Sovietwarplanes

Great Patriotic War Aviation => Lavochkins => Topic started by: Pascal on August 11, 2011, 12:39:08 AM



Title: Lavrinenkov's La-7, 9 GIAP
Post by: Pascal on August 11, 2011, 12:39:08 AM
Hello !

My next model will be Vladimir Lavrinenkov's La-7 (the 1/48 Eduard's one) :

(http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/263388La7Lav.png) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=263388La7Lav.png)

I need your help, please ! Is this representation accurate ? I've seen other profiles with some differences, like blue or white spinner, a red outlined lightning bolt, etc.

The only pic I know is a front view where the spinner is undoubtly not white, but also too light to be red, I guess. But I've just found this copy, much better from first one, and the spinner seems as the cowling ring...

(http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/434870RIAN1728.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=434870RIAN1728.jpg)

Could you give me more informations ?

Thanks to all,

Pascal


Title: Re: Lavrinenkov's La-7, 9 GIAP
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on August 11, 2011, 08:33:57 PM
Hi Pascal,
the cowling ring of the plane in the photo is camouflaged. One can distinguish the soft demarcation between the grey and light blue.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Lavrinenkov's La-7, 9 GIAP
Post by: KL on August 11, 2011, 09:01:15 PM
Hi Pascal,

I agree with Massimo; engine cowling was camouflaged in gray-gray AMT-11/AMT-12 scheme.  Only the spinner could have been red.

It?s a mystery why Russian artists have at least part of the cowling red!
(http://www.airpages.ru/img/ru/la-7.jpg)
(http://repin.chuguev.net/images/avia_44.jpg)
(http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/lavrin5.jpg)

The arrow was probably red
(http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/lavrin3.jpg)

Same as Famous Amet-Han?s La-7
(http://img0.liveinternet.ru/images/attach/c/1//50/90/50090644_Amethan_1_.jpg)

Cheers,
KL


Title: Re: Lavrinenkov's La-7, 9 GIAP
Post by: Pascal on August 12, 2011, 12:06:21 AM
Hi Massimo and Konstantin,

Thanks to you ! If the cowling is camouflaged, it's not a problem for me. You're right, I now can see a demarcation between the two colours.

As I could read, the arrow was white before april 1945, then red. The aircraft I would like to represent were all AMT-11 on upper surfaces, with the white arrow, I guess as it was in december 1944... But I'm not sure. Do you know if or when La-7 were painted in a uniform gray on upper surfaces ?

Eduard offers the red arrow on a two-tones camouflage, like the known pics... If I (or you ;)) can't certify my project, I'll use the Eduard scheme.

Regards,

Pascal


Title: Re: Lavrinenkov's La-7, 9 GIAP
Post by: learstang on August 12, 2011, 04:07:27 AM
Pascal, do you or anyone else who reads this thread know of a good La-7 in 1/72nd scale?  I'm not necessarily looking for engraved panel lines (the La-7 didn't have many panels anyway) or a super-detailed cockpit, just a kit that is accurate in dimensions and the cowling, canopy, etc.  Simple and easy to build is a big plus also.  Any help would be appreciated!  Thank you.  I'm thinking about doing Sultan Ahmet-Khan's machine.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Lavrinenkov's La-7, 9 GIAP
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on August 12, 2011, 07:02:17 AM
Hi Pascal,
I can't be sure, but I think that the AMT-11 finish was a repainting of an original disruptive camo, I suppose they did this in 1945 or later; according to what you have written on the white arrow, I don't think that it's compatible. For example, Amet-Khan's plane first received the red arrow and nose, (see the photo), then maybe could has een repainted with uniform grey.

Hi Jason,
a modeller  told me that the shape of the La-7 of KP is better than that of the Eduard. Of course, it's a rather poor model on many points. The Hobbyboss, I think, is a poor copy of Eduard, so it remains the Eastern Express/Frog kit, I don't know it but I don't think it's better than other ones.

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Lavrinenkov's La-7, 9 GIAP
Post by: learstang on August 12, 2011, 07:25:54 AM
Thank you, Massimo, I'll look for the Eastern Express copy.  I have a model I made out of the KP kit many years ago; the main fault I had with the kit was the shape of the canopy which didn't look right at all.  It's a sad comment on the state of VVS modelling when the best kit in 1/72nd scale of one of the best fighters of the war may be the copy of an old Frog kit.  Then again, look at the I-153.  At least with this, we'll hopefully have a decent kit from ICM by the end of the year.  Maybe instead of cranking out another sodding Spitfire (which does happens to be one of my favourite aeroplanes, but do we really need another early version of it?) or Bf-109 (if I see another new kit of an "Emil" in any scale, I think my head will explode), the Western manufacturers will look to the potentially huge market for VVS subjects in Eastern Europe.  Then again, why, when they can come out with whatever the current version of the F-16 is (I believe it's the F-16CJXKE Block 328Z with the new "Doorahk" electronics suite).

