Sovietwarplanes

Massimo,
an addition for your Li-2 camouflage evolution page
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/li-2/li-2camo/li2lc.jpg)
This plane shows a more complex three-shades camo; here, the demarcation lines are strongly oblique and more suitable to break well the shape of the plane.
Strangely, no any red star is visible on the rudder.

The photo was taken before 1943 and 3-colour camouflage scheme - at http://crimso.msk.ru/Site/Arts/Art3838.htm the photo is dated in 1942
(http://crimso.msk.ru/Images6/MA/MA99-4/21-3.jpg)

the plane was camouflaged in green-black, similar to
(http://crimso.msk.ru/Images6/MA/MA99-4/26-1.jpg)

Photo you used is retouched, it was probably prepared for press:  contrast was increased, some edges were filled-in etc.  Windows are clearly erased.

following photo is a poor copy, probably photo of an photo, but it isn't retouched:
(http://13army.school252.ru/images13/most.jpg)

regards,
KL

Great link.

Hi Konstantin,
thank you, this explanation is likely. I'm updating the page on Li-2 utilizing many photos, from red Stars n.4 in particular.
I've seen that there is a new book of Gordon on the Li-2, I wonder if there is something more on this type that was not included in present publications.
Regards
Massimo

Hi,
I've updated my Li-2 page.
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/li-2/li-2.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/li-2/li-2.htm)
I was able to detect two black-green templates, but those utilized after 1943 are still in vague.
Here is one
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/li-2/li-2camo/temp2.jpg)
Regards
Massimo

Very nice, Massimo!  I'm going to redo an old Li-2 model I had originally done in a white winter finish some years ago.  I want to redo it as a night-bomber, with four machine guns, and four bombs under the wing centre-section.  Whichever scheme I do, I do want to do it with the Noch undersides.  Merry Christmas!

Regards,

Jason

Hi Jason,
this sounds interesting. How was the model built?
Merry Christmas
Massimo

Massimo, I just modified an Italeri C-47.  I used some new engines and cowlings from Engines and Things, modified the landing gear a little, made the wingtips a little shorter, redid the cargo door on the port side, and added a dorsal turret.  Looking at your photographs, it looks like my turret resembles the UTK-1 turret, and it does have a UBT machine gun, donated from a Toko IL-2 kit.  To redo it as a night bomber, I'm going to add some ShKAS machine guns to the nose and side positions (extras from the Zvezda Pe-8 kit), and add bomb racks from some Evergreen square plastic rods.  The four FAB-250's are donated from my extensive collection of IL-2's.  In addition, I'm going to add the engine fronts from a couple of I-16's and add small spinners to the propeller hubs.  I have all the parts to redo it, I just need to decide on a scheme.  As I said, I want it with the Noch undersides.  I had intended to do it in the three-colour scheme, but if I can find an appropriate black/green scheme, or even better, a partially winter-camouflaged scheme I would consider those.

Regards,

Jason

Hi Jason,
I'll try to  obtain some three-shede schemes on next days. I'm full of doubts on them, but I'll make a try anyway.
There are a lot of photos showing something that resembles much to a modified black-green camo, but lighter and with late style stars.
as this
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/li-2/li-2camo/li2lh.jpg)
or this
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/li-2/li-2camo/li2-takeoff%F9.jpg)
The light shade has more or less the same positions on green on the old camouflage. I wonder if it's a very faded green on a very faded black, or if the colors are still fresh and they replaced green with brown and the dark areas are green and/or dark grey. This would led to a camouflage with a predominance of light brown over all other colors.
Regards
Massimo

Hi,
I've updated the page again. I've added some more photos and two color drawings with two attempts to reconstruct likely 3-shades camos.
Regards
Massimo

Those three-colour schemes look great on the Li-2, Massimo!  I realise they're just reconstructions, but I think they look plausible and I might use one of them on my Li-2 (whenever I get around to redoing it).  At any rate I've downloaded some of the photographs and drawings on that page to help me when I redo my model.

