Sovietwarplanes

Two recent treads about AMT-11 & AMT-12 on ARC forums and on Britmodeller forums:

http://s362974870.onlinehome.us/forums/air/index.php?s=4b0207d23f2eda22d46a7f17c399e44f&showtopic=235605
http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?s=6909be1b77d15e828574776dfeaa8039&showtopic=72892

Again and again the same story: 
1.   photographic evidence shows high contrast between two paints
2.   ?Albom Nakrasok? is wrong
3.    Pilawskii is right.

More and more hypothesis based solely on photographic evidence.  Not only that new ?paint experts? know why Albom chips deteriorated, they know now how and why AMT-11 and AMT-12 faded (or darkened).

IMHO it?s all Pilawskii?s legacy, his reversed logic; instead of starting from official documents and using them to explain photos (or relics), he and his followers start from photographic evidence to prove how official documents (like Albom Nakrasok) are irrelevant, how there was no rules in VVS coloration, etc.

It?s strange (to me) how people believe Pilawskii ? some even accept that Pilawskii made up most of his book ? but hey, he was right about the ?Albom?!!!

Any opinions, or you are all tired?

KL   

Некоторые люди думают, что Гитлер жил в Аргентине после войны на секретной подводной лодке.   :D

You mean Hitler didn't live in Argentina in a secret submarine after the war?  Were else did he come up with the AII Brown and IMUP colours to bedevil us poor modellers?  Quizas EP estaria el hijo secreto de Hitler?  Quien sabe?  ('Ow's zat for mixing up the yazviki!)

Saludos y до свидания,

Jason

In all honesty, I was about to buy these decals.  Then I looked up an image of what they looked like.

(http://www.hobbykit-import.com/images/AMLD48023.jpg)

I suppose I don't have to paint them that way.   :) 

Some of these things will take time to die off.  A legacy as troubled as EP's and as long in the making can't be undone quickly or easily.  I think all we can do here is continue our "farcical efforts" to be clear about what we think and why, fully produce the evidence driving our thoughts/opinions, and let the others go after bright green paints if they wish. 

Hi all,
I've seen that the discussion on Britmodellers has assumed a by far too emotive way. I don't want to be involved, we are discussing on colors of 70 years ago!
Regards
Massimo

John, I've bought those decals and they look very nice.  I learned long ago with my Shturmovik decals and instructions sheets to disregard the colours if they were obviously wrong (which they usually were) and go with what is probably (at the moment, to our best abilities) the correct colours.

Regards,

Jason

Summary:

Tikkakoski  museum Yak-9 rudder:  darker grey FS 35042, lighter FS 36118. (cit. K. Lumppio)".
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/VVS%20colours/Tikka_Yak-9_rudder.jpg)

Albom Nakrasok via Humbrol 79 (French Gris Bleu Fonc?) and Humbrol 32:  Humbrol 79 is close to 36118 + FS 36081 equivalent of Humbrol 32
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/VVS%20colours/HU79_and_HU32_AlbNakrasok.jpg)


Orlov-Vahlamov 1999 M-Hobby: AMT-11=FS26190 + AMT-12=FS27003.  Neither 26190 nor 27003 exist as FS colours!  Most likely authors approximated numbers between two closest matches in the fan.  The closest existing FS colours in 6xxx range (gray colours) are 26187 and 26008 respectively.
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/VVS%20colours/VO1999-closest_existing_FS.jpg)

There is also a possibility that 27003 was a typo; in that case authors most likely referred to 37030 (number of colours in 70xx range is very limited).  Check it at http://www.colorserver.net/showcolor.asp?fs=37030 (http://"http://www.colorserver.net/showcolor.asp?fs=37030")
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/VVS%20colours/VO1999_FS26187-37030.jpg)


Image saved from Scalemodels.ru forum.  AMT-7, AMT-11, AMT-12 and AMT-6 (AFAIK, Akan paints)
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/VVS%20colours/AMT-7-11-12-6.jpg)


Pilavskii in ?Soviet Air Force Fighter Colours? (2003):  AMT- 11: FS 36375 + AMT-12: FS 36081
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/VVS%20colours/Pilawskii_SAFC_AMT-11_AMT-12.jpg)


There is really a lot of agreement, not controversy.  Only colour that stands out is Pilawskii?s AMT-11.  It?s way too light.  Otherwise, we see a medium gray and a dark, or almost black shade of gray.

End of the story?. 8)

Cheers,
KL

That's a nice recap, Konstantin.  Thank you!

Regards,

Jason

I have both the WEM and AKAN paints: Although Pilawskii's FS suggestion for AMT-12 that you quoted here looks ok, the actual WEM version has a very strong green tint to it that fits none of the other sources you showed. Maybe he changed his mind after advising WEM paints, but I trust neither his AMT-11 nor his AMT-12 interpretations. For me, one of the greatest disappointments is that WEM has so far not updated their Soviet range. The quality of their paint is superb and it is very sad that they ended up embroiled in this "controversy" due to following the wrong advice when formulating their Soviet range.

Hi Konstantin,
to tell the truth, the acrilic AMT-11 of Akan of the chip that John has sent to me is somewhat darker than Humbrol 79, and a first sight (I hadn't the can home) I think that Humbrol 87 ( panzer grey) is closer to his chip of AMT-12, being somewhat more bluish than Humbrol 32 that has a greenish shade. Has anyone made direct comparison?


Hi Bbrought,
Very true. I hope that they make all the line new according to AKAN shades, maybe slightly lightened, including those shades that hasn't yet included in their acrilic line. Akan enamels are hard to be found outside Russia.
Regards
Massimo

I hope too :)


yep, that's true. we import AKAN paints from Russia to Hungary and enamels are flammable products, so arrangin import/customs procedure is too complicate.

However they started to produce all paint in acrylic type as well so it's a matter of time.

I wonder if anyone has contacted WEM about using updated research?  My fear is they may have bought into EP's schtick and be in that camp for better or for worse.  But then again, they are a business.  If sales of suspect colors drop off sharply, they may have to notice.

When WEM came out with their VVS colours, I bought most of the lot.  At that time I was quite ignorant of VVS colours so I thought I was getting accurate colours - now I know I wasted over $60USD on paints.  The AMT-7 Blue wasn't too bad (although too bright), but most of the rest is rubbish.  Does anybody need any "Tractor Green" or "IMUP"?  That's a good idea about letting WEM know about their colours, John.  I may just send them an e-mail kindly requesting that they redo their VVS line.  I for one, will never buy any more of their paints until they do.

Regards,

Jason

All profiles and drawings in Pilawskii's book and on his website have green AMT-12  

(http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Markings/BigGuns/YAK9k-w23.jpg)
(http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Markings/Kozhedubs_White27/La7-white27-from-factory-2colour.jpg)

WEM's AMT-12 is also green. No 11 and 12 on the following photo are AMT-11 and AMT-12

(http://modelingmadness.com/scotts/accessories/wevvsw2.jpg)

Pilawskii never explained how or where he got this green colour.  He never explained how or where he got FS equivalent for AMT-12 either.  It would have been enough for example, if he said that the green AMT-12 was based on paint observed on restored YAK-9P in Monino.  Hopefully, he will eventually learn how to write about these things.



True, Akan chips I got from Mario are extremely dark.  Nothing like the following image from scalemodels.ru forum

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/VVS%20colours/AMT-7-11-12-6.jpg)

My AMT-11 and AMT-12 chips are more like AMT-12 and AMT-6!!!!  I can?t recommend their use ?as is? on models.  :-X

Cheers,
KL

Well, gentlemen, I just sent a comment to WEM regarding their VVS colours.  I shall report on their reply.