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Lavrinenkov's La-7, 9 GIAP
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on August 12, 2011, 03:35:06 PM
Hi Jason,
are you sure that the canopy is wrong compared to photos? For what I know, Airacobra built a model of Eduard modified with a vacuformed canopy for KP, replacing the section of fuselage around it with a piece cutten from a KP.
For me, Eastern Express is only a curiosity. Who knows if there is any review of it on the web?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Lavrinenkov's La-7, 9 GIAP
Post by: KL on August 12, 2011, 06:49:18 PM
Pascal,

Solid gray for top surfaces wasn?t an official scheme during WWII.  November 1944 camouflage order, which introduced gray-dark gray scheme for shturmovics and bombers, actually confirmed 1943 two-gray scheme for fighters.  Album with new scheme appeared in January 1945.  All La-7 made during WWII were factory painted in two gray camouflage scheme.  

Photographic evidence suggests single gray for individual planes which may have been repainted in units.  I wouldn?t rush ? better quality photos usually show that planes were actually camouflaged in standard two-gray scheme.

Solid light gray became official scheme only after WWII.  La-9 would be an example for factory applied single light gray scheme

(http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/fww2/la9/la9-5.jpg)

(http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/fww2/la9/la9-8.jpg)


For Lavrinenkov?s La-7, check other 9 giap planes.  Following (poor quality) photos in most cases confirm two-gray scheme.

A.V. Alelyuhin
(http://1000aircraftphotos.com/Contributions/KleinBernhard/6593L.jpg)

Sultan Amet-Han
(http://www.23ag.ru/assets/images/03_La7.jpg)
(http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/amet_h0.jpg)
(http://v21842.ru/images/hero_souz/Amet_xan1.png)

Golovachov
(http://www.rumodelism.com/forum/download.php/1,39056/Головачев%209ГИАП.jpg)

Spinner colour depended on squadron (eskadrillya) planes belonged to:
1st eskadrillya - red
2nd eskadrillya - blue
3rd eskadrillya - yellow

Honestly, I would forget Eduard?s profile from the beginning of the tread!

Cheers,
KL


Title: Re: Lavrinenkov's La-7, 9 GIAP
Post by: learstang on August 12, 2011, 07:20:11 PM
Konstantin, are you sure about those yellow spinners?  I've always been sceptical about their usage, even when veterans say they were used (60+ year old memories aren't the most reliable of sources).  Is their any archaeological evidence for their use?  It just seems stupid to have used the Axis identification colour on the front of your aeroplane - you would be asking for trouble in the form of friendly fire.  Just my opinion.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Lavrinenkov's La-7, 9 GIAP
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on August 12, 2011, 08:04:48 PM
Hi
about fighters immediately after the war: it's difficult to distinguish green planes from grey ones. They passed to green/light blue livery on Lavochkins and Yaks, this is proven by photos of wrecks and by reports, but I don't know exactly when; by sure, before 1950.
I've found an article of Vaklamov and Orlov on Scalemodels here http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_954_start_0.html (http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_954_start_0.html), I suppose it writes the same things reported by Hornat, but it would be interesting to know more.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Lavrinenkov's La-7, 9 GIAP
Post by: KL on August 12, 2011, 08:20:31 PM
Konstantin, are you sure about those yellow spinners?

This was the end of war and fortunes had changed.  German fighters were rare and the initiative was on Soviet side.
Formation flying with bad or no radio connection was something that units had to deal with.  Hence so many regimental and other markings.

Think of hundreds of planes from different units in the air at the same time, relatively smaller front, allied planes near by.

Cheers,
KL


Title: Re: Lavrinenkov's La-7, 9 GIAP
Post by: learstang on August 12, 2011, 08:58:52 PM
If you're saying this was something that was used near the end of the war, when the Soviets had achieved air superiority (if not air dominance) then it makes sense.  I just don't think yellow spinners in 1942 would have been very wise.  Although yellow spinner or not, at that time you were probably going to be shot down anyway, but then again why worsen your already slim chances?  So would you agree that yellow noses/spinners earlier in the war, say before 1944, were unlikely?

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Lavrinenkov's La-7, 9 GIAP
Post by: KL on August 13, 2011, 12:07:27 AM
would you agree that yellow noses/spinners earlier in the war, say before 1944, were unlikely?

Yes, I agree.  Yellow tactical markings were unlikely before 1944.

They passed to green/light blue livery on Lavochkins and Yaks, this is proven by photos of wrecks and by reports, but I don't know exactly when; by sure, before 1950.