Regards,

Jason

Thank you Jason. Would you take some photos and notes on your Li-2 as it is now, please? It would be useful to add a small page on how to convert a model.
Where did you find the turret? I would be surprised to know that the model of Il-2 included it. For what I know, the only possible donors kits are the Su-2 and the Il-4.
Regards
Massimo

Perhaps interesting find on this page:
http://www.luftwaffe.be/photographs/aircraft/sovjet_planes.html (http://www.luftwaffe.be/photographs/aircraft/sovjet_planes.html)

Among multitude of jak's, MiG's, Polikarpovs etc was this titled as 121_sp_kerch_wl258
(http://www.luftwaffe.be/photographs/aircraft/sp/121_sp_kerch_wl258.jpg)

Oops, sorry to take so long to get back to you Massimo.  I must not have the new post notification for this thread.  For the turret, I can't remember anymore where I got it from, although it looks something like a B-17 top turret (from a B-17E, not a B-17G).  I actually have the Il-4 and Su-2, but those are the smaller UTK-1's, I think, and I wanted the larger turret (MV-3?) to house the UBT gun.  The UBT is what I "borrowed" from the IL-2 kit.  I'll get something together on what I have now with my Li-2, warts and all.  I'll certainly take pictures when I "re-convert" it into the night-bomber version.

TISO, interesting picture of the Li-2.  You can see where the dorsal turret was.  It appears to have the white splotches only on the fuselage, and not the wings.  The splotches appear to be over a black/green camouflage.  Would you give a shot at reconstructing the scheme, Massimo?

Regards,

Jason

Hi Tiso,
thank you, I hadn't this beautiful image, I'll add it to the page by sure.

Hi Jason,
a turret of B-17E? It would be difficult to find one without wasting a lot of money, I fear.
The base camo looks the four-bands one, with white put in prevalence (but not only) on green parts. It's strange, it's not visible on the outer part of wings.
Regards
Massimo

I've put the image.
Now that I see, there are some errors on the glazing of my color views: the photos show that a pair of small windows were present only on late Li-2, and usually in symmetric position. I'll correct this on next days.
Regards
Massimo

Hi,
I've corrected the windows on the drawings, and added a new grey-grey pattern.
Regards
Massimo

Zvesda is releasing a new tool Li-2, but it is in the (for me & 99% of us) astonishingly wrong scale of 1/200th!
At least they they were thinking about it.

I saw that too, Kevin.  However, if you think about it - Amodel have released a Tabby (Japanese licence-built DC-3) in 1/72nd scale.  Now Zvezda have released the Li-2, complete with dorsal turret, albeit in 1/200th scale.  I think they're teasing us.  All they have to do is magically combine the two and we've got an Li-2 in 1/72nd scale!  Simple, really.  All right, back on the meds for me.

Regards,

Jason

Hi Kevin and Jason,
a Li-2 with turret and camouflage aside the airliners of Hasegawa looks a bit out of place, isn't it?
Regards
Massimo

That's why I like it, Massimo.  An Li-2NB armed to the teeth with one UBT and three ShKAS machine guns and 1000kg of bombs.  It would certainly look different if you placed it next to a DC-3 in TWA markings.  Of course, I'm not going to buy one in 1/200th scale, but it'd still be interesting to see.

Regards,

Jason

Me too. Even if I wasn't a hard-core VVS buff, I'd be drawn to an armed Li-2 simply because it is such a contrast to the usual Dakotas.

Much the same reason I'm tackling that A-Model Er-2, it just looks so bizarre next to any other airplane 

and speaking of meds Jason, mine at this moment is an 18oz Baltika #3, poured in commemoration of the 69th anniversary of the Soviets breaking the Leningrad siege. Yeah, that's it, in fact, this day is so significant that I think I'll pour another.  ;D

Well, I guess I picked a bad day to quit drinking (and sniffing glue) or I'd join you Kevin.  Have one for me!  Za Operatsiya Iskra! Za Leningrad! Za Pobedu!  Za Vodka!

