Sovietwarplanes

Great Patriotic War Aviation => Prewar types during the GPW => Topic started by: Saivila on December 12, 2011, 07:46:30 PM



Title: I-16 Red or Yellow 30?
Post by: Saivila on December 12, 2011, 07:46:30 PM
Does anyone have photos of this one?

(http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/6398/i16mark24mladshiyleyten.jpg) (http://img838.imageshack.us/i/i16mark24mladshiyleyten.jpg/)

(http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/3803/184595px.jpg) (http://img403.imageshack.us/i/184595px.jpg/)

I-16 Mark 24
286 IAP
Lt. Ivan K. Bratushki
Leningrad front, Ladoga Area
Summer 1942

Any information of usage of Colour "4BO" - FS 34102 ?


Title: Re: I-16 Red or Yellow 30?
Post by: xan on December 12, 2011, 09:59:01 PM
Forget 4BO. This paint was use in ground military cars.
the I-16 you speak about is paint in AII green and AII blue with AMt-6 added paints
Xan


Title: Re: I-16 Red or Yellow 30?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on December 12, 2011, 11:32:15 PM
Hi Saivila, hi Xan,
I've found the photo on M-hobby 2/99 p.16, an article of Vaklamov and Orlov.
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i16/i16painting/red30.jpg)
The drawing below is very well made, and the finish is fully matt.
Note the unusual wire aerials from the tail to the right sides of the fuselage and to the right wing.
The comment on 4BO is from the authors, it is reliable.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: I-16 Red or Yellow 30?
Post by: KL on December 13, 2011, 01:28:40 AM
Hi everybody,
Xan is absolutely right - 4BO was an army camouflage paint for tanks, artillery, helmets etc.  It was an oil paint and as such it wasn't apropriate for use on fabric covered planes as I-16.  Even it's use on all metal planes is questionable, no solid evidence so far!!!

IMHO, 4BO on your profile is used as colour description only.  As a reference, as something that most readers were familiar with (standard Army olive green paint used for 30-40 years).  AMT-4 had the same colour as 4BO, so authors may have reffered to AMT-4 too.

Cheers,
KL 


Title: Re: I-16 Red or Yellow 30?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on December 13, 2011, 06:53:14 AM
Hi KL,
I don't know if Vaklamov is right or not, but in the same page of LK he uses the same color on an Il-2 calling it 'AMT-4' (FS 24151, FS 24102) used aside AMT-7 (FS-26190). Vaklamov has died, but Orlov is well alive, one could ask explanations to him.
Or maybe he means that the AMT colors are semigloss, as one can suppose by the first number : 2= semigloss, 3= matt, while FS34102 is matt. I suppose it's a question of weathering of the surface.
On the other hand, Akanihin makes different paints for aviation 4BO and AMT-4, and writes on his article that there was a nitro version of 4B for ground vehicles.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: I-16 Red or Yellow 30?
Post by: xan on December 13, 2011, 08:55:23 AM
hi everybody
why paint AMT-4 upon the AIIgreen? just because of the vernish finition? it's allways possible but I find it quite strange...
Anyway the diference between the two paint for us modelers is not enormous...

to answer at the second question, in the pic massimo puted on line, the 30 number seems really the same colour than the star.
Xan
 


Title: Re: I-16 Red or Yellow 30?
Post by: Saivila on December 13, 2011, 09:59:41 AM
Thanks for the photo. I know what is 4 bo but i ditn't know much about it's use
as an aircraft paint. Where when on why?  Green really looks quite dark on this pic but
that number 30 is without a doubt painted same Red colour as stars.
It's better get quiet than speak holes in my head but. Aviation museum in Finland,
you can see 12 Bristol Blenheims cooling flaps and offically all they are painted on same  General color
Field Green ,Winter 509 , FS 34096 .  in reality some are brown and some are near grass green ,
but every flap is in different shade.? P.S I'm colourblind


Title: Re: I-16 Red or Yellow 30?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on December 13, 2011, 11:16:05 AM
Maybe the color was made matt by its age... red should be gloss, but here it appears as matt.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: I-16 Red or Yellow 30?
Post by: KL on December 13, 2011, 06:05:07 PM
Instead of guessing colour (and its reflectivity) from b/w photo, it would be more usefull to date the photo
  • If photo was taken in 1941, original, factory AII Green is more likely
  • If photo was taken in 1942, there is a posibility that the plane was overhauled and repainted in AMT paints

Since profile capture says July 1942, this is probably overhauled I-16, i.e. plane re-painted in AMT paints.
 
