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Print Page - Pe-2 with polichromatic camo in July 1941

Sovietwarplanes

Great Patriotic War Aviation => Petlyakovs => Topic started by: Massimo Tessitori on July 13, 2011, 10:26:15 PM



Title: Pe-2 with polichromatic camo in July 1941
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on July 13, 2011, 10:26:15 PM
Hi,
now I'm working hard on twins and, thanks to the help of AR, I've collected many photos of Peshkas with a very interesting camo, probably belonging all to the same unit, and made some color sketches.

http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/pe2/pe2-earlycamo24/pe2-earlycamo24.htm (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/pe2/pe2-earlycamo24/pe2-earlycamo24.htm)

Any suggestions?

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Pe-2 with polichromatic camo in July 1941
Post by: learstang on July 14, 2011, 01:05:23 AM
No suggestions, but interesting work, Massimo!  I'd never seen Peshkas painted in that kind of camouflage before.  It would look good on a Shturmovik, if only I could find some photographs.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Pe-2 with polichromatic camo in July 1941
Post by: KL on July 14, 2011, 01:18:51 AM
Interesting, almost looks like winter camouflage;   ::) I guess July 1941 is confirmed.

Those planes are factory painted in solid green A-19f and light blue A-18f undersides.  Obviously, June camouflage order did reach this unit and black camouflage was applied together with stars on tailplates.  The rest is a mystery!!!  ???
Have you considered A-18f light blue for the lightest colour?  Why gray AE-9?  On SB bombers AE-9 disappeared in summer 1940...  IMHO this is a field applied black-green scheme further modified with light blue on upper surfaces (isn't that exotic!)
I would not even mention AII nitro paints - those were used for fabric only.

Cheers,
KL


Title: Re: Pe-2 with polichromatic camo in July 1941
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on July 14, 2011, 07:35:15 AM
Hi Jason and Konstantin,
Quote
I guess July 1941 is confirmed
yes, absolutely, 21.7.41 is written behind one of the photos.

Quote
Have you considered A-18f light blue for the lightest colour?  Why gray AE-9?  On SB bombers AE-9 disappeared in summer 1940...  IMHO this is a field applied black-green scheme further modified with light blue on upper surfaces (isn't that exotic!)
No, if you see a flying plane from above, light grey can mask it against underlying clouds; light blue would immediately reveal it. Besides it's even more visible than light grey on the grassy ground. Eventually one could imagine some other colors as cream and tobacco brown, but I preferred to choose easily available colors.
The camo is applied accurately, most of the outlines are preserved between various planes, but colors are exchanged. Perhaps they even used wide masks of paper, or at least a drawn template.
Quote
I'd never seen Peshkas painted in that kind of camouflage before.  It would look good on a Shturmovik, if only I could find some photographs.
Nothing similar till now, sorry, if you don't consider the plane restored in Praha museum.

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Pe-2 with polichromatic camo in July 1941
Post by: KL on July 14, 2011, 08:24:48 PM
Massimo,
Same Pe-2 "White 24" camouflage has already been ?researched? by E. Pilawskii at  http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Research/Petlyakov/Pe-2/Camouflage/Manchuria/index.php

(http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Research/Petlyakov/Pe-2/Camouflage/Manchuria/pe2-white24-3col.jpg)

(http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Research/Petlyakov/Pe-2/Camouflage/Manchuria/i153-m62-early-red29.jpg)

Pilawskii also thinks that light areas on Pe-2 were light gray AE-9.   He explains this as Manchurian Influence!  As most of his research this is only a wild guess and most likely a total miss.

This Pe-2 doesn?t have anything in common with 1939 I-153.  I-153 was factory painted in accordance with 1937 rules and Pe-2 in accordance with May 1940 rules.

?   overall gray I-153 was overpainted with green fields
?   green top on Pe-2 was supposedly overpainted with gray fields

The result may look similar on b/w photos, but you should realize that painters did two opposite things ? in first case they applied green and in the second they covered green!  There was no Manchurian influence and it has to be something else.   Instead of guessing what is that something else, apply what you know for sure:

Those planes are factory painted in solid green A-19f and light blue A-18f undersides.  Obviously, June camouflage order did reach this unit and black camouflage was applied together with stars on tailplates.

Then, test different options for the lightest colour: light blue A-18f, light gray AE-9, (bright) olive green 4BO, maybe tan brown AMT-1 or its Army eqivalents.

BTW, blue on your profiles is way too dark for A-18f.  It looks like AMT-7 which appeared later.

