Sovietwarplanes

Hi,
this is my next project, a I-15 bis of the 70 IAP Kalkhin gol war, in may of 1939:

(http://nsm05.casimages.com/img/2011/06/03//110603052901534318261807.jpg) (http://www.casimages.com)

I've no pics of this plane, and the only one I got of this regiment is that one:

(http://nsm05.casimages.com/img/2011/06/03//110603052901534318261808.jpg) (http://www.casimages.com)

a plane shooted down in the first month of the war.
However this pic gives some elements :
the wing's upside apears clearly silver, and so does the propeler...
Do you agree with me ?

Does somebody have a pic of this plane ?

thanks

Xan

Hi Xan,
I agree, your photo shows silver wing underside.

How we understand I-15bis colours at this time, most I-15bis had undersides painted in gray AE-9 for metal parts and silver AII Aluminium for fabric covered surfaces.  There is a posibility that early 1938 planes had undersides painted in solid gray, same as I-16s (actually AE-9 and AII Gray).

Few corrections for your profile:
1.  Undersides are most likely painted in gray & silver combination, not light blue!  ::)
2.  Boundary between light gray and green on engine cowling should be a straight line higher than shown
3.  White line abowe the tailplane is a strip of fabric, not part of markings

I'll check for the photo...

Cheers,
KL

Sorry, no photos... :-[

profile is supposed to represent I-15bis captured by Japanese forces in March 1939.  Pilot D. Gusarov lost orientation and landed on enemy terytory.

Cheers,
KL

thank you konstantin for searching, and thank you too for the informations you founded...
Xan

Hi everybody,
I started my new project of I-152:
http://www.master194.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=63442 (http://www.master194.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=63442)

Does someone have any idea in wich coulur were paint interior part of a I-152 ?
I asked to neoking , but he doesn't know. i just think that the actual paint (grey green) is not the primitive one
Without any information I will do it in A14 grey...

Xan

Hi Xan,
looking at the photos on the Squadron/Signal, I suppose that a lighter color could have been utilized, possibly AE-9.
Regards
Massimo

hello friends,
Ineed your help about an information.
loking at the plan I notice A and B parts:

(http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/480171tole.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=480171tole.jpg)

1) what is that (A, B)?
2) are they metal part?
3) are they in the both side ?

My model is going on.
It is an huggly resin model, a "replica", quite primitive , and only mounting the kit was all a challenge  ;)

(http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/142618P1090795.jpg)

what do you say about colours ?

For the AII green, I get the Akan paint lighter with 10% of white:

(http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/218032P1090940.jpg)

here is the AE-9 (the real colours is lighter) what do you think about? (all the colours will be glosiers)

(http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/788128P1090969.jpg)

Xan

The colours look good to me, Xan.  Regarding parts A and B, I believe A is for carrying bombs, but B I don't know what that is.  Part A is metal and is on both sides.  No doubt someone who's more of an expert on the I-15 series will be able to tell you for certain about these parts.

Regards,

Jason

Hi Xan,
the tip is metal skinned on this side only, the English caption on the Polish version of the book of Maslov says:
It could be not on all the planes, for example I can see a right wingtip that looks fabric skinned in the photo at pag 21 of my book.
Regards
Massimo

Hello xan:

Your?re doing a nice work on your I-15bis,the colours look good to me too.Greetings.

Martin

Thanks to all of you.

Does someone know if the A and B metal parts were present in all the I-152 or only during the great patriotic war, when they became groud attack planes?

here is my step-by-step
http://www.master194.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=63442&start=125 (http://www.master194.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=63442&start=125)

Xan

Hi Xan,
I-15bis was from the beginning designed as a "fighter-bomber".  All I-15bis could cary bombs, they were not converted in Sturmoviks later in 1940/41.
Bomb racks (actually hollow metal beams) were instaled inside the lower wing between wing spars.  Your Part A is metal cover for those bomb racks.

Polish translation Massimo provided is not accurate in details: those were not signal flares - pilot had a pistol in cockpit for signal flares!
Rockets/torches/flares stored in the right wing tip were used to light the airfield during the night landing.  In Maslov's book they are called parachute torches.  It is posible that those were installed only in "Night Fighters".

Hope this helps,
Konstantin   

(http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/480171tole.jpg)

Xan,

Both Part A and Part B are metal.

Part A is on both sides and present on all I-15bis fighters

Part B right wing only, maybe not  present on all I-15bis fighters.  If I were you I would make my model with it, makes model more interesting.  ;)

Cheers, :)
KL

My poorly calibrated monitor is showing AE-9 as something yellow-green  ???. AE-9 is light gray with light bluish shade.


FS-15630 is provided by Pilawskii and, by definition, can not be right!

(http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=88684156e.jpg)

the colours are more like following:

(http://www.sukhoi.ru/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=121080&d=1289564115)

(http://www.sukhoi.ru/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=121081&d=1289564115)

It looks like Xan updated the lower picture - it does look like it might have a bit of a yellowish cast to it (I don't think it did before).  Are seeing this in person, Xan?

