Sovietwarplanes

Another one!
this one is very famous, but I have some quesitons about it...

(http://nsm05.casimages.com/img/2011/05/24//110524032738534318208668.jpg) (http://www.casimages.com)

first, it'is say that in the other side it's written: За ВКП (б)! is there any pic of this ?

second, this plane is almost always show like that:

(http://www.altromusical.com/model1/aero/ac2170.jpg)

(http://nsm01.casimages.com/img/2009/03/14//090314044346585293313348.jpg)

I'm not sure at all that there is so much red...

in the front part I don't see any htink that make me think the cowl is red:

(http://nsm05.casimages.com/img/2011/05/24//110524025505534318208534.jpg) (http://www.casimages.com)

in the tail part it more difficult I have to admit that a different tonality is seen in the pic, who can go up in the tail.

but this metal part is never peint in a different colours in the other I-16 Iseen...

could be red (it's trus that the tonality of this part is the eame of the star), but it could be in metal paint, or silver too...

(http://nsm05.casimages.com/img/2011/05/24//110524025505534318208535.jpg) (http://www.casimages.com)

this version seems more correct to me, but I have doubt.

(http://nsm05.casimages.com/img/2011/05/24//110524032149534318208652.jpg) (http://www.casimages.com)


What would you say about this decoration ?

Xan

<sigh> I once had my heart set on doing a type 5 with a red cowling, but I was told I was wrong... ;)

For what it's worth, the cowling colour looks different from the colour of the fuselage star; in fact, I don't see much difference between the cowling and the main part of the fuselage. On the other hand, the lighter colour on base of the fin is probably the difference (after some weathering) between metal finish and wood/fabric finish paints. This is seen in a lot of I-16 photos. I suspect that the beautiful red-nosed scheme in the Academy box art is wrong, and the profile in your last image is closer to the truth.

John

Hi Xan,
I would exclude that the tail was red, and so the engine cowling. Take in account that the stabilizer is lightened from the front size, so its leading edge looks lighter than the side.
The plate in front of the stabilizer looks painted in a lighter, or more faded, shade of green, probably A-19f. In the Za CCCP photo it looks casually similar to the red star, but on the other photo its color is clearly different.
Regards
Massimo

Thanks to both of you; I do agree with you...
Does anybody know a pic of the hiden side of the moon ?
if we know what was written in the other side (but are we sur of this inscription?), it's surely because they was another pic of the plane isn't it?
perhaps should I ask in scale model.ru?

Xan

This may or may not be helpful - Wings Palette has a total of seven profiles of Surzhenko's I-16. None of them shows a red cowling or any large areas of red on the tail, so where the Academy box art got its inspiration is impossible to say. All of the profiles show only the left side of the aircraft, but you can see an inscription on the right side in the plan view of this one:
http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww2/f/317/1/8/3

The yellow markings are questionable, though!

John

Hi John and Xan,
the book of Gordon and Dexter Polikarpov I-16 fighter, red star volume 3, has a profile with red nose and tail, and a photo where the engine cowling appears lighter than the remaining part of the fuselahge. Besides I remember to have seen another photo elsewhere, where the nose gave the idea to be lighter. I suppose again that it is a lighter or more faded shade of green.
Regards
Massimo

Was it this one? (My "red-nosed" type 5; I still think fondly of it... ;) )
(http://s4.postimage.org/46c1bv78k/I_16_11.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/46c1bv78k/)

John

Hi John,
not this one, I think to have seen a plane with Za CCCP or a Stalina and 'light' cowling somewhere, probably on some French magazine.
Regards
Massimo

Hi John,  :)
it is a good example how lighting can confuse those who are trying to figure out colours from b/w photos.

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/I_16_11-red.jpg)

IMHO, the engine cowling of your "red-nosed" type 5 is as red as soldier's uniform or grass around the plane.

Cheers,
KL

Xan, answers are here:  http://www.airpages.ru/ru/saf-i16.shtml

Safonov's I-16 had ?Смерть фашизму!? and ?За ВКП(б)!?

Kovalenko's I-16, tail No 11 had ?За Сталина!? and ?За Коммунизм!?

