Sovietwarplanes

General Category => Soviet Warplanes Site => Topic started by: Graham Boak on May 19, 2011, 05:28:30 PM



Title: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: Graham Boak on May 19, 2011, 05:28:30 PM
Would it be possible to set up a section dedicated to the errors in Pilawski's book?   Then whenever such a matter arose elsewhere on the board it could be dealt with briefly, by a simple reference to the appropriate posting within the section.  In the section, it would be required that all the comments would be supported by evidence, including sources.  They must be made dispassionately, without text in capitals or block letters or attempting character assassination.  Demands for burning EP at the stake as an unregenerate heretic would not be permitted.

Oh well, I suppose that's too much to ask for, it would spoil some people's fun.  Perhaps you could relax the conditions to permit such antics, provided they only took place within that section?

I do feel that continuous vituperative attacks on this book and its author sour my interest in returning to this site, as it did the previous one.  I doubt that I was alone in this, and suspect it had much to do with the collapse of the previous site.  I also feel that such continual bad-mannered attacks are counterproductive to the critics claimed intentions, but that's perhaps another matter..


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 19, 2011, 05:51:49 PM
To tell the truth, I also think that some attacks are exaggerate and counterproductive. We can post corrections in this topic, avoiding personal criticism to the author.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: KL on May 20, 2011, 03:39:00 AM
Lets face it:
?   Quality of Pilawskii?s ?research? is abysmal.  His books are loaded with his misconceptions, misinterpretations, errors and fantasies.
?   It was Pilawskii?s own choice to ignore Vahlamov?s and Orlov?s work.  Instead of using their work as a historical framework, Pilawskii tried to downgrade their work (NKVD conspiracy) and to rewrite the history.
?   Pilawskii has never accepted any critics or any dialog about his book.  Pilawski was rude and bad-mannered with many of those who wanted to help and to improve quality of his book.

Is this that uncomfortable truth, hard to accept?

It looks to me, that it?s OK to criticize models if they are inaccurate and it?s not OK to criticize book that doesn?t connect with the historical reality.
It?s OK to criticize Hasegawa, ICM etc. for their bad models and it?s not OK to criticize authors for their bad books.
It?s OK to warn modelers not to buy bad models and it?s not OK to warn modelers about bad/useless books.

I would really like to see what other forum members think about all this?
How do others see my posts:  as personal attacks on Pilawskii (burning EP at the stake) or criticism of what Pilawskii wrote in his book?
Was I rude or bad-mannered?
Has anybody found these posts interesting or useful?
Shall I continue or stop?????

Thanks,
KL



Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: learstang on May 20, 2011, 04:38:07 AM
Konstantin, the difference between criticising ICM and Hasegawa for inaccurate models is that these are companies, not people.  Erik Pilawskii is a person.  That difference in and of itself makes it "personal" when it comes to criticism.  The following phrase from you, "Pilawski was rude and bad-mannered" could certainly be considered a personal attack, justified though it may be.  I think what Massimo and Graham are talking about is let's tone down the language a little bit.  It's not that I think you're incorrect; quite the opposite - when I had accepted EP's research as accurate whilst I was first writing my book on the IL-2, you showed me that his research was inaccurate, and you came up with evidence to prove that.  That help (and Mario's help on the same) was invaluable and was and is greatly appreciated by me.

Perhaps one way to make it less personal is not to mention Erik Pilawskii so much by name, but simply to criticise his books, and to point out their inaccuracies.  However, your viewpoint may be that EP's research is so tainted, that people should be alerted to anything bearing his name.  Perhaps you're correct; however I do think that sometimes these discussions over VVS colours do take on the appearance of personal jihads against anyone who doesn't believe in the one, true faith.  In this case is seems that the "Albom Nakrasok" is treated like the Bible, and V&O are the true disciples.  I have to admit when I first got involved in the question of VVS colours, it seemed to me to be more like a (un)civil war than an intelligent and dispassionate discussion about verifiable facts.  I can see how people can be put off by the tone of such arguments.  Just my tuppence.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 20, 2011, 07:35:36 AM
Konstantin,
I fully agree with Jason, the attacks to EP and his book are exaggerate and can give the idea of something personal. Even to someone that was banned by him.
Of course, we all appreciate corrections and contributions with new documents, and agree that one has the right to write his own opinion... but this was repeated too many times in each occasion.
I think that the idea to enlist corrections and criticisms to this book is good, leaving the total attacks that have been repeated too many times.
Besides, I know that the resarches of Vaklamov, Orlov and Akanihin are much more reliable, but it's not good to citate them as bible and repeat always that all that is out of this is fruit of ignorance and misconception.
I don't think that those authors have the idea that their work is fully definitive, and many doubts are still open.
I suggest to improve the translation of the text of Orlov, it would be an useful way to employ time to advantage other modelers.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: mholly on May 20, 2011, 04:11:12 PM
Jason and Massimo,
I think you're over-reacting and trying to be "politically correct" where it is not necessary. I have not seen any "personal attacks" on Pilawskii here. Re-read the big "Albom Nakrasok debate" on his site, initiated by him, and you'll see, again, who was attacking who.
Since Pilawskii published a book (actually books) he's no longer a "private person" but a "public person" as any other author/writer out there, that includes Orlov too. How many times did you read/hear that "such and such book by XY is a crap" etc. etc. Does this constitute a personal attack? I don't think so. I for one take the liberty to continue criticizing him freely, as required by a situation, by name, here or elsewhere. It would be actually welcome had he responded to this criticism. He had the opportunities during the above mentioned "debate" (I was among the "challengers") but he decided not to react in any meaningful way, as expected (appropriate ?) from an "acclaimed researcher and author", as he identified himself.
You should also realize that necessity to talk about Pilawskii rose due to this board members' inquiries. These folks maybe new to the topic or returned to it after some time, revived the interest... like Xan, Apex, myself, and others.
Nobody is trying to be dogmatic about V-O work either. But until its correct and full English translation is fully accessible it's crucial V-O findings are being repeatedly quoted. And we should consider ourselves lucky to have the first-hand access to this information here thanks to some members competency in Russian language.
All that said I agree that critical overview of his book should be done and "pinned".
Cheers,
Mario


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: John Thompson on May 20, 2011, 04:26:44 PM
I held off responding to this thread because of a number of conflicts I have over this whole issue and the way it was brought out here; all that aside, the work of a few individuals (without naming anyone - you know who you are) has made this site and its forum a very valuable resource for those who have a genuine interest in the subject matter. I don't want to see that put at risk. By now, the possibility of error in Erik's book has been widely highlighted in this and other forums. At this point it would be most productive to concentrate on identifying and correcting those errors; I ask everyone please to give Massimo their continued support in making this ultimate resource for VVS modelbuilding and history enthusiasts.

John


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: learstang on May 20, 2011, 07:21:57 PM
Mario, the term "political correctness" has been so misused and abused that I don't even know what it means anymore.  All I'm saying is a little less vitriol against Mr. Pilawskii might go a long way.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: mholly on May 20, 2011, 09:09:32 PM
Hi Jason,
Quote
"political correctness" has been so misused and abused that I don't even know what it means anymore
I was reluctant to use it but in a hurry couldn't come up with other expression, sorry about that.
You understood however, I have no doubt.
Otherwise I fully agree with abuse etc., same as "democracy".
Quote
All I'm saying is a little less vitriol against Mr. Pilawskii might go a long way.
If formulated this way I agree again. Otherwise, like I said, I feel free to criticize his work on a factual and situational basis.
Cheers,
Mario




Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: learstang on May 21, 2011, 04:40:37 AM
Fair enough, Mario!

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: mbittner on May 22, 2011, 12:32:28 AM
Don't know why I'm finally responding, but have decided to.

It was all the vitriol that has put me off VVS modeling, probably for ever. One of the reasons I no longer have the will or desire to update "our" site.

Yes, Erik is a friend, although I also let our discussions cease as well. I'm tired - and too old - to let the negative-isms (from all sides) get to me like it used to. So, my choice is to ignore it all.

I may still build, from time-to-time, VVS 'tweeners, but anything else (well, maybe I-16s and Il-2s) I no longer have the desire to model.

I'll still follow discussions, both here and on our (dead) forum, but I will not participate any longer. I know most don't care, but just in case anybody was wondering why "our" site has not been updated as it used to, as well as why I'm not building any VVS.

Hopefully this won't generate too much of a flame war. If it does, my apologies to Massimo.

Be that as it may, though, I still have P&J's NV-1 to finish...  ;)


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: John Thompson on May 22, 2011, 02:19:19 AM
Hey Matt - good to see you! I still owe you an e-mail - I haven't forgotten! ;)

John


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 22, 2011, 07:37:20 AM
Hi Matt,
I see. I imagined that it was in this way.
I agree that all this vitriol is out of place: painting of planes should be an emotively flat argument.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: KL on May 22, 2011, 08:05:09 AM
Regarding the few answers I got:

Jason, thanks for the advice.  Appreciated!!!  "Tainted research" I will remeber that one!

Mario and John, thanks for the support, direct or indirect.

... continuous vituperative attacks on this book and its author...  I also feel that such continual bad-mannered attacks are counterproductive...

I agree that all this vitriol is out of place: painting of planes should be an emotively flat argument.

An example for vitriol and bad mannered attacks (Pilawskii's own words in the "GOSKHIMIZDAT's 1948 Catalogue Examined", aka the Public Debate):

... a Russian poster claimed this was an historical record of VVS lacquers! The mind reels at such stupidity.

source:  http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Research/1948/1948_Albom_Nakrasok.html

Graham, Jason, Massimo could you please comment this?

