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Print Page - Soviet Me-109 E

Sovietwarplanes

Modeling Soviet Warplanes => Colors, schemes, & research => Topic started by: SergeyV on January 19, 2012, 02:28:02 PM



Title: Soviet Me-109 E
Post by: SergeyV on January 19, 2012, 02:28:02 PM
Hi, everyone.

I'd like to turn to you with a question. I have seen profile of one of 5 Me-109E which were supplied under the Soviet-German Pact in May 1940 to Moscow Central Airfield, USSR for testings. I'd like to make a model of such a machine but not sure about paint scheme of these - I think, that these were E-3 modification, but as for camo - there are 3 variants as for me:
 
1). 70/71/65 camo scheme
2). Overall green - 70 or 71 with 65 applied to undersurfaces.
3). Or other - applied by soviet side with red stars later application.

Link to profile: http://img.wp.scn.ru/camms/ar/32/pics/1_1.jpg
 
Could you suggest anything on this subject?


Title: Re: Soviet Me-109 E
Post by: John Thompson on January 19, 2012, 04:55:51 PM
Hi Sergey - welcome to the forum! I'm sorry that I don't have any information to offer - I didn't even know that Germany had given these aircraft to Russia for testing. There was a thread on this forum regarding a Russian Bf-109F, but this was a captured machine, not a gift. Have you tried the Scalemodels.ru forum for German (or Axis) aircraft before 1950? Please forgive me if I'm wrong, but I'm guessing that you speak Russian!  :)

Best regards;
John


Title: Re: Soviet Me-109 E
Post by: TISO on January 19, 2012, 05:48:09 PM
AFAIK Soviet union bought some planes for testing purposes (Do-215, Ju-88A, Fi-156 etc). I'm not absolutely shure about Bf-109E AFAIK they bought a couple of examples. The Bf-109B was captured in Spain shiped to SSSR and recaptured by germans in 1941
Re colours exported Bf-109E-3 for Yugoslavia were 2 colour combination of solid RLM 70 Schwartzgrun on upper surfaces and  RLM 65 on lower surfaces


Title: Re: Soviet Me-109 E
Post by: KL on January 19, 2012, 06:09:05 PM
... I didn't even know that Germany had given these aircraft to Russia for testing.

5 Me-109Es were bought for testing before the German attack in June 1941.  Other German planes purchased at that time include He-100, Fw-58, Fi-156, Do-215, Ju-88A and Ju-52 engine test bed.

Some results of Me-109E tests were published by BNT NKAP and are available at   http://www.airpages.ru/mn/bf109e3_00.shtml

(http://mirageswar.com/uploads/posts/2011-01/1296200877_russian-bf-109e-3-350.jpg)

1941 Report called Общее описание самолета Ме-109 Е3 by И. В. Шепетков can be downloaded at
http://mirknig.com/knigi/military_history/1181369201-obschee-opisanie-samoleta-me-109-e3.html


Title: Re: Soviet Me-109 E
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on January 19, 2012, 07:35:48 PM
Hi Konstantin,
strangely, the plane of the photo looks an earlier version, despite the title of the report.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Soviet Me-109 E
Post by: KL on January 19, 2012, 08:24:43 PM
strangely, the plane of the photo looks an earlier version, despite the title of the report.

The photo is Messershchmitt's promotional photo, one from a series:

(http://i23.servimg.com/u/f23/11/39/58/85/bf-11010.jpg)
(http://crimso.msk.ru/Images6/JS/Janes38-3/136-2.jpg)
(http://crimso.msk.ru/Images6/AK/AK2010-04/47-15.jpg)
(http://crimso.msk.ru/Images6/JS/Janes38-3/137-1.jpg)

the plane is old Jumo powered Bf-109B.  In 1941 Soviet report used to illustrate generic Me-109 fighter.

... The Bf-109B was captured in Spain shiped to SSSR and recaptured by germans in 1941

This is Maslov's fantasy - Me-109B (actually Me-109A) crushed during flight tests - its tail broke off.  Event was described in P. Stefanovski's memoirs.


Title: Re: Soviet Me-109 E
Post by: KL on January 20, 2012, 08:12:09 AM
from following book
(http://www.booksgid.com/uploads/posts/2011-08/1313992793_nemeckijj-sled-v-istorii.jpg)

Me-109E at NII VVS in 1940:
(http://base13.glasnet.ru/text/nem_sled/2-19.jpg)
(http://base13.glasnet.ru/text/nem_sled/2-17.jpg)

IMHO, Soviet Me-109Es were identical to Swiss or Yugoslav "Emils"
(http://www.ww2incolor.com/gallery/albums/other/ahg.jpg)
(http://www.ww2incolor.com/gallery/albums/other/ahh.jpg)


Title: Re: Soviet Me-109 E
Post by: SergeyV on January 20, 2012, 10:25:23 AM
Thank you very much for your help all of you!

И Константину отдельное огромное спасибо за фотографии!!!!!