Regards,

Jason

I did updated...
hard to take a good picture especialy by night...
I will try another one:

(http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/195688P1090972.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=195688P1090972.jpg)


quite a dangerous sentence Konstantin  ;)

anyway I found this reference on Hornat's "colors of the falcons" P.55.
those are not Hornat's colours value?

in this pics, the B metal piece appears clearly in grey AE-9, near the red star.
The bombs racking (A) doesn't seem to be AE-9 ...

Massimo, this pic come from your web site, do you know where is this pic taken ?

Xan

Xan, it's still yellow  :o.  Could be the flash?  ???

Following are SB bomber fragments, all painted in light gray AE-9

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/SB%20Colours/PLANXA-PINTURABK-093-Agrayprimer.jpg)
(http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Research/1948/bk093-strap-aeh8.jpg)
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/SB%20Colours/RaatteenTie-SuomussalmiSBwing2.jpg)
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/SB%20Colours/84353908yo1.jpg)
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/SB%20Colours/EstonianLatgaliyaSBrudderMelkonovBo.jpg)
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/SB%20Colours/071008021719_5-7_oktyabrya_2007_071.jpg)
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/SB%20Colours/071008021659_5-7_oktyabrya_2007_070.jpg)
(http://www.webpark.ru/uploads54/100908/Chroniks_10.jpg)
(http://www.webpark.ru/uploads54/100908/Chroniks_15.jpg)
(http://www.webpark.ru/uploads54/100908/Chroniks_20.jpg)
(http://aviapoisk.narod.ru/pics_sb/DSC_1645.JPG)

Thank you konstantin for those pics It clearly understand my error.
I will correct it.
so , about the colours references in "colors of the falcons" P.55:
the AE-9 FS reference is wrong; is it an Hornat work or a later adition ?

Hi,
from photos, all the pieces known look more bluish than the fs given by Hornat and Pilawskii. The color visible on the inside of the I-153 of Bourget looks more yellowish. Probably the paint ages differently if exposed to sunlight or not.
However, the bluish version looks more credible for me too.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Masimo,
neoking told me i wasn't sure at all the intrior paint in the cockpit was the real one...

however does someone know if the table of FS in the book p.55 was elaboreted by Hornat, or if it's pilawskii work added (in witch case it wouldn't be serious work at all by the editor)

reading again the MP neoking send me, he is mch more clear:

Je ne saurais pas dire exactement quelle couleur est peinte dans le cockpit. Il semble que la structure ait ?t? compl?tement repeinte, car certaines zones non repeintes montrent un gris clair voir legerement bleut? sur certaines pi?ces. Mais je suis a peu pr?s sur que la couleur verd?tre que tu vois sur les photos n'est pas d'origine.

wich means: Icouldn't tell you the exact colour of the cockpit, it seems that structure has been totaly painted again. Some part are grey, or a little bit bluish in some part. I am quite sure that the grey green colour have been painted later

Xan

Yes, it is Pilawskii's work!
In his 2003 book (known as SAFFC), on page 17, in "A Treatise on VVS Colour System", Pilavskii gives following equivalents for what he calls "AEh-9 Lacquer":

FS Colour Range:  FS(2)5630
Pantone equivalent:  Pantone Cool Grey 1
Methuen Colour Book:  17B1
Munsell Colour Match:  2.25G/9.13/0.95

There is no doubt what were the sources used in 2005 "Colors of the Falcons" - both M-Hobby texts and Pilawskii's SAFFC!!! Migliardi explained this to Massimo.  FS25630 as an equivalent for AE-9 was published only in SAFFC.  Considering large number of fictional and misidentified colours in this book, I would not take this as a reliable information.  :-X

Happy modelling,  :)
KL  

Hi,
it would be good to see some fs equivalent from those wrecks. One can guess from the photos, but it's a risk.
Regards
Massimo

Massimo,  :)
From 1936 to 1940 only one gray paint was used on series SB bombers:  AE-9.  Consiquently, there is no way to misidentify paint on all those SB wrecks, they were all painted in AE-9.

Between 1939 and 1945 several gray paints were used as interior colour:  A-14, A-14f, AE-9, maybe old greenish gray used on TB-3 bombers.  Consiquently, there is a lot of room to misidentify colours, especially on museum exhibits.

Regarding your "paint aging" comment:  Fragments I posted yesterday are from 7 different wrecks!!!  They were found in different climate zones: from sub-arctic taiga to warm Spain.  Some were dug-out from dirt, some were preserved in museums, some were exposed to the elements for decades.  After more than half a century of "aging" they all look the same!!!.
IMHO, those  "new" and  very different "old" colours are fiction, another Pilawskii's influence.  How can he (or anybody else) know nowdays how those colours looked when new 60-70 years ago?????

Paints did degrade and change, that was a concern for their users, but did they drastically change colour??? I don't think so.  For modelling purposes (in 1:72 scale) that change is quite irrelevant.  leave to modellers (and their artistic license) to weather/wear/age their models.
If I were you, I would remove from your colour tables all those chips showing new and old colours.  Those are your guesses only.