Thanks,
KL
 


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 22, 2011, 12:03:43 PM
Quote
An example for vitriol and bad mannered attacks (Pilawskii's own words in the "GOSKHIMIZDAT's 1948 Catalogue Examined", aka the Public Debate):

... a Russian poster claimed this was an historical record of VVS lacquers! The mind reels at such stupidity.

source:  http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Research/1948/1948_Albom_Nakrasok.html

Graham, Jason, Massimo could you please comment this?

Hi Konstantin,
I made seven or eight posts of comment to that text of EP on Arcforum.  I could have added something more then, but it looks unuseful to do this now, after more than a year.
However, by that text EP caused great discredit to himself and the end of his fame of expert. Why should we do the same thing now?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: KL on May 22, 2011, 06:05:47 PM
Massimo, I agree with you:

No need for ?kicking a dead horse?.

Same, there is absolutely no need to defend ?Soviet Air Force Fighter Colours? and its author.

KL


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: mholly on May 22, 2011, 09:47:51 PM
Massimo, Konstantin:
Quote
However, by that text EP caused great discredit to himself and the end of his fame of expert.
Absolutely, but we also need to tell that to the people who are new to the topic or were not following "debates with EP".
Only yesterday somebody on Hyperscale posted a link to this website, namely table of colors, so happy with this "discovery" and "new thing", calling however VVS coloration a "snake pit".
Quote
there is absolutely no need to defend ?Soviet Air Force Fighter Colours? and its author
Right on the money, he had plenty of opportunities to do so, was personally challenged (some people will continue saying "attacked") by you, myself, Massimo...
Let's move forward, still many things to do.
Cheers,
Mario


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: JP on May 24, 2011, 08:50:56 PM
Well, here's my 2 pesos.  What I do NOT see here is a one-sided Pilawski bash-fest.  What I do see in this thread is a healthy discussion on a subject/person who elicits strong emotions from people, whether we like that or not.  I further see reasonable people who I'm sure can come to an agreement on how to treat this hot topic like mature adults and move forward.

The original intent when this site/forum was created was to have an atmosphere of complete academic freedom.  Not a personal fiefdom where a certain point of view would be protected against competing notions.  This was the idea that originally brought Massimo and I together.    In order to find truth, you must always be prepared for the eventuality that what you think now may later be proved wrong.  It can't be a personal thing, or you are already in the wrong.

I think it helps to keep in mind some perspective - at the end of the day, this is all basically over little plastic airplanes and some source material, and the majority of the people we know in life think we're giant nerds for even concerning ourselves with such things.  In fact, I am actually in the Air Force of my country, and no one I know could tell a P-40 from a Yak.   ;)

Any truly constructive comment is welcome here.  I think we can do that without bringing personal issues into our common interest in Soviet warplanes.  Truth comes from people questioning assumptions and reasoning.  (Also consider that much of what we discuss will probably never be definitively answered.)  In short, you must argue like Germans - as passionately as if you were about to fight over it, but at the end still clear headed enough to go share a beer afterward.   ;D


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: KL on May 24, 2011, 10:57:21 PM
Let me start with something constructive, something that is relevant and probably unknown to the most of those who are following this dispute ? what Russian experts see as SAFFC?s major problems:

Problem No 1:
Those who are familiar with the subject are saying that SAFFC creates a picture of totally unregulated field:  NKAP (ministry of Aviation Production) issued only ?recommendations?, factories could create there own schemes or use paints they just ?prefer?.  Workers could paint planes how they wanted and with anything that was handy.  Girls could invent their own camouflage schemes, factories competed to create more colorful schemes.  Camouflage schemes and even the type of national markings were just more ?popular? at certain times ? something like wartime fashion.

Those same people, who are familiar with the subject, are saying that the camouflage and the colouring were regulated.  NKAP and VVS High Command issued directives and orders that were mandatory.  Planes were accepted by military commissions and those did pay attention how planes were painted.  Paint production was standardized and their use was clearly defined in technical documentation.

Problem No 2:
Russian researchers who worked in archives have many doubts about author?s work in those archives.  For example, some of the documents listed in ?Soviet Air Force Fighter Colours? simply don?t exist.


So, the dispute is not really about the shade of any particular colour (how acidic is Aii Green or how dark is AKAN?s AMT-11).  It?s about more fundamental things - the treatment of official documents and the real sources.

?Albom Nakrasok? is pretty much irrelevant for this case!

Hope this helps,
KL


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: learstang on May 25, 2011, 01:13:50 AM
Konstantin, I think that states things pretty well.  And JP, when I first came on this site, I was wrong about many things regarding VVS colours, but thanks to members such as Konstantin and Mario, I was put on the straight and narrow.  And now I know everything there is to know about VVS colours and paint schemes. ;)

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: mholly on May 25, 2011, 09:10:07 AM
One brilliant summary Kosta, superb, thanks a lot!
Mario


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: KL on May 27, 2011, 07:37:08 PM
Regardless of what SAFFC?s author and the publisher say about the work in archives, VVS camouflage schemes are based on b/w photo analysis.  SAFFC?s author describes his research in the ?Anatomy of the Colo(u)r? text posted on his web site:

?In my own research on VVS subjects, I rely mainly on the photographic evidence that I have collected over the years. In my case, I keep a notebook (well, many, as a matter of fact) of all of the photographs that I have ever seen in any collection; I have done this faithfully since 1987. For each photograph I make a description using a notation system of my own invention to describe the subject(s) of the photo. The collection, reference number, negative information, caption information, and date are all recorded, if available. In many cases, a small sketch accompanies the description in the margin. The grand total over the years has come to many thousands of Notebook entries, needless to say, but certainly not all of these are unique examples; many photographs, or copies thereof, are to be found throughout a number of collections.?

Source at:  http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Markings/Yak7_White03/index.php

In SAFFC author mentions some 17,000 photos.  From photo captions it is clear that he had heavily relied on G. Petrov?s collection.  Photos from Monino, CDAK and popular literature are also mentioned both in SAFFC and on his web-site.

Author tried to identify different camouflage schemes, to sort them, to date them and even to assign them to different factories.  This type of effort would have been justified in 1980es when information about VVS colouring was scarce.  If  SAFFC was published 10 years earlier, in 1993, it would have been a valuable contribution to the understanding of VVS colouring.

But, it just happened that Russian researchers V. Vahlamov and M. Orlov had published a series of texts about VVS camouflage and colours in late 1990es. Those authors relied on documents in their research.  Their research outlines the history and chronology of camouflage in Soviet Union for the first time.

Research presented in SAFFC was outdated and redundant when published in 2003.   My two pesos!  :D

KL


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 27, 2011, 09:06:54 PM
Hi Konstantin
the work of EP has many limits in its reliability, but the basic idea of obtaining conclusions from photos, at least on templates, isn't bad, any source should be utilized and compared.
My doubts is on if/how it was done. First, 17000 photos is an enormous amount, scarcely credible.
Second, he wrote to have not the photos under his eyes when he traced sketches and obtained conclusions, and this makes the work weak.
The fact that Vaklamov and Orlov published important articles in Russian some years before doesn't delete the utility of a book in English where a lot of photos, profiles, templates and descriptions of colors are collected in two hundred pages.
What ruins the value of this book is that, when one goes to the sources to check a drawing or a description, too often he has to discover that it's in some way wrong, and the attitude of the author is not to discuss and correct it.
There is still a lot of work to do to clarify painting and templates of Soviet planes, and we can't avoid to use photos for this.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: KL on May 27, 2011, 11:35:44 PM
... but the basic idea of obtaining conclusions from photos, at least on templates, isn't bad....

Schemes presented in "Soviet Air Force Fighter Colours" are supposed to represent standard factory templates.  They are bad because:

-  in many cases represent scheme that is applicable to a single plane (or single photograph) - only something used on many planes can be called a "template"
-  in many cases represent a field applied camouflage, not a factory scheme

when you trace a template from a single photograph, how do you know how many other planes were camouflaged the same way?  That plane could be unique.

Pilawskii's last two books, I-16 and Mig-3, are much better:  color profiles represent individual (particualar) planes with all their individual markings etc.

In my opinion, official template is only that crude black-and-white drawing that accompnied the order.  everything else that we see on photos are interpretations of that template or its modifications, in factories , in units etc.

Regards,
KL


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: mholly on May 28, 2011, 12:52:34 AM
Quote
basic idea of obtaining conclusions from photos, at least on templates, isn't bad
Agreed BUT he did make wrong conclusions-loop patterns, Bukhanova's schemes, zavod this zavod that patterns...
B&w pictures analysis does have its validity but only as a supplement to the primary research which is working with period documents and extant relics.
This is not just my personal opinion. There are other aviation color researchers out there, such as Dana Bell, Nick Millman, Jim Maas..., who will confirm that.
Cheers,
Mario


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 28, 2011, 01:40:31 PM
Hi Konstantin and Mario,
many types of planes show repetitive schemes that are similar to the 1941 nkap template, but not identical.
The most of black-green Pe-2 are painted according to one scheme, and the most of LaGG-3 and La-5 are well standardized. For what I have seen on a fair number of photos, all Il-4 have variations of two base templates. A photo of a Il-2 factory shows dozens of Il-2 painted in the same way. So, nearly all Li-2 are painted according to variations of one or two templates.
I don't know if the difference is due to the factory, or what else.
Other types are refractary to schematism: I haven't seen two Su-2 identical one another.
About loops, I have found photos of a Yak-9 with a loop on the left wing; at present I am not able to say how representative is it, but I have seen photos of lines of Yaks identical each other, so it's fully possible that the plane was representative of its batch.
So at present time I am not able to say if the templates of EP are right or wrong, even if I am working hard on photos.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: dragonlanceHR on May 28, 2011, 05:32:25 PM
My two cents...