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/pe2/pe2-earlycamo24/pe2template4.jpg)

Cheers,
KL


Title: Re: Pe-2 with polichromatic camo in July 1941
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on July 15, 2011, 07:12:32 AM
Hi Konstantin,
thank you for your comments.
I was aware that EP has already done a page on this, I made my one after having asked to AR and having received from him an unexpected lot of images.
I agree that all considerations on a Manchurian influence are scarcely relevant. Besides, I don't agree with him about the number of colors: I see at least four on uppersurfaces.
After having started with a cream color, I preferred light grey for the already explained reasons, and prefer not to produce drawings with alternative explanations. Of course it's clear that one is free to give a different interpretation of bw photos. One could base on experimental camos of 1940 that were all made with ground colors, but I think that they shouldn't have been available in the units; besides, the photos show clearly that all that light color don't fit with a grassy ground, even if it was some beige or light green. Light blue, if seen from above, would have been a suicide.
Besides I'm reasonably sure that all the other colors were painted over green in the same time: they have the same contours, but are exchanged. This would be very unlikely if one paints black first, then add other colors.
I'll check for the light blue, however it's much lighter than the AMT-7 that I have already produced in chips and other works.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Pe-2 with polichromatic camo in July 1941
Post by: KL on July 15, 2011, 07:04:34 PM
Hi Massimo,  :)

Consider following:
?   Light gray AE-9 had some bluish tinge.  The tinge was more or less visible depending on lighting.
?   A-18f was the lightest of the three blue colours used in 1941.  Much lighter then AMT-7 and lighter then AII Light Blue.  Maslov somewhere quotes original document which describes A-18f as ?blue like clouds?. In reality A-18f was light blue-gray.

In short, AE-9 and A-18f were tonally very close and on b/w photos they would look identical.

Then consider this:
June camouflage order was very specific about gray planes!  Gray upper surfaces had to be repainted in green-black scheme.  Applying gray over green-black scheme would be an action against the order. On the other hand, order didn?t say anything about light blue-gray on top surfaces? ;)


The question is why they needed this light colour on top of black-green.  Maybe you are right ? those could be high altitude planes which flew above the clouds. In that case light gray-blue or light blue-gray wouldn?t make any difference.

Personally, I like to keep things simple and logical.  Two green colours don?t make sense to me.  We have already been there: dark green-green scheme didn?t exist and those planes previously interpreted as dark green-green were actually green-black.  Same here, what you see as darker green is most likely black.

Cheers,
KL


Title: Re: Pe-2 with polichromatic camo in July 1941
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on July 15, 2011, 09:40:04 PM
Hi Konstantin,
Quote
Personally, I like to keep things simple and logical.  Two green colours don?t make sense to me.  We have already been there: dark green-green scheme didn?t exist and those planes previously interpreted as dark green-green were actually green-black.  Same here, what you see as darker green is most likely black.
Examining all the photos, I am convinced that there are at least four colors on the uppersurfaces. I've choosen dark green because it's the more traditional choice and because a 3B dark green existed , but it could be any other dark color, including red brown or dark grey.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Pe-2 with polichromatic camo in July 1941
Post by: KL on July 15, 2011, 10:02:32 PM
Examining all the photos, I am convinced that there are at least four colors on the uppersurfaces.

IMHO, only two on this one and they should be black and green.  True, nose could be different???. 

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/pe2/pe2-earlycamo24/pe2-csc.jpg)

what is your interpretation in this case?

Regards,
KL


Title: Re: Pe-2 with polichromatic camo in July 1941
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on July 16, 2011, 07:13:32 AM
Hi Konstantin,
on this case I think to see, from nose to tail:
green-black-grey-black-grey-green-grey.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Pe-2 with polichromatic camo in July 1941
Post by: KL on July 16, 2011, 07:27:32 AM
As seen on e-bay:

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Fence%20airfield/07d2_1.jpg)
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Fence%20airfield/1424_1.jpg)
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Fence%20airfield/0bda_1.jpg)
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Fence%20airfield/2fd6_1.jpg)

Cheers,
KL


Title: Re: Pe-2 with polichromatic camo in July 1941
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on July 16, 2011, 09:44:49 AM
Thank you Konstantin,
good images, perhaps I'll understand better how the leftwingroot is painted. It was missing on other photos.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Pe-2 with polichromatic camo in July 1941
Post by: Troy Smith on July 16, 2011, 08:17:03 PM
 I am just making an observation.

These Pe-2s have similar tonal contrasts and patterns to the experimental 1940 schemes, given that The I-16 is on a cloudy day, the Pe-2 in direct light.     

here http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=668.0

(http://img369.imageshack.us/img369/9811/fi16aiu3.jpg)

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/pe2/pe2-earlycamo24/pe2-2cs24.jpg)

It is fascinating that several photos of different planes exist, but all are wrecks in German hands, from the summer, judging by the bright light and vegetation.  Is there any more information on the photos sources?  (eg from one German unit?)