Cheers,
KL

Hi Konstantin,
this abundance of wrecks is encouraging, but they should be photographed aside a page of chips, maybe FS, to be identified with precision from photos. It shouldn't be impossible to find someone that has the possibility to do so. Maybe one could make a catalogue as a present fo Montoya or other owners... unfortunately, here FS catalogues are rare.
Regards
Massimo

Hello boys!
I did the wing top's metal piece as it appears in the plan:

(http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/152109P1090975.jpg)

I was quite happy with my work when I saw this pic's in the massimo's web site.

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/1937-40/i15wreckunders.jpg)

the metal piece is not at the same place, so my plan is wrong; here's where the metal piecehad to be:

(http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/396576152109P1090975bis.jpg)

what a shame  :( :(

Xan

Hi Xan,
maybe they weren't all identical. I would look in photos, maybe there is still something to clarify.
Regards
Massimo

Xan,you?ve done a good detailing work with the metal piece,leave it as it is,you run the risk of ruining the wing undersurface.Greetings.

Martin

Maslov is a reliable source, I would not change the location of the plate.  Just trim 1mm towards the wing tip.

Few pics that may help with "the plates":

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/0_77e5_c14244ed_orig.jpg)
I-153 with "night landing torches" in place...

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/e-baysilverundersides2.jpg)

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/File4508.jpg)

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/2007-05-29-024.jpg)

Thanks a lot Konstantin for all those pics!

another thing: does someone know in which colors were the soviet bombs painted ?
4BO, AII green ?

Xan

None of those two  :D:
-  4BO was a "basic" Army camouflage colour, bombs were not camouflaged
-  AII green was a nitrocellulose lacquer for fabric

Answer on your question at:
http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_10144_start_0.html
http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_9828.html

(http://s1.postimage.org/47ftlh21t/bye1.jpg)

Hi Konstantin,
maybe someone could be interested if you resume here what they write.
Regards
Massimo

Is that the answer konstantin?

(http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/873382image.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=873382image.jpg)

Do you know if the I-152 could carry four fab-100, or where they to heavy ?

Xan

Nice links on the bombs and rockets, Konstantin - thank you for posting!

Regards,

Jason

Too heavy!  ;)

Max bomb load was 150kg:  2xOA-25 + 2xFAB-50 (two 25kg fragmental + two 50kg explosiv bombs)

Bombs were painted in anticorosive gray colour.  Fragmental bombs had 15mm wide blue line around the cyllinrical part of the body.

Check M-Hobby text at:   http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_954_start_0.html

Cheers,
KL   

Hi Xan,
Something like this would make an interesting model!   

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/20204.jpg)

::)

Cheers,
KL

Wonderful pic mister KL,
I've got this one too:

(http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/531519bom4.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=531519bom4.jpg)

Xan

Xan,
interesting photo, what is the bomb type?  ???

I would go with max bomb load and two different types of bombs (makes model more interesting)

Bombs were painted in colour called "sero-dikaya" (wild grey ;D think of wolfs or gray stripped cats).  Colour was widely usud, everybody has an idea  ;), but there is no agreement about it...  :-X

It should be a mid gray with some green hue.  Some say it is similar to "Slate Gray" or German "Feld Grau"

Something like this:

(http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/4802/grenoble.29/0_3d133_c9d93df0_XL.jpg)
(http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/4800/grenoble.29/0_3d132_e9ecd85d_XL.jpg)

Real FAB-50 found in Harkow:

(http://img.nr2.ru/pict/arts1/21/00/210024.jpg)

FAB-50 drawing:
(http://trizna.ru/galerea/albums/userpics/FAB-50sv_1937.jpg)

 Hi mister KL,
your pics are very helpful,
I would like represent the FAB-50 bombs and the AO-25 bombs.
I have i resin set of soviet bombs, but there is only Fab-250 and FAB-100 bombs.
I ask for FAB-50 if they exist or if someone have it but I get no answer...
I think that if I want to represent them, I will have to scratch them.
Do you know the dimentions of the bomb?

Xan

I have that fron the Po-2:

(http://www.cybermodeler.net/hobby/kits/edu/images/edu_u-2_parts4.jpg)

but I imagine they are smaller than the FAB-50...
Did I-152 either ever carrie small bombs like that?

Xan

Hi Xan,  :)
First, it's I-15bis, not I-152 ::) (I-152 was a single prototype)

Second, modelling expert like you would scratch build bombs just for fun  ;) ....  to show how they should look like.

Those long bombs included in your Po-2 are supposed to represent AO-25, but they are hardly recognizable - one reason more to scretch build  8)

I will look for AO-25 information in my books, Internet search didn't yield any results.... :'(

FAB-50 dimensions are given on the drawing I posted yesterday - check right side for English translation!

Cheers,  :)
KL

OK, is it I-153 or I-15 ter as I saw sometimes?


oh, I'm a lazy modeler...
I found that:

(http://www.nexternal.com/SBM/images/vecvds48003.jpg)
and buy it at once!
I will scratsch the two AO-25

Well here my new AE-9:

(http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/985606P1090998.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=985606P1090998.jpg)

(http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/382139P1090997.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=382139P1090997.jpg)
too blueish isn't it? I will pass a light gray very dilueted, but before , I wait for your rections...

