Sovietwarplanes

Great Patriotic War Aviation => Captured planes in Soviet markings => Topic started by: marluc on October 05, 2011, 04:28:06 AM



Title: Fw-190 with soviet engine???
Post by: marluc on October 05, 2011, 04:28:06 AM
Hello:

This was extracted from CMK book Photo Hobby Manual,Special Drawings,Focke Wulf Fw-190 Part 1,it?s about a re-engined Focke Wulf fighter,they call it the Fw-190 M-82:

(http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z27/marluc_foto/Capturados/img933.jpg)

Is there any record or documents to support this?
Greetings.

Martin


Title: Re: Fw-190 with soviet engine???
Post by: learstang on October 05, 2011, 06:12:29 AM
Martin, I don't have any photographs, unfortunately, but I do have a couple of drawings.  Hopefully someone on this site has some photographs of this unusual and attractive aeroplane.  Interestingly, I've read that new-built Fw-190's are using Shvetsov M-82's in place of the original BMW 801's so the M-82 seems to be a good fit for the Fw-190.

Regards,

Jason

(http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx323/Learstang/FW-190-Ash-82Example-1.jpg)

(http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx323/Learstang/FW-190-Ash-82Example2.jpg)


Title: Re: Fw-190 with soviet engine???
Post by: marluc on October 05, 2011, 02:07:10 PM
Hello Jason,thanks a lot for the profile and drawing.As far as I know,there are no photographs of this modified Fw-190.Greetings.

Martin


Title: Re: Fw-190 with soviet engine???
Post by: KL on October 05, 2011, 08:16:35 PM
Hi Martin/Jason,  :)

Text is suspicious - "reconstruction took place by 1946...".

What would be the purpose of this project?  ???  Luftwaffe was defeated, no Fw-190s in the sky.  There was a plenty of wrecks and captured BMW engines in Soviet occupation zone (Soviets occupied main Focke-Wulf factory in Kotbus).  Main interest was in German jets and rockets, nobody cared about Me-109 and Fw-190 wrecks...  Did Americans re-engine any captured Fw-190s?

Why wasting time and effort, when jets (and modern planes like La-9, Tu-2 and Tu-4) were urgently needed?

End of the text can not be true "at present it should be preserved in the Museum..." - there are/were no preserved Fw-190 in Russian museums!!!  If there was one, it would have been sold/smuggled to the West in last 20 years.

IMHO, an urban legend!

cheers,
KL


Title: Re: Fw-190 with soviet engine???
Post by: learstang on October 05, 2011, 08:30:25 PM
You may very well be correct, Konstantin.  It's always suspicious when there are no photographs (ever seen a photograph of an IL-2 in tractor green?).  A pity though, as it looks great as a Soviet 'plane with a Soviet engine.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Fw-190 with soviet engine???
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on October 06, 2011, 12:10:40 AM
Hi all,
the interest in re-engining a FW-190 is the same for which Germans re-engined a Spitfire with a Daimler-Benz engine: making a comparison between two different types, it is not clear if the difference in performance is due to the engine or to the airframe.
In this way, they can obtain a complete comparison:
-how a FW performs with both engines allows a comparison between engines;
-how M-82 FW-190 performs compared to La-7-9-11 allows comparison between the airframes. Take in account that postwar La-9/11 were much more similar to FW-190 than to La-7.
After said this, I don't know if the plane really existed or not, but there was a good reason for it to exist.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Fw-190 with soviet engine???
Post by: KL on October 06, 2011, 01:19:58 AM
This looks like BMW-801  ???

(http://forum.exler.ru/arc/uploads/127/post-1203410166.jpg)

the interest in re-engining a FW-190 is the same for which Germans re-engined a Spitfire with a Daimler-Benz engine: making a comparison between two different types, it is not clear if the difference in performance is due to the engine or to the airframe.


If Luftwaffe won the Battle of Britain and Germans occupied Great Britain, they probably would not re-engine that captured Spitfire. 

Later in the war, Germans captured La-5FN.  Why didn't they re-engine it with BMW-801?  It would make an interesting plastic kit... ;)

-how a FW performs with both engines allows a comparison between engines;
-how M-82 FW-190 performs compared to La-7-9-11 allows comparison between the airframes. Take in account that postwar La-9/11 were much more similar to FW-190 than to La-7.

After May 1945 Soviets lost interest in Fw-190.  Soviet engineers had enough time to study Fw-190 airframe and BMW engine during the war.  In 1946 they were busy with first generation jets.  La-9 was put in series production in 1946 (not Fw-190 with ASh or BMW engine!).  To say that La-9 was more similar to Fw-190 than to La-7 is a bit far strech.

