Sovietwarplanes

Hello

My name is Patrick
I am a French modeller and I build at present an I16.
My work is visible on this site http://www.master194.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=61933

I know Xan who posts on your forum that I have pleasure to read often and where we find a lot of informations there

I am going to represent this coded plane 91 and I have a question on its camouflage; it appears to be 2 colours, certainly green and black
(http://waralbum.ru/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/07062009i16.jpg)
Are you all right with that?

Do you know other pics of this plane?

Thank you in advance for your help

Hello Badger,

Glad to meet you here! ;)

Pascal

Bienvenu, Patrick!  Green and black should be the colours for a two-scheme topsides camouflage I-16 (here obviously overpainted with some temporary white winter camouflage paint).  It's interesting how crudely the bort (tactical number) 91 was painted and that the white paint was thinly and roughly applied to the wing(s).  That will make an interesting paint scheme if you can figure it all out.  Bon chance!

Regards,

Jason

Hi Patrick,
good to see you on this forum!  You culd post some photos of your I-16 build on this forum too...

Photo of "I-16 coded 91" is invariably identified as:
Командир эскадрильи из состава 728-го ИАП И.А.Иваненков (справа) слушает доклад пилота самолета-истребителя И-16 Денисова о выполнении боевого задания. Калининский фронт, январь 1943

I.A. Ivanenkov, commander of one of the squadrons of 728th iap (728th fighter regiment), receives report from I-16 fighter pilot Denisov about accomplished combat task.
Kalinin front, January 1943.

At least, you have the pilot's name, unit, time and where it fought...  ::)  Unfortunately no photos...   :(

Some of VVS aces, like Vorozheikin and Ignatiev, flew 728 iap I-16s at the same time (winter 1942-43).  Check thier biographies at
http://airaces.narod.ru/all2/ignatyev.htm
http://airaces.narod.ru/mongol/vorojeyk.htm

Vorozheikin's I-16 Type 17 has markings and fuselage number similar to I-16 coded "91"
(http://airaces.narod.ru/mongol/vorojey5.jpg)

From Igniatev's webpage it is clear that 728 iap received overhauled I-16s (probably many times during 1942).  Ignatiev flew to Moscow in April 1942 to exchange his I-16 for overhauled plane.
В апреле 1942 года мы перегнали 2 самолёта И-16 в Москву для ремонта, где мне довелось познакомиться с конструктором Поликарповым. Николай Николаевич интересовался, как воюем на его самолётах И-16. Много было вопросов, и на все вопросы мы давали конкретные ответы. Это был обаятельный, добродушный, культурный человек. В конце беседы он сказал, что скоро войдут в строй более современные самолёты с мощным вооружением, в частности, истребитель И-185. [ Игнатьев участвовал во фронтовых испытаниях этого самолёта, который в серию не пошёл. ] Получив отремонтированные И-16, мы возвратились в свой полк на аэродром Селижарово. Вскоре перелетели под Ржев на полевой аэродром. Ржев в то время был занят немцами.

Conclusion:
your I-16 is one of those overhauled planes (you know that it has early I-16 wing joined with late I-16 fuselage).  In winter 1942-43 it should have been camouflaged in green-black camouflage scheme.  Paints were most likely AMT-4, AMT-6 and AMT-7, not pre-war AII Green and AII Blue.

AMT-4 was matt and slightly more yellow than AII Green
AMT-7 was matt and slightly deeper blue (azur) than AII Blue

I-16 coded "91" may have had large fuselage star, that was repainted to make room for number 91

Hi Patrick, hi all,

I've collected some photos of camouflaged I-16s here, including 91.
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i16/i16painting/I16painting-war.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i16/i16painting/I16painting-war.htm)
As you can see, the camouflage of many (not all) I-16s can be considered an adaptation of the template of 1941, traced on the longer fuselage of a Yak. This could help to interpretate the photo and make a likely hypothesis on how the black bands were, when not visible on the photo of 91.



Hi Konstantin, what is suggesting this in the photo?

Regards
Massimo

Long ailerons from Type 5 and engine cowling from Type 10 or later.  Spinner could be from Type 24???
Of course you can't tell from the photo if I-16 was overhauled or not!  If you translate Russian text it will become clear that it was an overhauled plane 8)

KL   

Hi Konstantin,
then there is something strange: usually old style ailerons had the trim tab well separed from the aileron's end, but this one has the trim just on the end as later types.
Regards
Massimo

You,re right,I didn?t noticed it in the picture till now,and aparentelly,the wing ribs reach the wing leading edge as in Type 5.Greetings.