Can we form a club of folks threatened wit libel case by EP?

I treasure his (long deleted, but saved on my HDD) ARC post calling me some not-so nice names and threats... and yet I (and others) am the one accused of "vitriolic personal attacks".

Can't we just ignore the aforementioned person? My heart bleeds when I see a two-tone poison green MiG (recently on HS forum), but I can live with it.

We have this forum, Massimo has an ever-improving website, so let's leave EP to history.

Vedran




Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: KL on May 30, 2011, 07:05:05 PM
Hi Vedran,  :)
Good to see you again!


Can we form a club of folks threatened wit libel case by EP?

This is going to be and international club!
Some of those who were attacked by Erik Pilawskii include:

Russia:  MN and YeV
Finland: KL
(this is about the use of silver paint in VVS and ?Finnish Conspyracy?)
Serbia:  SB
Croatia:  VK
Italy:  MT


Initials used to protect victims privacy and integrity!

I treasure his (long deleted, but saved on my HDD) ARC post calling me some not-so nice names and threats..

Why don?t you post here some of Pilawskii?s attacks? just for the reference? for those who are trying to protect aforementioned person?

Cheers,  8)
KL (not related to the ?Finnish Conspiracy?)


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: michman on May 31, 2011, 02:41:46 AM
Dear Colleagues,

I am a new member. So, perhaps I missed some new development.
Are you making reference to this book of 2004 year by E. Pilawskii?
http://www.amazon.com/Soviet-Fighter-Colours-1941-45-Classic/dp/190322330X

If we speak of a work authored by a foreigner, and almost 10 years ago .... well .... what would an American expect of "USAAC Colors of World War Two" authored by a Ivan Ivanovich Ivanov, "famous aviation researcher of Pskov", or some such, based on some tourism in the USA?
In my personal opinion, we might very happily ignore such a work.

One must say that if an author does not have Russian, and does not constantly participate in the Russian aviation research world (to communicate with archive researchers, aircraft restorers and collectors, scalemodels.ru, MHobby publications, etc., etc.), it is assured that many errors will be made.

But if these errors have been recently repeated, I would be very surprised - even with E. Pilawskii. So, has there been some new, addtional or more recent "update" that still maintains the problems of the original?

Thank you for any clarification.


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: JP on May 31, 2011, 03:48:23 AM
I think the main issue of contention stems from the author's choice of how to respond to honest and well-meaning inquiring and questions relating to his work. 


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: learstang on May 31, 2011, 04:36:32 AM
I think the main issue of contention stems from the author's choice of how to respond to honest and well-meaning inquiring and questions relating to his work. 

I agree that that's a big part of it, JP.  When I sent some work I had done on a book on the IL-2 (still in progress, although largely completed by now) to Mario Holly, he basically marked through everything I had done on the colours.  I have to admit that I wasn't particularly thrilled by this, but I soon realised that Mario was correct, his criticisms were well-merited, and I made the appropriate changes.  I think that's how such challenges to one's work should be handled - if the critic proves to be correct, change your work and appreciate their help in making your work more accurate.

In response to your post michman, errors in VVS colours still occur today.  In a small book on the IL-2 published in Russia this year, there are profiles of the IL-2 with the entirely fictitious brown/green topsides scheme.  How much Mr. Pilawskii's work contributes to this continuing and unnecessary "confusion" over VVS colours is hard to determine, but having erroneous works in English certainly doesn't help things in the West (nor in the East, also).  I also saw the fictitious brown/green scheme appear in Flypast magazine, a British publication, in an issue that was published a few months ago.  These problems are ongoing.

Regards,

Jason
 


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: michman on May 31, 2011, 05:25:56 AM
Thank you both very much for your responses.

Dear Jason,

I look forward very much to your upcoming book on Il-2!
:)

You are a native English speaker, yes? - so for your book, you will publish in English?
If yes, it will be a great new item and I am sure a great success.

I think your research and your writing is much more interesting than old stories about Aviation Tractor Green, if this may be said without giving any offense to any other colleague.


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: learstang on May 31, 2011, 07:33:12 AM
Thank you both very much for your responses.

Dear Jason,

I look forward very much to your upcoming book on Il-2!
:)

You are a native English speaker, yes? - so for your book, you will publish in English?
If yes, it will be a great new item and I am sure a great success.

I think your research and your writing is much more interesting than old stories about Aviation Tractor Green, if this may be said without giving any offense to any other colleague.

Yes I am a native English speaker, michman.  I do hope it will be a great success (even a moderate success would be fine), and I'll set aside a copy for you (at a reduced price, of course ;)).  The book will cover mostly the modelling side of the IL-2, of which I am quite knowledgeable having seen nearly every Shturmovik kit from the last 50 years (and having built to date quite a few of them - ten to be exact), but I will also cover some of the historical aspects, and the colour section will be as accurate as I can make it.  No tractor green here, except to dispel the myth.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: KL on May 31, 2011, 07:02:15 PM
Hi Michman, :)

One must say that if an author does not have Russian, ...

Yes, Pilawskii is a westerner and he can?t understand Russian.

But those shouldn?t be issues!  There are western authors whose books about Soviet aviation history were well received in Russia even by experts.  For example:  new book about Aeroflot by Lennart Andersson is the best reference available in any language.  C-F Geust is an authority on Winter War and WWII Soviet aviation in general.

Language normally should not be a significant limitation:  there are translators and many Russians do speak some English.  It?s more about connecting with Russians and willingness to listen.  Steven Zaloga was mentioned on Russian forums as an example for a western author who started with many misconceptions but was willing to assimilate new information and correct his works.

It is all explained at http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_6209.html

HTH!

Cheers, ::)
KL




Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: mholly on May 31, 2011, 11:18:37 PM
Quote
But those shouldn?t be issues!
Agreed! And you listed great examples. Especially "Zaloga's story" is the one to follow.
Problem (again) with EP is that he claimed Russian language proficiency! Indirectly though (he's smart after all), thru Matt Bittner on VVS site.
Cheers,
Mario


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: mbittner on June 03, 2011, 02:55:58 AM
Quote
But those shouldn?t be issues!
Agreed! And you listed great examples. Especially "Zaloga's story" is the one to follow.
Problem (again) with EP is that he claimed Russian language proficiency! Indirectly though (he's smart after all), thru Matt Bittner on VVS site.
Cheers,
Mario

Huh? Thru me on the VVS site? I don't understand.


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: mholly on June 03, 2011, 04:06:46 AM
Quote
Huh? Thru me on the VVS site? I don't understand.
Yes. Back then on VVS site I posted that I very seriously doubted EP's Russian language proficiency. It was meant as
a direct challenge anticipating his personal response. Then you posted reacting to this particular notion of mine, literally:
"Erik is fluent in Russian"...
Mario


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: mbittner on June 07, 2011, 01:45:31 PM
Ah, I see.


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: KL on August 31, 2011, 11:26:47 PM
Pilawskii's legacy  

Let's start with made-up colours:

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Modeling%20Aircraft%20of%20the%20Sov%20VVS/Digital_color_chips_Feb08-Fictional.jpg)

either colours or colours and names are made-up (invented, fabricated) by Pilawskii!!!  These colours are absent in period technical literature.


In his book and on his websites, Pilawskii also refferes to paints that were in use in Soviet Aviation.: AII nitro laquers, AEh enamels etc.  But, in most cases colours proposed by Pilawskii are way off (wrong, missed).  We can only guess why; one possibility is that Pilawskii actually misidentified some of those with colours he saw in Monino.

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Modeling%20Aircraft%20of%20the%20Sov%20VVS/Digital_color_chips_Feb08-Misidentified.jpg)

AII Green is probably mixed-up with faded weatehered Army Olive Green (4BO)
AII Green (new) and AII Green (old) are pure guesswork
ALG-5 is probably mixed-up with modern interior light blue or aged A-14
AII Blue should be light blue, lighter than AMT-7
AMT-7 is "Deep sky Blue", darker than AII Blue
AE-8 is silver, not gray!
3B should be significantly darker than 4BO (or AMT-4 here)
 

What is left is pathetic - blacks, grays and white.  Not bad for b/w photo interpretation  ;D:

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Modeling%20Aircraft%20of%20the%20Sov%20VVS/Digital_color_chips_Feb08-Remainder.jpg)

Comments please???
KL


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: learstang on September 01, 2011, 01:36:53 AM
Once again, Konstantin, I think you've nailed it.  The sad thing of course is that Mr. Pilawskii has not learned anything (or not much, at any rate) and still continues to ply his questionable trade on his new website.  It still mystifies me why people just can't accept it when they are clearly, demonstrably wrong.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: JP on September 01, 2011, 05:17:21 AM
It still mystifies me why people just can't accept it when they are clearly, demonstrably wrong.

For that, you need to delve into psychology.  And that is best left for another website/forum.

Коля, that is a very good summary graphic on that subject.  Not to be lazy, but do we have such a handy chart featuring a summary on the current state of thought we can debate?   ;)


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: Troy Smith on September 01, 2011, 06:13:03 AM
Once again, Konstantin, I think you've nailed it.  The sad thing of course is that Mr. Pilawskii has not learned anything (or not much, at any rate) and still continues to ply his questionable trade on his new website.  It still mystifies me why people just can't accept it when they are clearly, demonstrably wrong.

Regards,

Jason
Jason

It's a very good question, i'd be fascinated to meet EP and have a talk, but this from below perhaps gets to the basic problem is EP aims primarily to impress and persuade his audience, and in general is unconcerned with the truth or falsehood of his statements.   

