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Great Patriotic War Aviation => Ilyushins => Topic started by: barneybolac on October 15, 2011, 07:58:53 AM



Title: IL-2T.
Post by: barneybolac on October 15, 2011, 07:58:53 AM
What if any information exists on the torpedo version of this plane? I have seen profiles & model kits & books referencing them but nothing really solid as photos or actual combat use?

Regards:Rodney.


Title: Re: IL-2T.
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on October 15, 2011, 01:29:11 PM
Hi Rodney,
the same thing for me. Never found any proof of its existance and operative use. In my idea, all its armour would have been wasted if employed with a long-range weapon as a torpedo.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: IL-2T.
Post by: learstang on October 15, 2011, 05:33:34 PM
From what I've been able to determine, the IL-2T never existed, except in profile form and kit form, in other words it only existed in the imagination!  I think it is about as factual as the use of brown/green camouflage on Shturmoviks.  I also have never seen a single photograph of one.  The Naval air units used the IL-4 and the A-20 Boston for torpedo attacks, whilst the IL-2 would use bombs, rockets, and gunfire for anti-shipping purposes.  The IL-2 carrying such a large weapon would have been extremely unwieldy, and would be at the very limit of its load-carrying capability (it was usually restricted to around 1,300 lbs. although one IL-2 experimentally carried nearly 2,000 lbs. of disposable ordnance).

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: IL-2T.
Post by: barneybolac on October 16, 2011, 05:16:38 AM
Thank you.


Title: Re: IL-2T.
Post by: barneybolac on November 06, 2011, 04:35:39 AM
From what I've been able to determine, the IL-2T never existed, except in profile form and kit form, in other words it only existed in the imagination!  I think it is about as factual as the use of brown/green camouflage on Shturmoviks.  I also have never seen a single photograph of one.  The Naval air units used the IL-4 and the A-20 Boston for torpedo attacks, whilst the IL-2 would use bombs, rockets, and gunfire for anti-shipping purposes.  The IL-2 carrying such a large weapon would have been extremely unwieldy, and would be at the very limit of its load-carrying capability (it was usually restricted to around 1,300 lbs. although one IL-2 experimentally carried nearly 2,000 lbs. of disposable ordnance).

Regards,

Jason
A flight SIM game I play there is a fellow that plays as well who's Grandfather was an IL-2 Pilot & was forced to become a rear gunner for some indiscretion he did not sure what.

 He was reading the information I gave him about Stepanyan & his wild paint scheme. His name is Alex & wanted to see the photos of his IL-2.

Alex is also Armenian like Stepanyan so he was very interested in this plane. I also gave him the information with the Red Falcons link about Stepanyan.

He was surprised as to how Stepanyan was sinking war ships with a IL-2. Alex's grandfather had long passed away so he asked his father how this was done & since his grandfather had told his son about all his war exploits. He told him about the torpedo carrying ability of the IL-2T.
This is a link he found from Russia. I used Google translator & it is a terrible translation so I just left the Russian link.

http://www.airwar.ru/enc/sww2/il2t.html

It just may be possible that they really did use them.


Title: Re: IL-2T.
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 06, 2011, 06:57:45 AM
Hi Rodney
I see. Thank you for posting. Reports seem credible, but the lack of any document is suspect.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: IL-2T.
Post by: learstang on November 06, 2011, 06:50:42 PM
Absent photographs, I still find the existence of torpedo-carrying IL-2's to be very suspect.  I don't know how much Soviet torpedoes weighed, but similar torpedoes with other countries weighed 1,800 to 2,000 pounds or so.  Even if the torpedo were 1,600 pounds, it would be difficult for a Shturmovik to carry one into the air.  It wasn't like the Shturmovik could be easily lightened - the front fuselage armour, for example, was impossible to remove as it wasn't just an integral part of the structure, it was the structure.  Properly lightening the Shturmovik to where it were able to carry a torpedo and still have anything approaching a useful range seems to me would have involved extensive redesign, which would not have happened with the Shturmovik (Stalin didn't like anything that interfered with the production of the IL-2).  And with perfectly useful torpedo-carrying aircraft such as the IL-4 and the Boston, there would have been little need for a torpedo-carrying IL-2.  I am, however, open to evidence.  If someone can come up with a convincing photograph (I don't mean one of the heavily-retouched photographs so typical of the Soviet Union) then obviously I will have to reconsider my opinion.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: IL-2T.
Post by: Russell M on March 04, 2012, 06:07:16 PM
Does anyone know if the Il-T that is sold by Modelist is a straight wing or arrow?  I have no interest in building it as a Il-2T but I can't seem to find the ex Dakoplast kit in the swept wing version anywhere and would pisk one or more of these up if so.