It would be interesting to compare this I-16 with other planes of the 286 iap in summer 1942.

Photo is probably a propaganda photo - one from a series made by a war correspodent.  It would be interesting to know who was the correspodent.

Guessing colours from black-and-white photos is unproductive or contraproductive.  Photos have documentary value only when story behind them is understood.

Hth,
KL


Title: Re: I-16 Red or Yellow 30?
Post by: KL on December 13, 2011, 06:23:27 PM
I know what is 4 bo but i ditn't know much about it's use
as an aircraft paint. Where when on why?

If you want to be on the safe side, you should assume that 4BO was NOT used on planes.  It wasn't used on planes before GPW, nor after GPW.  During the war, in factories and overhaul shops only aviation paints were used.

Happy modeling,
KL


Title: Re: I-16 Red or Yellow 30?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on December 13, 2011, 08:19:23 PM
Hi Konstantin,

Quote
Instead of guessing colour (and its reflectivity) from b/w photo, it would be more usefull to date the photo

If photo was taken in 1941, original, factory AII Green is more likely
If photo was taken in 1942, there is a posibility that the plane was overhauled and repainted in AMT paints

Since profile capture says July 1942, this is probably overhauled I-16, i.e. plane re-painted in AMT paints.
 
It would be interesting to compare this I-16 with other planes of the 286 iap in summer 1942.

Photo is probably a propaganda photo - one from a series made by a war correspodent.  It would be interesting to know who was the correspodent.

Guessing colours from black-and-white photos is unproductive or contraproductive.  Photos have documentary value only when story behind them is understood.
being not known if the plane was repainted or not, this doesn' state much more.
My guess is that it wasn't repainted, because the division line between green and blue has the same shape of prewar livery. So, AII green is likely.

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: I-16 Red or Yellow 30?
Post by: KL on December 13, 2011, 09:45:49 PM
Quote
My guess is that it wasn't repainted, because the division line between green and blue has the same shape of prewar livery. So, AII green is likely.

I don't think that "ramp" matters...  check http://luftwaffeinprofile.se/bcrsno7.html

Marks (ie Pilawskii  ;D) says:
Polikarpov I-16 Mark 24, Mladshiy Leytenant Ivan Bratushko, 286 IAP, Leningrad - Lake Ladoga area, Summer 1942.
Camouflage
Upper surfaces: AMT-4 (Green), AMT- 6 (Black).
Undersides:AIIg (Light-blue).
 ;)


Title: Re: I-16 Red or Yellow 30?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on December 13, 2011, 10:01:56 PM
Well, all is possible of course, but if the plane was fully repainted, why are the red stars and the number matt? AII red should be gloss, unless it's old, and I don't know of matt red paints for markings in Soviet use.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: I-16 Red or Yellow 30?
Post by: KL on December 14, 2011, 05:59:35 PM
Well, all is possible  of course, but if the plane was fully repainted, why are the red stars and the number matt? AII red should be gloss, unless it's old, and I don't know of matt red paints for markings in Soviet use.

some things are more possible, some less possible.  Pink or yellow are impossible.  In summer 1942, it was very possible to find an overhauled I-16 on frontline.  The possibility to find AII Green insted of AMT-4 in factories on new planes was much lower, this might have been different in overhaul depots.

Why are the red stars and the number matt?  They look matt on the photo, they were not nesesarilly matt in reality.  Could be the lighting...  If photographer task was to capture reflectivity of stars, he would have found better angle.  Unfortunatelly, his interest was pilot - plane was decoration in the background.