I spent quite some time carefully writing a bit on this in this thread, http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1099.msg6694#msg6694

But the main point was this -

This I ran  across in a book "Bad Science" , which is a serious book,  but I think this sums it all up rather well.

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Bullshit

Quote
On Bullshit is an essay by philosopher Harry Frankfurt. Originally published in the journal Raritan in 1986, the essay was republished as a separate volume in 2005 and became a nonfiction bestseller, spending twenty-seven weeks on the New York Times Best Seller list.[1]

In the essay, Frankfurt defines a theory of bullshit, defining the concept and analyzing its applications.

Both lies and bullshit can either be true or false but bullshitters aim primarily to impress and persuade their audiences, and in general are unconcerned with the truth or falsehood of their statements (it is because of this that Frankfurt concedes that "the bullshitter is faking things", but that "this does not necessarily mean he gets them wrong").

While liars need to know the truth to better conceal it, bullshitters, interested solely in advancing their own agendas, have no use for the truth.
 
Thus, Frankfurt claims, "...bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are" (Frankfurt 61).

my added emphasis.  I didn't write this but I'm sorry to say it seems to sum up EP.
The guy claims to be a serious researcher but spits his dummy out when proved wrong, and even now is still saying the same false schemes and colours as a look at his new site shows, as you noted, still the green/brown Il-2's....  Would it be too provocative to have a "whats wrong with the new site" thread as well?

But as JP more tactfully put it, the psychology is for another site....


T


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on September 01, 2011, 09:38:35 AM
Hi all,
at the end of this page it's reported something on a color found on a wreck comparable to factory green.
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/1941-43rep/1941-43repainted.html (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/1941-43rep/1941-43repainted.html)
Its origins and use are unclear.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: KL on September 01, 2011, 09:13:49 PM
Hi Troy,
your posts re Pilawskii at Britmodeller forums are really great!   :D

Quote
regardings the 1948 paint catalog (Pilawskii's Public Debate). It also is an excellent example of his writing 'style' which I personally find very tiresome to read.
shades of Sir Humphrey... see the first paragraph here to see what i mean
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humphrey_Appleby
Quote
You can find scans of SAAFFC online if you look, (or order inter library loan) but for the ?25+ it sells for it's essentially useless  UNLESS you already know about the subject, and even then it's just a collection of photos with some useful and some wrong information written in a turgid writing style.

Thanks for the H. Frankfurt's theories.  Pilawskii perfectly fits there.   ;)

Cheers,
KL


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: KL on September 21, 2011, 04:51:05 AM
thanks to Pilawskii's fans, we can see (and save for posterity) old pages from Pilawskii's web site.  Looks we can go way back in 2003!
Copy and paste into your browser entire link:
http://wayback.archive.org/web/20070801000000*/http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/

I found page "VVS colors" extremely entertaining; it's link is located in the lower left corner of the home page.  Check it out and you will find all possible combinations of green, dark green, brown and ochre, how author deciphers colours from B/W photos, the "standard old Dark Green over Green" scheme, and much, much more!!!   ;D  


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: JP on September 21, 2011, 05:37:13 AM
Oh boy, a greatest hits!


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on September 21, 2011, 07:36:38 AM
Again wayback links doesnt function with me. However, I think to have all on my hd.
It would be interesting to find some topics of his old forum.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: John Thompson on September 21, 2011, 02:34:53 PM
Again wayback links doesnt function with me. However, I think to have all on my hd.
It would be interesting to find some topics of his old forum.
Regards
Massimo

How about this, from 2010:
http://web.archive.org/web/20101026212928/http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Forum/index.php

Here's an older version, archived from 2006:
http://web.archive.org/web/20061101033202/http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Forum/index.php

The Wayback Machine site shows numerous "crawl dates" (a total of 76, going back to October 2005) over a period of several years, including prior to the crash that wiped out a lot of content, I think, although I don't remember specifically when that occurred.

I don't pretend to be an expert by any means, but once you experiment with the "Wayback Machine" a bit, it becomes fairly easy. That was how I recovered those Brushfire Wars early I-16 documents that I posted in another thread.

John


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: Dark Green Man on September 21, 2011, 10:56:06 PM
John,
Thank You for the trip down memory lane.
sadly, most of the stuff I was looking for seems to be in the missing gap between 2006 and 2010.
 :(


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on September 22, 2011, 08:24:58 PM
Hi John,
I've surfed in the files that have been preserved. Unfortunately there is not so much. I've found that (the first page only) where EP 'answers' to Michael XIII about grays... a thing to forget!
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: JP on September 23, 2011, 03:44:19 AM
You mean this fine example?

http://web.archive.org/web/20070527130157/http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Forum/showthread.php?tid=396



Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: learstang on September 23, 2011, 05:56:31 AM
Great Bog in Heaven!  What a total doorak, eedeeaht, klugscheisser, bendejo, drongo, putz, etc.!  This man considers himself an historian?!  More like the High Priest of the Erik Pilawskii religion!  I know you don't like things to get too personal, Massimo, but I didn't realise what a total condescending and arrogant person Mr. Pilawaskii was.  I sent him a few questions about colours recently, and although his response was somewhat condescending (basically like "poor amateur, what do you know about colours, I've been researching colours for 86 years," and so on), still it's nothing like the tongue-lashing he gave to poor Michael Neradkov.  What does Michael XIII know about Soviet colours, I mean does the man even understand Russian as well as EP?

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: KL on September 23, 2011, 06:30:07 AM
Quote
Quote
RE: AMT-11 and 12 question
Michael_XIII Wrote:

I tired to say - Eric's color shadows not fully correct.
Krofire, you has a very nice yak, but you AMT-12 color has too green shadows that real
Use as reference http://plasticmodel.ru/?page=paints&fact...mel&lang=e

EP "the Administrator" Wrote:

Well, by all means any specific colour interpretation is open to considered debate and discussion. This is of course how the science on these topics progresses. But, this kind of posting is is so utterly pathetic that I just cannot find the words for it....

Mikhail13, IF you--or this model paint company (Akan)-- had ever undertaken any research of any kind, you would have discovered already that the paint on the museum exhibits which you/they hold with such unqualified esteem are not aviation lacquers, let alone are they examples of authentic AMT finish. Their appearance is therefore meaningless in the extreme. Furthermore, had you/they performed any kind of analysis, you would have noticed that the traditional (at least up to 2005) finish on Monino's "La-7" exhibit is (or was) indeed authentic AMT-12, provable by both chemical and spectrographic examination. You might also find the dried up tin of AMT-12 which was used to paint it if you searched around; 15 years ago it was in a box just behind the Sopwith Triplane.

I would be delighted to hear your or their analytical test results on this, or upon any other authentic sample of AMT-12 lacquer. Should you ever perform such research, I would be happy to add these results to my own body of work, supplementing the 20+ samples of this lacquer which I have now. I am quite certain, however, that were you/they ever to examine an authentic specimen of AMT-12 that you would be perfectly satisfied with the general value of the chip which I have suggested.

In the meantime, we would all appreciate it greatly if you would not insult our collective intelligence by declaring the Truth of the Universe to us by virtue of the occasional museum visits of a model paint manufacturer. Quite frankly, you are simply making a complete fool of yourself by so doing, and your tone is unpalatable and condecending. Expressing your opinion is perfectly fine; dictating "reality" to the Forum is not.

Just in closing, I would like to respond to the many dozens of messages and e-mails I have received of late asking why I do not participate more actively on this Forum. I will simply hold up this thread as yet another shining example of why I do not. So long as this type of behaviour is deemed to be acceptable, then my active participation is neither required nor appropriate.

Erik

I bought Erik?s book in 2004 (wasted US$50.00, at that time over Can$70.00) because I wanted to learn about Soviet colours.  I started reading it, but after first 30-40 pages I felt confused/fed-up and left the book for later.

After reading this post, I knew that ?the author? was wrong.

Ridiculous:
Colours you saw in Monino are not authentic, they are meaningless.  Only the colours I saw in 1996 are authentic.  They even left a tin of dried paint for me there?  When??? ? in 1995??? or somebody forgot a tin in 1945??? Spec for Erik???    :-X


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: mholly on September 23, 2011, 07:34:59 PM
..."20+ samples of this lacquer which I have now."
NEVER showed them to us though, or did he? I think he's actually former KGB member, commissioned with a secret mission to confuse the
world in VVS paints matters. I'm afraid he has succeeded!
Seriously, do anybody find it logical that RUSSIAN researchers such as V&O, having done research IN RUSSIA, would not come across to a SINGLE AUTHENTIC sample? How could they miss that can of paint behind Sopwith Triplane?
Cheers,
Mario


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: KL on September 24, 2011, 06:39:35 AM
Correction!
2007 ? 15 = 1992

it is quite posible that Erik von M?nchhausen-Pilawskii actually did visit Monino museum in 1992.

Returning home, M?nchhausen supposedly told a number of outrageously farfetched stories about his adventures.
He acquired a reputation for his witty and exaggerated tales; at the same time, he was considered an honest man in business affairs.

The stories about Pilawskii were first published on the Internet as ?Modeling the Aircraft of the Soviet VVS 1930-50?

An English version was published in 2004, by Classic Publications, as Baron Munchhausen's Narrative of his Marvellous Travels and Campaigns in Russia

Baron Munchhausen's adventures have also been published in Russia, where they are quite commonly known, especially the versions adapted for children.

Adapted from Wikipedia:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baron_M%C3%BCnchhausen


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: bbrought on September 24, 2011, 11:09:29 AM
Seriously, do anybody find it logical that RUSSIAN researchers such as V&O, having done research IN RUSSIA, would not come across to a SINGLE AUTHENTIC sample? How could they miss that can of paint behind Sopwith Triplane?