Regards,

Jason

Wem's owner is aware of this controversy, if I don't miss he wrote a pair of posts on ARCforum asking how could a new line of colors be done. I suppose he is waiting that something more sure will emerge and maybe he is selling the already made paints before making a new line.
About WEM paints, I suppose that they can be corrected by mixing or changing their destination.
IMUP, for example, could be similar to A-28m. It is an hypothesis, it's clear that the chip of Nakrasok has became yellowish, but it's not clear how much. For what we know, this color could really be greenish, but I hope to find some confirmation on wrecks, that seem not to show any greenish tint on the undersurfaces of planes as Il-10 and Tu-2 till now.
Regards
Massimo

Massimo, if "Mr. WEM" is waiting for the "Great VVS Colour Debate" to end, he may be waiting for some time.  AKAN paints do seem to be too dark to use as is on scale models; I suppose for the moment, until someone comes out with the proper paints, "faded" for scale effect, etc., I'll stick with my Testors Model Master analogues.  I use Gunship Gray for AMT-12, but I still haven't decided what to use for AMT-11 (something of a moot point, as I haven't finished any VVS fighters).  Does anyone have any suggestions?  Testors has about 100 different shades of grey, it seems.

Regards,

Jason

Didn't John@WEM post here at some point in the past?  Would be good if he appeared here again, methinks.  If he re-does the paint line, we could give him the SWP seal of approval.   ;D

Dear Konstantin,

I've checked posts on ARC and BM forums and gotcha what you want to explain.

First of all important to note I really don't want to provoke you and don't wanna be obstructive since I'm neither a VVS expert nor pro aviation researcher. Just a scale modeller who intends to build accurate VVS planes as possible.

You said "Pilawskii is a charlatan" and there are several colours "made-up by Pilawskii" (for example AEh-4 Blue, Industrial Metal Primer etc...)

I agree profoundly with you, hard to comprehend how ppl believe him. However a question may arise, people why believe you?
You know, a casual modeller read a statement by EP and an other by you on ARC. Well, what's the truth? How could anyone verify any statement? Where to find the document that give him evidence?

There is the "Albom" somewhere in Russia and so many ppl talk-about it. Okay, I beleive them, it's an existing thing. How can I obtain or examine it?
Furthermore as far as I know Orlov & Vahlamov published an article in M-Hobby. How can we obtain it? Is there English translation of that?

So I hope you won't misunderstand my questions. I would just draw attention to you could try give more reference, link or evidence us to convince of the truth. You could suggest a way to examine the subject, how could get official docs (or copy of those) and to decide who is the charlatan?

Without these references one could beleive you, another one could do Pilawskii but both accepted a conception without seeing. In my opinion we need to get closer to our subject otherwise the controversy will continue without real arguments.

Yeah I know the language skill is an important issue as well. So many ppl - who interested in VVS aircraft - can't read Russian, especially in Western world. Would be nice to read translated articles or documents, OR at least obtain a copy of the original articles.

sincerely yours
Richard

Hi Richard,  :)


A lot of material is available on the Internet!  For example, for Orlov and Vahlamov 2008, use google.ru and type:
Авиаколлекция Окраска и обозначения самолетов ВВС СССР 1941- 1945 гг.
free download is available on dozens of websites.

A lot of period (1940es) technical literature and manuals have been scanned and are available for free!  Search for  Авиационное материаловедение for example.

Albom Nakrasok is not available, but it isn't crytical.  More important is to understand technology (types of paints), chronology (that is Vahlamov and Orlov), maybe camouflage theory.  Read everithing that is available and pieces of the mozaik will start to fit.

Read Pilawskii, don't look at the illustrations in his book only!!!  Use some logic and you will see that his methods are dubious.

Pilawskii visited Monino museum some 10-20 years ago and that's it. He even didn't have a digital camera! He connected with G. Petrov and used some photos from his collection for the book, but nowdays, thanks to the Internet, you can search photos and find much more then Pillawski has ever seen.

You don't need to know Russian; use on-line translator.

Good luck!!! :)
KL

Thank you mate!

just now started to get Aviakolektsiya books and I'm going to study soon :)

ohh and how dumb I am! just now found the translation of dec-2008 issue by Massimo here:
http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=906.msg4997#msg4997 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=906.msg4997#msg4997)

Thank god I'm such a good place:)

As promised gentlemen, here is the response I received from WEM:

Hi Jason,
 

We?re aware of the shortcomings of the Pilawskii research, but when we introduced our VVS line the work of Orlov & Nakrasok wasn?t even a blip on the radar. In order to revise our line, we would need paint chips of original samples to match.
 

Best regards,
John Snyder
White Ensign Models

They are aware of the problem, so that's a start.  Let's hope they will eventually redo their VVS colours to bring them more into line with "modern" research (some of the research reaches back to at least 1999 with V&O's articles in MHobby magazine).  It is interesting that they were unaware of Mr. Orlov's work and the Albom Nakrasok since that information had already appeared, albeit in Russian, well before they released their VVS line.  Still, let's wait and see if they correct their colours.  I do have to note that Mr. Snyder was commendably quick in responding to my enquiry.

Regards,

Jason  

Albom Vahlamov by Orlov & Nakrasok ????? - we will wait forever.  :D

following are Akan paints as represented in Akanihin's digital catalog (before we had only scanned or photographed pained schips):

(http://mdk.org.ua/369.jpg)

colours are compared with chips Massimo made for his colour table.

From post by M. Golovanov at  http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_954_start_200.html

Cheers,
KL

Hi,
I suppose that some correction will be needed.
Regards
Massimo

Hi,
I've modified some shades to make them more similar to those suggested by Akanikin's chips.
Massimo

Thanks for that! Up to now I was a little concerned about how dark my AKAN paints came out, compared to the scanned versions of the catalog that I have seen on the internet. At one point I even mailed some chips to Mario Holly to find out whether his also came out that dark. However, these digital samples are actually quite close to mine. My AMT-7 and -11 from AKAN's acrylic range still look a little dark compared to what I see on the monitor with these digital samples, but the AMT-12 is actually quite close to what I have. I still feel justified in lightening the paints very slightly for "scale effect" or whatever you want to call it, but I have learned to completely disregard my original very light thinking, which was obviously heavily influenced by Pilawskii's interpretation of very light blue AMT-7 and very light grey AMT-11. I knew for a long time that his green AMT-12 was just plain weird, of course...

For what it's worth, I've now decided on an AMT-11 to go with my AMT-12 (Testors Model Master Gunship Gray, Testors #1723, FS#36118).  It's Testors Model Master Medium Gray (Testors #1721, FS#35237).  As you can see in the photograph below (this was a test where I brush-painted the colours on a Yak-9 wing), it is a fairly-dark bluish-grey colour, which seems to fit in with Mr. Orlov and Mr. Akhanikin's research, and with the Albom Nakrasok, on which they both relied.  For now, at least, that's what I'm going to go with for the two-grey fighter scheme.  They both look darker in person, and the Medium Gray looks bluer in person.  They're still lighter than what's on the AKAN digital catalogue, but to be honest, they're both about as dark as I'm willing to get on the two-grey scheme.

Regards,

Jason

(http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx323/Learstang/AMT-11andAMT-12onICMYak-9.jpg)

Jason, these colors don't look grey at all.
Regards
Massimo

It may be your monitor, my camera, I didn't take them in daylight, etc.  I can say that even on my monitor the colours don't look like they do in person.  Here's another picture, taken in natural light that portrays them better.

Regards,

Jason

(http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx323/Learstang/AMT-11andAMT-12onICMYak-9b.jpg)

Hi Jason,
this looks somewhat better.
I suggest to use a neutral background. The camera compensates the excess of one color by 'neutralizing' all the image. You could include some other known colors in the photo, as white, black and red, to allow a comparison. Just to know, is the plastic grey?
Regards
Massimo

The plastic is white - if I were actually painting the model in the manner I normally do, I would prime it with Light Ghost Gray, then airbrush these colours on.  I'll try your suggestions on providing some other "known" colours for comparison.