Perhaps test unit with documents lost in the chaos of 1941?   

T




Title: Re: Pe-2 with polichromatic camo in July 1941
Post by: KL on July 16, 2011, 08:52:01 PM
Following photo tells part of the story!!!

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Fence%20airfield/0bda_1.jpg)

Note that the lighter part of the tailplate is the same colour  as ruder structure (normally under the fabric).  Parts of these planes were primed only!!!  tailplate on this plane was yellow and black!  It is possible that planes were assembled and painted in field... :o

for primer colour check this wreck shot down in June 29th of 1941

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2566/3842644455_d56c1118b5_o.jpg)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/saminkuvat/3842644455/

Massimo, you can also see on this photo how light and gray was A-18f.

Cheers,
KL  :) 


Title: Re: Pe-2 with polichromatic camo in July 1941
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on July 16, 2011, 11:20:11 PM
Hi Konstantin,
you are joking, of course. Zinc chromate yellow ins't a camo color nor in air, nor on the ground. I don't see doubts that the colors were overpainted to the green.
On the Finnish wreck, the border between grey-blue and yellow is chipped, not as we see on the wartime photo.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Pe-2 with polichromatic camo in July 1941
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on July 17, 2011, 06:23:53 AM
Quote
I am just making an observation.

These Pe-2s have similar tonal contrasts and patterns to the experimental 1940 schemes, given that The I-16 is on a cloudy day, the Pe-2 in direct light.   
   
Hi Troy,
this is a possibility, of course. There is resemblance between this camo and the experimentals of 1940, at least on bw photos.
But, if you see the photos of the experiments of 1940, the light camo colors are clearly darker than the light blue of the undersurfaces.
Besides, any color so light to resemble AE-9 on bw photos, utilized in such abundance, would be poorly camouflaging on the ground.
I suppose that this unit could had SB in its inventory till few months before, so the availability of AE-9 is likely, and I preferred to suggest colors that were easily available.
Regards
Massimo



Title: Re: Pe-2 with polichromatic camo in July 1941
Post by: KL on July 17, 2011, 08:56:30 AM
you are joking, of course. Zinc chromate yellow ins't a camo color nor in air, nor on the ground. I don't see doubts that the colors were overpainted to the green.

No, I am not joking.  that is clearly visible, check the photo:  ruder structure (normaly only primed with ALG-1) is the same colur as tail plate and end of fuselage.  If you don't like yellow primer you may go with yellow-green, like Pilawskii on his reconstruction in Norwey.
Yellow isn't bad in summer in steppa; it's a sea of dry grass.  Even the background of the finnish photo is green and yellow

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2566/3842644455_d56c1118b5_o.jpg)

On the Finnish wreck, the border between grey-blue and yellow is chipped, not as we see on the wartime photo.

I don't understand your comment...  Do you agree that A-19f and AE-9 are very similar?

Cheers,
KL   


Title: Re: Pe-2 with polichromatic camo in July 1941
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on July 17, 2011, 03:48:40 PM
Hi Konstantin,
I don't think that planes were delivered in yellow to the units, but in green A-19f.
Besides I don't think that the yellow that I see on the wrecks can be intended as a camo color, nor on the ground, even less in the sky. Maybe if they mix some other color...
The fact that zinc chromate appears similar to light greys and light blues on a photo  is known, but the conclusion doesn't look convincing.
I don't think that AE-9 and A-18F were so strictly similar, else they both would be called in the same way  'light grey' or 'light blue'.
The fact that the color on the pieces looks more as grey than as blue is interesting and should be explained, but I am not sure that this explanation is right.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Pe-2 with polichromatic camo in July 1941
Post by: KL on July 17, 2011, 04:46:51 PM
Hi Massimo,
In your first post you asked for suggestions.  You got few:

?   blue should be lighter
?   gray is probably the same underside light blue(-gray)
?   on some wrecks it is evident that parts were primed only

It looks that you are really happy with your drawings and explanations, and that you will not accept any suggestions.  That?s OK, but next time, ask for comments only.

Cheers,
KL


Title: Re: Pe-2 with polichromatic camo in July 1941
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on July 17, 2011, 09:57:15 PM
Hi Konstantin,
thank you all the same.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Pe-2 with polichromatic camo in July 1941
Post by: KL on July 18, 2011, 09:22:15 PM
It is fascinating that several photos of different planes exist, but all are wrecks in German hands, from the summer, judging by the bright light and vegetation.  Is there any more information on the photos sources?  (eg from one German unit?)