Isn't it obvious? EP now has all the samples in existence in his garage, along with the Krakow museum Yak-3.


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: Javier Planells on October 29, 2011, 07:12:52 PM
Hi guys,

After 4 pages of a thorough flaming Marcus Tullius Cicero Modelator, I mean EP, can we have an amendment at EP's work? I'd really need it for some VVS planes I want to finish, and the thought of repainting the whole interior of my almost finished Yak-7b gives me the shivers.

I personally do not care about who was rough on who for the first time, personal vendettas or payback times for EP, just be careful no to end up looking like the subject you?re demolishing.

You're the knowledgeable guys in the forum, not me, so can we move on to the only matter for this post, giving clear directions (or as much as posible) for such a fascinating subject as VVS colors?

Thanks, have a nice weekend.

Javier


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: learstang on October 29, 2011, 07:34:33 PM
Mr. Planells, do you have a specific question on VVS colours that we might be able to help you on?  Am I correct in thinking you have a question about the interior colour of the Yak-7B? 

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: Javier Planells on October 29, 2011, 08:42:29 PM
Mr. Planells, do you have a specific question on VVS colours that we might be able to help you on?  Am I correct in thinking you have a question about the interior colour of the Yak-7B? 

Regards,

Jason

Hi Jason,

The matter on the Yak cockpit color,  I will post it on the proper modeling thread later on. I was just being descriptive about how a modeler feels when he faces such things as painting again a cockpit or having to re-do a color scheme. And how tiresome it is to read endless pages of flak, that is subsidiary to the very question that started the thread. And is, months later, still without an answer.

Thanks!

Javier


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: John Thompson on October 29, 2011, 08:44:22 PM
I'd really need it for some VVS planes I want to finish, and the thought of repainting the whole interior of my almost finished Yak-7b gives me the shivers.


I'd go with A-14 myself...

John


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: Javier Planells on October 29, 2011, 08:55:09 PM
I'd really need it for some VVS planes I want to finish, and the thought of repainting the whole interior of my almost finished Yak-7b gives me the shivers.


I'd go with A-14 myself...

John

Hi John,

Thanks for the reply. I believe you're right. Found the following thread to be very useful:

http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1171.0

Thanks again.

Javier


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: learstang on October 29, 2011, 10:28:06 PM
I agree with John, Javier.  A-14 Steel Grey (or MM Neutral Gray as I use) is probably the safest colour to use.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: Javier Planells on October 29, 2011, 10:41:23 PM
I agree with John, Javier.  A-14 Steel Grey (or MM Neutral Gray as I use) is probably the safest colour to use.

Regards,

Jason

Thanks Jason, I will go for that color.


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: John Thompson on October 30, 2011, 01:32:37 AM
A-14 is kind of the all-singing, all-dancing colour of last resort whenever you need to paint a cockpit or structural parts, and can't find conclusive information that it was something else. It was standardized for those purposes by the time the Yak-7 entered service, though. For earlier types, like the I-16, it's not so clear-cut.

John


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: learstang on October 30, 2011, 04:17:43 AM
You're welcome, Javier!  Once again John is correct - the A-14 is kind of a colour of last resort if you can't be sure of what other colours might have been used (or the colour of first resort for lazy types like me).

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: KL on January 18, 2012, 10:34:25 PM
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/ARC%20forum/SouthFrontSchemeSAFFCpg186.jpg)

Quote:
Several entire series of Yak-9s were completed at Zavoda 153 and 166 for use in the South (in one case, to replace the losses of the 252 IAP in 1944).


252 iap chronology can be found at http://allaces.ru/cgi-bin/s2.cgi/sssr/struct/p/iap252.dat

В действующей армии (In combat):
22.06.41 - 19.03.42
01.07.42 - 30.08.42

Расформирован 10.09.42 г. Приказом НКО No. 00196. (Disbanded on September 10, 1942 by the Peoples Commissariat of Defence  order No 00196.)

Fictional camouflage scheme for a fictional unit!!!  Why would anybody treat the rest of information as more reliable???




Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: learstang on January 18, 2012, 11:05:56 PM
Quote:
Several entire series of Yak-9s were completed at Zavoda 153 and 166 for use in the South (in one case, to replace the losses of the 252 IAP in 1944).


252 iap chronology can be found at http://allaces.ru/cgi-bin/s2.cgi/sssr/struct/p/iap252.dat

В действующей армии (In combat):
22.06.41 - 19.03.42
01.07.42 - 30.08.42

Расформирован 10.09.42 г. Приказом НКО No. 00196. (Disbanded on September 10, 1942 by the Peoples Commissariat of Defence  order No 00196.)

Fictional camouflage scheme for a fictional unit!!!  Why would anybody treat the rest of information as more reliable???




Well there you go, Konstantin!  Since by 1944 there weren't any aeroplanes left in the 252nd IAP, no wonder they needed replacements.  They'd lost their entire regiment in 1942 when it disbanded!

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: KL on January 18, 2012, 11:16:31 PM
Well there you go, Konstantin!  Since by 1944 there weren't any aeroplanes left in the 252nd IAP, no wonder they needed replacements.  They'd lost their entire regiment in 1942 when it disbanded!

He, he, I know you understand:  there was no such unit called 252 iap in 1944 - regiment with that name disappeared in Sept 1942 and it wasn't re-established ever after.  ;D

Cheers,
KL


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: erussell on March 31, 2012, 08:00:22 AM
I have the Pilawski book (purchased hot off the press in Helsinki) and I have read a lot of internet correspondence associated with it so I am aware of its fundamental weaknesses.
To be honest, only a few posts in this thread have actually added to my knowledge.
It's a pity there doesn't seem to be any other readily accessible texts on the subject.

We at Red Roo produced a small book to try and fill the same void in knowledge of RAAF colours
http://www.redroomodels.com/books.php?book=7

Why don't a few of you get together and produce a 50-60 page "Modeller's Guide to VVS Colours"?
I imagine it would sell reasonably well.


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: learstang on March 31, 2012, 08:10:43 AM
To be honest, I have actually started a book on just that, based largely on Mikhail Orlov's work, which I partly translated from the Russian.  Unfortunately, I haven't had much time to work on it, as I've been busy trying to finish up a much larger work on modelling the IL-2 Shturmovik.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: warhawk on March 31, 2012, 11:09:18 AM
Plus, most paint standards are still a matter of work (or should we say research) in progress...

Like Japanese aircraft colors standards, there are still quite a few gaps in our knowledge on this topic...


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on March 31, 2012, 12:55:24 PM
Hi,
there is much work in process on this. The pages of the site about the painting of Soviet planes could easily be transformed into a book, and photos and drawings can make a guide to the most recurrent patterns for each type. But if we don't want to make a simple translation of the work of Orlov, there is still much to do.
In the meanwhile, I am collecting here the informations on this subject.
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/color-table.html (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/color-table.html)
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/colors.html (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/colors.html)
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: John Thompson on March 31, 2012, 04:58:17 PM
Why don't a few of you get together and produce a 50-60 page "Modeller's Guide to VVS Colours"?
I imagine it would sell reasonably well.

It's a good idea, and it sounds like Jason and Massimo are working on something that would fill the void (kudos to them!), but don't forget these two references:
(1) Massimo's well-researched web site pages:
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/colors.html
(2) "Colors of the Falcons", by Jiri Hornat and Bob Migliardi:
http://www.iliad-design.com/falconsbook.html
The second one is not perfect from the perspective of the casual modeller who isn't a VVS enthusiast and who just wants to be told specifically, without a lot of thought or decision-making, what colours to paint his model (ideally including a chart showing colour equivalents for widely-available modelling paints), but it's a start.

John


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: KL on April 02, 2012, 09:03:04 PM
I have the Pilawski book (purchased hot off the press in Helsinki) and I have read a lot of internet correspondence associated with it so I am aware of its fundamental weaknesses.
To be honest, only a few posts in this thread have actually added to my knowledge.

This tread should have shawn you that Pilawskii's book is a fiction book, not a history research.  It isn't something that needs a correction here and there; it's tainted  ;), fundamentally wrong...  :-[
Why would we waste our time and effort to correct Pilawskii's book?  It would be a free gift for him.  He has to make a new book and tell the truth (at the same time the new book would show how wrong was his first effort).   

We at Red Roo produced a small book to try and fill the same void in knowledge of RAAF colours...  Why don't a few of you get together and produce a 50-60 page "Modeller's Guide to VVS Colours"?
I imagine it would sell reasonably well.

I'm not sure about the success; there are already two books on the market, who needs the third?... How is RAAF colours book selling?

Cheers,
KL


Title: Modeller's Guide to VVS Colours
Post by: erussell on April 03, 2012, 01:11:57 PM
I have not proposed "a correction here and there" to Pilawski's book. I am quite unable to see that idea anywhere.
I proposed a 50-60 page "Modeller's Guide to VVS Colours" along the lines of our RAAF book, which sells extremely well both in Australia and overseas and has done for several years as it is filling a gap in the market, is authoritative and inexpensive.
I was unaware there were other readily accessible books on the market on this subject - please give us more information.


Title: Re: Modeller's Guide to VVS Colours
Post by: KL on April 03, 2012, 06:48:07 PM
I have not proposed "a correction here and there" to Pilawski's book. I am quite unable to see that idea anywhere.
I proposed a 50-60 page "Modeller's Guide to VVS Colours" along the lines of our RAAF book, which sells extremely well both in Australia and overseas and has done for several years as it is filling a gap in the market, is authoritative and inexpensive.
I was unaware there were other readily accessible books on the market on this subject - please give us more information.

