Sovietwarplanes

Hi,
I've uploaded a page of profiles of Il-4 and DB-3F at http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/db3-il4/db3-il4.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/db3-il4/db3-il4.htm).
The artwork and research is of Tapani.
The page is still on work for adding some profiles and for minor corrections.
If anyone has suggestions of any kind, please let us know.
Regards
Massimo

Spasiba Massimo! I just changed the intended schemes for my two kits and now have three new choices to decide among. Good stuff there, much more interesting than the picks on the decals I have.

Now if only Zvesda or (dare I suggest something so outlandish) Mr Tamiya would decide that the world would be a better place with a 48th kit of this beast.

Nice additions to the page on the IL-4, Massimo.  I'll second the 1/48th scale IL-4, Kevin; it would look nice next to my Tamiya arrow.

Regards,

Jason

Hi Kevin and Jason,
a kit in 1/48 would be interesting for sure. But I fear that the type is poorly reproduced in the basic 1/72 too, to say nothing about its predecessor DB3 that is not too beautiful, but is important and can wear a lot of interesting field made camouflages.
Do you know any good building report of an Il-4, please?
Regards
Massimo

None of any value. I just checked my bookmarks and none deal with modeling either 72d "kit."

I threw the one print "modeling" article I had away since it was mostly pretty pictures of the modeler's completed build with nothing to offer about how he dealt with the kit.

I have both 72d kits, they occupy the same space in the lowest ranks of kit quality, think 1970. Each one has some advantages over the other but neither is superior to the other, or superior to much else.
I bought all of the Gophy/Groby?Goofy whatever that line was resin & it is beautiful! This all from memory. Decal sheets too, I forget which at the moment but whatever they offer, I'm using a couple of your selections instead.

Now long ago here I promised an in-progress review of the Yer-2 that I haven't started so I won't be tempted again. However, later maybe I'll bring the kits, resin & decals upstairs, give them a once-over & post my impressions to explain my judgement, or maybe adjust it.

Hi,
I've uploaded one more profile and updated another one. It's all for some time. I hope that Tapani will find time and enthusiasm to prosecute the work on the page again.
I remember vaguely a page about the kitbashing of models of Zvezda and Revell (or VEB, it's the same) made by Ken Duffey. I've no longer the link.
Regards
Massimo

Now that you mention it, I also recall such an article. So it's out there somewhere.
I no longer let AMS rule my modeling, now that I have rediscovered the joy of actually getting models finished, I try to live by "good enough."
With these IL-4s, I'll worry more about good basic modeling, rather than strict accuracy that no one in my modeling circles will ever notice. With the resin sets and careful building, I'll get all the complements that I'd get anyway. And, more importantly, I'll be able to show completed models!
I kind of alternate between "shake&bake" kits and serious challenge limited run level kits. Each bring their own kind of satisfaction.
And now that summer is here, maybe I'll show the most important thing: action over talk!!

I agree, I fear that we haven't to be too severe with Il-4 kits, if we really want to complete any building. However I have to open the box of my Revell and understand why it is said to be so ugly.
Regards
Massimo

Hi,
should anyone be interested, there is some discussion on Il-4 at http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?s=5816852c9cef0df8ead9489e3f9741c2&showtopic=234919031&pid=1041233&st=20& (http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?s=5816852c9cef0df8ead9489e3f9741c2&showtopic=234919031&pid=1041233&st=20&)
Regards
Massimo

Hi,
I've uploaded a new profile of Tapani and photos in this page
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/db3-il4/tapani/3torpedo.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/db3-il4/tapani/3torpedo.htm)
We hope to increase the page with some unhedited paintings in the near future.
Regards
Massimo

Hi, a new one. This is particularly nice.
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/db3-il4/tapani/17brushed.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/db3-il4/tapani/17brushed.htm)
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/db3-il4/tapani/17prof.jpg)

An Il-4 in 1/48.
That's what we need. :D

Maybe in 1/72 too... existing kits are rather poor.
Regards
Massimo

Actually It could be a success in 1/48, but who's got the balls enough to make it !? Trumpeter for sure.
It's unlikely that Eduard or ICM or Zvezda someday release this, but who knows.  A Model stays on
smaller scales i think.