Title: Re: IL-2T.
Post by: John Thompson on March 04, 2012, 07:50:10 PM
Hey Russell - welcome aboard! I tried a few searches but couldn't find anyone offering the Modelist Il-2T who actually put up sprue images, and I haven't got one to check. I also looked at Eastern Express; their swept-wing Il-2's are reboxings of the Toko kit, not Dakoplast. FWIW, an easy "field mark" is one-piece prop = Toko; three separate blades = Dako/Modelist, as well as other differences, of course. Maybe Jason will know; sorry I wasn't more help!

Speaking of Jason, while I was blundering around the Internet I stumbled across this - c'mon - you know you want one!  :D
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330677923711&ih=014&category=421&ssPageName=WDVW&rd=1

John


Title: Re: IL-2T.
Post by: learstang on March 04, 2012, 08:13:17 PM
Welcome to the site, Russell!  I think most representations of this probably spurious IL-2 have them as arrows; although I have some of the Dakoplast kits and re-brandings, such as Modelist, and Eastern Express, I don't have any of the IL-2T's (I don't think Eastern Express even makes one; their arrows may all be Toko re-brandings as John says).  However, whilst looking at the Dakoplast/Modelist artwork in the Book of Armaments (otherwise known as my still-in-progress IL-2 Modelling Guide), they depict an early straight-winged two-seater on the box, with the short antenna mast and the long gunner's canopy.  Whether or not that corresponds to the plastic on the inside, I'm not certain.  You might try and look on eBay for one (I don't recall seeing one lately) and see if the buyer might not take a look inside.  John, regarding the licence plate, yes I do need that, but they have to correct the paint scheme of course (that looks like RAF Interior Green, not AMT-4), and get rid of that blasted metal fuselage!

Regards,

Jason 


Title: Re: IL-2T.
Post by: Russell M on March 04, 2012, 10:59:14 PM
Thanks John and Jason, I've been a member for 1 1/2 years I was surprised to see that I had never posted before!  In my searches through the web the pst week I have found 1 mail order site that lists the swept wing kit in a Modelist box and they show an availability in 21-90 days so perhaps a good question is where are the molds?  After working on the straight wing kit  for the past 2 weeks I can see the accuracy and attention to detail that was taken during it's developement.  On my particular build I am using some of the Quickboost parts and Eduard brass designed for the Eduard and Academy kits.  The wing/fuselage joint on ny build has been dramatically improved by a small change in the constrution sequence. 

Which leads me to a question,  if these kits were to be re-released in a boxing to include a resin cockpit and exhausts, etched brass (instument panel, belts, etc) and decals with accurate paint schemes what do you feel the sales viability would be?  I am leary of the single seater but I think both versions of the 2 seater should sell in a run of 2000 kits.  Any ideas?


Title: Re: IL-2T.
Post by: learstang on March 05, 2012, 01:01:12 AM
Russell, I'd buy such a kit in a heartbeat, and I suspect John would also.  If it were marketed in Central/Eastern Europe, I suspect 2000 kits would be sellable.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: IL-2T.
Post by: John Thompson on March 05, 2012, 01:15:46 AM
After working on the straight wing kit  for the past 2 weeks I can see the accuracy and attention to detail that was taken during it's developement.  On my particular build I am using some of the Quickboost parts and Eduard brass designed for the Eduard and Academy kits.  The wing/fuselage joint on ny build has been dramatically improved by a small change in the constrution sequence. 
 

Sounds interesting - I haven't looked at your WIP thread on the 1/72 forum since your first post, but I'll certainly check it again soon!

Which leads me to a question,  if these kits were to be re-released in a boxing to include a resin cockpit and exhausts, etched brass (instument panel, belts, etc) and decals with accurate paint schemes what do you feel the sales viability would be?  I am leary of the single seater but I think both versions of the 2 seater should sell in a run of 2000 kits.  Any ideas?