Surzhenko's I-16, tail No 13 had ?За СССР!? on port side and it is unknown what, or if it had anything, on the other side of the fuselage.

Hope this helps,  8)
KL

Thanks, Konstantin - I got talked out of it pretty quickly the last time, too... ;)

John

Hi,
probably the 'white star' is due to cutting the fabric by some German souvenir hunter. The inside should be silver or light grey.
Regards
Massimo

Safonov's I-16 in Pilavskii's interpretation:

(http://www.elements4health.com/images/stories/food/limes.jpg)(http://www.redbanner.co.uk/Profiles/albums/USSR/album/slides/Poster_White51_A3.jpg)(http://www.elements4health.com/images/stories/food/limes.jpg)


Has anybody seen photo of this plane??? The inscription is OK, but tail star and number 51 must be fictional (wrong!).

Check it out http://www.redbanner.co.uk/Profiles/orders.html
You may own this beauty for only ?65.00   :-X

Cheers,
KL
 

OK, Pilawskii's poster depicts Safonov's second plane, Type 28 tail No 51. It's the plane that is displayed in the museum in St. Petersburg. This plane probably didn't have any inscriptions when flown by Safonov, but inscriptions did appear later when plane was displayed.

(http://www.airpages.ru/img/i16_saf.jpg)

(http://www.airpages.ru/img/ru/i16saf.jpg) 

? 65??? A poster in A3? Apart for the lime green, I haven't idea on who could pay such a price for any A3 poster, unless the author paints it by brush on a canvas!
Regards
Massimo

Safonov and Kovalenko's I-16 Type 24 "Za Stalina"

(http://reibert.info/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=693051&d=1289498673)

(http://reibert.info/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=693050&d=1289498673)

(http://reibert.info/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=137324&d=1231604413)

(http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/5900/haldeyimg017557.jpg)

one more with whole inscription

(http://images.ewins.com/digital_asset_manager/image_resize.php?vi=471333&mdx=800)

All photos were taken by war correspondent Yevgeniy Haldey on July 06, 1941

(http://crimso.msk.ru/Images6/AK/AK1995-11/61-3.jpg)

(http://crimso.msk.ru/Images6/IA/IA-29/17-1.jpg)

A well known photo montage

(http://crimso.msk.ru/Images6/AM/AM03-5/4-1.jpg)

(http://crimso.msk.ru/Images6/AM/AM03-5/4-2.jpg)

S. Surzhenko, 72th SAP VVS SF:

(http://crimso.msk.ru/Images6/AK/AK2006-06/37-5.jpg)

(http://r.foto.radikal.ru/0703/71804fd3c51f.jpg)

V. P. Pokrovskiy, later HSU, same 72th SAP VVS SF:
 
(http://t.foto.radikal.ru/0703/ed6d00801c80.jpg)

Great pics, thank you konstantin.
it's a shame we do not have pics of the other side, neither 11 or 13
Xan

A clarification: is the so-photographed pilot Safonov, and the plane of Kovalenko 'Za Stalina' chosen for the photos only because it was more beautiful?
Then, what is SAP for? Not a fighter unit?
Regards
Massimo

I believe S = ground attack (Shturmoviki) in the same way that I = fighter/destroyer (Istrebitelyi); therefore, SAP instead of the more familiar IAP.

John

just a bit of correction: S (C) = smeshannyj (mixed); Sh (Ш) = shturmovyj (ground attack) 

Boris

Thank you
Massimo

Thank you, Boris! I couldn't really imagine the I-16 being used for pure ground attack service, but to be used as an escort for ground attack planes in a mixed squadron makes much better sense.

John

Massimo,
Boris is right:  SAP stends for "Smeshanii Aviatsionii Polk" = Mixed Aviation Regiment

At the begining of the GPW, 72 SAP had 4 fighter and 1 bomber squadrons ("eskadrilia") and had 49 fighters (28 I-15bis, 17 I-153 and 4 I-16s) and 11 SB bombers.
from:http://sk16.ru/vvssf.shtml

I-16s comprised 4th squadron, SB bombers 5th squadron.

KL

Thank you Konstantin.
Massimo