(http://www.webpark.ru/uploads54/100908/Chroniks_20.jpg)
(http://www.webpark.ru/uploads54/100908/Chroniks_10.jpg)

Xan

Here are the last pics; I passed light grey and I'm quite happy with the result:

a pic on my desk:
(http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/287184P1100002.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=287184P1100002.jpg)

another one on the window:

(http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/529225P1100005.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=529225P1100005.jpg)

anyway, much better than in the begining, thanks to you Konstantin!

Xan

The Ae-9 looks good to me, Xan!  Regarding the I-15ter, I think the "ter" was used for the prototype; the commonly accepted designation is I-153.  By the way, where did those resin 50kg bombs come from?

Regards,

Jason

hi Xan,
Your AE-9 is quite convincing, "like real"! :)
Don't forget to make AE-9 glossy.  Silver should remain "grainy" and "reflective".
It would be interesting to see the contrast between smooth/glossy AE-9 and rough/grainy silver AII Al

that resin FAB-50 looks very good too!.  you will have to add "wind mill" and brace its fins as per the drawing.

Cheers,
KL

PS>  I'll post shortly info re AO-25  8)

Hi Xan,  :)

your "uhvat k derzhatelyu" ("crutches" in English????) could be improved; inner and outer bomb racks were different (since they were designed for different bomb load)

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/Der-31_Der-32.jpg)

There was a strip between front and back "crutch", but the strip did not go along the entire metal panel - wing surface was smoother than your model:

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/I-15bis_Podveska_bomb.jpg)


AO-25 was a 122mm artillery shell modified to a bomb (yours is the top one!)

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/KL-Sep-2011079.jpg)

Dimensions:
Length  1052-1058mm
Diameter  121mm
Tailfin diameter  145mm

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/KL-Sep-2011080.jpg)

similar AO-20, modified 107mm artillery shell:

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/KL-Sep-2011083.jpg)

HTH,
KL

 

I would translate it as "bomb sway braces".
Cheers ;)
Mario

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/967841P1100032.jpg)

Hi Xan,  :)

your AII Z is too yellow and a bit too bright...?  :( 

Also the varnish makes it too shinny.  The reflections should be somehow "scaled down".  ???

Cheers,  8)
KL

Hi Xan,
the oblique light band on the tail could be not a painted mark, but an adhesive tape to seal the joint between the stabilizer and the metal plate at its root. If so, a piece of decal would be more realistic.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Xan,  :)
you should extend Light gray AE-9 all the way towards the propeller, like here:

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/1937-40/i-15bis2b.jpg)

Disc could be green, like here:
(http://thumbs.valka.cz/files/thumbs/t_i15bis_01_470.jpg)

How are the bombs progressing?

Cheers,
KL

Hello mister KL,
happy to see you visited my forum...

don't worry about the vernish, I have to change it after putting the decals...
For the color, I hope it's because the pics was taken at night. Anyway, it's Akan AII green with a little bit of white, no yellow was added...


Oh! you're right, I only look the walk around of the warbird, what a mistake!
the bombs are not progressing at all  ;)




Hi massimo, and thanks for the information. what about the color of the adhesive tape ?

Hi Xan,
Sorry, I don't know. I suppose that it's a fabric adhesive tape for repairs, it could be silver or light beige.
I've just seen a sealing with adhesive tape at http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=aV6psTA (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=aV6psTA) BW photo, of course.
Regards
Massimo

A strip of fabric glued with clear nitro-cellulose varnish. Beige, I guess...

Sit yes sir!
I did the corrections:

the nose:

(http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/239679P1100064.jpg)

(http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/352925P1100062.jpg)

and the tail:

(http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/944627P1100063.jpg)
I will put the tape later

in this pics, the adhesive tape is all around the metallic piece...

(http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/396464bande.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=396464bande.jpg)

Xan

Hello, I need your help;
I 'm going on with the I-15 bis...

I imagine the low part of the fuselage behind the engine was quite dirty with engine oil projection, but I don't find any pics...
the only one I found in the website don't show a very dirty plane...

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/1937-40/i15wreckunders.jpg)

would someone have pics showing this area ?

in those two pics , we can observ the same drty (smoke or something else) in the cowl

(http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/276394salissure1.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=276394salissure1.jpg)

(http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/407988salissures2.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=407988salissures2.jpg)

does anyone know what is it.

thanks

Xan

Hi Xan,
both photos are of the same or of very similar planes, and have similar serpentine on the landing gear covers. I think that they are oversprayed with some green or black in order to reduce the strong evidence of this livery from above.
These stripes doesn't appear on any other photos other than those.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Xan,
Massimo is right, those planes were camouflaged in field.  Interesting enough, it's Halkin-Gol, 1939!
Described in Kondratiev's book
(http://img12.nnm.ru/2/6/3/8/7/2638776f373dc9dfc355aebaca91dc85_full.jpg)


I-15bis were sprayed with unknown colour (could be light green, gray-green or gray?)
(http://lib.rus.ec/i/0/139000/pic_61.jpg)
(http://lib.rus.ec/i/0/139000/pic_62.jpg)
(http://lib.rus.ec/i/0/139000/pic_78.jpg)
(http://lib.rus.ec/i/0/139000/pic_79.jpg)

I-15bis of the 70 iap from the beginig of the tread; note the lower part of the engine disc painted in light gray AE-9??... :-\
(http://otvaga2004.narod.ru/publ_w4/x02.jpg)

thanks to both of you!
Konstantin, I knew those pics, they are all in this book:

(http://www.aeroteca.com/img/r-200-productes-25479.jpg)

have you pics of crasched I-15 bis, I would like to see if the engine with oil prjection gat the underside behind the cowl very dirty or not...