Regards,

Jason

Going back to Konstantin's very helpful recapping of the various recommendations at the top of the thread, I personally like the look of the samples using 26187 for AMT-11 and 26008 for AMT-12. In a quick experiment, I came up with a couple of simple Model Master enamel mixes that look good to me and are quite close to these references:

for AMT-11, two parts 36118 Gunship Gray to one part 36231 Dark Gull Gray. This gives a bluer hue than 26187, but in the same darkness range.

for AMT-12, one part 36118 Gunship Gray to one part Black. This gives a color very close to, but very slightly lighter than, 36008.

Pip Moss

in this scalemodels.ru page, AMT-11 and AMT-12 are presented as a mix of AMT-7 and AMT-6
http://scalewiki.ru/%D0%B0%D0%BC%D1%82 (http://scalewiki.ru/%D0%B0%D0%BC%D1%82)
Was it the case in the reality ?
if it's true, those two grey had to be quite blueish isn'it ?

Xan

Hi Xan,
the directive of 1943 prescrived the use of AMT-11 and 12, but prescribed also the recipe for a mix of light blue and black to use, should the deliveries of the new colors have been delayed or unsufficient. 
It's possible that this mix was different enough from the colors that it had to replace, and this could explain the strong visibility of repaintings on many fighters of 1944.
Regards
Massimo

Thanks Massimo,

if it can interest somebody we are working in tha AMT-11/AMT-12 too in our modeler forum:
http://www.master194.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=54267&p=711856#p711856 (http://www.master194.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=54267&p=711856#p711856)
(use google translator ;))

here some pics with Akan ligtened with ocher colour, tamiya XF-57 at %20:

(http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/626910P1000460c.jpg)
Pascal's work

and mine:

(http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/170227P1000460a.jpg)

Xan

Hi all,this tread is very interesting for me that i'll go to built a 1\48 Zvezda Lavochkin la5Fn......so the discussion about Amt-11 and Amt-12 is very useful.......I have same old (but very very good!!) color brand Aeromaster and I've tryed to make a chip to know yours opinions.In the chip I 've put down the first two color Aeromaster Acrylic that like to me very close to Akah paint,then below I've put another kind of paint Model master enamel like an alternative for Amt-12.........Ciao Enrico



(http://www.pdani.it/public/KIKKO/AMT%2011-12.JPG)

Hi Kikko,
somehing is a bit strange... in the photo, 36118 looks darker than 36081, but in my FS catalogue it seems to be the opposite... However, I think that these colors are good enough.
 
Hi Xan,
all the photos of the Corsair seem to be greenish.... I suppose that the real colors are not so.

It would be interesting to make a comparison of these shades with mixes of AMT-7 and 6 made according to the recipe at Scalemodels.ru as sebstitutive colors. They could be very different.

Regards
Massimo

Enrico, as it happens I use Testors Model Master Gunship Gray for my AMT-12.  Even though it's not as dark as the AKAN AMT-12 and the Albom Nakrasok AMT-12 (which look almost black), I think it looks good, especially in 1/72nd scale.

Regards,

Jason

Hi,yes the photo don't say the truth.....the 36081 is more dark in my chip but the 36118 iis more bluish.....Tomorrow I think to try the tamiya mix suggested above......Ciao a tutti questo sito ? bellissimo.Enrico.

(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e136/Apex1701/Yak-1b/SAM_0089-1.jpg)

IMHO, still way, way too light and bright!  Camouflage scheme like this is improbable and wrong?  :-[

AMT-11 on this picture is as light as AE-9.  Light gray AE-9 was considered as de-masking for planes parked on airfields ? it would make any camouflage effectively useless on ground. You may remember how already in 1939 (during the Halhin-Gol conflict) gray and silver planes were spayed with green spaghetti to hide them on ground.  In 1940, light gray was stopped to be used on newly made planes.  In summer 1941, an order came to repaint top surfaces of all gray planes in green-black scheme.

In reality, 1943 two-gray scheme consisted of a medium bluish gray (call it slate) and a matt, dark (almost black) bluish gray.

A small request: ::)
It would be really useful if somebody mixes AKAN's blue AMT-7 and black AMT-6 in ratios indicated before.  AMT-7 and AMT-6 mixed in 1 to 1 ratio can not make light blue-gray (as seen above) for sure!
AMT-7 and AMT-6 mixes were field substitutes for AMT-11 and AMT-12.  Mixes were not drastically different then the original AMT-11 and AMT-12.  It would be very useful to see contrast between the two mixes.

Happy modeling,  :)
KL

It is a difficult theme
The found color schemes tell us the Color, and thanks to Akan they can be bought.
These contain the real, and the new shades. After the first try outs I found these rather dark.
In scale modeling we usually use the ?Scale Effect? distortion. This in scale 1/48 is about 20% lightning. I tried to do this with adding 20% white.
It came out like this. This isn?t has the dirt, dulling the weather effects etc.
My model has the colors what I used until now.
Istv?n.

(http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h257/vadasz/AMT-02.jpg)

Hi Istvan, :)

Scale Effect is also a difficult theme.  Adding 20% white to all colours used on a model would not make sense.  You did not add 20% white to black propeller, it remained black.  adding 20% white to red would make pink and you do not want pink stars instead of red stars.

-  I would add minimal amount of white to AMT-12 - keep it dark, same as propeller black
-  AKAN's AMT-11 is too dark anyway. Even with your 20% white it looks like the real thing (Slate gray!!!)

Anyway, IMHO, your La-7 is too light.  Your dark gray would be good for AMT-11.  Try the "darker version" with your next La-7 or Yak-3 project.  :)

Has anyone done a model in AKAN AMT-11 and 12?  I'd love to see one - it sounds like it would look like black (AMT-12) with extra dark sea grey (AMT-11).

Regards,

Jason

(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e136/Apex1701/Yak-1b/SAM_0089-1.jpg)
(KL)
> IMHO, still way, way too light and bright!  Camouflage scheme like this is improbable and wrong?   >:(
> AMT-11 on this picture is as light as AE-9.
(Jean)
Thanks, with your help we found another AE-9 paint formula using Tamiya's.
Also, since you did not point out that AMT-12 being wrong, I think this AMT-12 paint mix is a keeper.
Tamiya paint users will be grateful.

As for the AMT-11 test, everyone agrees this is too light.
This is why I am already planning a fourth test.

As you may have read, our Master194 forum trys to find paint mixes to depict as correctly as possible the VVS colours using various paint for scale modellers.
On page 5 of that forum (see: http://www.master194.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=54267&start=100 )
you will find the unfinished results of more than 17 months worth of trials and errors done by people involded in this project.


Jean

Excellent link, Jean!  Thank you!  It's always nice to see other people's work on VVS colours.

Regards,

Jason

Hi,I 've just shaked my paints!!!How suggested I've prepared first AMT-7:85% XF-23 +10% X-2+5% X-4.Then I've mixed this "Tamiya" AMT-7 in 50%+ 50% with XF-69 to get AMT-12 and in 70%+30% to get AMT-11.What do you think about????Ciao Enrico.
(http://www.pdani.it/public/KIKKO/Tamiya%20mix.JPG)

Hi Enrico,
they seem close enough to 35237 and 36118. Who knows if thet change in the same way when exposed to elements for long?
Regards
Massimo

Surprising results indeed.

I gather that the mix comes from  http://scalewiki.ru/%D0%B0%D0%BC%D1%82?s[]=%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0
I was thinking that the results will be much darker.

With these results we can see that my AMT-11 is too light but that my AMT-12 seems on the spot.

Thanks Enrico.

