have to admit though that it looks cool on scale models especially on "green/BROWN" fighter camo! :P
Cheers,
Mario


Title: Re: yellow bordered red stars
Post by: learstang on May 19, 2011, 01:51:58 AM
I agree with that, Mario.  There may have been isolated instances, but they were probably rare, and certainly not as widespread as profile after profile, decal sheet after decal sheet, and kit instruction sheet after kit instruction sheet would have you believe.  Actually, red stars with large yellow surrounds look great on tractor green painted aircraft!  The bright yellow is a great complement to the neon green.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: yellow bordered red stars
Post by: John Thompson on May 19, 2011, 03:19:16 AM
Gentlemen,
Turn your attention to the documentary evidence. V-O clearly wrote that the only authorized colors for markings were RED, WHITE and SILVER.

This information as quoted elsewhere by Kari Lumppio is the main reason the yellow ink on the new PrintScale La-5 decal sheet kind of sets my teeth on edge:
http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1069.msg6166#new

John


Title: Re: yellow bordered red stars
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 19, 2011, 07:23:04 AM
Quote
Gentlemen,
Turn your attention to the documentary evidence. V-O clearly wrote that the only authorized colors for markings were RED, WHITE and SILVER.

I think that there were exceptions, even if not too frequent. For example, the red 1 in the rudder of the MiG-3 of Veesiveehma depot is dark red with light blue-green outline. Veterans speak of yellow, maybe not on the spinner. And blue was utilized as an unit marker. Besides all fantasy painting as tigers, eagles and so on can't be done with the base colors only.
So, red, white and silver should be supposed where there is not a good reason to choose other paints.
Massimo


Title: Re: yellow bordered red stars
Post by: KL on May 19, 2011, 07:53:36 AM
1)
what about the yellow bordered red stars.
when did they appears, where they in a specific front or in specific planes?

They appeared after the war, west of the "Iron Curtain".  No specific planes - any soviet plane was good for yellow bordered red star!

(http://www.pyperpote.tonsite.biz/mae_retaille_grande/j_moulin_yak_3_18_1975_filtered.jpg)

(http://highroad.smugmug.com/Airplanes/Aircraft-I-Have-Met/Bell-P-39-Aircobra-camo/246505022_vH4k5-O-2.jpg)

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_VsPSgPTQicc/Scx6CVyYbmI/AAAAAAAACH4/hHPDfYbeD58/s1600/20.jpg)

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Misconceptions/Stormavik.jpg)

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Misconceptions/Airfix20D364F20DFDIL-2.jpg)

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Misconceptions/2799815109_94050b15a3.jpg)

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Misconceptions/Yak9.jpg)

(http://s.ecrater.com/stores/162989/4c0448c2bfcc6_162989b.jpg)

They all originate from here:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/72/Flag_of_the_Soviet_Union_%281955-1980%29.svg/600px-Flag_of_the_Soviet_Union_%281955-1980%29.svg.png)


Hope this helps,
KL





Title: Re: yellow bordered red stars
Post by: mholly on May 19, 2011, 01:50:55 PM
Hey Kosta,
What a nice collection of the kit box art! Do you actually have all of them?
Funny but that earliest Yak-9 issue (header bag) shows almost correct green/black camo, well EP's version!
Similar Il-2, called this time Stormavik!
Cheers,
Mario


Title: Re: yellow bordered red stars
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 19, 2011, 04:51:04 PM
Hi
from the great expert EP:
Quote
To do so, the Soviets began to paint in different colours spinners, cowlings, rudder direction, the upper part of keels (the so-called ?caps?), as well as paint stripes on the vertical tail, fuselage and the wings of the aircraft. Sometimes special emblems were used. All of these showed the machine belonged to a particular squadron, regiment or division. We used colours of red, white, blue and yellow colours, including those intended for painting of internal surfaces.
Quote
Often, for marking aircraft belonging to the squadron coloured spinners were used. Usually, the first squadron had a red spinner, the second - blue, the third - yellow.
:-[I missed, this is not EP... he's Orlov.
So, I don't know if there were really stars with yellow border, but the color was utilized in VVS anyway.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: yellow bordered red stars
Post by: xan on May 19, 2011, 06:43:08 PM
Oh, so the yellow question is not very clear yet...

Very nice collection Konstantin! the airfix are yours ?

but the yellow appears in modern models as the I-16 type 10 of Eduard:

(http://nsm05.casimages.com/img/2011/05/19//110519063548534318182823.jpg) (http://www.casimages.com)

to be honest they propose another version, who seems much realistic to me:

(http://nsm05.casimages.com/img/2011/05/19//110519063549534318182824.jpg) (http://www.casimages.com)

oh, did someone have any pic of this plane?