I think that it will indeed take a while that a company will release an Il-4 in 1/48.
But it will be released more by Zvezda, Modelsvit or Bilek then Trumpeter or even Eduard.

I'd be happy with a decent kit in 1/72nd scale.  It's ridiculous when you think that one of the most important VVS bombers does not even have an accurate model in 1/72nd scale.  I have a Zvezda kit and a Revell kit I may attempt to kitbash into a reasonably accurate Il-4, but I shouldn't have to do that.

Regards,

Jason

And it's even worse for the DB-3!
Regards
Massimo

http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/db3-il4/tapani/10dots.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/db3-il4/tapani/10dots.htm)
Another great one
Regards
Massimo

That is a nice one, Massimo!  At the risk of restating the obvious, if only we had a nice 1/72nd scale model of the Il-4 (DB-3F, DB-3) to paint this on!  Maybe someday the model manufacturers will take time out from their F/A-18's and Bf-109E's to grace us with one.

Regards,

Jason

Let's hope so... maybe ICM, but they are already late of years with their releases.
Regards
Massimo

The latest work of Tapani.
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/db3-il4/tapanidb3/db3red3cam.jpg)
The whole page with photos is at
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/db3-il4/tapanidb3/db3red3cam.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/db3-il4/tapanidb3/db3red3cam.htm)
Regards
Massimo

Again, a very interesting camouflage, and again, I wish there were a decent kit to apply it to.

Regards,

Jason

I wonder if it's possible to suggest it to Amodel, aside the Il-4, R-10, UT-1 and 2  and other widely used planes, instead of devolving their efforts in unknown prototypes as the unuseful Yak-6M, sold into two boxes as if it was operative.
Regards
Massimo

Hi,
here is the latest drawing by Tapani.

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/db3-il4/tapani/102.jpg)

http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/db3-il4/tapani/102.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/db3-il4/tapani/102.htm)

Regards
Massimo

Now that is nice!  If I ever get around to kitbashing my semi-accurate Il-4 (from the Revell and Zvezda kits), I may just have to paint it in this scheme.

Regards,

Jason

This would look superb on the model! well done :)

I like that one. :D
I've got some discussion which is responsible for the international customer service of Xuntong and told him how the world is waiting for an Il-4!

Good, Michel!  Maybe they'll come out with some in 1/72nd scale and 1/48th scale.  And both versions of course - the DB-3 and the DB-3F (Il-4).

Regards,

Jason

The guy from Xuntong was surprised when I mentioned of the interest for the Il-4 and he would pass this trough to management.
So fingers crossed. :D

This would be good. Xuntong... are those that made the Tu-2?
Regards
Massimo

Yes, they're the same people Massimo.  I suppose if they made the Il-4 it would also be in 1/48th scale, like their Tu-2 (anybody here actually seen one in person; the kit, not the actual aeroplane?).  I'd rather it were in 1/72nd scale, my much-preferred scale, but it would be nice to see a reasonably accurate Il-4 in any scale.

Regards,

Jason

I agree, 1/72 is more important for large planes. Who knows if they will scale down their Tu-2 some day?
Regards
Massimo

Hi,
Tapani has made some new 3-views drawings of DB-3:

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/db3-il4/tapanidb3/1red2w-t.jpg)
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/db3-il4/tapanidb3/1red.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/db3-il4/tapanidb3/1red.htm)
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/db3-il4/tapanidb3/15red-t.jpg)
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/db3-il4/tapanidb3/VP-11V-t.jpg)
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/db3-il4/tapanidb3/db-11story.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/db3-il4/tapanidb3/db-11story.htm)

Regards
Massimo

Very nice, Massimo, thank you for posting these!  Regarding the Il-4, it looks like Roll Models have the old Goffy resin upgrade set for the Zvezda kit (at least they've charged me for it, which hopefully means it's on its way).  I'll post some comments on it when I receive it, either here or on another thread.