Thanks

Xan

Hi Xan,
is this photo from the same book?  Is it Halhin-Gol too?
(http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/396464bande.jpg)

Do you have better scans of these two pics?
(http://lib.rus.ec/i/0/139000/pic_61.jpg)
(http://lib.rus.ec/i/0/139000/pic_78.jpg)

Two artis's impressions of these camouflaged I-15bises from 70 iap in June 1939:
(http://img.wp.scn.ru/camms/ar/359/pics/1_27.jpg)
(http://img.wp.scn.ru/camms/ar/359/pics/1_27_b1.jpg)

I don't thing the picture were taken during the kalkhin gol war (not taken of the "batailles a?riennes" magazine), but you will tell me more:

(http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/959838dddd.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=959838dddd.jpg)

I understand better those profils seeing the pics you put, particulary the fourth one...

In my magazine, there is only the second the third and the fifth pics... (I discover now I had the fourth too)

yours are better than mine which have been cutted...

My plane seems like the crashed one...without the grey added camouflage.
I understood the grey added calouflage was added near agust. My plane was taken prisonier by the japs earlier isn't it (in may I think). The red"3" crached the 27 of april lost by Lieutnant Rybakov of the third squadron of the 70 IAP ?

Loocking at your pics, I notice all the wheels we see (in two pics) carries wheel spat (car?nages)...
Logically I would have to install them in mine too...
I have got spats in my I-15 bax, but it's not quite a good new for me, I have to change the gear struts too...
What do you think about this ?

here what my model look like actually:

(http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/355253P1100091.jpg)

(http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/457638P1100094.jpg)

(http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/141311P1100080.jpg)

Xan

Xan

I think it's looking good, Xan!

Regards,

Jason

Staged photo "Soviet Pilot Looking High in the Sky" ??? Similar photos were very popular before the war.  I-15bis fighter from 13 oae  has a "pilotka" cap as distinctive squadron marking.  White lines are fabric strips 55mm wide glued around the tailplane fairing

Where were your I-15bis photo and comment published?

I-15bis from your photos did not belong to 13 oae VVS KBF!  you can find quite a lot about this unit on the internet.  following is a well known I-15bis from 13 oae

(http://airaces.narod.ru/winter/volosvch2.jpg)

no "Pilitkas" on 13 oae planes!!!   

this is the book, and the interpretation of the pic, who seems quite questionable to me:
the top of the tail could be perfectely white, or red with a white stripe.

(http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/227230284.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=227230284.jpg)

(http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/929867315.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=929867315.jpg)

what do you think about the wheels ?

Xan

Hi xan,
grey wheels look a standard, unless the photo shows some other thing.
I've the photo of white 2 on the Polish version of the book, and I can't say about the tip: it looks as white as the number, the stripes and the red stars. Other photos of planes of the same unit would be useful.
Regards
Massimo

This is one of the few photos where it can be seen on the I-15bis, but I had already noticed on DI-6: the color of metal part looks slightly darker than on fabric. Probably it is some equivalent for metals of AII green, perhaps AE-7. Usually, the difference is not visible on photos.
Regards
Massimo

it's funny, the same posture with different photographer...

(http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/407988salissures2.jpg)

(http://lib.rus.ec/i/0/139000/pic_78.jpg)

Xan

The question is: Wheel Spats or No Wheel Spats?

I would go with Spats, because all those camouflaged I-15bises have them.  Those are definitivelly Halkin-Gol planes.  Spats were light gray AE-9, of course. ;)

IMHO, all those photos were made by same photo-correspondent at the same time (or within 15 minutes).  It looks that No 2 is from the same series - Maslov made mistake there.

Happy modelling,  :)
KL

PS.  how are AO-25 bombs progressing? ? ?   

Xan,
instead of the hypothetical No 14, make more realistic No 2!!!

Combine following two pics:

(http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/407988salissures2.jpg)
(http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/396464bande.jpg)

and you will get something like:

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/929867315sero-diki.jpg)

for camouflage spagetti I would use sero-dikaya grey, the same as the future bombs...

Number and "pilotka" cap are either red, light blue or yellow... ???

Cheers,
KL

Hi,
I  would avoid to mix photos of planes that are visually different (stripes-not stripes) and attributed to different units by the bibliography.
About the spats, Konstantin, probably you are right, it's a matter of time when the photo was taken. Probably their use was abandoned after having been installed in the factory.
Personally, I would leave the model, that is close to be completed, as it is now until it's proven that it's wrong.
Regards
Massimo

I agree with Massimo!

In this pics we see very well the stripe...is it the white 2 again ?
konstantin, can you translate please?