Thread title suggests "corrections" as if there is reliable material in Pilawskii's book.  First post asked for corrections and later other forum members asked for "corrections" in this thread...
Those who are looking for information different than Pilawskii's, should look in other treads;  I did explain many aspects of Soviet colours in other threads.  Massimo's pages are also a good place to start (altough they are not definitive, there were some discussions on this forum and some suggestions for corrections/changes that have not been processed).

Two books on Soviet colours are currently available on the market:
1.  Pilawskii's SAFFC
2.  Hornat & Migliardi's "Colors of the Falcons"

Pilawskii's book is available at http://www.ianallanpublishing.com/soviet-air-force-fighter-colours-1941-1945.html for 35 Lstg, not much more than your RAAF colours book. :-[

Thanks for the suggestion, it's worth a consideration.  Good to know that your book sells well.

Cheers,
KL


Title: Re: Modeller's Guide to VVS Colours
Post by: Marcin Widomski on April 03, 2012, 09:58:36 PM
Two books on Soviet colours are currently available on the market:
1.  Pilawskii's SAFFC
2.  Hornat & Migliardi's "Colors of the Falcons"
Hi there
What about:
Авиаколлекция 2008 №12. Окраска и обозначения самолетов ВВС, 1941-1945 гг. by Orlov and Bahlamov?
Is it ok? Taking into account the limited volume of this publication - 36 p.



Title: Re: Modeller's Guide to VVS Colours
Post by: learstang on April 03, 2012, 10:08:05 PM
Two books on Soviet colours are currently available on the market:
1.  Pilawskii's SAFFC
2.  Hornat & Migliardi's "Colors of the Falcons"
Hi there
What about:
Авиаколлекция 2008 №12. Окраска и обозначения самолетов ВВС, 1941-1945 гг. by Orlov and Bahlamov?
Is it ok? Taking into account the limited volume of this publication - 36 p.


Marcin, it's a compilation of a series of articles published in the Russian magazine MHobby in 1999.  To date, it is the most comprehensive and authoritative book on Soviet aeroplane colours during the Great Patriotic War.  The problem is, it has never been published in English, although others on this site and myself have worked on cleaning up a "machine" (computer) translation of it.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: Marcin Widomski on April 03, 2012, 10:25:00 PM
Thanks a lot for the answer.
I owe this paper/booklet. Russian is not a problem for me.
But I have never had enough time to read it from cover to cover (shame, I have dozens unread journals, books etc)...
I also have the Pilawski's book, it was a gift form my friend from UK, received just after the book had been published. I read it but later I noticed many threads like this one.
So, the book rests in peace on the shelf.

Regards
M.W.


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: erussell on April 03, 2012, 11:53:48 PM
Quote
T(h)read title suggests "corrections" as if there is reliable material in Pilawskii's book.
Two books on Soviet colours are currently available on the market:
1.  Pilawskii's SAFFC
2.  Hornat & Migliardi's "Colors of the Falcons"

Pilawskii's book is available at http://www.ianallanpublishing.com/soviet-air-force-fighter-colours-1941-1945.html

My proposal is for a replacement for Pilawski's book - maybe I should have started a new thread, I can see where the confusion arises.
As I said, I have the Pilawski book - I bought it when it first came out.
Is "Colours of the Falcons" readily accessible. I looked for a copy a while ago but couldn't find one (apart from the usual stupidly-priced Ebay ones)


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: learstang on April 04, 2012, 12:26:55 AM
Quote
T(h)read title suggests "corrections" as if there is reliable material in Pilawskii's book.
Two books on Soviet colours are currently available on the market:
1.  Pilawskii's SAFFC
2.  Hornat & Migliardi's "Colors of the Falcons"

Pilawskii's book is available at http://www.ianallanpublishing.com/soviet-air-force-fighter-colours-1941-1945.html

My proposal is for a replacement for Pilawski's book - maybe I should have started a new thread, I can see where the confusion arises.
As I said, I have the Pilawski book - I bought it when it first came out.
Is "Colours of the Falcons" readily accessible. I looked for a copy a while ago but couldn't find one (apart from the usual stupidly-priced Ebay ones)

Here you go - http://www.christian-schmidt.com/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=Migliardi&search_in_description=1&osCsid=opd6q9itflr0t0iuiknbdm8j27&x=0&y=0  I ordered from them and received an apparently new book in good condition.  There may be other places - I suppose a quick Google search might find some other outlets for this book.  You are correct that there needs to be a replacement for Mr. Pilawskii's magnum opus, and a more updated book than the Colors of the Falcons.  What I had in mind for my book was a relatively short book, something along the lines of the Aviakollektsia book by Mikhail Orlov, but written specifically with the modeller in mind.  However, writing well-researched books is not easy, as I've found out with my IL-2 modelling guide, so this project has been relegated to the back-burner whilst I try and complete my IL-2 book.  Whatever I do, I don't plan on it being as long and comprehensive (remember that comprehensive is not synonymous with accurate) as SAFFC.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: John Thompson on April 04, 2012, 01:27:45 AM
Is "Colours of the Falcons" readily accessible. I looked for a copy a while ago but couldn't find one (apart from the usual stupidly-priced Ebay ones)

It's supposedly available from the publisher, per my post in reply #72 in this thread. Here's the link again:
http://www.iliad-design.com/falconsbook.html

John


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: KL on April 04, 2012, 03:01:09 AM
T(h)read title suggests...

Thanks for the h in "thread" - spelling is too hard for me  :)
KL


Title: "Modellers Guide to VVS Colours" by KL, Learstang, JT, MH, MT et al..... 2014
Post by: erussell on April 05, 2012, 03:43:44 AM
Thanks for the various replies - I'll track down this book.
I really hope a few of you can get together and do something about a new small book. We have experience in publishing and we know how hard it is.... I dunno whether my boss can come at us turning into "Red Star Models - a Red Roo subsidiary" but you never know!

KL - Given my Russian, Czech, Finnish, French and German and.... are practically non-existent, I am reluctant to correct other peoples' English unless I know them, but others say I have the heart of a proof reader so I hope you don't mind. Your English is excellent.

Quote
Thanks for the h in "thread" - spelling is too hard for me  :)
KL


Title: Pilawskii vs. Khaldei
Post by: KL on May 10, 2012, 04:50:51 PM
Pilawskii?s recent research, this time about B. Safonov, is posted at
http://www.redbanner.co.uk/History/ace_aircraft/safonov/safonov.html

It?s typical Pilawskii: no sources, some correct information and a lot of guesswork, his misconceptions, assumptions and a lot of outright misinformation!!!

Author?s propensity to substitute facts with assumptions can be illustrated with what he says about Ye. Khaldei, a photographer who photographed Safonov in front of the I-16 with the inscription ?For Stalin!?

Quote from Pilawskii's page:
Khaldey was a journalist-- not a war correspondent-- and sought to assemble an attractive article for publication in Moscow (that is to say, not necessarily for the military papers or journals). He had no technical knowledge of aviation nor aircraft, and from his other work it seems clear no interest in such details, besides.

Khaldei wasn?t a ?widely read war reporter?.  Haldey was a photo-correspondent; photography was his medium, not articles.  He photographed for TASS before the war, during the war and after the war.  
His wartime photos are in almost every book dealing with GPW or WWII in general.
Following Khaldei?s photo is known worldwide:

(http://img15.nnm.ru/9/3/7/a/8/de1ca3289bc36d413c6990045a9.jpg)

Khaldei was a war photo-correspondent. He started war in Murmansk, later he photographed liberation of Crimea and followed Red Army through Ukraine, Balkans, Hungary and all way to Berlin.  He photographed Teheran meetings and Nurnberg trials.  

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ru/8/85/Khaldei_Goering.jpg)

Pilawskii writes that Khaldei ?had no technical knowledge of aviation nor aircraft? and had ?no interest in such details (aviation)?.  

The truth is that Khaldei took many photos of pilots and aircraft.  In fact, some of the most widely published photos of Soviet WWII planes were taken by Khaldei.

Pilawskii himself used at least two Khaldei?s photos in his SAFFC book:

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/SAFFCHaldeyI-153.jpg)

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/SAFFCHaldeyYak-9Grib.jpg)

It?s not fair to comment WWII photographer?s knowledge and interests and at the same time use his photos.  Did Khaldei?s technical knowledge matter?  Has anybody commented Pilawskii?s technical knowledge?  Or better, has anybody commented Pilawskii?s knowledge of Soviet/Russian history?  This knowledge matters if someone frequently writes about Soviet planes.

KL


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: John Thompson on May 10, 2012, 10:24:21 PM
Konstantin, I have some difficulty saying this because I'm a bit conflicted over the whole issue of Pilawskii and his book. On one hand, I respect hugely your knowledge on so many aspects of the subject of Russian history, and your willingness to be helpful to so many people who are themselves seeking knowledge. On the other hand, Erik's former web site partner Matt Bittner is someone who I regard as a friend, although I realize that none of your comments has ever been directed at Matt. By now, I think EP's book has been criticized in general terms enough that most people will be very careful in assessing the usefulness of the information in that book. It's a shame that it has to be that way, but if that's reality, then that's the way it is. It would be good if this thread could be used for objective and specific corrective information based on accurate research, rather than placing emphasis on perceived flaws in Pilawskii's character and methods. Am I making sense? As I said, I'm having difficulty finding the right words to say this well...