Regards,

Jason

and again "hypothetical" AMT-1 as early as 1941? ???  How do you explain it?  Why light brown and not something else?

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/db3-il4/tapanidb3/1red2w.jpg)

I think I can see a red star on the wing upper surface???
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/db3-il4/tapanidb3/1redf.jpg)

Why light blue undersides if plane was originally painted overall light gray or silver??
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/db3-il4/tapanidb3/1red2w.jpg)

Regards,
KL

Hi,
if it's not some light brown similar to AMT-1, then make a more likely hypothesis, please. Take in account that it looks matt.
The undersurfaces could also be silver or grey.
Hi Jason, I've seen some photos of that set, looks able to give some improvement on the engines and landing gear. The set for the cockpit results out of production.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
the subject is poorly researched.  Try first to answer:  Who, when, where?
What unit?  How were painted other planes in that unit?  What airfield?  Other planes at the same airfield? 
When you answer some of these questions we may start with hypotheses.
There must be more than one photo of this plane - German tourist usually took more than one low-rez photo...


Yes, I can see that, but a better photo would be more convincing.
It took me a lot of time and effort to convince you that luster (glossy vs.matt) is an important property for Soviet paints.  Not so long ago, you wrote on this forum that both AII and AMT paints were "semi-gloss"...  ;)


Undersides were silver or grey!!!  Light blue is very unlikely...

Regards,
KL

Hi Konstantin,
unfortunately, at present time there is only this photo available, despite our research. If you find informations, please let me know.
The original painting of DB-3 was nearly always silver, so it's likely that this color was preserved.
About the finish of AMT, the articles of Orlov on M-Hobby gave FS numbers starting with 2 for AMT paints and with 3 for A-m paints. As you know, in the FS catalogue 2 is for semigloss  (or semimatt if you prefer) and 3 for matt.
Regards
Massimo

Hi,
I've uploaded another profile of Tapani:
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/db3-il4/tapanidb3/4black-mtap1-t.jpg)
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/db3-il4/tapanidb3/4black-mtap1.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/db3-il4/tapanidb3/4black-mtap1.htm)
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
DB-3T should be gray, not silver.
Most likely only planes made in 1939 were silver.  Planes made in 1937/38 and 1940 were gray.
Approx 2/3rds of all DB-3s were made in 1939, but all 97 DB-3Ts were made in 1938.
HTH,
KL

PS:  why don't you post plane photos first, discuss them, and then draw profiles? 

Hi,
I have seen only the prototype of DB-3T painted grey, all other ones were clearly silver. You can see the photos.
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/db3-il4/tapanidb3/4black-mtap1f.jpg)
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/db3-il4/tapanidb3/15a.jpg)
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/db3-il4/tapanidb3/12tail.jpg)
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/db3-il4/db3-il4camo/db-3fsilver.jpg)
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/sb/sb-evolution/silverbomber.jpg)

If you find photos of DB-3 /DB-3F in grey overall, please let me know, they worth a profile.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
you have probably forgotten our discussion about SB bombers:  silver AE-8 hasn't been produced till late 1938 and it was used only during 1939.

At the time when DB-3Ts were made, silver AE-8 didn't exist..  ;D

Waving with photos will not help - it is very hard, usually impossible to distinguish light gray AE-9 from metallic white AE-8 on B/W photos...  ::)

IMHO following two planes are CLEARLY light gray:

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/db3-il4/tapanidb3/4black-mtap1f.jpg)
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/db3-il4/db3-il4camo/db-3fsilver.jpg)

Hope this helps,
KL

Hi Konstantin,
I don't think at all. Your information is probably relative to SB, but photos of SB show clearly the difference between grey planes and silver planes, so there is not any reason to think that grey and silver are undistinguishable on DB-3s. 
In any case, the profile represents the plane how it appears on the photo.
Regards
Massimo

They look definetly NMF and not grey.

Number 11 looks silver on some frames on this collage, and perhaps grey on some others.
But it's definetly alumine painted, no matter any dates. Just like all Finnish captured and
shot down Db:s during a winter war.