Jean

Thanks Enrico!
I expected darker AMT-12.  I'll check those ratios, 30% blue seems to high.
Scalewiki table is a compilation of everything that was available in 2007-08, it even includes some info from Pilawskii... the table hasn't been updated for years.

Thanks again,
KL

Hi Konstantin.
Here's my attempt to oblige, although I've only had time to do the 1-to-1 mix to approximate AMT-12. Only big problem: I don't own any AKAN AMT-6, so I used Tamiya Black. It mixed easily with the AKAN AMT-7, and I imagine the result isn't very different from using AKAN's AMT-6. I'm guessing black is black. Anyway, here's the picture FWIW

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Miscellaneous/i-w5gFXFM/0/f094c518/L/AMT-7%20AMT-12-L.jpg)

The two colors are very similar, but the AMT-7/Black mix is bluer while the AKAN AMT-12 has a more brownish-violet hue.

I'll try the AMT-11 mix in the next day or so.

Pip Moss

Some days ago I posted some possible Model Master enamel mixes to approximate AMT-11 and AMT-12. Well, here's a picture that shows them and another discovery I just made: AKAN's AMT-11 is very similar to Model Master British Ocean Grey, although it is somewhat darker. Also, I changed the mixing ratio of my first AMT-11 attempt from 2 parts to 3 parts Model Master 36118 with 1 part Model Master 36231. Based on what I think is a pretty successful AMT-11 mix using British Ocean Grey, I intend to try using that color with Black for a possible AMT-12 mix. I'll post again with a picture if I'm successful. Anyway, here's the picture of my results so far. I applied a light flat clear coat to all the samples so that the reflectivity would be the same. I took the picture on a white background and corrected the background to white in PhotoShop.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Miscellaneous/i-6WWq2dv/0/c06d3b28/L/AMT-11-12-L.jpg)

More to come.

Pip Moss

Hello Pip,
your AMT-12 is perfect, but as the akan one you will have too clear it...
perhaps better with tamiya XF-57 buff than with white...
Xan

Hi Xan.
I put a very small amount of clear flat on the two samples to try to make the surfaces similar. Any more flat coat begins to lighten the colors significantly, but I would certainly make it flatter if it were an actual model. I'm still intending to go with a mix of Model Master British Ocean Gray and Black for AMT-12 for my next late-war VVS project. I'll send a photo after I've done some experimenting with mixing ratio.

I don't understand what you mean about the XF-57 Buff. I only used white as a background for the picture because it made color correction in PhotoShop easier ...

Pip

After mixing several Gunze Hobby Color paint I could achieve this:

(http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h257/vadasz/002-2.jpg)

(http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h257/vadasz/001-2.jpg)

(http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h257/vadasz/0022-1.jpg)

(http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h257/vadasz/0032.jpg)

(http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h257/vadasz/004-1.jpg)

(http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h257/vadasz/007.jpg)

Istv

Nice-looking Yak, Istvan - thank you for posting!  It certainly looks darker than what we're used to, but maybe we've just become used to the wrong colours.  I must say the unmixed AKAN colours still look too dark to me.

Regards,

Jason

Hi Istvan,  :)
Nice - blue AMT-7 and blue-gray AMT-12 you applied look very good.  I would go with slightly darker AMT-12, but it's not crucial.
You could improve shape of camouflage fields; especially on the left wing.  As a reference use following 1943 draving

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/nkap-43-fighter.jpg)

Jason,
1943 colours were darker than what we are used to!  Original colours of Musee de l'Air Yak-3 are significantly darker than those used to repaint the plane in 1970es

(http://www.pyperpote.tonsite.biz/listinmae/images/stories/ListinMAE/appareils/yak/yak3/IMG_9285.jpg)

(http://www.pyperpote.tonsite.biz/listinmae/images/stories/ListinMAE/appareils/yak/yak3/IMG_9292.jpg) 

That does seem to be the case, Konstantin.  It just takes some getting used to.

Regards,

Jason

Hi the yak is too much dark for my eyes...
For the AMT-7, I use 60%Akan AMT-7, 30%white, and 10% neutral grey

(http://nsm05.casimages.com/img/2010/12/01//101201040028534317227386.jpg)

(http://nsm05.casimages.com/img/2010/12/01//101201040028534317227385.jpg)

(http://www.legang.fr/maquettes/Spitfire%20mkIXE%20xan/petites%20photos/P1070568.jpg)

XAN, Jason!
Yes, mine is dark too until now I used a much lighter grey, especially the AMT-11 (see at La-7)
The recent colors are, only include the Scale Effect but not the weathering.
I always have the same questions stuck in my head.
-how did these paint reacted to the effects of weather ( snow ,rain etc)?
-How many factories were producing these paints to the military?
Could these factories guarantee the shame shades of colors or warrant that they will keep them trough the years, because it was a problem even in the 70?s and 80?s, for example in the case of cars too?
-How stabile was the resource supply in these factories?
How were the colors influenced by the  conditions of  the  applying?
-what kind of units did the troops receive, were these mixed or they had to do it themselves.
On the photos there are a few  where you could barely make out the borders of the colors , but in other instances the difference between the two colors are as clear as it can get.
 Right now the one and only reliable source is the France Jak-3. For me this beats the paint album  too.
Konstantin!
This Jak has been made only for experimenting with colors.
The line were created by the Stankov book, unfortunately my photos doesn?t  give me a clear sign of whether is it a repainted plane or  is it a standard painting pattern.
The vertical fin enhances the possibility of the repaint.
But I?ll open a new topic for this modell, to leave this to the paintings.

Hi Istvan,  :)

Your questions really reflect views seen many times on various forums and sometimes in popular literature.  Factors you mentioned are used to explain supposed/assumed variety of colours on Soviet planes and tanks during GPW.
IMHO, effects of those factors are grossly exegerated.  Those who claim that variability of colours rely on photographic evidence and usually ignore the fact that b/w photographs are not reliable representation of colours. 


Soviet paints weathered and aged (as any other paint exposed to the elements).  Here we are talking about few months, maybe a year before plane was overpainted, or crushed or shot down.  Effects of such weathering were so small that b/w photos hardly recorded any diference.
 

V & O mentioned only two factories:  Zavod No36 Avialak (Moscow) and Zavod ?Free Labour? (Yaroslav).  Even if there were more factories, the total is probably very small and knowing how Soviet industry worked, larger portion of the production would be concentrated in few factories.


There were many problems with raw materials spec in 1942.  Some key materials were substituted with local/lower quality materials.  IMHO, it wasn?t hard to replicate shade/colour of the original paint ? it was hard to make durable, high quality paint.  Standards did exist throughout GPW, and producers had to meet them.
 

Not much?


Field maintenance units received prepared paint (in cans), paints were not mixed in field.


Borders (sharp or overspray, wide or narrow) varied in different periods and between different factories.  B/w photo contrast is a different question ? for photographers.


N-N Yak-3 No18 was made in Nov 1944, delivered to N-N regiment in May 1945.  Most of the time before May 1945, it spend stored (probably in open, covered with tarp) at Saratov factory with many other Yaks.  Paint doesn?t look bad for 6 months of exposure.



Stankov, in general, is not a reliable source.

Hth,
KL

Hi Konstantin adn Istvan,
It sounds strange that a new good plane was stored for six months in factory during the war. I think that it was utilized by some other Soviet unit in the meanwhile. This would justify all those overposed numbers painted on the fuselage.
Regards
Massimo

Yes,
When Stalin offered the yaks at the normandie-niemen's pilots, they were not new planes. They received them in Stuttgard if i'm not wrong.
the gift was quite simbolic because they were given without piece to change, so they quicly deseapered in the arm?e de l'air.

the paint we can see in the fuselage are not very clear; the plane has been repeinted almost two time by the mus?e de l'air, and to have a really good idea of the original camo, we will have to wait the wings restore work...