Mmmm... Don't want to be a wet blanket, but I think you'd be depending very heavily on the hard-core enthusiast ("nut") market for sales. And considering how Academy is supposed to be (finally) going ahead with their two-seater (Il-2m?) this year, as well as another 1/72 two-seater (Il-2m3, IIRC) promised by Trumpeter, you'd have some stiff competition. I know that the Dako Il-2 is very good, but is it up to Trumpeter- and Academy-class competition, even with the added "bling"? Especially when the goodness of the Dako kit isn't widely known (like so many things about VVS modelbuilding...  ::) ). Good decals may or may not be a big draw, considering how the Authentic sheet, plus the ones from Viktor Povinsky, are already out there (I don't know if Viktor's done a two-seater sheet yet, though). It's a tough call. I'd probably buy one, but I'm hardly a typical kit consumer, and one obsessive VVS buff doesn't constitute much of a market sample!

John


Title: Re: IL-2T.
Post by: John Thompson on March 05, 2012, 01:19:00 AM
Okay, make that TWO obsessive VVS buffs... And of course, Jason has a good point - Europe might be more receptive than other parts of the world.

John


Title: Re: IL-2T.
Post by: learstang on March 05, 2012, 01:30:42 AM
Russell, John makes some good points.  We're hardly representative buyers here, but then again, you are aiming at people interested in the VVS.  I'd love to see Academy come out with their straight-winged two-seater, but they've been sitting on those for years so we'll see.  If you got good press on a Russian site like scalemodels.ru, and marketed them as the only wooden-winged examples on the market, who knows?  Of course price enters into it - I suppose the Academy kit will sell for $15 to $20, and the Trumpeter kit for about the same.  However, if you want to do a production run of two, you've got it made with John and me.  Sign us up!

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: IL-2T.
Post by: Russell M on March 05, 2012, 02:48:32 AM
Here is my logic, the Il-2 is the most produced aircratft of all time and has been poorly served by model companies as have been most VVS subjects.  I know there has been a general concensus that those subjects don't sell and I have been trying to get an understanding of why.  I think a lot of it has to do with the Cold War and the revisionist history that accompanied that period and the lasting after effects. I think here in the West we suffer the from the lack of understanding of both the understanding of the importance of the role played by the VVS in keeping Luftwaffe forces occupied that would have otherwise been used to stem the tide of our own strategic and tactical air forces.  That lack of understanding extends to both unit structure, deployment and operational schemes and markings.  As it relates to modeling, average Joe modeller builds what's available (as he does in most cases) while most serious modellers shy away from VVS subject matter because of a clear answer for color and or markings.  The key to any release would have to be accurate decals, paint guide, and color call outs.  I have been considering both the Il-2 and Yak-9 from Dakoplast as a sort of "profopack" release, and while neither is ideal I think the Il-2 shows more promise for a few reasons.  The primary appeal is that the molds exist and are to a standard that rivals the best of that short run producers from the Czech Republic.  As far as I know the only aftermarket ever produced for the Il-2 was the NeoOmega cockpit which is no longer available. 

Sales in Eastern Europe would be essential, but I think the extras would sell it in the West.  The key is to find the molds and see what it will cost to contract a run of kits in those numbers.  I would like to hold the cost to the $20-25 range.  The Academy kit MSRP was $22.50 so the 2 seater will be at least that although I haven't seen anything from Academy saying that they intend to bring it out this year, judging by the cost of recent Hobby Boss kits the same size that kit will be at least in price range. 


Title: Re: IL-2T.
Post by: learstang on March 05, 2012, 04:20:59 AM
Here is my logic, the Il-2 is the most produced aircratft of all time and has been poorly served by model companies as have been most VVS subjects.  I know there has been a general concensus that those subjects don't sell and I have been trying to get an understanding of why.  I think a lot of it has to do with the Cold War and the revisionist history that accompanied that period and the lasting after effects. I think here in the West we suffer the from the lack of understanding of both the understanding of the importance of the role played by the VVS in keeping Luftwaffe forces occupied that would have otherwise been used to stem the tide of our own strategic and tactical air forces.  That lack of understanding extends to both unit structure, deployment and operational schemes and markings.  As it relates to modeling, average Joe modeller builds what's available (as he does in most cases) while most serious modellers shy away from VVS subject matter because of a clear answer for color and or markings.  The key to any release would have to be accurate decals, paint guide, and color call outs.  I have been considering both the Il-2 and Yak-9 from Dakoplast as a sort of "profopack" release, and while neither is ideal I think the Il-2 shows more promise for a few reasons.  The primary appeal is that the molds exist and are to a standard that rivals the best of that short run producers from the Czech Republic.  As far as I know the only aftermarket ever produced for the Il-2 was the NeoOmega cockpit which is no longer available. 