Sb:s are different case.


http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/db3-il4/tapani/shining-red11.htm

All metal planes were painted - to prevent duralluminium corosion.  No NMF planes in VVS!!!


As I said, silver enamel did not exist in 1938.  photos that clearly show difference between silver and light gray are rare!!!  It's usually inconclusive...


There is a piece of DB-3 fabric preserved in Winter War Museum in Helsinki - it was clearly a gray DB-3 repainted in silver.  Red squadron number was also repainted in silver.  This was done in winter 1939 (winter camouflage?); your photo is supposedly from 1938.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f2/Sarvanto_fin.jpg)

Hi Konstantin,

this is something about SB  from the book of Maslov that you could recognize:

So, silver enamel did exist in 1938.

It would be interesting to know more about the piece of tissue in the Winter War Museum. Where is written that it was grey repainted silver?

About the photo, I am confident that most of them allow to distinguish well between grey and silver, and the profile reflects the photo of the plane.

Regards
Massimo

Yes, I recognize it - I posted it.
It was posted at scalemodels.ru forum too; there was a discussion, more evidence and the conclusion was that silver had been introduced at the end of 1938.

In spite of all my posts, I can see that I am wasting my time on this forum.  "Photographic evidence" and "deciphering colours from b/w photos" still rule this forum.

Regards,
KL

Actually in this case the number 5 was Red on black surround. Still some traces of the original colour exist. One of those six Db:s he (Jorma Sarvanto) shot down in Jan. 40.

Perhaps it wasn't "'red 5." So please don't get stuck for it, it Could be Yellow or blue or orange or pink 5.

You don't need to win an argument in convincing fashion to have your view heard.  It's always better to have heated arguments, as that is a sign of intellectual rigor.  I am a friend to Massimo, but appreciate your inputs as well, even if you two rarely play well together.  >:(  Be that as it may, people can read differing points of view here and come to their own conclusions.  You needn't always agree.

Your command of the information is impressive, inputs always informative and thought-provoking and I sincerely hope you will stay.

I agree. I know very little about this subject and clearly there is a lot of conflicting information out there so I appreciate being able to look at what is offered and decide for myself how I want to go. I am not a super detailed modeler, I really don't care if my AMT 11 is an exact match on the Yak-3 I'm building as it was on the real plane, but I would like it to be somewhat close. I'd hate to paint it in two shades of green only to find out it is really two shades of grey.

When there is agreement, I can feel confident following that line of thinking. When there is disagreement I have to sort through the info and decide which appears to be better supported, but at least I am forewarned it is an area of controversy.

I enjoy Massimo's profiles, and am glad he takes the time to post them. I also appreciate KL's (sorry don't know your real name) input. While there is occasionally disagreement I can still easily use both sources of information in my model making. I also build WW1 aircraft, and if you want to see some heated discussions, just ask about the color of Manfred von Richthofen's last triplane on a WW1 themed forum. So this is not completely new to me.


For me this is simply a hobby and something of an artform, so I fully intend to build a MiG-3 in the white with red wingtips scheme, knowing full well it is inaccurate but it looks cool. I like knowing that going in though, as a choice. I would be very disappointed to build it that way only to find out that profile is most likely a case of bad B&W color interpretation.

Hi Aaronw,
Thank you, In the case of the DB-3 and Il-4, the profiles are made by Tapani, that is Saivila.

Regards
Massimo

Konstantin,

All the effort you make to discuss the different topics are well appreciated!!!
I hope that you don't leave this forum and still be very critic about the topics that are published.
For me personaly I'm a VVS fan but concerning correctness I leave this to the professionals.
So I think that the input from you is very welcome.
Even if other modelers also discussing if the data is correct.

Michel

Thanks for the nice words!

This picture.Lt. Jorma Sarvanto holding a piece from one of the six DB-3 bombers (no 5) he shot down on the 6th of January 1940.

About colouring of these DB-3s in this day . Here is a part based on Sarvantos logbook.


