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Print Page - Yak-9 "southfront" cammo?

Sovietwarplanes

Great Patriotic War Aviation => Yaks => Topic started by: warhawk on January 08, 2012, 07:03:26 PM



Title: Yak-9 "southfront" cammo?
Post by: warhawk on January 08, 2012, 07:03:26 PM
I am aware that this cammo is a fantasy of EP, but this photo leaves me a conundrum:
Surely it is not AMT-11/12 scheme... The contrast between upper colors is just too high

(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x31/warhawk_photo/razno/th_3wr.jpg) (http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x31/warhawk_photo/razno/3wr.jpg)


Title: Re: Yak-9 "southfront" cammo?
Post by: learstang on January 08, 2012, 09:03:12 PM
One explanation could be that it's taken in bright sunlight (there don't seem to be any clouds).  It curious how the darker topside colour abruptly becomes darker when going from one panel to next, aft of the exhausts.  Some repainting because of exhaust stains?

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Yak-9 "southfront" cammo?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on January 09, 2012, 08:24:15 AM
Hi,
really an interesting image. What is the source? Are other informations known?
The photo is very clear, I don't think that sunlight can affect it. It is really an unusual color, we can compare it to the landing gear doors that are under the very same light.
The star is of late type, post-summer 1943.

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Yak-9 "southfront" cammo?
Post by: warhawk on January 09, 2012, 11:53:04 AM
I found it while organizing my Yak folder, dunno when and where I downloaded it...
I even tried the TinEye Reverse Image Search, but to no avail (the source is obviously long gone...)

I agree, the photo is too clear for sunlight to affect it that much...


Title: Re: Yak-9 "southfront" cammo?
Post by: KL on January 10, 2012, 08:09:40 PM
Warhawk,
Yak on your image is either in green-black scheme or in gray-gray scheme.  Probability for any other colour are close to 0.  :)

Your Yak saved as 16-bit grayscale image:
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/Southfront_Yak-9.jpg)

Compare it with Yak-9 images from airwar.ru -  those are 100% in gray-gray scheme.  I selected photos with more contrast

(http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/fww2/yak9d/yak9d-1.jpg)
(http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/fww2/yak9dd/yak9dd-2.jpg)
(http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/fww2/yak9dd/yak9dd-4.jpg)
(http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/fww2/yak9m106/yak9m106-1.jpg)
(http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/fww2/yak9/yak9-2.jpg)
(http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/fww2/yak9/yak9-3.jpg)
(http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/fww2/yak9k/yak9k-3.jpg)
(http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/fww2/yak9m/yak9m-7.jpg)
(http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/fww2/yak9p-107/yak9p-107-5.jpg)
(http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/fww2/yak9ut/yak9ut-3.jpg)

Do you believe all those Yaks were painted for combat in Libyan desert???


Title: Re: Yak-9 "southfront" cammo?
Post by: warhawk on January 10, 2012, 08:26:57 PM
OK, thanks for the comparison...
Still not sure how this contrast occurs on only some photos...


Title: Re: Yak-9 "southfront" cammo?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on January 10, 2012, 09:16:33 PM
Hi,
none is thinking to Lybian desert, but it's hard to believe that this color is the same tested on another topic. The variability is visible on many photos, I know, but there are also many photos showing that repaintings were much different than the original colors. So, or the colors faded quickly, or there were many variants of the same colors. Should the colors be stable and fully standardized, repainting should be nearly unvisible.
Note that a pair of light patches are well distinguishable on the nose of the 'desert' plane; it could be a worn grey-grey plane whose AMT-11 faded parts were partially repainted with a lighter grey or even light blue.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Yak-9 "southfront" cammo?
Post by: KL on January 10, 2012, 10:01:56 PM
...how this contrast occurs on only some photos...

contrast in b/w photography depends on many factors, not only on colour - it depends on lighting, film sensitivity, surface condition etc.  Both green-black and gray-gray schemes on period photos appear over the entire range of contrasts.  on some photos contrast is minimal, on some moderate, on some high.  There are many cases when gray-gray scheme was interpreted as solid gray, due to the low contrast.  Pilawskii wrote how planes were factory painted in single gray and that some were modified in the field in two gray (actualy gray-green) scheme - check color profiles in his book!