I also think that this was a 2 color camo scheme - so now I know how to paint it.

Thank you very much again!

Sergey


Title: Re: Soviet Me-109 E
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on January 20, 2012, 06:35:08 PM
Hi,
I'm not sure, but I think that the plane could be splinter-camouflaged, there is an angular demarcation line visible over the supercharger intake.
I've found a photo of a Me-109 E3 in German markings with the very same pattern of the 109D above, and the comment: 'Soviet aviation specialists after examination of a bf109E fighter'.
Of course, this is not a proof because the plane is in German markings, but we could look for other photos of German Bf-109D and E with the same pattern to see if it has the very same 'lines' visible on the left side of the Soviet 109 at NII VVS.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Soviet Me-109 E
Post by: KL on January 20, 2012, 07:49:54 PM
.. a photo of a Me-109 E3 in German markings with the very same pattern of the 109D above, and the comment: 'Soviet aviation specialists after examination of a bf109E fighter'.
Of course, this is not a proof because the plane is in German markings, but we could look for other photos of German Bf-109D and E with the same pattern to see if it has the very same 'lines' visible on the left side of the Soviet 109 at NII VVS.

(http://base13.glasnet.ru/text/nem_sled/2-18.jpg)

IMHO, analogy with other export Me-109Es is more useful in this case...  the rest is interpretation of shadows  ;)
KL


Title: Re: Soviet Me-109 E
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on January 20, 2012, 10:11:37 PM
Hi Konstantin,
perhaps... but I don't see protrusions able to project that shadow. One could at least attempt a research on German prewar Me.109s.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Soviet Me-109 E
Post by: KL on January 20, 2012, 11:05:39 PM
perhaps... but I don't see protrusions able to project that shadow. One could at least attempt a research on German prewar Me.109s.

Agree, it's a question for LW Experten!  ;D

but, why would Soviet Emils differ from other export Me-109Es?
Another Swiss Emil
(http://www.ww2incolor.com/d/620857-2/SWISS-Me109-E3)

Not only Swiss and Yugoslavian, but Romanian Emils too!
(http://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Bf-109E/Bf-109E-RRAF-7FG-(+37)/images/1-Bf-109E-RRAF-Gr7-Romania-1942-01.jpg)
(http://ww2total.com/WW2/History/Orders-of-Battle/Romania/Romanian_Me109-px800.jpg)

together with German "splinter" camouflaged Me-109E for comparison
(http://ww2total.com/WW2/Weapons/War-Planes/Fighter-Planes/German/Bf-109/images-Me-109-E/Romanian_and_German_Me109_overPloesti-px800.jpg)


Title: Re: Soviet Me-109 E
Post by: AC26 on January 22, 2012, 09:11:26 PM
Agree, it's a question for LW Experten!  ;D

but, why would Soviet Emils differ from other export Me-109Es?
I don't count myself as Luftwaffe Experten, but IIRC Swiss Bf 109E's had local, not German, armament.

Greetings,

AaCee


Title: Re: Soviet Me-109 E
Post by: barneybolac on February 06, 2018, 09:02:13 AM
AFAIK Soviet union bought some planes for testing purposes (Do-215, Ju-88A, Fi-156 etc).

Well this has to be one of the JU-88's then.

(http://i66.tinypic.com/4uhoy8.jpg)


Title: Re: Soviet Me-109 E
Post by: 66misos on February 06, 2018, 11:21:59 AM
Hi,
follwong photos are from http://aviadejavu.ru/Site/Crafts/Craft20079-3.htm (http://aviadejavu.ru/Site/Crafts/Craft20079-3.htm):
Soviet delegation in Germany, 1939:
(http://aviadejavu.ru/Images6/AK/AK2010-09/24-2.jpg)

Bf 109E-3 S/N 2738 during trials by HII VVS KA:
(http://aviadejavu.ru/Images6/AK/AK2010-09/24-1.jpg)
http://aviadejavu.ru/Images6/AK/AK2000-02/7-1.jpg (http://aviadejavu.ru/Images6/AK/AK2000-02/7-1.jpg)
(http://aviadejavu.ru/Images6/AM/AM02-7/45-1.jpg)
Looks like original German 70/71/65 camo scheme and marking was completly repainted to then VVS standard - very glossy (silver or light blue AII?) underwing and solid dark green upperwing, no red stars.
Regards,
  66misos


Title: Re: Soviet Me-109 E
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on February 06, 2018, 05:06:23 PM
Hi,
beautiful Ju-88. The profile looks to be missing of air brakes.

I think to see German camouflage on the Me-109. Probably it was polished to make spped tests.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Soviet Me-109 E
Post by: IgorZ on February 12, 2018, 07:01:32 PM
http://warspot.ru/9843-vami-interesuetsya-lichno-tovarisch-stalin



Title: Re: Soviet Me-109 E
Post by: barneybolac on February 12, 2018, 07:21:34 PM
http://warspot.ru/9843-vami-interesuetsya-lichno-tovarisch-stalin



Interesting read The Russians were using it in a reconnaissance role during the war.
For some reason google wont translate the link but will if I copy and paste the text about the JU-88.