In 1948 according to Orlov in Aviakollektsiya La-9 and Aviakollektsiya La-11 issues

KL


Title: Re: Lavrinenkov's La-7, 9 GIAP
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on August 13, 2011, 07:30:21 AM

Hi
Quote
In 1948 according to Orlov in Aviakollektsiya La-9 and Aviakollektsiya La-11 issues
Does it give any temporal goal for the overall light grey livery (AMT-16 I think)?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Lavrinenkov's La-7, 9 GIAP
Post by: KL on August 13, 2011, 08:44:00 AM
Does it give any temporal goal for the overall light grey livery (AMT-16 I think)?

In July 1946 VVS requested from factories to paint all metal planes with matt laquers made after the new gray-light blue standards.  Such single tone AMT-11 scheme was used on first La-9 series.

New gray paints AMT-16, AGT-16, A-36g, PF-36m and PF-36g were put in test production in May 1947. Technical specifications for them appeared in the second half of 1947.

Aug 11, 1947 MAP (former NKAP) directive requested from La-9 producers to swich to glossy gray oil paint A-36g.

Hope this helps.  :)

Cheers,
KL  


Title: Re: Lavrinenkov's La-7, 9 GIAP
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on August 13, 2011, 09:42:02 AM
Thank you Konstantin
Massimo


Title: Re: Lavrinenkov's La-7, 9 GIAP
Post by: John Thompson on August 13, 2011, 06:17:16 PM

Hi
Quote
In 1948 according to Orlov in Aviakollektsiya La-9 and Aviakollektsiya La-11 issues
Does it give any temporal goal for the overall light grey livery (AMT-16 I think)?
Regards
Massimo

AMT-16 or A-36?

John


Title: Re: Lavrinenkov's La-7, 9 GIAP
Post by: John Thompson on August 13, 2011, 06:56:00 PM
Thank you, Massimo, I'll look for the Eastern Express copy.  I have a model I made out of the KP kit many years ago; the main fault I had with the kit was the shape of the canopy which didn't look right at all.  It's a sad comment on the state of VVS modelling when the best kit in 1/72nd scale of one of the best fighters of the war may be the copy of an old Frog kit.  Then again, look at the I-153.  At least with this, we'll hopefully have a decent kit from ICM by the end of the year.  Maybe instead of cranking out another sodding Spitfire (which does happens to be one of my favourite aeroplanes, but do we really need another early version of it?) or Bf-109 (if I see another new kit of an "Emil" in any scale, I think my head will explode), the Western manufacturers will look to the potentially huge market for VVS subjects in Eastern Europe.  Then again, why, when they can come out with whatever the current version of the F-16 is (I believe it's the F-16CJXKE Block 328Z with the new "Doorahk" electronics suite).

Regards,

Jason

??? I hope I've stumbled in here in time to save you wasting your time and money - in a word, DON'T. Unfortunately when I went to look in my La-7 storage box for my example of the Frog/EE La-7, it wasn't there (maybe I palmed it off on some unsuspecting Junior Forest Ranger already). I just don't see why anyone would consider this sick old puppy instead of the very modern Eduard kit, unless you feel a need to fit yourself up with a hair shirt or to do what some call "practice bleeding". I don't know offhand of a detailed online build review of the Eduard La-7 (if anyone else does, please post a link) itemizing its faults, but the only one I can think of quickly is that the spinner is oddly shaped. For this you can either rework the kit one, take a better one from another kit (Cooperativa LaG-5, for example), or buy the corrected resin spinner which is available from SBS:
http://www.modelimex.com/1-72-la-7-spinner-edu

To give you something to work from, scans from the MBI La-7 monograph, including scale drawings, are here:
http://www.airwar.ru/other/draw/la7mbi.html

I thought this might be helpful, but all of the images are gone:
http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=272.0

At the time, I did save the images (all 27 of them!) myself, so I could post a few if you want. If so, be prepared for shock and awe - it's a typical Czech super-super-detailed mega-masterpiece...  :o

John


Title: Re: Lavrinenkov's La-7, 9 GIAP
Post by: learstang on August 13, 2011, 07:03:19 PM
Thank you very much for the info and links, John!  I haven't bought the La-7 kit yet, so your post comes at a very opportune time (I'm still trying to complete my P-39; to do it as Rechkalov's, Pokryshkin's, or Ahmet-Khan's - that's the question - if I do it as Sultan Ahmet-Khan's, then it would go with the La-7).

Best Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Lavrinenkov's La-7, 9 GIAP
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on August 13, 2011, 09:46:41 PM
Hi John,
perhaps A-36g, they were all metal planes.
Who knows on what planes was AMT-16 utilized? Yak-11?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Lavrinenkov's La-7, 9 GIAP
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on August 13, 2011, 09:52:33 PM
Hi John,
to tell the truth, I think that the drawings of MBI, and all the models made on those drawings, have a canopy too pushed on the fuselage. Perhaps it can be corrected with the addition of some plastic to make the canopy more protruding. However, it's the best model of La-7 all the same.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Lavrinenkov's La-7, 9 GIAP
Post by: Pascal on August 13, 2011, 10:27:01 PM
Honestly, I would forget Eduard?s profile from the beginning of the tread!