Cheers,
KL


Title: Re: I-16 Red or Yellow 30?
Post by: KL on December 14, 2011, 06:14:16 PM
Some history, some background information about 286 iap and Jr. Lt. Bratushko!

286 iap was formed in fall of 1941 from the graduates of Chugaev Fighter School.  The oldest, regiment commander P.N. Baranov was 35, the youngest pilot Obertasov wasn?t 18 yet. None of the pilots had any combat experience.

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/286iap/P_N_Baranov.jpg)
286 iap commander P.N. Branov

When formed, regiment was equipped with old I-16s, later it received Yak-1s.  On 5-6 Oct 1941 regiment flew from Voronezh to the Leningrad Front to Kaivaksa airfield.  Regiment?s main task was to escort transport planes which flew supplies to the besieged Leningrad.  

(http://13army.school252.ru/images13/karta.jpg)
(http://13army.school252.ru/images13/most.jpg)
(http://13army.school252.ru/images13/tylaero.jpg)

At the end of October, regiment moved to Komendantskii airfield within the besieged Leningrad.  For the next 14 months regiment fought from the various Leningrad airfields.

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/286iap/l286.jpg)
Winter 1941-42, 286 iap pilots and I-16 in temp white wash

Pilots of the 286 iap fought heroically protecting their transports, but suffered heavy loses: by February 1942 one third of all the pilots was lost.  By the end of 1942 only four pilots of the original regiment survived.  In Jun-Jul 1943, 286 iap was disbanded.

On May 28 1942, six 286 iap I-16 confronted 70 German planes.  Although outnumbered, Soviet pilots attacked and shot down 3 He-111s.  One Soviet pilot was wounded and had to make forced landing.
This combat made six VVS pilots famous, all six were decorated, two received HSU gold star.  This combat was the reason why they were photographed 6 weeks later.

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/286iap/6_pilots_286iap.jpg)
Six vs seventy:  Ustinov, Obiralov, Tatarchuk, Bratushko, Gorbachov.  Wounded Kotelnikov was in hospital

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/286iap/Tatarchuk.jpg)
Squadron leader Tatarchuk

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/286iap/Komisar_Bondar_Komesk_Tatarchuk.jpg)
Tatarchuk greeted by squadron commissar Bondar

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/286iap/Bratushko.jpg)
Pilot Jr. Lt. Bratushko, July 10, 1942

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/286iap/Ustinov.jpg)
Pilot Ustinov.  Photo was taken (most likely) on the same July 10 when Bratushko was photographed.  Note crudely over-painted area behind pilot?s shoulder.  Paint was clearly brushed.  Cockpit door looks like new, still in factory paint.

Hope this helps.  
KL

PS:  Modeling based on b/w photo interpretation only is boring? ;)

13 Air Army and the Leningrad Airlift (air bridge in Russian):  http://13army.school252.ru/aerodrom.html
286 iap:  http://allaces.ru/cgi-bin/s2.cgi/sssr/struct/p/iap286.dat
Air-bridge book:  http://blokada.otrok.ru/library/most/index.htm
6 vs. 70 air battle:  http://airaces.narod.ru/all13/obiralov.htm
158 iap:  http://foto.mail.ru/mail/helix27/82

Оригинальная подпись: "Участник воздущного боя (6 против 70) мл.л-т Братушко И. 10.07.1942г.
Оригинальная подпись: "л-т Н.Устинов ? участник боя 6 против 70. В боях сбил 3 н-ф самолета." (Вероятно дата снимка, как и у мл.л-та Братушко И. 10.07.1942г.)



Title: Re: I-16 Red or Yellow 30?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on December 14, 2011, 06:17:37 PM
Quote
Why are the red stars and the number matt?  They look matt on the photo, they were not nesesarilly matt in reality.  Could be the lighting...  If photographer task was to capture reflectivity of stars, he would have found better angle.  Unfortunatelly, his interest was pilot - plane was decoration in the background.
In my idea, the curved surface is the ideal to put in evidence the reflex of the sky. But if you say so...