Note that a pair of light patches are well distinguishable on the nose of the 'desert' plane; it could be a worn grey-grey plane whose AMT-11 faded parts were partially repainted with a lighter grey or even light blue.

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/Southfront_Yak-9bubbles.jpg) 


Title: Re: Yak-9 "southfront" cammo?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on January 11, 2012, 07:29:00 AM
It could alse be that a photo is defective or manipulated, the grass and the sky looks manipulated to be sharper, but there are lots of photos of Yaks (as the famous 22) that looks clearly the repaintings.
Returning on this photo, it is also interesting to see how the shade changes sharply in front of the oil cooler intake passing from the side to the lower panel. This is strange, and possible only if the lower panel is darker than the side panel. Clearly not the same color of the landing gear door.
The dark (black?) spinner is unusual too, they were usually black on green/black planes, but this looks a Yak-9M of early 1944.
I think that we should ask some Russians to detect the source of this photo that has a mark on it.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Yak-9 "southfront" cammo?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on January 11, 2012, 10:59:26 AM
Hi,
AR has collected the suggestion that the plane could also be a postwar Bulgarian plane, because the mark gives the idea to be Bulgarian. Who has other photos of Bulgarian Yak-9M  with star-shaped marks?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Yak-9 "southfront" cammo?
Post by: John Thompson on January 11, 2012, 05:12:24 PM
Hi,
AR has collected the suggestion that the plane could also be a postwar Bulgarian plane, because the mark gives the idea to be Bulgarian. Who has other photos of Bulgarian Yak-9M  with star-shaped marks?
Regards
Massimo

That's pretty funny - I'm really starting to believe I must be psychic. Not knowledgable, just psychic. The first thing I thought of when I saw the photo was Bulgaria, too, but when I checked Wings Palette for Bulgarian markings, I got this page, which does not show any with star markings:
http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww2/f/15/243/0

There is a second page with two post-war Bulgarian Yak-9's, but those also do not have stars.

According to Wikipedia, a star insignia was introduced in 1948:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bulgarian_Air_Force_roundel_1948.svg

I wasn't able to find a photo of a Yak-9M with this marking; did Bulgaria continue to use the early-type M-105-powered Yak-9 after 1948?

Hungary, perhaps? I could only find images of the Yak-9P in Hungarian markings, though - no Yak-9M or Yak-9D, and the aircraft in the photo is clearly not a Yak-9P. I don't think Hungary is as flat as the background of the photo shows, either. Let me look deeper into my crystal ball - I mean, my computer monitor... :D

John


Title: Re: Yak-9 "southfront" cammo?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on January 11, 2012, 06:14:55 PM
Hi John,
a Yak-9M in 1948... not too likely, I fear. Let's see if other informations will emerge...
In the meanwhile, I've made a test: to replace the sky of the image with a lighter one, but the impression of a very light color on the camouflage is still persisting.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Yak-9 "southfront" cammo?
Post by: KL on January 11, 2012, 06:38:55 PM
"криле" (krile) must be "Wings" in Bulgarian cyrillic... :D

Bulgarian Yak-9M from http://crimso.msk.ru/Site/Crafts/Craft20042.htm

(http://crimso.msk.ru/Images6/AV/AV04-2/41-1.jpg)

If Bulagarian Yak, it should be Yak-9M.
(http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/fww2/yak9m/yak9m-1.jpg)
(http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/fww2/yak9m/yak9m-7.jpg)
(http://lib.rus.ec/i/65/310265/pic_29.jpg)

Yak-9M was the most numerous Yak-9 modification. Over 4,000 were made between May 1944 and June 1945.  Factory camoflage was gray-gray, no doubts. 


Title: Re: Yak-9 "southfront" cammo?
Post by: KL on January 11, 2012, 07:00:09 PM
I wasn't able to find a photo of a Yak-9M with this marking; did Bulgaria continue to use the early-type M-105-powered Yak-9 after 1948?

