Sovietwarplanes

Hello everybody,
Afriend of pascal and mine want to do a Eduard I-16 type 17.
He doen't know much about VVS aircraft but he is a very serius modelers.
I indicated him of course this forum and indicated him the different opinions about VVS colours...
http://www.master194.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=61933&p=662166#p662166 (http://www.master194.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=61933&p=662166#p662166)

He chooses this decoration:

(http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww263/badger_150/I%2016/Image2.jpg)

I told him I didn't think this camouflage was real and try to know much about this plane.

it's the plane of zhujkov of the 191IAP in Leningrad in summer of 1941.

Pascal finds some pics of this plane:

(http://nsm05.casimages.com/img/2011/06/07//110607112515534318286241.jpg)
this pic show us a very tired plane (the paint of the fuselage can be as tires as is the cowl one)
it's true that a diference of colour can be observ ahead the cockpit.
but it doesn't meen at all in my mind that there are two differents colours.
It can be the same colour tired or probably gasoline....

(http://nsm05.casimages.com/img/2011/06/08//110608110440534318287063.jpg) (http://www.casimages.com)
in this pics we see the white top of the tal , and a number but it can be can anyone

(http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/522800P1080195.jpg)

(http://nsm05.casimages.com/img/2011/06/08//110608110440534318287064.jpg) (http://www.casimages.com)
this is again zhujkov and behin his plane, but it's hard to know if it's the same plane...
if it is, we can see the fuselage with one colour.

of cours EP saw in that planes a two tone green camouflage:
(http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Markings/I16/i16-type17-red8.gif)
and I think Eduard was influenced by this interpretation


To my opinion the plane is clearly paint in AIIz green (it can be other thing) and the paint is tired.

Do you know more pics of this plane ?
what is your opinion?

thinks

Xan



well, in the first pics it's real that there is a difference of colour

Hi Xan,
I think that it's really in two colors, but it's black over the base green. I don't think that the dark color is so extended on the plane how shown by those drawings.
Note the dark brush strokes on the landing gear doors.
Regards
Massimo

this plane wasn't repainted in black -green scheme to comply with June 1941 directive!  We know this because it still has red stars on wing tops and lecks stars on the tailfin.
The plane has pre-war markings and probably original, factory applied, colours.

Factory scheme for Type 17 was AII "Protective" green upper surfaces and gray undersides.

I agree with Xan, plane is badly weathered.  Note how the paint is chipped from the propeller and engine cowling - probably a rocky airfield, maybe far north?

KL 

Hi Konstantin and Xan,
the front of the blades of prewar planes should be natural metal. If it is black, even if chipped, it is surely painted.
Besides, oval blotches of black are visible between the exhaust pipes. This is not a standard camouflage, it's simply a green plane that was blotched with some black.
Regards
Massimo

OK!

Pilot's name is Grigoriy Sergeyevich Zhuikov (not to be confused with the Marshal of the Soviet Union Georgy Konstantinovich Zhukov!).

During the Winter War (1939-40) Zhuikov was with the 7th IAP.

At the time of German attack (June 1941) Zhuikov was with the 191st IAP as a squadron commander.  191st IAP defended Leningrad and Zhuikov scored 7 victories in September 1941 flying on I-16 fighters.

From Aug 1942 to Sept 1943 with 9th IAP on Hurricanes...

Your photos were taken in Sept 1941 during the defence of Leningrad:

(http://airaces.narod.ru/all9/zhyikov6.jpg)

Source:  http://airaces.narod.ru/all9/zhyikov.htm

(http://airaces.narod.ru/all9/zhyikov2.jpg)

АвиаМастер 2004-07
(http://crimso.msk.ru/Images6/AM/AM04-7/47-1.jpg)

Cheers,
KL

But Massimo why would the mechanic or the pilot put black paint if it was not the official rule? just for the pleasure of defy the NKVD?
they new how easy  it was to be a traitor to socialism motherland, don't you think ?
I agree a lot with konstantin when he says that personal initiativ was not welcome in those time.
Have we other exemples of black colored AIIz I-16 in this period ?
pascal tolds me the cowl could be black cause it's very dark. I'm not sure at all...
(however, thinks a lot for give your opinion of course ;))

Xan

Oh kontantin great! the profile are just like I imagine the plane!!!
could the diference of colours have been made by gasoline ?