After said this, I don't know if the plane really existed or not, but there was a good reason for it to exist.

in 1945-46 there was no reason for this project... ::) 

Regards
KL


Title: Re: Fw-190 with soviet engine???
Post by: KL on October 06, 2011, 01:51:11 AM
Martin/Jason/Massimo,

Check: http://randalf.cz/sw/ru/Fw_190_M82.php

Last sentence:  BTW: Cel? to je bl?bol, tohle vymysleli tali?ni v časopise jako apr?lov? ?ert :-)))

Google translation:
BTW: It's all gibberish, that Italians invented the magazine as an April Fool joke :-)))
 :-X


Title: Re: Fw-190 with soviet engine???
Post by: marluc on October 06, 2011, 04:14:21 AM
Why wasting time and effort, when jets (and modern planes like La-9, Tu-2 and Tu-4) were urgently needed?
This is exactly what I thought,in 1946 re-engining of a german plane was pointless.Thanks guys,greetings.

Martin


Title: Re: Fw-190 with soviet engine???
Post by: learstang on October 06, 2011, 06:11:38 AM
Yes, very funny - ha, ha, ha.  There's enough disinformation out there about VVS aeroplanes without people deliberately disseminating it.  For all I know that's how all this nonsense about the "ubiquitous" brown/green camouflage got started.  It was all just William Green pulling our leg!  Now how to get back at the people who did this M-82 Fw-190 "joke"...  I know, find out who originated the "joke" and e-mail him his mother is dead.  That'll give him a good larf.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Fw-190 with soviet engine???
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on October 06, 2011, 07:20:56 AM
Interesting.
But do the author of the page know for sure that it was a joke, or is this his own joke?
Of course, I don't sustain the existance of a plane on which I haven't informations, but showing a photo of another plane isn't a fair proof.
Germans re-engined the Spitfire, this is a fact. What they would have done, had they won the battle of Britain, this is an opinion.
In 1946, La-9/11 with the same engine was still in production. Russians could have had the curiosity to know if they had made a better airframe of the old German plane, or not.

Massimo


Title: Re: Fw-190 with soviet engine???
Post by: Walker on October 06, 2011, 12:29:06 PM
Someone is going crazy from idleness...


Title: Re: Fw-190 with soviet engine???
Post by: John Thompson on October 06, 2011, 07:47:39 PM


To say that La-9 was more similar to Fw-190 than to La-7 is a bit far strech.


Like the La-9, "urban legend" says that the Grumman Bearcat and the Hawker Sea Fury, and possibly others, were "inspired" by the FW-190. Actually I think I did read somewhere (somewhere credible, that is) that the Hawker designers took a close look at a captured FW-190, but calling that anything more than professional curiosity is another stretch.


Someone is going crazy from idleness...


Pretty funny, Musa!  :D Add me to that list - actually I'm just taking a break from building Mr Kozyrev's resin I-16 type 5! I hope all is well with you - you will need plenty of energy to deal with all the requests from Scalemodels.ru to design resin parts for the Zvezda Yak-3... ;)

John


Title: Re: Fw-190 with soviet engine???
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on October 06, 2011, 08:06:55 PM
Hi John,
Quote
Like the La-9, "urban legend" says that the Grumman Bearcat and the Hawker Sea Fury, and possibly others, were "inspired" by the FW-190. Actually I think I did read somewhere (somewhere credible, that is) that the Hawker designers took a close look at a captured FW-190, but calling that anything more than professional curiosity is another stretch.
the Bearcat is clearly a scaled-down Hellcat, no any resemblance to FW-190.
The Sea Fury is an evolution of Tempest, that was derived by Typhoon, that has resemblance with the Hurricane. Again, no any resemblance with FW-190... apart, perhaps, the prototype of Tempest  that had the fan inside the spinner, a thing already seen on the prototypes of FW-190, AR-240 and I-185.
In the case of the La-9. it's a bit different. The whole airframe, being metallic, isn't derived from the wooden one of previous Lavochkins. The resemblance between La-7 and 9 is few more than the engine and armament. It is of the same size and power of the FW-190, and has an obvious resemblance. I don't mean necessarily that it was copied, but a comparison between the two types with the same engine is meaningful.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Fw-190 with soviet engine???
Post by: KL on October 07, 2011, 04:58:39 AM
1:48 Conversion set offere by Antares models at  http://www.antaresmodels.com/verReview.asp?id_review=1296354659

(http://www.antaresmodels.com/productos/ANT-47/parts.JPG)
(http://www.antaresmodels.com/productos/ANT-47/MVC-625F.JPG)

equaly interesting "Fw-190 version"
(http://www.antaresmodels.com/IMAGES/Mvc-053f.jpg)