Regards,

Jason

Hi, here is an apparently good version of that photo of the plane in Leningrad

http://office.altsoft.spb.ru/cgakffd/cd/5/index.html#/menu/2513814900/2501860815 (http://office.altsoft.spb.ru/cgakffd/cd/5/index.html#/menu/2513814900/2501860815)
Regards
Massimo

Could be interesting in Storming Berlin 1945 documentary made from original footage (part 2 of 5) there are 2 Li-2's when a camera flys over an airfield (one 2 tone green-black and one 3 colour camo) check 1:18

Штурм Берлина, Май 1945
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-K7b8sAH1w (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-K7b8sAH1w)

Interesting. The quality of the screenshots is poor, but we find some interesting things:
Pe-2s, two of which seem in uniform green, the other ones have a highly contrasted camo with a very light color on their wings;
as you wrote, two Li-2s, one in green and black, the other one with a 3 shades camo; the lighter color of the camo is by much darker that the one visible on the wings of the Pe-2s;
many p-39s in uniform color, and other planes (Yaks?) with disruptive camo.
It would be extremely interesting to find good prints from this movie.
Any thoughts?
Regards
Massimo

Hi,
here is a photocollage of the most interesting planes of the movie, all taken in the same scene under the same light.
A black/green Li-2 and a 3 shades one (black or grey-green-brown?) aside a line of Pe-2 with strangely light blotches on their camo (one of the planes looks uniform green). For comparison, a pair of OD P-39 and what seems to be a far pair of Il-2s.

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/collagetypes.jpg)
Regards
Massimo

Just got me Eastern Express 1/144 Li-2T and i mean litterally just as i just drove home and almost ripped open tha box compared parts and started writing this.
When I was looking at pic's on HobbyTerra and was a bit dissapointed but I took a bit of a gamble on this one and bought it anyway. Reasoning was that since their 1/144 An-14 is absolutly a microscopic gem (considering it's size) this one should not be all that bad. Gamble paid off.

(http://hobbyterra.com/images/products/ee/ee14430.jpg)

Be advised that photos of parts on HobbyTerra (http://hobbyterra.com/product_info.php?products_id=3713) are of what i judge a very early test shot. Diffrences of what you get in the box from parts on the HobbyTerra photos are significant. Model in reality is way better than test shot model that is on the pic's. It does have passanger windows cut out and clear parts provided and decal black squares as an option (test shot has passanger windows as engraved only). Small parts are way better than those on the photos and have relatively little of flash (on the photos they are horrible). Also arrangment of parts is a bit different. Skies are no longer provided on the sprue but slotted cowl face is and an option. Decals provided are for the same machines as it's bigger brother i.e. 1/72 A-model kit. there are no bombs provides even tough some of the decals are for the bomber version.

 In comparison with C-47 in same scale from Roden it is quite comparable even tough EE LI-2 is a short run kit and Roden C-47 is long-run (in direct comparison it shows).

Well worth a buy.


Now gentelmen someone (looking around whistling) should make C-47 and Li-2 decals in 1/144 scale.

Couldn't it be that they photographed a Zvezda kit in 1:200?
Regards
Massimo

 I also did a bit of searching and found pic's Zvezda 1/200 kit and they don't correspond with EE kit (either photos or the kit):
http://hobbyterra.com/product/1-200-scale-model-li-2-soviet-transport-plane-1942-1945-zvezda-6140.html (http://hobbyterra.com/product/1-200-scale-model-li-2-soviet-transport-plane-1942-1945-zvezda-6140.html)

 I have Zvezda Il-2 and LaGG-3 (this one is rather good) kits in their wargaming 1/144 and they are long run kits. Photos are of obviously short run kit and besides Zvezda uses for all their wargaming stuff a rather "greasy" green plastic. Also while parts are arranged a bit differently on the sprue they are still the same shape while they are generally cleaned up.