(http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/660056521.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=660056521.jpg)

Xan

All joints, edges of fairings and sawn places were cowered with fabric strip 55mm wide.  On this photo of the 13 oae pilot just about to sit in the plane, fringe of this strip is well visible.  According to the rules fabric strip was supposed to be painted, but on I-15bis this wasn't done usually.

With fringe Maslov is saying following:  edges of this strip were cut with spec scissors so that they were zigzag  ;)

Is it "white 2" - I don't know, probably it is, Maslov attributes it to 13 oae, the same unit as the profile you posted.  Even the pilot could be the same as the one on your previous photo.  BTW how do you know Number 2 is white?

That is too bad - those camouflaged planes would make more attractive models... 8)

Cheers,
KL

Nice profile:

(http://crimso.msk.ru/Images6/AM/AM07-4/6-3.jpg)

Correct colours, wheel spats, bomb racks, etc.
note that it doesn't have those fabric strips around the tail fairing....  :o

Oh, indeed, it's a nice profil!
but I  don't trust very much in profils... does the drawer have a photograph or do one copy the other profil?

both have the same 14 code, and both have metal stripe around the cowl in natural color...
the difference are in the wheels and the adh?sive stripe...

about the matel stripe. I notices that in most of the pics the metal band are paintedin green; Almost only prototypes have metal natural, wich is quite logical. metal natural color are more beautiful , but I decided to paint them in green  :(

about the white 2, it can be perfectly yellow..

Xan

I don't trust profile artists either. ;)

Why are you making a plane that exists only in profiles? ???

Because Iwanted to do a plane during the Halhin-gol war, and I had not a pic showing a I-152, just the crashed one... but in my book, the pic have been cutted and the tail with the code don't appear...
I wanted to do a plane painted in AE-9 and AII alu paints...
(it's the first time I make a model without pic documentation...)

Xan

Xan,

two pics that may create more work  :-\

Wheel Spats
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/Obtekateli.jpg)

Wing Torches:
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/I-15bis_fakelyi.jpg)

Panel B in Maslov's book is for I-153.  I-15bis had different torches and different Panel B  :o
You were the first who pointed on this error...

Cheers,
KL

Hi Konstantin, hi Xan,
do the torches come out from small doors that open and close after they have been out?
Regards
Massimo

I think it's interesting how the topsides colour overlaps the leading edge of the lower wing.  I wonder if this were standard.

Regards,

Jason

two wonderfull documents! but it's too late...

For the first one I will not change the model form, even if it's bad... it's a shame I could represent the rivets too...

The second pic gives a lot of informations:
- the ring to lock the plane is visible
- the torches are very well exposed
- the top line of green and alu colors in the wing (I will surely correct it on mine)
- more inportant I can see the metal piece was under the covering, so my interpretation is wrong; all the wing is painted in AII alu

however, in this one the colot is very different, and the panel seems to be out of the covering isn't it?

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/1937-40/i15wreckunders.jpg)

Xan

This is interesting - these panels existed on many VVS aircraft which had fabric-covered wings. Last night I was trying to understand the same thing about the same kind of panels on the I-16 type 29. Drawings seem to show these as being outside the fabric covering, not under it (outside makes more sense where these panels are meant to protect the wing from the exhaust of RS-82 rockets), but I'm not so sure now. I can find only one photo of the underside of a type 29 wing (right wing only); it seems to show the rocket location protection panel as being outside the fabric, and the panel farther out on the wing which includes the same torches as the I-15bis being under the fabric, but it's hard to be sure.

John

Hi,
the red star under the wing of the image with the torches  extracted hasn't the same position and type of the standard ones, as those seen on the wing-up plane. Is the date of the photo known? The plane could have been repainted.
Regards
Massimo

Hi John,
this is likely, probably the panels for the rockets were an addition on already built planes.
Regards
Massimo

Hello ,
I started with the collimator.

I have this pic

(http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/978774col.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=978774col.jpg)

But I have nothing for the front part...
does someone have pic of it?

I don't know how is done this part showed by the arrow...

(http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/714105colimateur.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=714105colimateur.jpg)

Xan

Torches on I-15bis and I-153 were different:  on I-15bis torches were most likely fixed, on I-153 torches were retractable (same as landing gear)  

I-15bis manual doesn't describe torches, only the metal panel.  The panel is described as a sheet of dur-aluminium 0.5mm thick attached to the underside of the wing.  A layer of asbestos was sandwiched between the panel and the wing. No drawings of the panel and installation.

Following photo shows the metal panel as uneven, dented surface.  Metal was clearly over the fabric (to protect fabric from high temperature).  Panel was fixed (not detachable) and its edges were covered with fabric tape (see posts above)  ;)  

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/I-15bis_fakelyi.jpg)

Photo was taken during the Winter War.

For reference, RETRACTABLE TORCHES INSTALLED ON I-153s

Technical manual mentions them in the introduction among other improvements (like retractable landing gear) over previous I-15.
Torches are included in elecrical equipment since there was a swich to extend them, then to fire one or both etc.  There is a drawing (more details than Maslov's)

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/FakeloderzhateliNG-12.jpg)

This photo shows extended torches.  white rectangles are doors (covers)

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/0_77e5_c14244ed_orig-1.jpg)

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/0_77e5_c14244ed_orig.jpg)

Closed doors are visible here too

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/20204.jpg)

Thank you Konstantin, this is clear now.