Xan   

OK... Some time with other Soviet unit, but most of the time at Saratov.  :)  Plane had low mileage (it was like new)  ;) when received by the French

Number 25 was factory number
Number 21 "other VVS unit"
Number 18 Normandie-Niemen tactical number

(http://www.pyperpote.tonsite.biz/listinmae/images/stories/ListinMAE/appareils/yak/yak3/IMG_9285.jpg)

cheers,
KL

Allright, but we are still waiting for the restore of MT611 AMT-12 colors...
Xan

An example of standard 1943 gray-gray fighter scheme:

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/111206195044_PDVD_118.jpg)
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/111206194559_PDVD_065.jpg)
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/111206194637_PDVD_066.jpg)
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/111206195102_PDVD_007.jpg)
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/111206194807_PDVD_068.jpg)

Is it only me, or there is the "splinter scheme" recommended by NKAP?????

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/nkap-43-fighter.jpg)

I mean, Pilawskii says that:  there are no photographs that show any VVS fighter wearing such an angular pattern application. Indeed, this scheme is anathema to Soviet camouflage in general, which tended to be organic and rounded in execution; such angularity would be completely out of character. As such, this pattern was never painted by any of the factories to match this Template.

qote from  http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Markings/NKAP/nkap.html

Hth,
KL

No, it makes two of us.
Thing is, as you know, that still so many don't know what they should be looking for. And if they do
they still don't believe it! Even if Pilawskii is/will be shut up there are "Ballbusters"
coming out of the bushes. "There was no system in VVS..." If not there was no system
in pretty much anything in USSR. That they won the GPW and became world's nuclear
power later is just, well I don't know, miracle maybe?
Cheers,
Mario

Hi Mario,
if you have something to write about Ballsbuster, why don't you do this in the forum where he posts, so he can answer?
Regards
Massimo

I posted photos primarily for Istvan (aka Ohotnyk) to show how NKAP scheme was followed on upper wing surfaces of many (probably most!!!) Yaks made after the July 1943 directive was issued.

Mario has a valid point:  many modellers (and profile artists) beleive in very loose attitude toward  the standards/regulations/orders - reality was different, Soviets were hard pressed by Nazis; they did not have time to care about standards, they fought in primitive conditions, Ivan was primitive, Ivan was illiterate peasant, etc.

Pilawskii's aproach is somewhat different:  he is in love with the subject - he doesn't think anything bad about the Ivan, but his interpretation of GPW reality incorporates stereotypes popular among many modellers.  At the end, Pilawskii will allways have readers and followers among them.

More of Pilawskii's romantic interpretation of 1943 NKAP scheme:
Grib's famous Yak-9D "22" is a classic example of an actual VVS scheme based on the NKAP fighter Template, and in the realities of production these applications tended to look like this example.

(http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Markings/NKAP/yak-example1.gif)

How did he get this pattern is unknown, photographic evidence shows classical splinters
(http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/9/proton-xx.f/0_49bf_545f8d15_XL.jpg)

In all, it should be stressed that there was no real "standard" for these patterns. Simply, many factories responded by incorporating some of the NKAP's ideas into the schemes they applied to their fighter products, and by no means whatever were these the only camouflage patterns of the 1944-45 period in AMT-12/-11 colors.

Those who read his book know that he means green/dark green "loops", brown/ochre "desert" scheme, overall "wood aehrolack", etc...

Hi Konstantin,
no doubt, EP is wrong when it states that the angular camo was never seen on photos of Yaks and Lavochkins. A wide amount of photos show straight lines, or at least an attempt to do straight lines with an airbrush operated without masks. 
In other cases, the lines are curved. One should look to the image of a single plane to see how angular, or not, the painting was.
Plane n.22 is interesting, the use of straight and sharp lines on the left wing is undeniable. But t seems that it was so on the left wing only. The fuselage and other wing shows the usual attempt to make straight lines with air brush and free hand, or even curved lines and repainting patches.
Besides, n.22 seems to have been partially repainted: the 'blue-green' on the front of fuselage isn't comparable to that of the rear fuselage. Probably this is due to weathering and repainting.
Regards
Massimo

Hi all,I'm painting my La5 Fn with the  mix color tamiya like you've suggested,only a least question: what should be the final coat finiture?I think semigloss.....or not???!!!Ciao Enrico.

Not semi-gloss!!!
AMT paints were matt.  Letter "M" in their name is for matt...  they differed from previous AII paints because talc and other additives were introduced to make them matt.
  
Hope this helps,
KL

Thak you KL!!!!!!!!!This advise is hopefull!Merry Christmas!Enrico.

Hi,
the article of Vaklamov and Orlov on M-Hobby 2/99 gives FS numbers starting with 2 for all the colors of AMT range, and beginning with 3 for al A-xx-m oil equivalents.
The drawings related to their articles on many issues give the same numbers.

http://postimage.org/image/s7srhpqc/ (http://postimage.org/image/s7srhpqc/)
http://postimage.org/image/s7zdn3pg/ (http://postimage.org/image/s7zdn3pg/)
http://postimage.org/image/s84c956s/ (http://postimage.org/image/s84c956s/)
http://postimage.org/image/s89av6o4/ (http://postimage.org/image/s89av6o4/)

Regards
Massimo

A friend of mine reworked the kikko's work, giving to the pic the right white...

[(http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/628153Tamiya20mix.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=628153Tamiya20mix.jpg)

I put those colours on that sheme; I know it's not the correct way to do, but i like the result:

(http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/186748yak9Tpintatua2.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=186748yak9Tpintatua2.jpg)

Xan

It seems good.
Regards
Massimo

Hi ,I want to show you the colours on the model.......What do you think about?Merry Christmas....Enrico.
(http://www.modellismopiu.net/m+gallerie/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=719807)
(http://www.modellismopiu.net/m+gallerie/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=719243)
(http://www.modellismopiu.net/m+gallerie/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=719809)

Undersides look good but top colors are WAY too light! And AMT-11 has a greenish shade, that's positively incorrect.
Patterns are curved instead of rectangular, hm...
Mario

Hi kikko,
as Mholly, I only like the AMT-7. the two other seems too bluish for my eyes...
Xan

Like for Mario and Xan, the upper surfaces are frankly too light for me... AMT-7 seems correct.

Pascal

Hi all,the colours are those I posted same days ago,only Amt-12 I've darkened a bit.....Over the colours I've sprayed a post fading to simulate a combact look......Thanks to all and Merry Christmas.Enrico.

If anyone is interested here is a picture of an old Accurate Miniatures IL-2 I used to test Akan paints.  I sprayed Akan amt-11 and 12 out of the bottle and photographed the model in direct sunlight.

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7157/6635741897_236108a0cf_b.jpg)

That is very interesting.  The colours look lighter than I would have thought (which is a good thing:  I've always thought that the samples of AKAN AMT-11 and AMT-12 paints straight out of the bottle looked too dark to me).  Those look similar to what I would use - Testors Model Master Gunship Gray for the AMT-12 and Medium Gray for the AMT-11.

Regards,

Jason

very impressive, it looks very good.
Could you do another pics, inside for exemple ?
Xan

Yes, it looks good! I like very much.

Pascal

Here is one shot indoors under fluorescent light.  It looks much darker indoors.  When I first obtained the paints I dabbed some on some white paper stock and thought they looked much too dark.  Spraying them on a model they look much more believable.  BTW they spray very nicely with my Iwata HPCS thinned with approx.  25% Tamiya Acrylic thinner.  I also like the plastic bottles they come in:  spill resistant and very easy to open even after multiple uses.   The bottles are a big improvement over tinlets and glass bottles from Testors etc.