Quote
PS:  Modeling based on b/w photo interpretation only is boring?

Many things are boring

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: I-16 Red or Yellow 30?
Post by: KL on December 14, 2011, 07:04:41 PM
Quote
PS:  Modeling based on b/w photo interpretation only is boring?

Many things are boring

Just joking.  :)  I hope you found information about 286 iap interesting.  It helps to understand colours...
KL


Title: Re: I-16 Red or Yellow 30?
Post by: xan on December 15, 2011, 12:55:34 AM
In summer 1942, it was very possible to find an overhauled I-16 on frontline.  The possibility to find AII Green insted of AMT-4 in factories on new planes was much lower, this might have been different in overhaul depots.

Were the I-16 still produced in summer of 1942?
I thought they weren't, that's why I was thinking about AII green...
If they were, OK, the green had to be the AMT-4...
Xan


Title: Re: I-16 Red or Yellow 30?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on December 15, 2011, 03:59:00 PM
Hi Konstantin, hi Xan,
I see, you mean that you mean that if the plane of Ustinov shows signs of repainting, the plane of Bratushko was likely repainted. It is possible.

I'm interested into the photos of the Li-2s, I am just collecting photos and I have this version of one :

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/li-2/li-2camo/li2lc.jpg)

and there is something different on the rudder, I wonder why.

regards

Massimo


Title: Re: I-16 Red or Yellow 30?
Post by: KL on December 15, 2011, 06:01:17 PM
I'm interested into the photos of the Li-2s, I am just collecting photos and I have this version of one :

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/li-2/li-2camo/li2lc.jpg)

and there is something different on the rudder, I wonder why.

It looks like (overpainted?) star... ???

(http://13army.school252.ru/images13/most.jpg)


Title: Re: I-16 Red or Yellow 30?
Post by: learstang on December 15, 2011, 06:44:23 PM
Interesting photograph, Massimo - I'm glad to see you're working on the Li-2.  Konstantin, your enhanced photograph seems to show an overpainted star - at least that's a reasonable guess.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: I-16 Red or Yellow 30?
Post by: KL on December 15, 2011, 07:48:21 PM
Were the I-16 still produced in summer of 1942?
I thought they weren't, that's why I was thinking about AII green...
If they were, OK, the green had to be the AMT-4...

Last I-16s were made in 1941.
Factories 21 and 153 made about 100 I-16s in 1941.  Two-seat UTI-4 remained in production: more then 900 were made in 1941, plus 83 that were made in 1942.

Last I-16s made in 1941 were painted in glossy AII Green, those were made before June 1941 Camouflage Directive.  This may or may not be relevant for summer 1942 I-16s ? for the following reasons:

In 1941 VVS had lost thousands of first line planes, at the same time factories were evacuated to the East and it took some time to re-instate production.  In those conditions every plane became valuable.  Damaged planes, old planes and planes from schools were overhauled and sent to the front.  Overhauled planes were common in VVS units in 1942; those planes were flown before units received new planes from evacuated factories.

This 1941-42 effort by depots and workshops was so important that it was recorded even on propaganda photos:

(http://13army.school252.ru/images13/i-16.jpg)
I-16 shot down near Ladoga Lake was overhauled and in few days it flew again

(http://crimso.msk.ru/Images6/AM/AM04-4/8-2.jpg)
Mig-3s overhauled in workshops of the besieged Leningrad

Factory 51 (Moscow) became an I-16 overhaul depot:

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/3be02f4720a7.jpg)

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/605843254_cc7e35d702.jpg)

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/z1-20.jpg)

(http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/5/photoarch.36/0_16912_73cee7f7_L.jpg)

(http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/3707/photoarch.3b/0_169fa_9df75216_L.jpg)

(http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/3707/photoarch.3c/0_16a49_b4656edf_L.jpg)

(http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/3009/photoarch.3d/0_16a88_8ac01225_L.jpg)

If Bratushko?s plane was photographed in summer-fall 1941 it would be straigt forward ? original factory AII green.  In summer 1942 it become more complex?