Eduard spoke about 17 victorys!

Xan

Xan,
it's very simple:  on the first day of war, June 23 1941, it was ordered to camouflage planes.  The order specified following:

- to add black blotches on planes that were already painted in "Protective" green
- to repaint stars on upper wing surfaces!!!
- to add stars on tailfins

If you see stars on wing tops, the plane is still painted in pre-war scheme (solid green).  Why - we can only guess; the order wasn't received, they didn't have time to repaint planes, no paint.  Pilawskii would make up a good story there   ;D

Cheers,
KL

Zhuikov survived the war and his total was 13 individual victories + 4 group victories.
New research by M. Bikov gives 10+0 victories.

Cheers,
KL

Hi Xan and Konstantin,
please, have a look here and see how black mottlings were rare.
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/1941-43rep/1941-43repainted.html (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/1941-43rep/1941-43repainted.html)
Gasoline stripes should be only under the fuel tanks, and should go in vertical when the plane lies on the ground.
It would be interesting to know if the photo with the star on the wings is contemporary to the other ones and if it is of the same plane. However, there are other examples of planes that preserved the red stars on the camouflage, at least a MiG-3 and a Pe-8.
Regards
Massimo

Hi,
an addition: if one wants, he can always make the model before it was mottled, as it appeared before the war.
Regards
Massimo

Photo interpretation again.... :-[

What to do when you are limited with only two photos?

(http://nsm05.casimages.com/img/2011/06/07//110607112515534318286241.jpg)

(http://airaces.narod.ru/all9/zhyikov6.jpg)

-  Some researchers prefer artistic license and to hide behind supposedly unregulated Soviet industry and chaos on frontline units.
-  Others think that it is better to rely on documents and other evidence.

If Zhuikov's I-16 was camouflaged with black blotches, chances that wing top stars were repainted would be over 95%.  Chances are also high, over 90%, that it would have a tailfin star  ;)

Cheers,
KL

Some good examples of June 1941 directive fullfiled in the field (in units):

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/1941-43rep/i-16-13.jpg)

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/1941-43rep/i-16_28.jpg)

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/1941-43rep/i16cam.jpg)

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/1941-43rep/i16spinstar.jpg)

OK konstantin , I agree with you, but the argument of Massimo is heavy: we are not sure at all that the plane with the stars on the wongs is the same plane than the others pics.
Another thing: the "8" code.
two posibility:
- there is an other pic where the 8 code clearly appears
- the base was the second pic and, really, it can be any number... someone choose the "8" and all the profiles repeat the same thing (like it often happens with the profiles...)

I'm afraid we are in the second case...

Xan

Hi Xan,  :)

There are only two options:

1. Plane was camouflaged with black fields as per June 1941 directive
2. Plane was still in pre-war scheme (solid green)

For case 1:  no stars on wing tops and additional star at the tail
For case 2: stars on wing tops and no stars on tailfin.

Pilawskii's Green-Dark Green is not an option. Especially not that diffused "tiger" scheme!

Cheers,
KL

Xan!   >:(

This is HSU Mihail Petrovich Zhukov, 158th IAP!!!!  :o

(http://nsm05.casimages.com/img/2011/06/08//110608110440534318287064.jpg)

It's a different plane and a different pilot!!!  Time and Location are OK:  Leningrad 1941.

Cheers,  :)
KL  

Ok sorry,
in the Lela presse book they confounded the two pilots as I do (however, Pascal informed me  ::))
so , in witch pic can you see the wings star ?

Xan

Hi Xan and Konstantin,
there is a third possibility: the plane was roughly maculated with black on the originl livery, having only a brush, a can of black (perhaps not even good for metal, as we see from the chipping on the propeller) and one or two hours to made all the work.
I have not other photos of I-16s with such treatment, but there are many photos of SB, Il-4 and I-153 roughly camouflaged in such ways. Even a photo of a 'zebra' MiG-3.
Regards
Massimo

In 158 IAP picture...

Consider following 158th IAP I-16 photos:

(http://airaces.narod.ru/all6/zhukv_m3.jpg)

(http://i16fighter.ru/usage/ww2beg/158iap.jpg)

(http://airaces.narod.ru/all11/harit_p8.jpg)

(http://airaces.narod.ru/all11/fiestgss.jpg)

Can you get an idea?