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7157/6636980429_c7960b5233_b.jpg)

Yes; that's quite a bit of difference.  Still, they look better, as you say, painted on the model than they do painted on some white paper.  On paper, at least with my monitor, the AMT-12 looked almost black, and the AMT-11 was as dark as MM Gunship Gray (which I was using for my AMT-12!).  These colours, even the indoors ones, look more reasonable (to me) than what I had been seeing for AKAN.  Unfortunately these are acrylics, and I avoid acrylics like the plague when it comes to my airbrush (a Badger 150).  Last time I tried some acrylics, it killed two airbrushes (although I was able to eventually resuscitate the two, only after I'd spent another >$100USD on a new airbrush!).  I understand AKAN also have solvent-based paints; I may have to try those.

Regards,

Jason

Thanks a lot for this "excercise" which is another proof of an utmost futility to judge period camo colors from color or (even worse) b&w pictures.
Even though procured and then applied paint did not (just couldn't) look exactly as the desired standard, it (standard) really needs to be
a starting point to determine scale model color appearance, not the other way around i.e. from photographs (of any kind).
This is not only the problem of VVS coloration but applies to all other airforces, Japanese aviation being another most "cumbersome".
I wish modeling community undestood this concept much better. AKAN formulated their VVS paints based on surviving paint standards
and I don't see any reason not to trust them.
Cheers,
Mario

I agree with Mario.

The same question exists about French camouflage colours, whose an example stays on the D.520 exhibited in the Mus?e de l'Air, Le Bourget. This plane has been repainted with the paints manufacturer references. However French modellers go on to discuss about colours accuracy, comparing colour and B&W photographs...

Regards,

Pascal

All true. I admit to having tried to lighten my Akan acrylics slightly for "scale effect", but I'm puzzled when modelbuilders lighten their Akan paint just because "it doesn't look right". Doesn't look right based on what? One of the "experiments" I intended on my current project (ICM 1/72 Yak-9) was to use the Akan paint straight from the bottle (as I said, I did lighten it, but only very slightly, less than 10%), but I'm not ready to paint it yet.

John

Hi Jason.
Having experimented with Model Master Gunship Gray (36118) in comparison with AKAN AMT-12, I assure you that the Gunship Gray will look significantly lighter. I'm still standing by Model Master British Ocean Grey (maybe darkened very slightly with black) for AMT-11, and either that or Gunship Gray mixed one-to-one with black for AMT-12, again based on comparisons with the AKAN colors.

Best,
Pip

Pip, I need to give those a try.  I haven't started painting my La-5F with the two-grey scheme, although it's about ready for it, so now's as good a time as any.

Regards,

Jason

I agree with darkened Ocean grey as a possible alternative for amt-11.  Engine Grey FS36081 is  close to Akan amt-12.

Hi,
loocking this pic , Ithought about the discution we had here about the splinter scheme.
this pic tooken the day of the return of the normandie-niemen in France shows yak-3 and we can see the wing's scheme witch doesn't often matter:

(http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/948663nnbourget.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=948663nnbourget.jpg)

1) this is not a definitive and general true at all, but anyway in those planes, ther was no splinter scheme.
2) the camo scheme is quite the same for all the planes and pilawskii scheme is quite right acording with that pic...

Xan

Hi Xan,
an excellent image to illustrate the theme of NKAP template. The pattern is coherent enough, the colors change much, probably due to weathering. Thank you for posting this photo.
Regards
Massimo

It is interesting to note the very different contrast in colours between different aircraft.  Obviously in this case it's not due to different film or lighting conditions.  Also note the shadow of the photographing aeroplane (it looks like a Fieseler/Morane-Saulnier Storch).

Regards,

Jason

Hi Xan,

First, Pilyawskii?s drawing is probably based on that very same photo.

Second, the problem is what Pillawski writes about NKAP template:

Pilawskii Quoted from http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Markings/NKAP/nkap.html
1.   These suggested schemes, in fact, were just that-- they were recommendations. They were not requirements in any sense of the word, neither was their use enforced by the Government at any time.
2.   However, there are no photographs that show any VVS fighter wearing such an angular pattern application. Indeed, this scheme is anathema to Soviet camouflage in general, which tended to be organic and rounded in execution; such angularity would be completely out of character. As such, this pattern was never painted by any of the factories to match this Template.
3.   In all, it should be stressed that there was no real "standard" for these patterns. Simply, many factories responded by incorporating some of the NKAP's ideas into the schemes they applied to their fighter products, and by no means whatever were these the only camouflage patterns of the 1944-45 period in AMT-12/-11 colors.


Xan, consider following:  about half of all Yaks produced were camouflaged in ?Gray-gray? scheme - close to 20,000 planes were painted this way!!!
What is the single, most relevant piece of information related to the coloration of those 20,000 ?gray-gray? planes?

Answer:  it is the NKAP instruction and the little diagram that accompanied it!!!!
(http://aviacollections.ru/wp-content/uploads/color_vvs/oboznacheniya_opoznavatelnye_znaki_1.jpg)

What Pilavskii writes is BS!  If Hornat/Vahlamov/Orlov hadn?t published this diagram, western modelers (including poor Pilavskii) would still wonder whether Yaks were brown-gray or brown-green

(http://oldmodelkits.com/jpegs/Heller%20250%20Yak3.JPG)

(http://www.vintagekit.altervista.org/foto/foto_aerei/AIRFIX_YAK9.jpg)

I do you know it ?


not a problem for me,  I don't believe what EP says and I'm not a defender of his theories...



My personal search is the true camo of four planes , I'm not trying to say a true for 20 000 planes !

those planes are:

the de la poype' yak-9T:

(http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/444328532.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=444328532.jpg)

the pouyade's yak-9T:

(http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/445130pouyade.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=445130pouyade.jpg)
(http://nsm05.casimages.com/img/2012/04/26//1204260150471476839769809.jpg) (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=1204260150471476839769809.jpg)

the de saint phalle yak-9:

(http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/719029photoyak9nn12.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=719029photoyak9nn12.jpg)

and the Iribarne yak-9:

(http://nsm02.casimages.com/img/2009/11/01//091101102900534314765450.jpg)

and I didn't wanted to prove anything, this pics remind me the discution we had about this subject , not more...

why do you write that?
are you a nostalgic of th western, and eastern worlds confrontation ? it doesn't make sens!
do you think I don't respect Hornat, vahlamov and orlov's work ?
in the 60's 1940 french camos were ridicoulous in a lot of models in France, and I'm sure that russian modelers did mount yak painted in brown and green!!!

Xan





 

Xan,
I just feel sick when modellers miss how wrong is that general picture that Pilawskii presents - no regulations, girls painting loops, etc.

Thanks to Pilawskii we are now wasting time on an irrelevant and artificial question: was there a Russian splinter camouflage or not?  ???


when you write something like this, it looks you are defending Mr. Pillawskii...

I still think that NKAP template is more relevant for your Yak-9s than 1945 photo....  ::)

We still have people on other forums presenting colour chips of "AEh-15", "Russian Dark Brown", and "Russian Light Brown" as being valid GPW colours. There's a couple of current threads on ARC where this "information" appears. I even posted links for Massimo's main research index page and his colours page, but I think I was wasting my time - the same guy started a new thread today, with another "Russian Dark Brown" colour chip in it. It's kind of annoying to read some of the stuff that appears elsewhere; for example, how aircraft factories were sometimes forced to finish aircraft in just any paint they could find because they had run out of the correct colour, and the paint factory couldn't deliver more! It's REALLY annoying to see things that make it sound like the Russians were hardly more than a bunch of disorganized barbarians; it gets overlooked that these disorganized barbarians with their crude Yak-9's and T-34's kicked Nazi butt all the way back to Berlin in 1945.