Original paragraph from http://13army.school252.ru/aerodrom.html
В те сентябрьские дни 1941 года, когда Государственный комитет  обороны принял постановление об организации воздушной связи между Москвой и Ленинградом, воздушный коридор превратился в арену жесточайших схваток, когда каждый самолёт был на вес золота. В ту пору, авиазаводы находились в пути, а те, что эвакуировались только налаживали серийный выпуск боевых машин.
В этой ситуации рабочие авиа мастерских совершили подвиг. В предельно короткий срок они восстановили повреждённые и сбитые на нашей территории самолёты.


Title: Re: I-16 Red or Yellow 30?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on December 15, 2011, 10:20:14 PM
The rudder should be the usual location for the stars on this type. The photos of the Li-2 show relevant differences on the fuselage too. I fear that one of the photos was heavily photoshopped.
About the I-16 in overhauling shops: they seem forthemost painted in a light color, but it doesn't seem white. On the other hand, stars shouldn't be painted on primers. What could it be?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: I-16 Red or Yellow 30?
Post by: learstang on December 15, 2011, 10:31:45 PM
Massimo, could it just be the bright, artificial lighting in the factories?

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: I-16 Red or Yellow 30?
Post by: John Thompson on December 15, 2011, 11:02:45 PM
In summer 1942, it was very possible to find an overhauled I-16 on frontline.  The possibility to find AII Green insted of AMT-4 in factories on new planes was much lower, this might have been different in overhaul depots.

Were the I-16 still produced in summer of 1942?
I thought they weren't, that's why I was thinking about AII green...
If they were, OK, the green had to be the AMT-4...
Xan


This might be useful; it's a table of aircraft production numbers by type and factory during the GPW:

http://www.onairpower.org/docs/Soviet_Aircraft_Production_by_Aircraft_Type_and_Factory,_1941-1945

John

Edit - Hah! Then I actually looked at the table myself, and noticed that it doesn't even include the I-16! Well, bookmark it in case you need it in the future...  :-[


Title: Re: I-16 Red or Yellow 30?
Post by: John Thompson on December 15, 2011, 11:08:42 PM
About the I-16 in overhauling shops: they seem forthemost painted in a light color, but it doesn't seem white. On the other hand, stars shouldn't be painted on primers. What could it be?
Regards
Massimo

The stars seem unusually large - possibly they were non-standard markings painted over the primer especially for a publicity event such as a photo shoot for a newspaper?

John


Title: Re: I-16 Red or Yellow 30?
Post by: KL on December 16, 2011, 12:02:10 AM
The stars seem unusually large - possibly they were non-standard markings painted over the primer especially for a publicity event such as a photo shoot for a newspaper?

(http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/1/rata16.1/0_bd6_2113d020_orig)
an example for overhauled I-16 and oversized red stars


Title: Re: I-16 Red or Yellow 30?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on December 16, 2011, 08:33:47 AM
Now that I note: it's a pair of white planes on a ground without snow. Not thought to last for long time, it seems.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: I-16 Red or Yellow 30?
Post by: learstang on December 16, 2011, 07:03:37 PM
In summer 1942, it was very possible to find an overhauled I-16 on frontline.  The possibility to find AII Green insted of AMT-4 in factories on new planes was much lower, this might have been different in overhaul depots.

Were the I-16 still produced in summer of 1942?
I thought they weren't, that's why I was thinking about AII green...
If they were, OK, the green had to be the AMT-4...
Xan


This might be useful; it's a table of aircraft production numbers by type and factory during the GPW:

http://www.onairpower.org/docs/Soviet_Aircraft_Production_by_Aircraft_Type_and_Factory,_1941-1945

John

Edit - Hah! Then I actually looked at the table myself, and noticed that it doesn't even include the I-16! Well, bookmark it in case you need it in the future...  :-[

The important thing, of course, is that it includes the IL-2.  Thank you for the link, John!

Regards,

Jason