Cheers,  :)
KL


PS:  no problem, I will not use bold fontface anymore... Sorry  :(

I think that Massimo has right, the cowling has a two-tone camouflage and so it can't be a uniform green plane.

Now, I agree with Massimo too - Plane is in standard, field applied black-green scheme. It probably has a red star in front of No 8 (or 9????).

Cheers,
KL 

I would say that 158th IAP photos show well how repainting was done:

Two photos taken in summer 1941  - Pilots are wearing shirts, planes are still in pre-war solid green scheme and red stars are in pre-war positions

(http://airaces.narod.ru/all6/zhukv_m3.jpg)

(http://i16fighter.ru/usage/ww2beg/158iap.jpg)

Following photos were taken in autumn 1941  - Pilots are wearing leather coats and planes are camouflaged with black fields.  Markings (red stars) are changed to comply with June order:

(http://airaces.narod.ru/all11/harit_p8.jpg)

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/1941-43rep/i-16-13.jpg)

(http://airaces.narod.ru/all11/fiestgss.jpg)


Cheers,  :)
KL

But, but... star in 1st pic is white and 3rd one yellow!!!
No, seriously, that's what b&w pix convincingly demonstrate!
 ;D :o ::)
Za rodinu!
Mario

Hi all,
Hi Mario, yellow stars... what an idea for a profile! Thanks for the discovery! ;D
Seriously speaking; Konstantin, you've done an excellent job by collecting all those related photos.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Mario, Massimo and Xan!   :)

I tried to avoid interpretation and rely on what is clearly visible, but.... ::)

IMHO, Zhuikov's plane must have been very, very, very similar to Haritonov's plane.  Same period (late summer/September 1941) and same theatre (defence of Leningrad).

Haritonov's I-16, 158th IAP:

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/1941-43rep/i-16-13.jpg)

Zhuikov's I-16, 191st IAP:

(http://nsm05.casimages.com/img/2011/06/07//110607112515534318286241.jpg)

Haritonov's I-16 complies with June camouflage order; there is absolutely no reason to doubt that Zhuikov's I-16 was camouflaged the same way.

In other words:  there were neither ?tigers? nor "zebras".  Planes were camouflaged with black fields because there was an order to do it.  I also doubt that many planes were camouflaged by splashing black paint over them... ;)

If  I were Mr. Badger, I would make Haritonov?s I-16.  It?s better documented.   :D

Cheers,
KL

Hi Konstantin,
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/mig3/baikovr.jpg)
no tigers and zebras, you say?
Regards
Massimo

One question regarding Haritonov?s "white 13",I know it?s hard to tell but,is it a Type 24 or Type 29? Greetings.

Martin

Probably Type 24.  Regiment was formed in June 1940, too early for Type 29.

Saludos,
KL

Konstantin and Mario, perhaps you're missing the point about unusual schemes - they're interesting because they're unusual.  I don't know if you two do much aeroplane modelling; I do a little, and I'm always looking for schemes that are out of the ordinary.  For example, I have a very late war FW-190F-8 painted in overall 83 RLM Green topsides.  I chose it because it was so strange.  We shouldn't ignore strange examples, if there is some sort of documentary evidence, especially photographic evidence to go on (I know you think using photographs only is dangerous, Mario, but sometimes it's all we have to go on).  It's exactly those strangely-marked aeroplanes that make such interesting models.  You mention templates, which is fine - however, I'd like for you to reconstruct a black/green template that was consistently applied to Shturmoviks during 1941-43; I wish there were one.  It would certainly make my model building easier.

Regards,

Jason

Thanks a lot Konstantin.

Totally agree with you Jason,planes in unusual markings or modifications are very interesting and can be represented by very attractive models.

Greetings

Martin

Perhaps should I open a new post about I-16 zhujkov plane in summer 1941 ? (I'm joking ;))

Hi Xan,
I've splitted the topic. Now you're free to continue on this plane instead of being submerged by philosophy.
Regards
Massimo :)

I prefer word historiography instead of philosophy.  ;)
There are some subtle differences between the two words, especially in the context of this tread.

Cheers,
KL  8)