Most Bulgarian Yak-9Ms were handed over to Yugoslav Air Force in 1947 or 1948.  In Yugoslavia they were converted in two-seaters called UYak-9 and used as trainers till early fifties.
Another photo of a Bulgarian Yak-9M, apparently from 1950es

(http://www.lostbulgaria.com/pic/1793.jpg)

and one more:
(http://www.pan.bg/spotters/img/611.jpg)


Title: Re: Yak-9 "southfront" cammo?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on January 11, 2012, 07:43:34 PM
Hi Konstantin,
good research.

(http://crimso.msk.ru/Images6/AV/AV04-2/41-1.jpg)

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/Southfront_Yak-9.jpg)
There is some resemblance, isn't it?

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Yak-9 "southfront" cammo?
Post by: KL on January 11, 2012, 08:45:02 PM
The most famous Bulgarian Yak-9M, photographed in Italy in August 1946

(http://forum.keypublishing.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=167118&d=1227201638)

(http://forum.keypublishing.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=167119&d=1227201694)

same Yak in British markings:

(http://forum.keypublishing.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=167117&d=1227201623)
from http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?t=86095

The plane was clearly in standard 1943 gray-gray camouflage scheme.  Plane from the begining of the tread could have been repainted in Bulgaria in late 1940es ???


Title: Re: Yak-9 "southfront" cammo?
Post by: John Thompson on January 11, 2012, 11:16:23 PM
The most famous Bulgarian Yak-9M, photographed in Italy in August 1946

same Yak in British markings:

(http://forum.keypublishing.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=167117&d=1227201623)
from http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?t=86095

The plane was clearly in standard 1943 gray-gray camouflage scheme.  Plane from the begining of the tread could have been repainted in Bulgaria in late 1940es ???

Some on this forum may have noticed several threads elsewhere which are making suggestions to Airfix for new model kits. Part of the argument in favour of any particular subject is that Airfix's existing kit of that aircraft is very old and inaccurate (such as their Yak-9); another part is that some connection with the RAF is important. I've been doing my best to try to get a new 1/72 Yak-9 added to the Airfix future release list by posting links on the subject of this very same Yak-9, flown by RAF Wing Commander James A. Storrar. I hope someone listens!  :D

John


Title: Re: Yak-9 "southfront" cammo?
Post by: KL on January 12, 2012, 10:06:19 PM
none is thinking to Lybian desert...

EP's "South Front scheme" is RAF Desert scheme.  Compare his book

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/ARC%20forum/SouthFrontSchemeSAFFCpg187.jpg)
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/ARC%20forum/SouthFrontSchemeSAFFCpg186.jpg)

and his inspiration:
(http://modelingmadness.com/scotts/allies/gb/swh1bt.jpg)


Title: Re: Yak-9 "southfront" cammo?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on January 13, 2012, 08:31:20 AM
None of us, I meant. At least, I suppose so. I wonder if/where he found that 'sure information' about what was done in Novosibirsk.
To tell the truth, I've seen a wreck of Il-2 with similar colors, but I suppose they were primers.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Yak-9 "southfront" cammo?
Post by: KL on January 13, 2012, 06:53:28 PM
Now when we know timeframe (late forties, after 1948), we may guess colours... ;D

My suggestion:

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Korean%20War/yak9pcore9e4903ep1.jpg)

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Korean%20War/act4-korea-il-10.jpg)

These two colours would provide plenty of contrast for those who like b/w photo interpretation.  Case closed!

Cheers,
KL

PS:  Bulgrian Yaks are an obscure subject - hardly any info at the web and what is available is mostly missinformation.  >:(

 


Title: Re: Yak-9 "southfront" cammo?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on January 13, 2012, 08:43:18 PM
I would agree for AMT-16, while the dark color could be both dark green or the original dark grey AMT-12. Just because, in one of the photos the light color looks painted after the darker one.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Yak-9 "southfront" cammo?
Post by: John Thompson on January 13, 2012, 11:33:24 PM

PS:  Bulgrian Yaks are an obscure subject - hardly any info at the web and what is available is mostly missinformation.  >:(

 