Sales in Eastern Europe would be essential, but I think the extras would sell it in the West.  The key is to find the molds and see what it will cost to contract a run of kits in those numbers.  I would like to hold the cost to the $20-25 range.  The Academy kit MSRP was $22.50 so the 2 seater will be at least that although I haven't seen anything from Academy saying that they intend to bring it out this year, judging by the cost of recent Hobby Boss kits the same size that kit will be at least in price range. 

Actually, Russell, in my research for my IL-2 modelling guide, I've uncovered a surprising number of aftermarket sets for the IL-2 in 1/72nd scale, such as from Eduard, Equipage (wheels), Falcon (canopies), etc., although many are out of production or otherwise hard to obtain.  However, your observations are I think correct.  Compared to equally and less important Western Allied and Luftwaffe subjects (as I've said before on this and other sites, do we really need another sodding Bf-109E, in any scale?), the IL-2 has been underrepresented both in terms of modern kits and accessories.  I think the Dakoplast moulds are a good start; they are accurate, and have good surface detail.  The masters were obviously done by someone who did their research.  They are not the easiest kits in the world to build, but with limited-run, and that's what you're talking about here, that's to be expected (anyone who expects Hasegawa-quality from limited-run, and limited-run VVS kits at that is an unrealistic idiot).  What sells them to me is that they have the correct surface coverings - no metal fuselages here, and they and their rebrandings are the only game in town when it comes to wooden-winged Shturmoviks, which accounted for roughly half of all IL-2 production.  I think your observations regarding the pricing are also correct; I believe $20-$25USD for a good, accurate, correctly marked and detailed Shturmovik would be very reasonable.  Again, as John has pointed out, we're hardly unbiased.  After seeing kit after kit have that wretched metal fuselage, and seeing a monstrosity like that Airfix kit still being released, I'm starved for good IL-2 kits in 1/72nd scale, especially a straight-winged two-seater.  The Toko kit is a decent kit, and I've been able to get good results with it, but I definitely think there's room for a first-rate straight-winged two-seater kit representing the wooden-winged variant (and a wooden-winged arrow also).

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: IL-2T.
Post by: Russell M on March 05, 2012, 08:09:31 AM
As I said finding who currently has possesion of the molds will be the key. The previous project I had tried to put together that was not a problem.  Eduard is the standard for etched brass and they have artwork to work from for the Il-2, their are a number of comanies to solicit resin bids from. It is facinating to put these deals together and when the right opportunity comes together I intend to procede.  I'd like to put 1 or 2 things together using existing kits to finance some new mold subjects and have the molds made by one of the Czech companies. There are a number of VVS subjects I think could be produced but I don't think it would be financially feasible to rely on just those subjects.  One other improvement I can see is using a better quality of plastic, the plastic in the kit I'm building has a rubbery quality to it. 


Title: Re: IL-2T.
Post by: bbrought on March 05, 2012, 10:23:28 AM
Does anyone know if the Il-T that is sold by Modelist is a straight wing or arrow?  I have no interest in building it as a Il-2T but I can't seem to find the ex Dakoplast kit in the swept wing version anywhere and would pisk one or more of these up if so.

Hi Russell. I built the Modelist IL-2T. At the time I didn't know any better and actually built it with the torpedo and using "pilawskii" colours... It still looked nice though. The sprues say "Dako", so unless something changed in the 8 years or so since I bought it, it is definitely the Dakoplast moulds and it is indeed the arrow wing version. I would recommend you use aftermarket decals though.

It has been a while since I built it, but I also seem to remember the kit used a soft white plastic. For some reason, it is quite heavy. The detail is very nice, but I remember the fuselage/wing join was a little tricky. Otherwise, and with a little patience, it will build into a nice two-seat "arrow".

Let me know if you want me to check anything on the model. Due to some damage from a move, the torpedo and the brown/green paint, I would be too embarrassed to photograph it now. I might still have the instructions, in case you are interested in a scan?

Regards,
Bennie


Title: Re: IL-2T.
Post by: Russell M on March 05, 2012, 03:29:47 PM
Thanks Bennie, I was primarily trying to find what version was in the box as the arrow kits don't seem to be avaiable.  That info is very helpful.


Title: Re: IL-2T.
Post by: bbrought on March 05, 2012, 03:42:54 PM
Yes, it is definitely an arrow - at least in mine. Keep in mind I bought it about 8 to 10 years ago.