I try, as much as I am capable of doing, to provide some direction on other forums to people who are looking for answers on VVS topics, especially relating to GPW fighter aircraft. While I'm certain that what I see is only slightly, if at all, the result of my small efforts, it does seem that more people are becoming curious about Russian aircraft and their colours and markings. This, I think we all agree, is a good thing which we need to encourage by minimizing our blunt criticisms of published errors (and their author) and trying to direct people toward the correct information.

Thank you!

John


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 11, 2012, 07:38:51 AM
Quote
It?s not fair to comment WWII photographer?s knowledge and interests and at the same time use his photos.

But aren't you utilizing photos from his book and site to criticize him?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: KL on May 24, 2012, 08:57:56 AM
Hi John, thanks for the comments.  :)

... I think EP's book has been criticized in general terms enough that most people will be very careful in assessing the usefulness of the information in that book. It's a shame that it has to be that way, but if that's reality, then that's the way it is.

Pilawskii was criticized at just a few english and russian language forums.  All 20-30 active members on this forum know about the problems associated with his "research".  Some 133 Russians voted against him at scalemodels forum - and that's it!
Check customer reviews at amazon:  http://www.amazon.com/Soviet-Fighter-Colours-1941-45-Classic/product-reviews/190322330X/ref=la_B0034NVINI_1_1_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1   

still 4.5 stars...  Instead of repeating ourselvs here, maybe few of us should write some "objective" reviews at the amazon?

It would be good if this thread could be used for objective and specific corrective information based on accurate research, rather than placing emphasis on perceived flaws in Pilawskii's character and methods.

I have already provided enough corrections, here, and on other forums.  I will not provide any more "corrections" to the author who doesn't deserve them.

My next project is SAFFCC review at the Amazon... ;)

Cheers,
KL


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: John Thompson on May 29, 2012, 01:40:34 AM
Hi John, thanks for the comments.  :)

... I think EP's book has been criticized in general terms enough that most people will be very careful in assessing the usefulness of the information in that book. It's a shame that it has to be that way, but if that's reality, then that's the way it is.

Pilawskii was criticized at just a few english and russian language forums.  All 20-30 active members on this forum know about the problems associated with his "research".  Some 133 Russians voted against him at scalemodels forum - and that's it!
Check customer reviews at amazon:  http://www.amazon.com/Soviet-Fighter-Colours-1941-45-Classic/product-reviews/190322330X/ref=la_B0034NVINI_1_1_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1   

still 4.5 stars...  Instead of repeating ourselvs here, maybe few of us should write some "objective" reviews at the amazon?

It would be good if this thread could be used for objective and specific corrective information based on accurate research, rather than placing emphasis on perceived flaws in Pilawskii's character and methods.

I have already provided enough corrections, here, and on other forums.  I will not provide any more "corrections" to the author who doesn't deserve them.

Cheers,
KL


Fair enough, and no problem here. I'm sorry I didn't respond sooner, but I've been out of town for a week and a half.

My next project is SAFFCC review at the Amazon... ;)

Cheers,
KL


That should be interesting; please post a link if you do! Or maybe you should wait until the new, revised edition is published? ;)

John


Title: Pilawskii vs. Pokrowskii
Post by: KL on November 02, 2012, 07:16:16 PM
A new, farcical ?research? appeared at Red Banner Aviation.  This time it?s about V.P. Pokrovskii and his Yak-1.  Whole ?research? is based on one single photo.  Photo itself is well known and it has been published many times.  In addition to the photo author also refers to a number of profiles published in popular literature.

Is the text worth reading?  Not really - after torturing readers with hundreds of words and five profiles author concludes:

"In the end we simply cannot know how this Yak-1 looked in historical fact. Sufficient evidence on this point simply does not exist."

How reliable is information about Pokrovskii and his plane?  As usual with this author ? it?s mostly misinformation:

1.   Pokrovskii was photographed in front of I-153, not in front of I-16 as author states
2.   Pokrovskii wasn?t with 2nd giap in 1944.  He was actually transferred to another unit in mid-1943
3.   Pokrovskii hasn?t received Yak-1 in summer 1944.  He was actually flying on Yak-1s already in 1943.
4.   2nd giap wasn?t re-equipped with Yak-1s in summer 1944.  It was equipped with Land-Lease fighters till 1945
5.   Pokrovskii was credited with 18 victories ? 12 individual and 6 group victories ? this was clearly drawn on Yak?s tail ? 6 group victories are drawn as a lowest curved row of stars.  It?s unknown how author has 21 victory stars?
6.   Author still promotes his single colour scheme consisting of AMT-11 over AMT-7.  All Yak-1s were camouflaged in factory; in green-black before summer 1943 and in gray-dark gray after summer 1943.



Red Banner Aviation author doesn?t waste his time on forums.  He doesn?t communicate with other enthusiasts/researchers, he never asks questions.  If he had searched information on this forum and sovietwarplanes.com he wouldn?t have made all mistakes listed above.  Same important details about Pokrovskii are actually available on this forum and sovietwarplanes.com research pages!
Cheers,
KL

PS.   Most amusing detail in this otherwise useless text is that we finally know how author became a historian:  He has a Historian hat!!!    Just like that ? he puts his Historian hat on and he is a historian!  He also mentions an Enthusiast hat?  we can only wonder how many hats he has, SAFFC dust jacket mentions that he is a pilot, senior software specialist, modeler, that he can draw profiles?

 


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: learstang on November 02, 2012, 09:54:22 PM
Well, you have to admit, Konstantin, that his profiles are nicely drawn, even if often inaccurate, so he is a good artist, if not a good historian.  I think Massimo has provided a good antidote to this, with good and much more accurate profiles.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 02, 2012, 10:05:59 PM
I hope so...
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: KL on November 05, 2012, 07:02:03 PM
Well, you have to admit, Konstantin, that his profiles are nicely drawn, even if often inaccurate, so he is a good artist, if not a good historian

Yes, I admit that his profiles are nicely drawn!  He is a good (digital) artist, but I also find that he is a hopelessly bad historian.

His flawed ?research? makes many of his profiles useless and misleading ? people should be aware of that - his profiles are nice but wrong and misleading.

He should be drawing Luftwaffe? 46 planes or sci-fi spaceships ? In those cases he could utilize both his fantasy and digital graphic skills.   Why is he trying to draw historically accurate profiles from a period and country that he vaguely understands?  His historian?s hat can?t help!

With his historian?s hat on, he looks like a clown.

Regards,
KL


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: learstang on November 05, 2012, 10:23:12 PM
I agree with that, Konstantin.  To be honest, when I do 3D art, I enjoy doing science-fiction because nobody can tell me I'm wrong!  Unfortunately, many of the profiles that are out there regarding VVS aircraft, and not just from Mr. Pilawskii, seem to be more science-fiction than fact.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: KL on November 16, 2012, 07:19:51 PM
From: http://www.redbanner.co.uk/History/ace_aircraft/pokrovskiy/Pokrovskiy_Yak.html

Quote
With my Historian hat on, I must argue that the least complex suggestion is the one which might best circulate with regards to the usual discussion of the appearance of this aircraft.

Some suggestions for Red Banner author:
(http://rlv.zcache.ca/worlds_best_historian_hat-p148081710398249230enxqi_216.jpg?max_dim=328)
(http://rlv.zcache.ca/worlds_greatest_historian_hat-p148184809196189690en7ph_216.jpg?max_dim=328)
(http://rlv.zcache.ca/top_historian_hat-p148193414711077273enwwf_216.jpg?max_dim=328)
(http://rlv.zcache.ca/proud_historian_hats-p148313668492417722en7ph_216.jpg?max_dim=328)


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 16, 2012, 09:30:31 PM
Hi Konstantin,
I've preferred to remove the last two ones, the joke is becoming too heavy.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: KL on November 16, 2012, 11:23:41 PM
Hi Konstantin,
I've preferred to remove the last two ones, the joke is becoming too heavy.
Regards
Massimo

Heavy, but good!!!   ;D

Hat is a must for aviation historians, this is supposedly Dana Bell, an eminent aviation historian and author (according to http://janusmuseum.org/panabasis/feb06.htm )

(http://janusmuseum.org/panabasis/fez03.jpg)


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: JP on November 29, 2012, 05:42:38 AM
I have to admit, I laughed at the hats...would be funny to have one.


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: KL on February 27, 2013, 06:57:38 PM
Any effort to explain VVS colours is commendable.  One attempt is available at
http://www.fritzthefox.com/soviet_camo_guide.html
I am posting it here because it's a condensed Pilawskii's philosophy.  Author of this web page read Pilawskii's book and he draw wrong conclusions:

Camouflage of the Russian Air Force, or VVS (which is an ancronym for some long Russian words which are hard to pronounce even in your head) was largely determined at the factory level. The NKAP, or People's Commissariat for the Aviation Industry, finally got around to issuing templates to the factories around 1943, but like most government efforts at micromanagement, they were largely ignored. Paints used were often whatever was available, and patriotic slogans could often be found scrawled on the planes by the workers who built them.

The latest authoritative word on the subject is Erik Pilawskii's "Soviet Air Force Fighter Colors 1941-1945".


Corrections:
Camouflage (meaning 2 or 3 colour disruptive pattern) was required by VVS during the war, it wasn't determined at the factory level!  Factories actually didn't have any influence in this matter:
- VVS was the buyer (VVS placed orders for planes)
- NKAP (ministry of aviation industry) was the seller - NKAP formally owned factories
- Factories were the contractors - they fulfilled the orders

First camouflage templates were issued in 1941, not in 1943!

Factories could not ignore VVS requirements! Factories did not ignore VVS requirements!
If you order a white car at the dealership and if dealership ignores your request and delivers pink car; you probably would not pay the car.  Same with VVS camouflage:  each plane was received by VVS commission - how can factory ignore requested camouflage??