"The Great Patriotic War, which began on June 22, 1941, demanded from the Red Army in general and its Air Force in particular the prompt elimination of quickly revealed shortcomings. Lack of time and resources led at times to improvisations, the appearance of which in a more relaxed atmosphere would hardly be possible. Thus, the attempt to form a reconnaissance squadron of Spanish pilots on German aircraft in the summer-autumn of 1941 is of undoubted interest.

    "... And yet the next day the result of the meeting with the authorities was not slow to tell: Major Khomiakov called us. This pilot fought in Spain, in Madrid. Valentin Ivanovich talks warmly and sincerely with us.

    "Comrade Major, what task will we carry out?"

    - Everything has its time. The only thing I can say is that you are personally interested in Comrade Stalin. - This he reports almost in a whisper. "I'm telling you - it's all a secret ..."

So the Spanish fighter pilot Francisco Meronho described in the book of his memoirs "And again in battle," published in 1977, events that took place in Moscow in late July 1941. This story began on June 22, 1941, when the German invasion of the USSR forced Spanish immigrants, former pilots of the Republican Air Force, to start looking for an opportunity to continue the fight against the fascists.
Junkers Ju 88A (factory number is unknown), broken September 13, 1941 on take off from the airfield Aramil (20 km southeast of Sverdlovsk) by pilot Manuel Velazquez Leon. "You are personally interested in Comrade Stalin ..." | Military-Historical Portal Warspot.ru Junkers Ju 88A (factory number is unknown), broken September 13, 1941 on take off from the airfield Aramil (20 km southeast of Sverdlovsk) by pilot Manuel Velazquez Leon.

Initially, the Spanish volunteers were enlisted in the special NKVD brigade, where they were preparing for partisan actions in the rear of the Wehrmacht. However, good pilots, most of whom have combat experience, were quickly remembered. The fact is that the Red Army had huge problems with reconnaissance information: units capable of conducting long-range reconnaissance, until June 22, 1941, the Air Force of the Red Army did not exist in principle, so after the war began, the need for them increased many times.

In addition, in the Soviet Union, there were traditionally other power structures interested in intelligence information. Apparently, it is for this reason that the NKVD leadership also decided to form a separate reconnaissance unit, for the manning of which Spanish pilots were used.
Junkers Ju 88A (factory number is unknown), broken September 13, 1941 on take off from the airfield Aramil (20 km southeast of Sverdlovsk) by pilot Manuel Velazquez Leon. "You are personally interested in Comrade Stalin ..." | Military-Historical Portal Warspot.ru Junkers Ju 88A (factory number is unknown), broken September 13, 1941 on take off from the airfield Aramil (20 km southeast of Sverdlovsk) by pilot Manuel Velazquez Leon.

Unfortunately, to find out who exactly became the author of the idea and what specific tasks IV. Stalin intended to entrust the Spaniards, until it is not possible. Most likely, it was an ordinary aerial reconnaissance in the German rear with the aim of obtaining intelligence information regardless of the Air Force SC. In the summer of 1941, the Red Army repeatedly missed the Wehrmacht's crushing blows, while Soviet intelligence, including aviation, did not work well. Probably, it was supposed that, using German planes, it would be possible to be much more effective and, most importantly, safer to carry out reconnaissance flights in the interests of the top leadership of the USSR directly.

As a material part, German aircraft, purchased by the Soviet Union from Germany for acquaintance in 1940, were chosen. In total, 36 combat and training aircraft were purchased, including five Bf 109E, five Bf 110C, two Do 215 and two Ju 88, which were perfectly suited for reconnaissance.

According to the memories of the then included in the group of Spanish fighter pilots Francisco Meronjo and Antonio Arias, it included experienced veterans of the civil war in Spain Ladislao Duarte, Juan Lario, Manuel Leon, Fernando Blanco, Jose Pascual, Vincente Beltran and others. In addition to them, the unit included young Spanish pilots who graduated from the Kirovabad Flight School in 1939, who did not manage to return to their homeland before the defeat of the Republicans and remained in the USSR.
Reconstruction of the appearance of the Junkers Ju 88A from previous shots. Wide white stripes on the fuselage and wing planes could be an element of the rapid identification of the planes of the "Spanish" group, as well as the distinctive feature of the training aircrafts (artist Igor Zlobin), which was customary in the Air Force of the prewar period. "You are personally interested in Comrade Stalin ..." | Military-Historical Portal Warspot.ru Reconstruction of the appearance of the Junkers Ju 88A from previous shots. Wide white bands on the fuselage and wing planes could be an element of rapid identification"


Title: Re: Soviet Me-109 E
Post by: IgorZ on February 13, 2018, 03:18:35 AM
Wide white stripes were used to identify military aircraft used in aircraft schools, and apparently everywhere, and were applied to the wings and fuselage.