Thank you for your answer, it is very clear : my La-7 will have a two-tone camouflage on upper surface, include the nose, the spinner will be red, and maybe the arrow too. But I prefer the white arrow...

The profile I showed in the beginning is not Eduard's but an extract from the Osprey book about the Lavochkin aces. Eduard's one is accurate with your specifications except for the red nose.

I did like the all light grey camouflage, too bad ! So I'll be looking for a La-9... ;)

Thanks to all of you,

Pascal


Title: Re: Lavrinenkov's La-7, 9 GIAP
Post by: Troy Smith on September 01, 2011, 05:28:10 AM

I did like the all light grey camouflage, too bad ! So I'll be looking for a La-9... ;)
Pascal

Pascal

you could have all dark grey grey uppers...

Quote
This  looks like single upper colour on these La-7's, AMT12,  with I presume red nose and rudder tabs?  A (looks same colour as stars) A little blurred but the La-7 badges and cowl bands are visible.
Dated April 1945.
(http://i646.photobucket.com/albums/uu181/hurricanebuild/La7-singleuppercolor176GIAPp32MBI.jpg)

For more on La-7 see  http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=818.msg4801#msg4801

HTH
T


Title: Re: Lavrinenkov's La-7, 9 GIAP
Post by: Pascal on September 01, 2011, 10:01:19 AM
Thanks, Troy ! I've seen this thread and it's interesting... ;)

Pascal


Title: Re: Lavrinenkov's La-7, 9 GIAP
Post by: Pascal on June 10, 2012, 11:11:17 PM
Hi everybody!

I want to show you my La-7, after such many months...

(http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/653702termine1.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=653702termine1.jpg)

(http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/498927termine3.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=498927termine3.jpg)

I finally decided to paint the cowling ring in red, because I guess it is a possible thing, and I like it. ;) The paints are all Akan, and I like them too.

Regards,

Pascal


Title: Re: Lavrinenkov's La-7, 9 GIAP
Post by: learstang on June 11, 2012, 04:12:24 AM
Very nice, Pascal!  It looks good with the red cowling ring.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Lavrinenkov's La-7, 9 GIAP
Post by: Pascal on June 15, 2012, 10:29:00 AM
Thank you, Jason!

Here are three other pics, in day light:

(http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/286470P1090273.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=286470P1090273.jpg)

(http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/213307P1090281.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=213307P1090281.jpg)

(http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/697330P1090284.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=697330P1090284.jpg)

It looks good, isn't?

Pascal


Title: Re: Lavrinenkov's La-7, 9 GIAP
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 15, 2012, 11:44:00 AM
Hi Pascal,
really a nice model.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Lavrinenkov's La-7, 9 GIAP
Post by: learstang on June 15, 2012, 05:40:31 PM
You're welcome, Pascal, it looks great in natural light!  The colours don't look so blueish.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Lavrinenkov's La-7, 9 GIAP
Post by: PG monster on February 22, 2017, 01:23:06 PM
(http://soviet-aces-1936-53.ru/abc/l/lavrinen2.jpg)


Title: Re: Lavrinenkov's La-7, 9 GIAP
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on February 25, 2017, 06:14:06 PM
Hi,
perhaps I am a bit obsessed by this plane, I feel that he's an important pilot and I would like to understand how to draw his mount.
A further version of the photo is at
http://soviet-aces-1936-53.ru/abc/l/lavrinen3.jpg (http://soviet-aces-1936-53.ru/abc/l/lavrinen3.jpg)

To my eye, it looks the clearest version.
I think to see the small round of the La-7 logo, a vertical black thing that could be a defect of the photo, and light and dark parts that are compatible with a camouflaged nose.
So it seems that, at least at first, his plane hadn't a red nose nor a personal emblem.
Probably it received the red nose (front ring only) in a second time as the plane of Amet-Khan, but I can't know if  he adopted any personal emblem.
I wonder if the author of this article can be contacted to ask for a partial high-resolution scan of the cowling.

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Lavrinenkov's La-7, 9 GIAP
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on February 26, 2017, 07:39:00 AM
Hi,
I've updated the page on 9 giap with a profile of Lavrinyenko's plane, as I see it.
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/9giap/17lavrinyenkov-la72guns-rpr.jpg)

(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/9giap/lavrinyenkov-frontf.jpg)

I've slightly modified the profile of the plane of Amet-Khan, that has an enlarged star on the fuselage as typical of Z.381.
Regards
Massimo