Interesting photos; thanks, KL! I assume you've done the same thing I did (used your search engine looking for Bulgarian Yak-9's) - one thing I found which was somewhat interesting was the web site for the Bulgarian National Museum of Military History, in the village of Crumovo. According to their home page (link below), their collection includes a Yak-9, although the subtype isn't mentioned. I suspect it's a postwar Yak-9P, but their site doesn't seem to have any images of this particular aircraft.
http://www.militarymuseum.bg/eng/Filiali/MA.html

John


Title: Re: Yak-9 "southfront" cammo?
Post by: KL on January 14, 2012, 02:03:38 AM
...somewhat interesting was the web site for the Bulgarian National Museum of Military History, in the village of Crumovo. According to their home page (link below), their collection includes a Yak-9, although the subtype isn't mentioned. I suspect it's a postwar Yak-9P, but their site doesn't seem to have any images of this particular aircraft.

Yes, it's Yak-9P - for long time it was in poor condition and it was painted in fictional green-brown scheme (Airfix influence  ;) ) .  Few years ago it was repainted in more realistic gray-gray scheme.

(http://airgroup2000.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10070/009.JPG)
http://www.airgroup2000.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5887349

Monino Yak-9 is also Bulgarian Yak-9P (a "gift" from technical museum in Sofia).  It's usually misidentified as Yak-9U.

KL


Title: Re: Yak-9 "southfront" cammo?
Post by: learstang on January 14, 2012, 02:55:20 AM
That IL-2 in the background, which was in bad shape (as here), was fully-restored in the last few years (I believe in 2009) and is now in very nice shape.  I hope they keep it in good shape as it looked like it was headed for the scrap heap (or my backyard if I could scrape the money together!).

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Yak-9 "southfront" cammo?
Post by: KL on January 14, 2012, 09:19:47 AM
Krumovo-Plovdiv Yak-9P before restauration

(http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/middle/3/8/0/1059083.jpg)

and after

(http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/middle/7/8/9/1413987.jpg)


Title: Re: Yak-9 "southfront" cammo?
Post by: Walker on January 14, 2012, 10:22:00 AM
A wonderful restoration!


Title: Re: Yak-9 "southfront" cammo?
Post by: Walker on January 14, 2012, 10:23:24 AM
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/ARC%20forum/SouthFrontSchemeSAFFCpg186.jpg)

The author obviously delirious.


Title: Re: Yak-9 "southfront" cammo?
Post by: John Thompson on January 14, 2012, 04:58:48 PM
The author obviously delirious.

LOL... :D

Thanks for the photos, KL. Looks like an excellent restoration. I wonder what they used as a basis for the colours.

John


Title: Re: Yak-9 "southfront" cammo?
Post by: learstang on January 14, 2012, 05:55:58 PM
That's a great before and after, Konstantin!  The IL-2 was in a similar state of dilapidation.  I may post the before and after photographs of that in another thread.  It's always nice to see historic aeroplanes restored.  And Musa, nobody's exactly sure where Mr. Pilawskii got his information.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Yak-9 "southfront" cammo?
Post by: Walker on January 14, 2012, 10:23:17 PM
This Mr. Pilavski? Then everything is clear ...


Title: Re: Yak-9 "southfront" cammo?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on January 15, 2012, 07:48:06 AM
Hi,
the restored plane is good-looking for a model or a profile.
Jason, have you found photos of the restored Il-2 too?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Yak-9 "southfront" cammo?
Post by: learstang on January 15, 2012, 09:36:48 PM
Hi,
the restored plane is good-looking for a model or a profile.
Jason, have you found photos of the restored Il-2 too?
Regards
Massimo

Here you are, Massimo.  Would you like me to find the "before" photograph?

Regards,

Jason

(http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx323/Learstang/IL-2-Arrow-FullyRestoredBulgarianExamplein2009-FormerlyinBadShapeJPEG.jpg)


Title: Re: Yak-9 "southfront" cammo?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on January 16, 2012, 08:19:16 AM
Thank you Jason. This restoration is very nice, before this topic I didn't know of a Shturmovik preserved in Bulgary .
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Yak-9 "southfront" cammo?
Post by: KL on January 16, 2012, 06:24:37 PM
Thanks for the photos, KL. Looks like an excellent restoration. I wonder what they used as a basis for the colours.