My guess is that after showing first test shots there were a lot of comments/complaints and Roden announced their C-47 and they decided to listen and do some additional work on the kit (not unheard of Trumpeter and S-model did just that).

From where did you obtain your EE 1/144 Li-2?

From a friend who is a bit of a plastic wheeler-dealer and who got it for me (together with 1/72 MSD (ex Maquette) Vickers 66 Vernon/Vimy commercial) on Hungarian Mosonmagyar?v?r scale modell show (http://www.mosonshow.hu/) from a serbian shop Spektar M-Hobby

I bought my Eastern Express Li2 at the 2011 Scale Modelworld, from a Prague model shop I believe, but it lacks windows and slotted engine faces.  It is below the standard of the Roden and clearly based on the Minicraft.  Three versions were on sale then, but not (I think?) a turreted version.

Well it seems they did improve the mould a bit lately and in my box (EE 14430) there are fuselage windows, a turret and sloted cowl faces (but skies are missing). I compared it with Roden C-47 and Roden is clearly supperior in fit (less filling and grinding) and some aspects of accuracy i.e. wing tips on EE are a bit too pointy and it shows if you put them side by side but Roden did forget to make panel lines for flaps under the fuselage. On the other hand EE fuselage paneling is more in line with Li-2 drawings. EE fuselage is almost identical in shape and size to Roden (main differensec are panel lines and windshield attachment).

BTW
for Li-2 slotted cowl face one can get these days BrenGun PE set BRL144071 for 1/144 Li-2 (Li-2 cowl faces, MG's and few antenas)

My box has long gone, but from memory (and the art on the instruction sheet) it was the same as shown.  Obviously the instruction sheet will have changed too.  It was also labelled as 14430 so caveat emptor.  There was no turret on the instructions, either.

The wings are also shorter in span than the Roden.  The Roden does however have too wide a chord on the aileron uppersurfaces.

Hobby Link Japan are mentioning an Eastern Express Li1NB, which may be a typo but I suspect means a night bomber release of this kit - hopefully not the same one as already available.

HUH i belive the thing is similar to 1/72 ACE models BRDM-2 nowdays you have kits from 3 different versions of mould floating around. In the end they are still ACE (soft details, bad fit, lots of putty, lots of grinding and sanding...)...

What about this one?

http://sa-kuva.fi/neo?tem=webneo_image_preview_max&lang=ENG&doc_id=7aa7d2216b2241143e7c4d72353052b2&archive=&zoom=YES

Hi Oleg,
interesting image. The plane appears in natural metal, and different panels feature different shades. Do you know any other informations on this image?
Regards
Massimo

(http://sa-kuva.fi/neo?tem=webneo_image_preview_max&lang=ENG&doc_id=7aa7d2216b22411f4213200306b6f284&archive=&zoom=YES)
That is an airplane that brought Soviet comission to Khanko Peninsula in 1940
http://sa-kuva.fi/neo?tem=webneo_image_preview_max&lang=ENG&doc_id=7aa7d2216b22411f4213200306b6f284&archive=&zoom=YES
SB from the same event
http://sa-kuva.fi/neo?tem=webneo_image_preview_max&lang=ENG&doc_id=7aa7d2216b2241130183c2089789447d&archive=&zoom=YES

That SB is interesting; it has the main wheels, but a ski has replaced the tail wheel.

Regards,

Jason

Yes, and it has the mast on the windshield; it is certainly a late production one, I suppose around the beginning of 1940.
Regards
Massimo

The image was made right after the Winter war ended - SB is sitting on ice of the Gulf of Finland, so it is erly spring of 1940. Perhaps this SB was a replacement for the losses?

What is the emblem on the tail & nose of the aircraft?

Douglas emblem

Your right.