Perhaps test unit with documents lost in the chaos of 1941?   

Hi Troy,  :)
More documents are preserved in Russian archives than in German archives.  Russian researchers have already identified unit, location, time when Germans destroyed these planes.

You were right - It was a test unit!  They tested dive bombing techniques, not camouflage schemes... ::)

Cheers,
KL


Title: Re: Pe-2 with polichromatic camo in July 1941
Post by: KL on July 22, 2011, 09:22:58 AM
Hi Massimo,  :)
Pe-2 from the same unit, summer 1941:

No 12
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Fence_airfield/102KMC5.jpg)
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Fence_airfield/302KMC9-1.jpg)


No 24
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Fence_airfield/675bb288d327.jpg)
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Fence_airfield/d0feccb8cc77.jpg)

No 27
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Fence_airfield/329952fb5c2f.jpg)

No 33
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Fence_airfield/05o045avbj.jpg)
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Fence_airfield/0lrp82280c.jpg)

No 35
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Fence_airfield/16de46442835.jpg)
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Fence_airfield/0e67cf823568.jpg)

No 44
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Fence_airfield/202KMBU.jpg)
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Fence_airfield/202KMBX.jpg)

It would be interesting to draw more profiles, to show various schemes utilized by this unit.

Cheers,
KL


Title: Re: Pe-2 with polichromatic camo in July 1941
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on July 22, 2011, 03:57:27 PM
Thank you very much, Konstantin. Very good images!
I'll do it certainly, now I'm going on holidays and I'm trying to update and upload a page on Il-2s before leaving.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Pe-2 with polichromatic camo in July 1941
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on August 09, 2011, 07:29:38 AM
Hi,
I've updated the page with the photos from Konstantin and corrected the color drawings. Please, have a look.
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/pe2/pe2-earlycamo24/pe2-earlycamo24.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/pe2/pe2-earlycamo24/pe2-earlycamo24.htm)
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Pe-2 with polichromatic camo in July 1941
Post by: KL on August 10, 2011, 07:52:13 AM
Hi Massimo,
all following photos are showing the same plane - tailpate No 7

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/pe2/pe2-earlycamo24/pe2-cs28-21-7-41.jpg)

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/pe2/pe2-earlycamo24/pe2-csh.jpg)

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/pe2/pe2-earlycamo24/pe2-csd.jpg)

(http://shot.photo.qip.ru/302KXLk.jpg)

If you draw profiles for this plane and No 35 painted as I suggested (green ALG-1/A-18f/A-19f/black), I'll tell you what unit, where and when!!!  ::)  It's an interesting story.  Nothing to do with Manchuria.  :-X

Cheers,
KL


Title: Re: Pe-2 with polichromatic camo in July 1941
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on August 10, 2011, 01:08:33 PM
Hi Konstantin,
thank you for the suggestion and the new photo. Now, I think to see a 7 (or even a 47) on the fuselage on the second photo, possibly painted red, at the border between black and the light color.
I am very interested if you have found the story of this unit.
Yellow... to tell the truth, I don't thnk it's the case, unless there is some proof or report of this use of ALG-1.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Pe-2 with polichromatic camo in July 1941
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on August 10, 2011, 03:19:39 PM
Well, ok, I'll trace profiles with your color... of course I'll write that it's your suggestion. But I need a fourth color, the patch on the tail doesn't seem black.
Besides I'm not fully convinced that the plane of the second image is the same of other ones. Try to make a chronology of successive damages visible... in the second image it has still the antenna mast but a bent prop axis, in the third there is not antenna nor blades but the prop axis is straight.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Pe-2 with polichromatic camo in July 1941
Post by: KL on August 10, 2011, 06:40:32 PM
Chronologicaly:

Complete plane ( July 27, 1941??):
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/pe2/pe2-earlycamo24/pe2-cs28-21-7-41.jpg)

(http://shot.photo.qip.ru/302KXLk.jpg)

Vandalisation - Phase 1 (black engine cover in place):
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/pe2/pe2-earlycamo24/pe2-csh.jpg)

Vandalisation - Phase 2 (no covers, no propeller, brocken antenna):
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/pe2/pe2-earlycamo24/pe2-csd.jpg)


Cheers,
KL


Title: Re: Pe-2 with polichromatic camo in July 1941
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on August 10, 2011, 07:41:45 PM
Hi Konstantin,
I've doubts that the third photo belongs to the same plane: the spinner looks black, while on photos 2 and 4 is light (black on the other side). Besides, in photo 3 the prop axis is bent. In photo 4, spinner and blades are removed, but the hub is intact. Maybe someone has moved the right propeller and left it on the left side... Besides, in photo 3 a small circular hatch is missing, and in photo 4 is reappeared (or was it the head of someone out of focus?).
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Pe-2 with polichromatic camo in July 1941
Post by: KL on August 10, 2011, 07:45:19 PM
Massimo,  :)

Pe-2 No 35 colours:

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Fence_airfield/Pe-2No35lbls.jpg)

Rudder structure under ripped off fabric was yellow.  Plane in Finnish museum was shot down on June 29.  Pe-2 No 35 was destroyed in bombing week later, on July 05, 1941.