Martin

we had this dicution in the post of Badger, but the Badger model was too advanced to make the change...
http://www.master194.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=61933&start=200 (http://www.master194.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=61933&start=200)
(use the google tranlator)
Xan

Hi mister K,
your link shows sa pilawskii profil, he is anywere!!!  ;)
Seriously, you say that the plane was paint in AMT4/6/7
was it the case of all two colored camouflted I-16 ?
Cant' it be in AII green /AII blue, and overpaint with AMT-4 to applied new directives?
I imagine planes with the old camouflage were not all repainted, Am I wrong ?
Xan

Hello to all

 thank you Konstantin, Massimo and all for these precisions
 concerning the type of wing we had a discussion about it on the forum master194 and the opinions are shared
 the photo does not clearly allow to define the exact type because of the trim at the end of aileron


For the camouflage we can  distinguish the black zones on the fuselage but on the wing for me it?s impossible

Do you think that the wings were also camoufled in green and black ?

Patrick, the black on the wing root appears to continue onto the wing itself.  Although there may have been some examples, I don't know of any aeroplanes that were painted in the black/green camouflage, but with the wings remaining overall green on the top.  This doesn't mean that it didn't happen, just that if it did, it must have been rare indeed.

Regards,

Jason

If this was a Yak or LaGG made in 1942 everything would be straightforward:  June 1941 black-green scheme and AMT-4 & AMT-6.

I-16 No 91 is a very different story!!!  Something that is not visible from the staged propaganda photo are the desperate measures Soviet VVS was forced to make in 1941 and 1942:
- many prewar regiments suffered such heavy losses that they were simply disbanded.  New regiments were mobilized from survivors, or from flying schools students with some 20 hours in air.
- VVS had to throw in combat their last reserves:  planes from flying schools, retired old models, repaired wrecks.

728 iap and its I-16 No 91 are representative for these desperate measures:
- regiment was formed in 1942 from Chugaev Flying School instructors (this explaines why it was relatively sucsesful and several pilots became aces)
- Regiment was armed with I-16s of early models from the school or planes that were overhauled in 1942.  728th regiment flew a mix of I-16 types and some composit planes like I-16 No 91.

I-16 No 91 is almost certainly one of the overhauled planes:
- it's a composit - Type 5 wing and Type 10 0r later fuselage, maybe M-62 engine
- it's armed with RS rockets.  This instalation on early types actually started in 1941
- lack of landing gear doors
- oversized red stars

Following are I-16s overhauled at Zavod 51 Moscow in 1942 - one of them could be yours I-16 No 91!!!

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/3be02f4720a7.jpg)

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/605843254_cc7e35d702.jpg)

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/z1-20.jpg)

(http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/5/photoarch.36/0_16912_73cee7f7_L.jpg)

(http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/3707/photoarch.3b/0_169fa_9df75216_L.jpg)

(http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/3707/photoarch.3c/0_16a49_b4656edf_L.jpg)

(http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/3009/photoarch.3d/0_16a88_8ac01225_L.jpg)

I-16 No 91 was overpainted in 1942 for sure!!!  What paints?  my guess AMT... What scheme?  my guess modified June 1941 black-green...  What pattern?  nobody knows...

those pics are wonderfull.
I have a question, are those red stars paint just for the propaganda pic or not?
I tell that because the camouflage paint is not painted, only the red stars...

Konstantin you didn't answer my question; do you believe some planes could have been AIIgreen/AIIblue with an addition of AMT-6 black when new directives appeared ? I understand that AMT6/AMT4/AMT7 was applied in new planes but what about the old one (I thing we allready have this discution, excuse me  :)
Xan

No, I don't think they had time to change size of stars just for propaganda What for???


June 1941 directive was specific:  Planes in operational units that were already green were to be camouflaged with black fields only.  AII Green + Black was possible!!! Undersides were not changed, so  AII Green + Black + AII Gray  and AII Green + Black + AII Light Blue were both posible depending when planes were made (before or after May 1940)

But, I-16 No 91 was overhauled (overpainted) a year later in 1942!!!! 728 iap wasn't an operational unit in summer 1941; it didn't exist!!!.

your answer is very clear thank you.