John

Amen to that, John!  I too get sick of all the rubbish there is out there about the Soviets.  For being such incompetent, illiterate peasants, they did pretty well against the Nazi supermen.

Regards,

Jason

I apologize for taking this thread off-topic like this, but some of them post this garbage with such confidence that what they say is true - I still remember reading a thread somewhere where the question was whether A-20 bombers supplied under lend-lease were used by the VVS with their original American seat/shoulder belts or were the belts replaced with Russian-style equipment. One of the "experts" answered quite specifically that most Russian aircraft of that period had nothing more than lap belts!  ::)

I posted a rather rude reply myself, including an image of a pre-war Russian biplane with the shoulder harness clearly visible...

John

To continue off-topic for just one more post, I thought the Soviets just used a rope looped around an old vodka box (which they used as a seat, not having real seats to sit on), with the rope tied around their waist, as they finished off the last of the vodka.  And let's not forget the stupid old Soviets using a ring and bead sight on the Shturmovik.  Of course, this was done after it was found that the PBP-1 reflector gunsight didn't work that well against ground targets, and had the rather unfortunate habit of braining pilots upon crash-landing.  From these Russophobes you never get the real reason behind some of the apparently primitive equipment the Soviets used (they worked, they didn't freeze at 50F below zero, they were easy to repair, etc.)  It's always frustrating dealing with ignorance, John.

Regards,

Jason

Hi Konstantin,
The work of EP is full of errors, no doubt, but we have to take in account that the work of Vaklamov and Hornat was nearly unknown in the west, and that 'colors of the falcons' was published after the site of EP and has copied some things from him; besides it is scarcely known.
So, many western modellers knew of black-green and grey-grey camouflages from the site of EP, else they could have continued to paint models in brown and green for some years more.
Regards
Massimo

This could be true for modelers borne in 1980es and 1990es?  But, it?s really irrelevant:  black-green and gray-gray schemes were known long before Pilawskii!!!
Yak-3 in French Musee de?lAir was painted in gray-gray scheme in 1974

(http://www.royfc.com/aircraft/album/Yakovlev/slides/yak-9.jpg)

John Weal did use black-green and gray-gray schemes for some of his profiles in mid and late 1970es
(http://www.small-wonder.org/Books/Soviet_Airforce_Fighters_part_1_1.jpg)
(http://www.small-wonder.org/Books/Soviet_Airforce_Fighters_part_2_1.jpg)

Most of the profiles published in Finnish ?Red Stars in the sky? series in late 1970es and 1980es were actually correctly painted!
(http://www.armchairgeneral.com/rkkaww2/sources/_Separate_books/Aviation/Soviet/Aviation_Tietoteos_Red_stars_sky_1.jpg)
(http://www.armchairgeneral.com/rkkaww2/sources/_Separate_books/Aviation/Soviet/Aviation_Tietoteos_Red_stars_sky_2.jpg)

This was probably related to illustrations that appeared in Soviet Union in 1970es and 1980es in magazines like ?Modelist-konstruktor?, ?Krila Rodini?, ?Aviatsiya i Kosmonavtika? etc.

(http://www.armchairgeneral.com/rkkaww2/sources/_Separate_books/Aviation/Soviet/Sovetskie_istrebiteli_velikoj_otechestvennoj_vojny.jpg)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-xY-oRVB_ubE/TeobXTbUy3I/AAAAAAAAAVY/bq2Ra2DoUOY/s1600/Yak-9R.jpg)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-cCF_1CEN01U/TeobXO1kRgI/AAAAAAAAAVQ/DCWAVLbB-pE/s1600/Yak-7B.jpg)
(http://mirageswar.com/uploads/posts/2011-03/1301592025_kr_1987-05.jpg)


The problem was (than as it is now) to weed out information that wasn?t accurate, like this one
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-gdeQmuDj8xU/TeoZAuOlejI/AAAAAAAAAUI/lSyL9LwC9J8/s1600/Yak_3.jpg)

Massimo,
can you tell how did Pilawskii help?  Did he point to errors, or did he promote them?  Did he point to the accurate sources (Vahlamov and Orlov) or he denied them?  Did he make anything clear, or he just confused modelers???

Hi,
some black- green and grey-grey profiles were known since the late '80s, aside a lot of brown-green profiles. So, one could have thought that they were the exception, not the rule. EP has simply perpetuated misconceptions born before him aside some right things. But if it was so easy to make better for an English-speaking author, why hasn't anyone made this 20 years ago?
Regards
Massimo

In western literature, black-green and grey-grey profiles were published since 1970es, not late '80es...  older forum members will confirm this.

yes, it was imposible for western authors/profile artists to recognize Soviet standards before Vahlamov & Orlov published their works based on primary sources (in late '90es).
Only Pilawskii knows why he based his works on outdated information and why he denied Vahlamov & Orlov.

Hope this explains few things,
KL

Hi,

I've just found these pics in the Yefim Gordon's Lavochkin's Piston-engined Fighters:

(http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/178496P1090089.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=178496P1090089.jpg)

(http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/806588P1090088.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=806588P1090088.jpg)

It is the "etalon" La-7, and it wears the splinter scheme... I've painted my Lavrinenkov's La-7 with this scheme, because the few pics I've seen about the 9 GIAP show the same drawings (work in progress):

(http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/981188amt12gauche.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=981188amt12gauche.jpg)

Pascal

Nice photographic confirmation of the splinter scheme, Pascal.  Keep us posted on your model, (or do you already have a thread for that?).

Regards,

Jason

that's a pic of feltzer yak-9:

(http://www.normandieniemen.com/rubriques/histoNN/bios/feldzer/images/yak9.jpg)
the splinter is evident too...
as Pascal , Idecided to applied it one of the three yaks I am doing because this plane's pic seems to have the same scheme

(http://nsm05.casimages.com/img/2012/04/15//1204151216371476839719872.jpg) (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=1204151216371476839719872.jpg)

I used Akhan paints as they are, but the pic's colour is a little bit lighter than the reality
(http://nsm05.casimages.com/img/2012/04/23//1204230951251476839755630.jpg) (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=1204230951251476839755630.jpg)

(http://nsm05.casimages.com/img/2012/04/23//1204230951251476839755633.jpg) (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=1204230951251476839755633.jpg)

(http://nsm05.casimages.com/img/2012/04/23//1204230951251476839755631.jpg) (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=1204230951251476839755631.jpg)

the model is not ended yet, I will post more pics

Xan

Looks great - very realistic! The Akan paints look really good.

John

Yes, very nice, Xan!  The splinter camouflage looks good - different than what you normally see.

Regards,

Jason

Following is Xan?s post at the French modeling forum at http://www.master194.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=64797&start=525

Here the pattern shown in the official guidelines of August 1943:
(http://aviacollections.ru/wp-content/uploads/color_vvs/oboznacheniya_opoznavatelnye_znaki_1.jpg)

 That's what happens in color, this image comes from scalemodels.ru forum.
(http://nsm05.casimages.com/img/2012/04/15//1204151223111476839719881.jpg)

According Pilawskii, this diagram has not been applied.  this photo of yak-3 at the dork bourget him right:
(http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/948663nnbourget.jpg)

 other totally refute this argument see the wing of the aircraft in this photo:
(http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/9/proton-xx.f/0_49bf_545f8d15_XL.jpg)

 Tessatori certainly has the proper judgment when he says that this scheme was so well implemented but spray painted, which "rounded corners" in the strict sense ...

Few comments:

According to Pilawskii, NKAP pattern was always ?organic?, never angular.  Pilawskii also says that there were other AMT-11 + AMT-12 patterns for fighters.  Pilawskki insists that other colours were in wide use in 1944-45: AII green, AII Dark Green, AII Brown, AII Light Brown etc.  Pilawskki insists that other schemes like Buchanova?s loops, hoops, boops, etc were very popular in VVS in 1944-45.