Cheers,
KL


Title: Re: Pe-2 with polichromatic camo in July 1941
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on August 10, 2011, 09:36:32 PM
Hi Konstantin, :)
the wrecks are interesting for the shades that let see, including a dark green, an olive or brown and perhaps a light green. If they are useful to identify the unit, it is a good thing.
I don't understand your belief that the shade of yellow visible on the photo was utilized as camo color. On a bw photo, any color with the same darkness can give the same shade of grey.
What we see on that wreck is only a underlying layer of primer under the light grey, not an external color. The contours reveal that yellow has reappeared after grey has chipped off. The contours of the light painted color visible in wartime photos are different by those produced by the chipping away of grey that let see the yellow primer, that is what we see on the color photos below.

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Pe-2 with polichromatic camo in July 1941
Post by: KL on August 10, 2011, 10:03:15 PM
I don't understand your belief that the shade of yellow visible on the photo was utilized as camo color.

I don't understand how you can see dark green, brown, cream and light gray on those b/w photos.
-  Dark green 3B was discontinued in 1938
-  tobacco brown was nitro paint for fabric that never went into production
-  cream was nitro paint for fabric covered civil planes and also never went into production
-  light gray AE-9 was supposed to be overpainted according to June 1941 directive

Do you agree that the rudder structure (dur-alluminium ribs and spar) on following picture was protected with yellow ALG-1?

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Fence_airfield/0e67cf823568.jpg)

Do you agree that the front of the tailplate and tailcone were the same colour?

IMHO, it is possible that the plane was assembled in the unit from parts which arrived from Zavod 22 uncamouflaged.

Cheers,
KL


Title: Re: Pe-2 with polichromatic camo in July 1941
Post by: JP on August 11, 2011, 05:29:30 AM
Interesting discussion.

What is that white-looking color (in B&W) at the middle of the tail near the spars?


Title: Re: Pe-2 with polichromatic camo in July 1941
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on August 11, 2011, 06:15:30 AM
Hi Konstantin,
Quote
I don't understand how you can see dark green, brown, cream and light gray on those b/w photos.
-  Dark green 3B was discontinued in 1938
-  tobacco brown was nitro paint for fabric that never went into production
-  cream was nitro paint for fabric covered civil planes and also never went into production
-  light gray AE-9 was supposed to be overpainted according to June 1941 directive

It was only to reference to some existed paint. However any color can be obtained by mixing paints. The colors visible on the wrecks above (light green-dark green-olive-light brown) could be taken in consideration, if you know that are related to the planes left on the ground.


Quote
Do you agree that the rudder structure (dur-alluminium ribs and spar) on following picture was protected with yellow ALG-1?
yes
Quote
Do you agree that the front of the tailplate and tailcone were the same colour?
No, it only appears so on the bw photo. Th alg-1 as we see it on the wreck isn't a camo color.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Pe-2 with polichromatic camo in July 1941
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on August 11, 2011, 06:17:35 AM
Hi JP,
I suppose that it's natural metal.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Pe-2 with polichromatic camo in July 1941
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on August 11, 2011, 06:54:33 AM
By the way, what about this wreck from Scalemodels.ru??
(http://s4.postimage.org/2plf6l2sk/P1020157.jpg)
The caption says that was lost in 1942, if I read well. Then, why it shows brown painting?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Pe-2 with polichromatic camo in July 1941
Post by: KL on August 11, 2011, 06:49:33 PM
Quote
Do you agree that the front of the tailplate and tailcone were the same colour?
No, it only appears so on the bw photo.

OK, this must be the end of b/w photo interpretation!  Those apper to be the same colour, but they aren't?

Check this photo for ALG-1 painted rudder structure:

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/WWII%20VVS%20aircraft%20-%20colour%20photos/SaM1941_44_2_.jpg)

and then think/consider how would yellow work in summer on a Russian airfield:

(http://content.foto.mail.ru/mail/avia-ufa/273/i-288.jpg)

(http://content.foto.mail.ru/mail/avia-ufa/273/i-289.jpg)

(http://content.foto.mail.ru/mail/avia-ufa/273/i-290.jpg)

Yellow would hide planes much better than gray.  8) AMT-1 (aka "coffee with milk") was designed for these conditions.