In your opinion in witch colour are panted the I-16 in the factory ? they seem to be i, AII aluminium but it's a non sens in this period...
Xan

Some information about 728 iap is published in Osprey's "Polikarpov Aces" by M. Maslov.
It confirms what we have previously seen about old I-16 types, long ailerons, RS-82s and 728 iap aces:

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/728%20iap/OspreyI-16Ignatiev1.jpg)
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/728%20iap/OspreyI-16Ignatiev2.jpg)

There was some misscommunication between the author and profile artist, so the book ended with misslabeled/missidentified profiles:

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/728%20iap/OspreyI-16No91.jpg)
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/728%20iap/OspreyI-16No26.jpg)

thank you Konstantin for yours research and answer

now I know what I have to do :repaint the lower surfaces in AMT 7 and the upper in AMT 4 with AMT 6..not too much complicated
but I'll not modify the wings now

sorry my plane will not historically be faithful but I'll not make another so original decoration

Hi all,
I think that the black-green camouflage, under the white winter layer, should be similar to this:
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i16/i16painting/template.jpg)
I can't guarantee that it's right, but it's likely on the base of the images that I've shown.
Regards
Massimo

For reference:
Prescribed pattern, June 1941
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/1941-43/template-single.jpg)

Sept 1941
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i16/i16painting/i-16-13.jpg)

Before March 1942
(http://www.aviarmor.net/interest/photo/finnish_data/i16_153iap_1.jpg)

Approx May 1942
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i16/i16painting/red30.jpg)

Massimo?s suggestion is very good, IMHO for No 91 it should be slightly modified:
-Black field on cockpit side is absent
-Black semi-disc under number 91 is very faint, maybe not even black.

This plane may have had originally mid-fuselage black fields as Massimo suggests; but with large red star behind the cockpit and number under cockpit doors.  All this was repainted in green and new number 91 was painted behind the cockpit.

On tail surfaces, only black fields are overpainted with white washable paint, green was left as is.  Maybe the wings were overpainted the same way (?white over black only?)?

Hi Konstantin, hi all,
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i16/i16painting/91m.jpg)this is where I think to see the black and green parts on the photo, and are consistent enough with the scheme traced on the Yak-1. There are uncertainties on the contours of the small dot on the fuselage, perhaps due to repaintings.
Regards
Massimo

Hi everybody


Yes it's also my opinion! very good job indeed!


Yes Massimo i see like you!
very good job too!

regards

patrick

Fuselage star was standard before the war and in 1941 black-green scheme.  I-16s made between 1939 and 1941 had factory painted red stars.  From Photographic evidence it is obvious that many (not all!) overhauled I-16s had fuselage star, sometimes oversized.

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i16/i16painting/i-16-13.jpg)

(http://www.aviarmor.net/interest/photo/finnish_data/i16_153iap_1.jpg)

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i16/i16painting/red30.jpg)

IMHO, area behind the cockpit is overpainted in green.  At least part of black semi-circle is overpainted or it is visible through green paint.

KL

Hi,
it's possible that there was a star and was repainted with camo colors. There is a light triangle over a corner of the 9 suggesting the tip of a deleted star.
Regards
Massimo

Hi everybody

i have painted the black-green camouflage with white overpaint(just for fun at the beginning),

(http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww263/badger_150/I%2016/Image72.jpg)

(http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww263/badger_150/I%2016/Image73.jpg)

but i'm not satisfied with the under surfaces repainted in AMT7, so i decided to redo all the paint :-[

Hi Badger,
what a pity, it looked nice on the photos.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Badger,
nice I-16  :)

IMHO black shuld be darker!

(http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4106/5024985043_63978cc116_o.jpg)

This LaGG-3 fragment is dusty, but lower part will give you an idea...

Hi,
if I don't miss, they have put a print of my image of MiG-3 red 1 on the wreck on the background.
Regards
Massimo

Hello

Having redone completely the paint, I am in the final straight and the end is close but it stays some more of work of weathering before the assembly of the puzzle

I tested the technique of the lacquer for hair for the wear of the white distemper on wings? the first one for me and I admit that the result pleases me well

The implementation is relatively simple: 2 layers of lacquer which I let dry approximately 20 minutes before spraying of the matt white HUmbrol ?namel?a small break the time to clean completely the a?ro (approximately 15 minutes).. then with an old brush hairs of which were shortened way crew cut we work the surface delicately with some warm water until remove the layer of white

(http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww263/badger_150/I%2016/Image74.jpg)

hope you agree with the result

Hi Badger,
very good looking work, I hope to see it completed soon.
Regards
Massimo

It's looking very nice, Badger150 - excellent work!