The restoration was more of a weekend paint project in 1:1 scale.
check photos at http://www.airgroup2000.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=225051&start=540

(http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/4293/img0341xb6.jpg)

 - exterior looks nice, interior still needs some attention...  :-\

(http://airgroup2000.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30578/11~4.jpg)


Title: Re: Yak-9 "southfront" cammo?
Post by: KL on January 16, 2012, 06:29:35 PM
the restored plane is good-looking for a model or a profile.

Massimo,
how about a profile of Yak-9M from the beginning of the tread in light gray and dark green (or dark gray)?

KL


Title: Re: Yak-9 "southfront" cammo?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on January 16, 2012, 07:18:56 PM
Hi Konstantin,
when I'll start to trace profiles of Yaks, this will be one by sure. Pity for the unknown number on the fuselage.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Yak-9 "southfront" cammo?
Post by: learstang on January 16, 2012, 07:39:59 PM
Nice link, Konstantin, thank you!  You can see the wretched state of the Shturmovik (at the time) in the background of a couple of the photographs.  I like the photograph of the Bulgarian chap whistling as he paints the new roundel.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Yak-9 "southfront" cammo?
Post by: John Thompson on January 16, 2012, 10:54:13 PM
Thanks for the link, KL! There are a lot of great photos there, showing details of not only the Yak-9P but also a MiG-15 and a couple of Yak-23's. At 62 pages, it'll take some time to check them all, though! However, I thought this one was interesting - it shows original AMT-7 under... something else - some leftover Cornflower Blue interior alkyd from somebody's home renovation project, maybe:

http://img77.imageshack.us/img77/6452/img0109mo1.jpg

John


Title: Re: Yak-9 "southfront" cammo?
Post by: KL on January 17, 2012, 03:15:57 AM
Some photos from fifties which may help to get an idea for Yak-9M camouflage.  IMHO, the "donors" for dark green were Il-10s:

(http://airgroup2000.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12122/3~30.jpg)

on the following photo Il-10 and Yak-9M (in original gray-gray camouflage) together:

(http://airgroup2000.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12122/8~18.jpg)

light gray was already in wide use, like on the following Yak-11

(http://airgroup2000.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12122/47.jpg)

from:  http://www.airgroup2000.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=226068&start=30

... Pity for the unknown number on the fuselage.

(http://crimso.msk.ru/Images6/AV/AV04-2/41-1.jpg)

It's 25 or 35, more likely 25 - not many Yak-9Ms remained after 1948.


Title: Re: Yak-9 "southfront" cammo?
Post by: John Thompson on January 17, 2012, 03:54:46 PM
Would that light grey on the Yak-11 be A-36m/g?

John


Title: Re: Yak-9 "southfront" cammo?
Post by: KL on January 17, 2012, 07:08:30 PM
Would that light grey on the Yak-11 be A-36m/g?

Yes, A-36g or AGT-16... as per Pilawskii's Yak-11 page at http://www.redbanner.co.uk/History/Yak11/Yak11_paint.html

(http://www.redbanner.co.uk/History/Yak11/C11-graz.jpg)

colour sample of La-156 wing preserved at Harkov HAI (from scalemodels.ru forum):

(http://storage6.static.itmages.ru/i/11/1031/h_1320005288_4624179_76efa31882.jpeg)


Title: Re: Yak-9 "southfront" cammo?
Post by: John Thompson on January 17, 2012, 09:38:31 PM
Thanks, KL!

John


Title: Re: Yak-9 "southfront" cammo?
Post by: PG monster on June 12, 2019, 10:12:51 AM
(http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/fww2/yak9k/yak9k-3.jpg)

Someone made a profile for this bird?


Title: Re: Yak-9 "southfront" cammo?
Post by: learstang on June 12, 2019, 08:13:39 PM
Yes, someone did. Michal Sekula did this fine profile for my upcoming book, 'Soviet Fighters of the Second World War'. Here's the link.

http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/board/index.php?topic=2334.msg20381#msg20381

Best Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Yak-9 "southfront" cammo?
Post by: PG monster on June 13, 2019, 02:10:56 PM
Wow cool, thanx!