Cheers,
KL   




Title: Re: Pe-2 with polichromatic camo in July 1941
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on August 11, 2011, 10:22:35 PM
Hi Konstantin,
I have no doubt that some variations of ALG-1, brownish or greenish, could be utilized as camo colors.
But look at the shade found on the Pe-2:
http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Fence_airfield/Pe-2No35lbls.jpg (http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Fence_airfield/Pe-2No35lbls.jpg)
it looks like a canary yellow. And it's likely the color visible on the strut on the bw photo.
Now, if you want, I can send to you the template of the Pe-2, you can easily modify it with photoshop and you will see that the color is too visible even on the brown grass.
Of course, it could be that they obtained a camo color, green or brown,  by mixing ALG-1 with other colors, but not the same color visible of the strut.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Pe-2 with polichromatic camo in July 1941
Post by: KL on August 12, 2011, 07:57:39 PM
But look at the shade found on the Pe-2:
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Fence_airfield/Pe-2No35lbls.jpg)
it looks like a canary yellow. And it's likely the color visible on the strut on the bw photo.

True, it was a canary yellow.  How about this hypothesis:  Sometimes before June 22nd (beginning of the GPW), rear fuselage and tailplates on the plane No 35 had been replaced with parts which came from the factory primed only.  When unit was rushed in combat planes were hastily camouflaged and yellow parts were only partially covered with green and black patches. 

BTW, what part of the plane you call "strut"??

Planes we are talking about were camouflaged during the first 10-15 days of the war.  Those who applied paint with brushes and spay-guns probably didn?t know much about camouflage theory and details of the latest order.  But still, there must have been some logic in the selection of colours.  It wasn?t ?Manchurian Influence?, ?gray for clouds? or ?yellow for dry grass? theories have slightly better chances.  In reality we don?t know what that light colour was.

On the other hand, we can deduct that parts of the plane No 35 were yellow!  Too bad only rear fuselage and tail were photographed.

Why don?t you draw just the rear fuselage and tail for this plane?

Cheers,
KL
 


Title: Re: Pe-2 with polichromatic camo in July 1941
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on August 12, 2011, 10:17:46 PM
Hi Konstantin,
I strongly believe that the factory didn't deliver unpainted planes, but painted in green and light blue, and they were repainted over carefully according to a unit sketch (at least 24, 27, 35 and some other ones, maybe other ones were roughly painted); that many of these planes were painted with the same colors, even if exchanged in position, and that those colors should mask the planes on the ground or in the air. I don't think that the light color on the outside is yellow, even if casually resembles identical to that of yellow frames on a bw photo.
If you need the template to trace your drawing with photoshop, I can send it, of course.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Pe-2 with polichromatic camo in July 1941
Post by: KL on August 13, 2011, 12:42:38 AM
I strongly believe that the factory didn't deliver unpainted planes, but painted in green and light blue....

This was true for series planes which were then distributed to the operational units.  The unit that we are talking about here was special... ;)

cheers,
KL


Title: Re: Pe-2 with polichromatic camo in July 1941
Post by: JP on August 13, 2011, 01:48:05 AM
It's not nice to tease, чувак.  :P


Title: Re: Pe-2 with polichromatic camo in July 1941
Post by: KL on August 13, 2011, 08:05:51 AM
It's not nice to tease, чувак.  :P

Seriously, it was a regiment "особого назначения" (Special Purpose)  8)

If you need the template to trace your drawing with photoshop, I can send it, of course.

Of course, send them (with short instruction how to use them  :)).  I hoped you would do them.

Cheers,
KL


Title: Re: Pe-2 with polichromatic camo in July 1941
Post by: KL on August 19, 2011, 08:45:46 PM
Some tanks photographed in summer 1941 look very light/bright.  Those were primarily, at that time, new T-34s

(http://s42.radikal.ru/i098/0912/ee/050616d680bd.jpg)
(http://s49.radikal.ru/i123/0912/43/ea5f63f2a3ee.jpg)
(http://s52.radikal.ru/i135/0809/43/e0f4599ed98e.jpg)

those who study tank camouflage and paints, believe those T-34s were painted with then relatively new 4BO paint.