Hi Xan,
could you post better scans of the I-15bis with the stripes on them, please? I'm working on a gallery on I-15bis just now.

Regards
Massimo

I will try this evenig...
konstantin nice pic of a FAB-50!
Xan

Hi Xan,

(http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/355970P1100165.jpg)

(http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/472121P1100164.jpg)

Maybe it's me only, or my poorly calibrated monitor, but ... your weathering is seriously "overdone" - the engine would seaze if that much oil leaked!  It looks your plane landed in mustard?  :o

Still, it was an interesting build + a good representation of colours and standard scheme... and it's not too late to correct things.

Cheers,  :)
KL

for the oil I like it like that...

those pics are taken at night.. greens get lighter and yellow too flashy...

Xan

Hi Xan,
I agree with Konstantin that the weathering is exaggerated and the mud looks too yellow. I would add that the mud should be on the wheel and the spat should be dirty only in its lower part behind the well, not on its sides and front. The wing shouldn't be dirty with mood at all because of the spats protecting it. Eventually, the tail could have some traces.
I hope that you can improve this .
Regards
Massimo

All right, you're right,
the spats protect the plane of mud projection , it's true.
The mud have not to be in the outside of the spets it's true
the mud is too yellow , true again
even more, in the mongolian steppe in spring, there is no mud...
but I wanted to test a knew technic to represent mud so I did it, and like it  ;)
anyway, the diorama who will represente the mongolian steppe (look the pic below) will hide a part od the spat so...

(http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/466455mn71324.jpg)

then I will see if I have to correct
thank you anyway for your observations

Xan

Xan

Hi Xan,
that grass is really good-looking. How is it made?
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
I Found who was the photographer who took those photos - M.S. Bernshtein

(http://rgakfd.altsoft.spb.ru/getImage.do?object=1802946325&original=1)
http://rgakfd.altsoft.spb.ru/showObject.do?object=1802942852

will not help for your gallery, but at least you know who has copyrights.

Thank you
Massimo

Thanks Konstantin.
Massimo the grass have been bought here:
http://www.phpshopxml.com/quakit.shop/CID/6e0f1f39f552b0b8ca4b36d90ae0d9eb/function/itemSearchResultPageDisplay/shopSearchType/familySubFamilyCode/shopSearchData/MINI|MINTAPI (http://www.phpshopxml.com/quakit.shop/CID/6e0f1f39f552b0b8ca4b36d90ae0d9eb/function/itemSearchResultPageDisplay/shopSearchType/familySubFamilyCode/shopSearchData/MINI|MINTAPI)
there is a plenty of grass kind.
quite expensive but very effective.

I put some day taken pics.
Konstantin you are surely right about the green a little bit too light.
Next time, I will du the AII green darker...

(http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/813757P1000036.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=813757P1000036.jpg)

(http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/458563P1000037.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=458563P1000037.jpg)

(http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/915162P1000040.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=915162P1000040.jpg)
Aie , de ce cot? la jointure du pare brise n'est pas terrible le pare brise est celui d'un I-16...

(http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/470540P1000047.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=470540P1000047.jpg)

Just tell everyone the I-16 windscreen is a "field modification"! ;)

John

Hi Xan,
if you want to use this windshield to replace that of the  I-15bis, you would be better to shorten and made oblique its rear end.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Xan,
good news and bad news!!!

Good news:  I found photo of your I-15bis "No 14 with pilotka"!!!  one after which all those profiles were drawn!!!

(http://scalemodels.ru/images/2010/02/1266234808_9c6ae5adc1dc.jpg)

Bad news:  It wasn't a Halhin-Gol plane, it did not belong to 70 iap and it did not have spats when photo was taken.  :(
This I-15bis belonged to 71 iap VVS KBF, it was a navy plane and the photo was taken in autumn 1941.

there is also a pre-war photo of "red 14" (no pilotka!)
(http://crimso.msk.ru/Images6/MA/MA93-1/21-1.jpg)

Combine them and you will get your "Red 14 with pilotka"!  How it ended at Halhin -gol is unknown.  Blame profile artists...  :-X

Cheers,
KL

Nice pictures, Konstantin.  So "pilotka" in Russian means "cap", as in fin/rudder cap, or something else?

Regards,

Jason

Wikipedia says "Side cap":  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Side_cap

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a4/Bustinaurss.jpg/320px-Bustinaurss.jpg)

KL

Thank you!  I may have to get me one of those.  I could go dressed as a frontovik to a Halloween party - although I doubt that anyone would realise that I were dressed as an RKKA soldier.  They'd probably guess I were a German soldier.  After all, we all know that WWII was fought between the Americans, the British, the Germans, the Japanese, and the Italians - am I forgetting anyone?  Of course, the Hungarians, Finns, and Romanians!