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/RUSSGOON2a_zpsa8874607.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/RUSSGOON2a_zpsa8874607.jpg.html)

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Douglas%20C-47/DOUGLASPATCHA_zps1e7c37d4.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Douglas%20C-47/DOUGLASPATCHA_zps1e7c37d4.jpg.html)

Might be already seen but...
http://www.wio.ru/tacftr/bomb-gal.htm
http://topwar.ru/28408-voenno-transportnyy-samolet-li-2.html
http://www.ivki.ru/kapustin/journal/avia_hist.html
http://walkarounds.airforce.ru/avia/rus/li-2_2/index.htm
http://dkw-rus.narod.ru/batja.html

A few Li 2 vids

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFc9UYGF-as

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kx5FL4gmH90

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0b59EdDO5VI

Hi,
Tapani is working on some profiles of Li-2 and C-47 in Soviet markings.
I would understand the commonalities between the planes of these photos:

(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/li-2/li-2camo/li2-419.jpg)
Li-2 (probably NB) n.419 features a 3 shades camouflage. The damage on the rudder suggest that it was utilized as a night bomber.
Note the slots for defensive 7,62 ShKAS machine guns on the rear window. The defensive armament included two of them in the rear fuselage, plus a fixed one on the nose and one 12.7 mm UBT on the turret.
About 600 Li-2NB were utilized by the ADD equipping up to 19 regiments; 384 of them were lost during the war.



(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/li-2/li-2camo/406.jpg)
Unarmed Li-2 n.406 of the 23 OAP GVF (Detachet Aviation Regiment of the Civil Aviation Fleet) in summer 1945.
The inscription on the nose means 'Berlinskiy', an honorary name given to the regiment. The planes are unarmed, and still have a 3-shades camouflage with black undersurfaces.


The first plane was probably a night bomber photographed in 1944 and the second image shows unarmed planes in 1945, but the tail numbers were extremely similar suggesting that they belonged to the same unit. But the unit of the second photo is a transport one.
I wonder if the planes belonged to the same bomber units in 1944, then they were disarmed and converted to the transport role and passed to another unit all together.
Can anyone help to make light on this?

Regards
Massimo

The damage is to the elevator, but there's little reason to suggest that it couldn't be in the transport role when hit by flak - for example supply dropping to partisans.  Do you have any evidence that it was a night bomber - was it possible that the gun position window was standard on wartime aircraft?  After all the C-47 had simpler positions in each window.

It is interesting to find evidence for these aircraft and their use.

I haven't further evidence of a night bomber. I am looking for anyone with more informations on the photos, for example the date and the unit.

Hi,
according to http://allaces.ru/sssr/struct/p/trap8gvf.php (http://allaces.ru/sssr/struct/p/trap8gvf.php) Li-2 in the 23 OAP GVF flew transport missions, landed at partisan airfields etc.:

"За годы войны летчики полка провели в воздухе 116295 часов, совершили в тыл противника (в основном в Крым) 463 полета, перевезли 425 десантников, 7379,8 тонны боеприпасов, 5453 раненых бойцов."
Google translator:
During the war years, the regiment's pilots spent 116295 hours in the air, flew 463 flights to the enemy's rear (mainly in the Crimea), transported 425 paratroopers, 7379.8 tons of ammunition, and 5453 wounded soldiers.

Picture found at yandex.ru:
(https://aviadejavu.ru/Images6/MA/MA99-4/26-4.jpg)

Regards,
   66misos

Hi Massimo,

Quite snowy summer I would say  ;)

Please don't take as an offence!

Cheers,

AaCee

Hi AaCee,
you're right, the timeframe has to be wrong. Now I have to see where the caption was found.
Regards
Massimo

Surely the photo of 406 is the end 1945. On the profile of 406 we can see "зима 1945". Moreover, the regiment got Berlin name of course after Berlin surrender, so it can't be the begin of 1945.
I absolulely agree about the same font means the same unit. The regiment can be disbanded not earlier than 1946-47.

So you think that plane 419 was not a bomber, but an armed transport? Are there other photos known of planes of the same unit?