1941 4BO should be yellow-green

(http://www.dishmodels.ru/picture/wlk/01/01857/w01857_9681300.jpg)
(http://www.antik1941.ru/bimages//2010%20antik1941.ru.%20sentib.moskva%20(685).jpg)

HTH,
KL 


Title: Re: Pe-2 with polichromatic camo in July 1941
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on August 19, 2011, 10:20:41 PM
Hi Konstantin,
I can't see the photos of the tanks.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Pe-2 with polichromatic camo in July 1941
Post by: learstang on August 19, 2011, 10:35:43 PM
That's strange, Massimo - I can.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Pe-2 with polichromatic camo in July 1941
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on August 20, 2011, 07:25:57 AM
Hi Jason,
perhaps it depends on the time and the temporarily unavailability of the server, I've tried to copy and glue the address in the navigation bar and it doesn't work either.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Pe-2 with polichromatic camo in July 1941
Post by: KL on August 20, 2011, 08:21:28 AM
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/Te0f4599ed98e.jpg)
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/T050616d680bd.jpg)
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/Tea5f63f2a3ee.jpg)


Title: Re: Pe-2 with polichromatic camo in July 1941
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on August 20, 2011, 01:52:14 PM
Hi,
now I see them, thank you.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Pe-2 with polichromatic camo in July 1941
Post by: KL on August 20, 2011, 06:10:29 PM
Hi Massimo,  :)

those tanks were not gray -  simply because gray wasn't a camouflage colour.  Same approach should be applied to those June-July 1941 Pe-2.

Comments?

KL


Title: Re: Pe-2 with polichromatic camo in July 1941
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on August 20, 2011, 08:38:30 PM
Hi Konstantin,
thanks have not to canouflage between clouds.
However the planes have a big variety of colors from light to dark and are represented in many photos, so it can't be a color as 4bo that is already represented by a-19f. If it is a green or a brown, it has to be very light anyway, not one of the known ones.
But, is it sure that those wrecks were from planes of the same unit?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Pe-2 with polichromatic camo in July 1941
Post by: KL on August 20, 2011, 09:10:48 PM
However the planes have a big variety of colors from light to dark and are represented in many photos, so it can't be a color as 4bo that is already represented by a-19f.

A-19f and 4BO were very different.  Decodable and nondecodable colour


Title: Re: Pe-2 with polichromatic camo in July 1941
Post by: TISO on August 03, 2014, 03:30:07 PM
It's not nice to tease, чувак.  :P

Seriously, it was a regiment "особого назначения" (Special Purpose)  8)
Cheers,
KL
410.PBAP ON or in original 410.пбап он i.e. пикирующий бомбардировочный авиационный полк особого назначения
Formed from test pilots of NII VVS as 1.PBAP ON renamed on 1.7.1941 to 410. PBAP ON comanded by polkovnik Kabanov Aleksandr Ivanovich. In operations from 5th to 28th of July 1941, disbanded in october 1941 and used for ressuply of 260.PBAP. Operated from Vitebsk airfield

Same debate thanks KL for hints on this interesting story:
http://imf.forum24.ru/?1-4-80-00000091-000-0-0 (http://imf.forum24.ru/?1-4-80-00000091-000-0-0)

http://www.teatrskazka.com/Raznoe/Perechni_voisk/Perechen_12_01.html (http://www.teatrskazka.com/Raznoe/Perechni_voisk/Perechen_12_01.html)

from:
Авиация и космонавтика 2004 05-06 - ПИКИРУЮЩИЙ БОМБАРДИРОВЩИК ПЕ-2 - В. Р. КОТЕЛЬНИКОВ А.Н. МЕДВЕДЬ Д. Б. ХАЗАНОВ quote on the forum
(my translation)
Quote
Important role in bringing the Pe-2 to "performance standard" was played with creation of 410.BAP NO from the NII VVS under command of Colonel A.I. Kabanov, who was before the war as deputy head of the Institute flight part. Under his leadership in July, dive bombing was worked out. Regiment was immediately involved in combat operations in the Battle of Smolensk.
First sortie of the regiment was made ​​in full (32 crews) to bomb the crossings of the Western Dvina. The enemy suffered heavy losses.
But the regiment paid dearly. From 5th to 28th of July 1941, its losses amounted to 33 aircraft. Every third plane was not lost in aerial combat. Three Peshkas crashed, three were destroyed by German bombs on the airfield, two had to be burned during the retreat, and the disaster happened. The rest were shot down by fighters and anti-aircraft guns, making an average of less than 11 sorties. According to flight crews, such large losses were attributed to failure of weapons, as well as weakneses of the armor. Gunner Ratnikov who managed to bail out of the burning aircraft  wrote: "There is nothing more horrifying than when you see the enemy approached closely, look him literrally in the eyee and can not destroy him because of the refusal of weapons."