Planes were not painted with "whatever was available"!
  
Patriotic slogans were written in VVS units by pilots and mechanics, not by the workers who built them.  Only exception were planes donated by groups or individuals - because donors paid for the planes and they requested slogans at the factories.  Make sense?

I'll leave to the others to comment amusing and humorous illustrations:

(http://www.fritzthefox.com/images/camo_gfx/russia_markings_book.jpg)
(http://www.fritzthefox.com/images/camo_gfx/russia_camo_1_book.jpg)
(http://www.fritzthefox.com/images/camo_gfx/russia_camo_2_book.jpg)


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: learstang on February 27, 2013, 07:28:06 PM
Wow, is all I can say!  Someone needs to point this poor gentleman (good for him at least trying) to this site for some accurate information on VVS colours.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: John Thompson on February 27, 2013, 10:23:35 PM
You guys can't be serious - it's not a good try or a commendable effort, it's a complete crock, and an insult to anyone who's serious about the subject. A statement like "VVS (which is an ancronym (sic) for some long Russian words which are hard to pronounce even in your head)" shows disrespect and lack of any real interest. It looks like he decided to create some kind of children's guide to WWII camouflage and realized at the last minute that he should throw in something about Russian aircraft. Not all of this can be blamed on Pilawskii's book, no matter how he credits its authority - Soviet Air Force Fighter Colours 1941-1945 didn't include much about the Il-2 or Il-4, the last time I looked at it. And to think that people will actually read and believe this "Fritz the Fox" person - I hate the Internet...  >:(

John


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: TISO on February 28, 2013, 12:44:11 AM
Fritz'es treatment of french and japanese AF colurs recived the same treatment. One could comment that Fritz "newest" books are at least 20 years old. I serously doubt that this gentelmen even saw Pilawski book. Heck even Pilawski should protest to be cited as reference on that site (not to mention guys from J-aircraft or stormo).


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: KL on February 28, 2013, 08:41:28 PM
You guys can't be serious - it's not a good try or a commendable effort, it's a complete crock, and an insult to anyone who's serious about the subject...
Not all of this can be blamed on Pilawskii's book, no matter how he credits its authority - Soviet Air Force Fighter Colours 1941-1945 didn't include much about the Il-2 or Il-4, the last time I looked at it.

Complete crock - nice description  :D

Long time ago, after he published SAAFC, Pilawskii posted his own version of Il-2 camouflage development on his old website.  It was so fantastic/surrealistic that it can't be found there anymore.
Green-Dark Green scheme for bombers can be found even now on Pilawkii's current website

(http://www.redbanner.co.uk/History/il2guide/pe2-a2gdg.jpg)

I serously doubt that this gentelmen even saw Pilawski book.

I think that Fritz actually read Pilawskii's book!  Fritz has described in two sentences Pilawskii's main idea:  Camouflage was determined at the factory level. NKAP templates were largely ignored...
Entyre SAAFC book, about 200 pages, revolves around this idea: this Zavod, that Zavod, Zavod + Zavod = Zavoda, etc...  :P

As I tried to explain above, it did not work that way.


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: John Thompson on February 28, 2013, 09:04:10 PM
I think that Fritz actually read Pilawskii's book!  Fritz has described in two sentences Pilawskii's main idea:  Camouflage was determined at the factory level. NKAP templates were largely ignored...
Entyre SAAFC book, about 200 pages, revolves around this idea: this Zavod, that Zavod, Zavod + Zavod = Zavoda, etc...  :P

As I tried to explain above, it did not work that way.


Mmmm, yes - I had forgotten about Nadiya Bukhanova and her creative camouflage artistry... :o

John


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on March 01, 2013, 07:11:46 AM
To tell the truth, the idea that the factories had their own interpretation of the camouflage has a partial truth. I can easily distinguish the factory of production of Il-2s from some details of the photos, including the camo pattern.  The sketch of 1941 was the base for the most of the types of plane, but each had its particularities.
The thing is more difficult to say for post-1943 patterns, because grey and green are often undistinguishable in photos.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: KL on March 01, 2013, 08:12:17 AM
... the idea that the factories had their own interpretation of the camouflage has a partial truth. I can easily distinguish the factory of production of Il-2s from some details of the photos, including the camo pattern.

What you can do is nice, but it doesn't prove Pilawskii's theory:  Camouflage determined by factories and camouflage interpreted by factories are two very different things.

Pilawskii says that factories devised camouflage schemes.  He says that Zavod 21 started painting I-16s in black-green scheme in 1938!  That Zavod 1 made green-dark green I-153s in 1940!
Pilawskii also writes that Zavods often ignored NKAP orders.  He writes how 1944 La-7s were single gray colored (no camouflage at all).  This teory is fundamentally wrong.

You are saying that there were variations between Zavods in how ordered schemes were executed.  You also know that this was the result of poorly defined patterns (1941 scheme did not define one side, plus there was a requirement to vary patterns)
Do you have any evidence that factories ignored orders and delivered uncamouflaged planes or planes camouflaged in non-standard colours (red-brown, yellow or lime green) during the GPW?

Pilawskii doesn't explain why planes were camouflaged in the first place.  SAFFC readers get an impression that factories switched to camoufalge when they wanted and camouflaged planes how they wanted.
I can't find Pilawskii's two-part Il-2 camouflage treatise, but those who read it got an impression that factories actually competed who will invent more colourfull scheme.  According to Pilawskii camouflage was seen by the factory workers as an expression of their identity!?!?

All this shows that Pilawskii doesn't have a clue how Soviet aviation industry was organized and who was responsible for the camouflage.  He substitutes his lack of knowledge with fiction and fairytales.

Regards,
KL


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: Troy Smith on March 02, 2013, 03:46:23 AM
You guys can't be serious - it's not a good try or a commendable effort, it's a complete crock, and an insult to anyone who's serious about the subject.

 And to think that people will actually read and believe this "Fritz the Fox" person - I hate the Internet...  >:(

John

HI John

I had a quick look at the some of the other sections...  the guy actually makes VVS camo sounds more complex than Luftwaffe camo!!!!

The IS the internet, well, internet generation, have a read

http://www.fritzthefox.com/ww2airplane_guide.html
Quote
If you're like me, you love airplane books. Big, coffee-table-sized, lavishly illustrated books with lots of exciting photos and cutaways to pore over for hours. It's a good thing those books have lots of pictures, too, because they are often dreadfully boring to read. While it may conceivably be helpful to know that the Bf109 was powered by a Daimler-Benz dee-bee-five-oh-whatever producing so many horsepower at such and such an altitude, it certainly isn't light reading. So I took the liberty of preparing a kindler, gentler coffee table book, with all the boring technical bits left out. You don't even need a coffee table! What follows is still packed with information, but presented in an eye-friendly format for your amusement and enlightenment. The format should be easy enough to figure out, but below are a few comments that may provide you some further insights into what it all means...

classic
http://www.fritzthefox.com/building_a_model_airplane.html

It's like asking me to play  soccer, [or any other sport]  and write it up..

also worth a quick squizz
http://www.fritzthefox.com/tenworstplanes.html

including the repated story about the Buffalo... yeah, not the greatest plane in the Pacific, but a bunch of ill prepared US or British Empire flyers against some of the best flyers in the world....

They guy does have a contact address. mailto:[email protected]

the ONE good thing is he does link to sites with real information.  
maybe he needs some emails to add a link here to his VVS fantasies...

The internet is great if you have a brain.  If you have half a brain you might learn.  But it also gives the dim a platform, and there are a lot of them... especially the ones with ADHD who make sites like this...  

erm, slighly off topic..

I never did rant about Pilawskii's 151 wing Hurricane profile with a big grey fusleage repair patch did I....
still this is the an who prefaced his Hurricane fanstaies with
Quote
I have no expertise in the field of RAF camouflage, and whilst working from excellent resource material, I have not undertaken physical studies of these paints nor their properties. The resulting character of the various British paints, and the Soviet ones used to modify their appearance, is therefore theoretical in nature, and represents my own attempt to find the most likely solution which fits the current evidence.
http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Modeling/Hawker/Hurricane/HurriProfiles/Part1/VVS_Hurricanes-1.html

I can't even begin to to pick my way through that train wreck [or is it worth another posting??] but the 3rd plane in winter camo is not DFS but TLS.... sky undersides show nearly white against snows, not dull grey....

blah, too cranky to be posting, got a cold...

T

PS Jason  - http://www.fritzthefox.com/ww2guide/il2.html

John  - http://www.fritzthefox.com/ww2guide/yak1.html

cutting edge research here...


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on March 02, 2013, 12:45:16 PM
Hi,
I've tried to write to him, but my mail didn't arrive; I don't know if the mail address is invalid or some antispam filter is making its jokes. Anyway, all the site has an humoristic approach, so I don't think that the unaccuracies in this page will fool many modellers.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: John Thompson on March 03, 2013, 08:02:06 PM
Okay, maybe I overreacted - heaven knows, I have no right to call myself an expert on VVS camouflage or to condemn this guy's light-hearted attitude. Modelbuilding is supposed to be fun, after all. Although associations between "Yak" (as in Yakovlev) and "hairy Asian cows" always strike me as really, really lame, no matter how well-intended.

Get well soon, Troy!  :)

John


Title: Re: Corrections for Pilawski's book
Post by: learstang on March 03, 2013, 08:21:32 PM
To be honest, I find his site rather amusing (in a good sense), and reasonably harmless (as long as people realise that this is the site for accurate Soviet schemes!).  At least he doesn't take himself too deadly serious.

Regards,

Jason