Regards,

Jason

Hi Badger,
black AMT-6 looks better now.  And white MK-7 is really convincing!
I would not worry about undersides - looks good for AII Blue, which is possible for 1942...  :)

Cheers,
KL

Badger,

is it possible to explain the MK-7 white how you achieved the subtle and realistic weahtering effect?

Michel

Thank you all for yours messages



Hi Michel
as i said , I sprayed of the lacquer for hair on the camo, then the matt white  which I rubbed with a wet brush.
it's necessary to proceed by small areas to control the effect of wear, and know how to stop when it is necessary

Finally this technique is rather simple and allows attractive effects

A the hairspray technique. :D
You did a great job on that.
Impressive.

Hello

It?s almost the end!

Some weathering to be applied, and aluminium adhesive to be painted on the base of the windscreen

(http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww263/badger_150/I%2016/Image75.jpg)

(http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww263/badger_150/I%2016/Image77.jpg)

(http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww263/badger_150/I%2016/Image78.jpg)

Very nice-looking model, I like it very much.
What is 'aluminium adhesive'?
Regards
Massimo

Thanks Massimo

I stuck a small strip of adhesive aluminium around the windscreen to make the junction with the fuselage as on the photo below

(http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww263/badger_150/I%2016/windscreen.jpg)
source svsm.org

Well made.
Regards
Massimo

Badger150,

I like it alot.
This is well done.

Michel

Hi Badger150,
nice I-16 model!

If you missed it, we have discussed "winter camouflage" recently at http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1388.msg9601;boardseen#new

Your I-16 is one of those planes that were only partially repainted in white.  Temporary white MK-7 is not washed away from forward fuselage (and possibly wing leading edges) - those parts have never been painted in white.  Following photo shows how wing leading edges were covered with white fabric to reduce shadow:

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/Zamaskirovani_Il2.jpg)

just a suggestion for a diorama ...  ;)

KL
   

Thank you KL but i think it's too late  :'(

just for fun I enjoied recreating the scene according to the original photo

(http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww263/badger_150/I%2016/Image79.jpg)

Very very nice photo. It reflects the original very well.
Regards
Massimo

Brilliant job, Badger150!

Regards,

Jason

High Badger, why don't you look for two figurines ?
Xan

Hello Xan

Yes it would be nice for a dio but I have never made figurines, and this art asks for a lot of experience for a good and realistic result

I did not look but I doubt that there is this exact model of figurines for these 2 pilots

HAPPY NEW YEAR

Let us wish that 2013 will be a great and beautiful year with a lot of new wonderful kits

(http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww263/badger_150/I%2016/Image81.jpg)

(http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww263/badger_150/I%2016/Image86.jpg)

(http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww263/badger_150/I%2016/Image87.jpg)

(http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww263/badger_150/I%2016/Image91-1.jpg)

Happy New Year to you also, Badger150, and once again a beautiful Ishak!

Best Regards,

Jason

Excellent I-16 Badger.The worn out winter finish and the wheatering are very well executed,congratulations for this outstanding work.Greetings.

Martin

Nie looking I-16.

Hi Badger150,

very nice model. I really feel the cold weather when looking at that snowy airfiled  :)
I really like how you made number "91", imitating original rough hand brushing.

Only one question. Photos of original I-16 posted in this thread show sharp demarcation lines between green and black. It looks like either hand brushed or masked and airbrushed.
Your first version had also sharp demarcation lines between green and black. Why did you change it and your final version has them soft?
Happy modeling.

Regards,
     66misos

Hi Badger150!

You have chosen the roundish spinner (late type). I think your model needs the pointed type of spinner (early type).

Greetings
Bert

Hi Badger,  :)
I still believe that area under and behind the cockpet was actually repainted in green...  ;)

There was a Red Star behind the cockpit, there was probably a black "half-cyrcle" blob under the star, and there might have been a squadron number under the cockpit.
White temp paint probably covers original black fields on wings and rear fuselage.

Compare orig photo and your montage
(http://waralbum.ru/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/07062009i16.jpg)
(http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww263/badger_150/I%2016/Image79.jpg)

Otherwise, good job, and a fun project!  :)
Regards,
KL