"The second patrol took off after noticing that Lieutenant Sarvanto had to go alone, but Sarvanto had a good head start. Now the clouds had disappeared from the sky at Utti, and Sarvanto discovered the handsome formation of DB bomber bellies lit by dim sun shining through the haze. He counted seven silver coloured DB-3 bombers. "

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f2/Sarvanto_fin.jpg)

DB-3 No 5 shot down by Sarvanto was silver in Jan 1940.  No doubts about that.
The piece of fabric, now displayed in Helsinki, shows that this plane was repainted in silver.  It was originally light gray - probably made in 1938



Sorry, I didn't get this...  It is "red 5" - everybody can see it in the Winter War Museum. 

Please get some color photos so we can see.  

Hi,
I've updated the drawings of TsKB-54 by Tapani. It's an uparmed DB-3 for escorting the formations of bombers.
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/db3-il4/tapanidb3/TsKB54.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/db3-il4/tapanidb3/TsKB54.htm)
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/db3-il4/tapanidb3/TsKB-54-t.jpg)
Regards
Massimo

That is an interesting variant of the DB-3.  I hadn't seen that one before.  It would make an interesting conversion, again if anyone ever came out with a decent kit of the DB-3.

Regards,

Jason

Massimo,
For TsKB-54-1 you have

More preciselly, this is an example for anodized dur-aluminium exterior.  Unpainted anodized dur-aluminium is also mentioned in SB link - it was actually against 1937 regulations, so very rarely seen on operational planes.

For TsKB-54-2 you have

In 1939 it was probably painted in silver AE-8.
AE-8 is enamel paint, not a dope! Nitro -cellulose AIN was a clear dope.
Dope definition from http://www.thefreedictionary.com/dope


Dope impregnates fabric, paint forms a layer...
HTH,
KL

Hi Konstantin,  thank for the clarification.

Here is another one:
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/db3-il4/tapanidb3/dotted5-t.jpg)
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/db3-il4/tapanidb3/dotted5.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/db3-il4/tapanidb3/dotted5.htm)
Regards
Massimo

Some new drawings:

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/db3-il4/tapanidb3/TsKB-26-prototype-t.jpg)
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/db3-il4/tapanidb3/TsKB-26-prototype.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/db3-il4/tapanidb3/TsKB-26-prototype.htm)

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/db3-il4/tapanidb3/1serie-t.jpg)
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/db3-il4/tapanidb3/1serie.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/db3-il4/tapanidb3/1serie.htm)

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/db3-il4/tapanidb3/seaplane-t.jpg)
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/db3-il4/tapanidb3/seaplane.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/db3-il4/tapanidb3/seaplane.htm)

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/db3-il4/tapanidb3/moskva-t.jpg)
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/db3-il4/tapanidb3/moskva.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/db3-il4/tapanidb3/moskva.htm)

Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
was that red plane painted by some standard paints or by some "custom made" paints? There are pictures on  your mig3 page showing pieces from real plane painted by "standard" red and dark red.
Could such paints be used also for painting red nose Yakimenko's Yak-3 - dark red front fuselage and standard red star on the propeller spinner?

Regards,
     66misos

Hi Misos,
I would guess that the colors coud be similar. I don't know if dark red was standard and what was its name, but a dark red was seen also on the MiG-1 in Veesiveehma for the number and trim fences.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,

in the article about TsKB-26 prototype at http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/db3-il4/tapanidb3/TsKB-26-prototype.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/db3-il4/tapanidb3/TsKB-26-prototype.htm) is sentence: "...and in another occasion it flew 5000 km with a 1000 kg payload at an average speed of 3254 km/h."

Probably you wanted to write something like 325,4 km/h.

Regards,
     66misos

Hi Misos,
thank you for the advice. You guessed right, it was 325.4. Not a Foxbat at all!
Regards
Massimo

Hi,
another profile of Tapani of a DB-3 with winter livery was uploaded at
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/db3-il4/tapanidb3/snow.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/db3-il4/tapanidb3/snow.htm)
Regards
Massimo

Massimo,

That's something for me. :D

Michel

Hi Michel,
are you interested into DB-3? It is very hard to model, with the poor kits available on the market.
Regards
Massimo