Xan


Title: Re: yellow bordered red stars
Post by: John Thompson on May 19, 2011, 09:54:20 PM
I'd like to see a photo, too - I just started converting an ICM 1/72 I-16 to a type 10. However, I think the underside colour on a type 10 would have been AII Gray/AE-9, would it not? The black may be a field application over the factory AII Z Green? A photo would certainly be helpful. I hope Kontantin or Massimo confirms these colours before you paint anything! ;)

John


Title: Re: yellow bordered red stars
Post by: KL on May 20, 2011, 03:54:39 AM
I guess it is a personal choice.
You either believe what Pilawskii wrote in his book (1939 factory applied black-green over AII Blue), or you believe what V&O wrote (AII Z and gray undersides, Black is field applied after June 1941).

It doesn't make sense to ask a question if you are confused; some may see discussion about colours as personal attack on Pilawskii's opus.

Cheers,
KL


Title: Re: yellow bordered red stars
Post by: xan on May 20, 2011, 07:25:49 AM
Hi, Konstantin,
this plane is a late decoration:
it's a training plane in a unknow unit in Leningrad area in 1944.
it could had be repeint between 1941 and 1943...

Xan


Title: Re: yellow bordered red stars
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 20, 2011, 08:46:05 AM
Hi,
I've found the photo on Squadron Signal n.162, Polikarpov fighters part 2, pag.29.
The tail number is not visible, but the text says that is red 4, so another photo should exist.
The caption describes a white-bordered star with a yellow band around the fuselage, but they looks identical to my eye, possibly silver.
The caption deduces the date, 1944, from the style of the star, and says that this was used as a liaison aircraft.
The camo isn't perfectly identical to the drawing of the kit.
The owner of the photo is Vaclav Simecek, maybe he knows more.
Have you this book?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: yellow bordered red stars
Post by: John Thompson on May 20, 2011, 05:32:27 PM

you believe what V&O wrote (AII Z and gray undersides, Black is field applied after June 1941).


Thanks, Konstantin - don't tell me I finally got one right! At last I'm learning something... ;)

Hi,
I've found the photo on Squadron Signal n.162, Polikarpov fighters part 2, pag.29.
The tail number is not visible, but the text says that is red 4, so another photo should exist.
The caption describes a white-bordered star with a yellow band around the fuselage, but they looks identical to my eye, possibly silver.
The caption deduces the date, 1944, from the style of the star, and says that this was used as a liaison aircraft.
The camo isn't perfectly identical to the drawing of the kit.
The owner of the photo is Vaclav Simecek, maybe he knows more.
Have you this book?
Regards
Massimo

One thing I've noticed about the Squadron "In Action" series is that they occasionally crop published photos rather poorly, even to the extent of removing details that are referred to in the photo caption. It's possible that there is only the one photo, and that the original actually shows the tail of the aircraft. Obviously only Vaclav Simecek can answer that question, unless the photo has been published uncropped somewhere else.

John


Title: Re: yellow bordered red stars
Post by: borisZG on May 20, 2011, 05:49:43 PM
Just had a look at the photo. "Yellow" band is (at least in my copy of Sqn/Sig) the same colour as the star border - i.e. white.

Sqn/Signal tends to have a problem with photo captions (and artwork) here and there...

In my humble opinion, no Soviet soldier or worker would dare to change national insignia colour, because he could all too easy get declared an enemy of the state (no kidding there, those of you who lived in Eastern Europe before eighties would know what I am referring to ...)



Title: Re: yellow bordered red stars
Post by: learstang on May 20, 2011, 07:27:24 PM
Just had a look at the photo. "Yellow" band is (at least in my copy of Sqn/Sig) the same colour as the star border - i.e. white.

Sqn/Signal tends to have a problem with photo captions (and artwork) here and there...

In my humble opinion, no Soviet soldier or worker would dare to change national insignia colour, because he could all too easy get declared an enemy of the state (no kidding there, those of you who lived in Eastern Europe before eighties would know what I am referring to ...)



Welcome to the site, Boris!  That's an interesting point about the insignia colour; I wonder if yellow could have been considered an "enemy" colour.  I'm only half-kidding about this.  At any rate, I definitely think a good-sized yellow fuselage band would have been extremely unlikely.

Regards,

Jason