Enemy quickly identified weaknesses of Peshka and changed tactics of attack. If you have previously attempted to shoot down Soviet bombers on a collision course, then later experienced German pilots and foremost commander Lt. Col. V. JG 51 M?lders began recommending prosecution of Pe-2 from rear, firing short bursts from long distances, and in the event of lack of return fire closing in and shooting at point-blank with incendiary bullets into central fuel tanks.

In response to such German tactics flight and technical personnel of 410th Regiment began the search for adequate measures. In particular, immediately offered to improve the turret, changing the design of flexible ammo supply; mount side firing point with the possibility of moving the machinegun from side to side; mounting a remote machine gun installation in the tail cone (it was developed by designer Mursev). All of these improvements were adopted over time. However, 410th Regiment fought for a short time: in October 1941, it was disbanded and specialists were withdrawn to continue working in the rear.


Title: Re: Pe-2 with polichromatic camo in July 1941
Post by: KL on August 03, 2014, 08:15:58 PM
Same debate thanks KL for hints on this interesting story:

Thanks to Mihail Timin; he was able to identify the unit and tell the interesting story!


Title: Re: Pe-2 with polichromatic camo in July 1941
Post by: TISO on August 03, 2014, 08:22:41 PM
A story not widely known. Thank him for me.
And thanks for the bread crumbs  ;)


Title: Re: Pe-2 with polichromatic camo in July 1941
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on August 04, 2014, 08:11:03 AM
Hi,
interesting page indeed.
For what I read, not all the camouflaged planes were of 410 PBAP. Some are of 411 BAP (or PBAP?) and eventually of other units, have I read well?
This seems to suggest that some Pe-2s were camouflaged in factory, following (not strictly) the recommandation of early 1941.
Any ideas?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Pe-2 with polichromatic camo in July 1941
Post by: TISO on August 25, 2014, 03:49:25 AM
I'll just misuse this thread to post this pic of captured early Pe-2 with hastily added black paint:
http://miliblog.co.uk/?cat=348 (http://miliblog.co.uk/?cat=348)
http://miliblog.co.uk/?p=1957&creativepage=2 (http://miliblog.co.uk/?p=1957&creativepage=2)
(http://miliblog.co.uk/wp-content/gallery/air-russian-origww2-light-bombers/petlyakov-pe-2-light-bomber.jpg)


Title: Re: Pe-2 with polichromatic camo in July 1941
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on December 10, 2015, 05:23:14 PM
Hi,
I've made an update of this page. I've proposed an interpretation of this camouflage partly based on the directives of May 1941.
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/pe2/pe2-earlycamo24/pe2-earlycamo24.htm (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/pe2/pe2-earlycamo24/pe2-earlycamo24.htm)
Please, let me know any comment.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Pe-2 with polichromatic camo in July 1941
Post by: Llemon on March 27, 2019, 12:55:36 AM
Some additional photos all from Vitebsk. The first few are for sure the polychromatic camo.

(https://i.imgur.com/wHNGV4m.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/xc4d2A8.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/VU43l2l.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Q7hSJNp.jpg)

This doesn't look like standard camo to me but also doesnt look like the other polychromes.
(https://i.imgur.com/ovpQXKo.jpg)

And another odd one. Doesn't look like poly, seems to be field applied. Just posting this because it is interesting.
(https://i.imgur.com/sjMNBg1.jpg)


From; http://imf.forum24.ru/?1-4-0-00000182-000-180-0


Title: Re: Pe-2 with polichromatic camo in July 1941
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on March 27, 2019, 07:32:10 AM
Hi Llemon,
very interesting photos, thank you for sharing.
About the last photo of the post, I suspect that it is a 3 shades camouflage of another type, related with some that we have already seen. Note all the light parts on the tail: they could seem reflections, but a reflective surface should show the inner side of the right fin, or at least its shadow.
It is surprising to see that the central part of the photo of the plane is very confused, while the ground close to it is very sharp. Perhaps the photo was defective on its central part and some photoshopping was made to improve it, perhaps the printing is not the original one.

On the same forum, I've found a photo of a DB-3F with poly camouflage.
(https://i.ibb.co/N1DCV7j/ILJUSCHIN-Il-4-DB-3-F-Mittelschwerer-Bomber.jpg)

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Pe-2 with polichromatic camo in July 1941
Post by: Llemon on June 08, 2019, 12:10:18 AM
A few more from the same site.
(https://i.imgur.com/BqPC6VK.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/3TYcPy2.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/hlEqbnX.jpg)

And another of the DB
(https://i.imgur.com/dDqJygU.jpg)


Title: Re: Pe-2 with polichromatic camo in July 1941
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 08, 2019, 07:14:10 AM
Thank you very much, they are great. Particularly the one of DB-3.
Regards
Massimo