From the same kitchen:
(http://www.antaresmodels.com/IMAGES/Mvc-769f22.jpg)
(http://www.antaresmodels.com/IMAGES/Mvc-028f.jpg)
(http://www.antaresmodels.com/IMAGES/Mvc-530f.jpg)

German WW II Atom Bombs, in 1:48 !!!  ???  at
http://www.antaresmodels.com/verReview.asp?id_review=410458764
(http://www.antaresmodels.com/productos/ANT-18/Mvc-026f.jpg)


Title: Re: Fw-190 with soviet engine???
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on October 07, 2011, 07:36:40 AM
Hi Konstantin,
nice kits.
But it's not a fair proof that a plane never existed.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Fw-190 with soviet engine???
Post by: KL on October 07, 2011, 07:58:18 PM
But it's not a fair proof that a plane never existed.

Massimo,
?Fw-190F M-82? is an esoteric subject, like German A-Bomb model.
How do you prove that German A-Bomb didn?t exist?  Do you need to prove it didn't exist?

Or let?s put it this way:  Regardless of all the historical evidence that Germans didn?t/couldn?t make an A-Bomb, there is a ?nice? model of German A-Bomb.  $22.00 only!

Happy modelling,
KL

PS. What is the purpose of "Luftwaffe 46" fantasies anyway???


Title: Re: Fw-190 with soviet engine???
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on October 07, 2011, 09:01:25 PM
Hi Konstantin,
Quote
?Fw-190F M-82? is an esoteric subject, like German A-Bomb model.
How do you prove that German A-Bomb didn?t exist?  Do you need to prove it didn't exist?
It is clear that the German A-bomb didn't exist else they would have utilized it.
The parallel with an hypothetic test plane that could have been made in few weeks utilizing parts of other planes is merely arbitrary. I don't say that  it existed, but it can't be stated otherwise on the base that a resin aftermarket producer has made the conversion aside to a fantasy a-bomb.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Fw-190 with soviet engine???
Post by: KL on October 07, 2011, 09:16:37 PM
Hi Massimo,
So far we have not seen any evidence the plane did exist.

Drawing of a plane (Photoshopped in 2 minutes!) and resin conversion set, doesn't mean the plane actually existed.

Cheers,
KL



Title: Re: Fw-190 with soviet engine???
Post by: Walker on October 08, 2011, 02:37:14 AM
+1  pure Luft'46


Title: Re: Fw-190 with soviet engine???
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on October 08, 2011, 07:23:25 AM
Hi Konstantin

Quote
Drawing of a plane (Photoshopped in 2 minutes!) and resin conversion set, doesn't mean the plane actually existed.
Nor that it didn't exist. A thing is to say that it could be fruit of fantasy, another that it was surely so. A so strong status should be positively proved.

Hi Walker,
Quote
+1  pure Luft'46
Eventually VVS '46.

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Fw-190 with soviet engine???
Post by: Graham Boak on May 17, 2014, 09:11:58 PM
Just to pick up on one dropped comment: there is no doubt that studying the Fw190 did have considerable effect on the later British and US radial-engine fighter designs.  Some of this was in hidden details, such as the colour-coding of different systems and the way details had been arranged for ease of manufacture and maintenance, but the key point was that Tank had managed to fit a powerful radial engine onto a fighter without suffering from base drag problems or an excessively fat fuselage.  Partly this was the tight cowling with frontal fan, and partly it was the way that the exhaust pipes had been clustered into groups and carefully placed for maximum benefit.  This was done so that the flow from the exhausts filled the overlap behind the wide engine and along the slim fuselage sides, otherwise a large source of base drag from rearward facing areas.  This was considered so important that Bristol abandoned development of the Centaurus with its traditional forward-facing exhausts and collector ring (itself a step forward in drag reduction at the time of introduction) in favour of the exhausts coming from the rear of the engine.  Sadly, the redesign took so long that this highly promising engine was too late for the war.  The same design feature can be seen on the Bearcat (as opposed to the Hellcat) although here less advantage has been gained from a slim fuselage.  Turbocharging of course to some extent will nullify or even remove this benefit, which is perhaps why the US was less interested.

The Japanese were to utilise the same technology more directly in the re-design of the D4Y Judy and Ki61 Tony for radial engines, with specific attention paid to the one Fw190 delivered to Japan.  The Ki61 to Ki100 is clearly a rather more awkward arrangement than any new design would be.

It is worth noting that Lavochkin was ahead of the other Allied and Axis fighter designers in introducing the same effect, no doubt thanks in part to having a more suitable engine to hand and the more immediate need for a superior fighter, but any direct influence has not been acknowledged, as far as I know.  I feel the engineering solution speaks for itself.