Massimo?s page about 1943-45 fighter camouflage has more about ?serpentine scheme? than about NKAP scheme.

In my opinion, between summer 1943 and May 1945 there was only one standard, official scheme ? NKAP scheme!!!!  All fighter planes made during this period complied with this scheme, ie between 20,000 and 30,000 fighters were painted in two-gray scheme!  There was no ?South Front scheme?, there was no ?Single gray scheme?, nothing else but NKAP 1943 scheme.

In 1944-45 factories fighters were sprayed, no doubts about that.  Spraying was much faster than painting with brushes.  Sprayed surface was smoother. Templates were not used (they are mentioned only in Il-2 production).  In other words, it was a free hand application and variations were natural.  Sometimes corners were rounded, some lines were curved and width of the ?overspray? varied.

So, even if lines are curved and corners are rounded, it is 1943 NKAP scheme!!!

I don?t think that the new term ?Russian splinter scheme? is correct ? word splinter wasn?t used to describe this scheme, Orlov and Vahlamov never used this term?

KL
       

Konstantin, a couple of things: First, I don't understand what you are saying in the sentence above the overhead photo ("dork bourget him right"?)

Second, looking at that photo, there appears to be a lot of variation in the camouflage scheme on the wings. The plane in the center foreground just to left of the overhead plane's shadow, and the one to its left, have a swirl on the starboard wings that's hard to see as just a variation of the NKAP 1043 scheme.

Pip Moss

It's Google French: I think it's about Yak-3s at the Le Bourget airfield and how Pilawskii is right   :o



For me, all those planes were camouflaged according to 1943 NKAP scheme.  As I said:  sometimes corners were rounded, some lines were curved and overspray varied.

It is also posible that some (or most?) of those planes have been repainted in the field.

If it isn't 1943 NKAP scheme, what is it?  "South Front"? Loops?  Serpents?

KL

Hi,
it is clearly the scheme of 1943, and the pattern is much more uniform than the most of black-green patterns, even if there are both rounded and angular variants represented.
The most interesting part is the variability of the contrast on the planes, perhaps due to fading, perhaps to some variability in stocks.
Regards
Massimo

My god!  konstantin if I thought Pilawskii was right di you think I wil write in this forum ???
you take a little piece of what I wrote and just speak about that...

the sens of the sentence is that this pic shows plane without angular scheme...
but we speak about this pic in this topic and i find your argumentation right about it, I don't understand why do you speak again about it!!!
Do you think ik I didn't agree with you I would paint  my model like that ?

(http://nsm05.casimages.com/img/2012/04/24//1204241213351476839759362.jpg)

I even agree with you in your opinion about the Akan paint (I appplied them without mixing in another colour)
I would prefer if you told me what did you think about the model I shown
I put ended podel pics in this topic too:

http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1337.0 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1337.0)

about the splinter word use , I thing it's a generic way to understand the type of camouflage. Germans surely neither use that world who is often used to qualificated german's scheme...

Xan

Sorry if my words sounded offensive.  That wasn't my intention... :-\

Although I had to repeat myself, I believe this is one of the more useful treads on this forum...  I hope those who read it will understand that AMT-12 wasn't green, that both grays were darker than represented on most profiles, that 1943 scheme was widespread.

I see following as a progress: from WEM colours and Pilawskii's influence
(http://www.legang.fr/maquettes/Yak-9DiribarneXan/grande%20image/5.jpg)

To more realistic AKAN colours and camouflage based on documents
(http://nsm05.casimages.com/img/2012/04/24//1204241213351476839759362.jpg)

"Small step for mankind, giant leap for VVS modelling"  :)

Hi Konstantin,
it's not kind to show the photo of a model, as an example of how not to make things, without the permission of the author.
About the colors, the photo of the planes at Bourget should discourage from being rigid on the shades. It don't show the hue of the AMT-12, but AMT-11 could appear as light as the model depicted.
Regards
Massimo

yek,yek, massimo, don't worry, the first model is mine  ;)
it's the first yak-9 I did, the iribarne's plane, who was basque, as I am...
congretulation konstantin to find it!
I have to repeint it and will do a diorama with four planes of the first squadron of the normandie regiment in dubrovka may 1944, in the begining of the second campaign...
 This basque pilote make me discover tthe Normandie-niemen, ant the normandie niemen make discover the VVS.
Of course, I started with pilawskii book, before I started reding this forum and website...

Xan

We all have to start somewhere, Xan.  To be honest, that's a very nice looking model, except for the greenish WEM AMT-12.  I went out and bought most of WEM's VVS paint set before I realised they were based on questionable research.  I've recently repainted in black/green an La-5 I did a long time ago in brown/green.

Regards,

Jason

Konstantin, please don't put EP's words in my mouth (South Front...Loops..Serpents...) -- I'm not intending in any way to bring him into this discussion. I grant that the majority of the planes in the overhead photo adhere reasonably closely to the basic shapes in the 1943 NKAP scheme. However, I'm seeing several planes where the patterns look different enough to be more than just a change in curves or overspray. I'm looking, for example, at the starboard wing of the second plane from the front in the closer line (just to left of overhead plane's shadow) where instead of the wingtip being AMT-11 with a pretty straight left demarcation, the AMT-11 is brought around in almost a circle with AMT-12 between it and the tip. Or another case in point, the port wing of the third plane from the front in the closer line where the AMT-12 area closest to the cockpit is not broken by a "river" of AMT-11 running towards the cockpit, but rather there is an unbroken slanted demarcation between the AMT-12 and the AMT-11 to its left.

I'm not challenging the assertion that camouflage schemes were generally governed by the 1943 NKAP diagram, just noting some what I perceive to be exceptions.

Cheers,
Pip

hello , i'm still loocking for colours in gunze or tamiya (with a maximun of two paints to mix)...

for AMT-7, I mixed RLM 65 (H67)80%,  an intermediate blue (H45) 20%:

(http://nsm05.casimages.com/img/2012/05/14//1205140822101476839852472.jpg)
compare with Akan AMT-7:
(http://nsm05.casimages.com/img/2012/05/14//1205140820181476839852471.jpg)
it's evidently not blueish enough...

later I mix the RLM 65 to tire black, 70%/30% for the AMT-11 et 50%/50% for the AMT-12

(http://nsm05.casimages.com/img/2012/05/14//1205140820181476839852469.jpg)
compare with Akan:
(http://nsm05.casimages.com/img/2012/05/14//1205140820181476839852470.jpg)
here too, it could be more blueish, but i find  the result interesting because we can see the darkness of the colors are quite the same...

I heard about the directiv who says that in case of of AMT11 and 12 paint shortage, AMT-7 and AMT-6 could be mixed
(70%/30% and 50%/50%).
Does someone know more about that notice ? have we the real text, or better  an original document pics?
thank  ;)

Xan

Pascal told me Orlov and vakhlamov speak about that in their book, I will have a look tonight..
Xan

Hi Xan,
If I remember well, they write that the thing can be done in case of need, but they don't give the proportions in the booklet. I've seen the proportions on a table of Scalemodels.ru (I think) but I don't know their source. Perhaps it's some article of the same authors on some old M-hobby issue; the booklet resumes many of those works in a briefer form and has removed some interesting info, as the FS matches of the colors.
Regards
Massimo

I have to say that the Akan paints look much better when applied to a scheme than they do as stand alone chips.  The difference between AMT 11 and AMT 12 is slight when comparing chips but a larger coverage area seems to accentuate the contrast in the 2.  I had been using Model Master Russian Topside Blue for AMT 7 and the percentage mixes with black for the others but will have to reconsider a new substitute and adjust mix some new batches as they now seem light compared to what has been shown here.