Regards,

Jason

Hi all
I had already seen that photo, but despite the resemblance it don't look the same of the profile. The digits are different, and there are not white lines. In my idea, there is a thin black line under the red cap.
The second photo is different, too. I suppose that there were at least twenty I-15bis numbered 14 distributed in many units.
Regards
Massimo

Massimo,
You may suppose that there were at least twenty I-15bis numbered 13, but there isn?t a single profile of I-15bis with No 13.  Or, twenty I-15bis numbered 15 ? no profiles whatsoever!!!

14 in different forms is the most common among profiles.  This plane may also influenced artists
(http://www.army.lv/photos/2219.jpg)
It clearly represents the plane from the photo posted before.

Xan?s number 14 is extremely popular among profile artists:   

(http://crimso.msk.ru/Images6/AV/AV00-2/o4-4.jpg)
(http://crimso.msk.ru/Images6/MM/MM-99/0570-01-1-4.jpg)
(http://crimso.msk.ru/Images6/AM/AM07-4/6-3.jpg)
(http://crimso.msk.ru/Images6/AK/AK1996-11/o2-4.jpg)

It?s strange that photo/photos of this particular plane are not available anywhere???  Have you seen photo of the "Red 14 with pilotka"?
KL

Hi Konstantin,
before stating that a photo don't exist, one should be reasonably sure to have seen all the photos ever published. Or maybe could ask the artist what were his sources, and if he answers as an old friend of us... well, one can seriously think that the profile is wrong.
Regards
Massimo

Hello Konstantin,
first of all thank you for the research work you take.
Well, as Massimo, I don't think this "white 14" is the same that mine
(honestly, even if I thought it was, I wouldn't change anything, too late)

about the profils, I don't doubt that one profil, right or wrong was popied x time (I often see this phenomen with french planes). The question is witch reference has the first profil drawer...

Anyway as I told you before, it's the first time I work without plane pics. My goal was to do I-15 painted as they were before WWII with AII alu and AE-9...

If there is an important pic for me, it's that one:

(http://otvaga2004.narod.ru/publ_w4/x02.jpg)

in mine magazine, the tail didn't appear, so I had not the code number; otherwise I would have done the "red 3" surely.
So was this I-15 bis I done the D. Gusarov's one or not? However, my model is quite representative of an I-15 bis in the begining of Kalkin gol war.
Do you agree with me?

in the same kind of idea, I will represent the plane with adhesiv tape in the tail, because it can also be representativ of the I-15bis in this period...

In my way to see modeling, we can make choice with insured things, but it have always to make sens and those choices have to be the fruit of an investigation...
hope you agree with me ...

Xan

correct location of "Xan's panel B" on I-15bis

(http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/5817/13354011.71c/0_7d043_d83ff351_L)

Torches are broken off, part of the red star painted on fabric has been cut out by souvenir hunters.
KL

Hi Konstantin,
another wonderful pic! thank you...
The metal panel is in the same place than in this pic below:

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/1937-40/i15wreckunders.jpg)

We will know for a next I-15 bis !

Xan

Hi, every body.
Hey mister KL, I did the bombs (well two of them!)

Here's a FAB-50 and an AO-25:

 (http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/982150P1000129.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=982150P1000129.jpg)

it's not perfect, but painted under the plane it will be find I hope.

Xan

Not bad, AO-25 is probably very small.

A suggestion:
First ring is too thick - actually there wasn't a ring; only a step.  AO-25 was made from rejected artillery shells.  "Nose" of the bomb should look like a projectile.

For painting - first coat was light blue, second coat was gray-green (1950es standard, but probably practiced earlier).

Happy modeling,
KL
 

I totally agree with you...

The AO-25 repects the numbers you given me. Perhaps the FAB-50 is undersized ?

What do you mean? I took this pic in reference to do the noise...
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/20204.jpg)


Ok it's the green you talked about?

Bombs were painted in anticorosive gray colour.  Fragmental bombs had 15mm wide blue line around the cyllinrical part of the body.

I thought they were metallic color as this FAB-100:

(http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/873382image.jpg)

have you any example of this green gray ?

Xan

Size of your AO-25 is OK.  I meant it's small for more/better details.  :)


Front half of the bomb should look like an artillery shell (a big bullet  ;)), your (1st, thick) ring obscures its shape.


FAB-100 was painted metallic silver at the museum, it's not its original colour.

"Gray-green (sero-dikaya)" and "1st coat blue" are visible here:

(http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/4800/grenoble.29/0_3d132_e9ecd85d_XL.jpg)

(http://img.nr2.ru/pict/arts1/21/00/210024.jpg)

thank you again mister K!
Xan

Here are the bombs...

(http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/678749P1000149.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=678749P1000149.jpg)

(http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/543522P1000153.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=543522P1000153.jpg)

I 'm quite satisfated because the resukt is quite close to what I was loocking for:

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/File4508.jpg)

(http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/557522P1000155.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=557522P1000155.jpg)

In the ther side , the bombs will lay on the ground with a mecanic mounting them...

Xan

Well done, Xan ! I really like it.

Pascal

Hi Xan,
well done. I'm happy to see your good model ready.
I am pleased for the beautifully painted officer too.
Regards
Massimo

Excellent I-15bis, Xan!  Nice diorama.

Regards,

Jason

Really looks great! Now you can start molding these bombs in resin, and getting rich by selling them!  ;)

John