Sovietwarplanes

Great Patriotic War Aviation => Lend-lease planes => Topic started by: 66misos on June 27, 2012, 01:05:41 PM



Title: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on June 27, 2012, 01:05:41 PM
Hi,

I saw recently a document film "Two wars of Ivan Kozedub" (Две войны Ивана Кожедуба) on Youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lN1MrJEvW0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lN1MrJEvW0). As usually, there is a lot of shots just for "illustrative purpose", not strictly related to the subject. At 22:23-22:26 minute there is a short sequence showing unmasking plane with a lot of victory marks (stars). Here is a screenshot of it:

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/Pokryshkinasi-zfilmu-cca22minuta.jpg)

It seems to be some P-39.
Star seems to be red without white outline. Plus, stars are oriented horizontally, with the same number in the first 3 lines. The fourth line has (at least) 4 stars less than previous lines. When comparing panel lines and stars dimensions to Rechkalov's ones it seems to be 35-36 victory marks.
However, as far as I know Kozedub did not fly P-39.

I have an old hardcopy of hardcopy of Pokryshkin's P-39N "100" photo showing victory stars (unknown number) and part of serial no. 2900x:

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/Pokryshkin_P-39no100_v02.jpg)

So I checked on Internet Russian WWII Aces flown P-39 with the "enough" number of victories:

Pilot                        Victories       P-39 Victories    
Aleksandr I. Pokryshkin        59                  48
Nikolay Gulaev                   57                   41   
Grigori A. Rechkalov            56                  50   
Dimitriy B. Glinka                50                   41   

and then check their color profiles on the wp.scn.ru (http://wp.scn.ru) :

1.) Reckalov
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/Rechkalov.jpg)

(http://img.wp.scn.ru/camms/ar/297/pics/1_3_b1.jpg)
Stars are red but with the white outline plus they are not oriented horizontally, but slightly rotated to the left. Plus the first line contains more stars than the second and the third line.


2.) Gulaev Nikolay Dmitrievich
(http://img.wp.scn.ru/camms/ar/297/pics/1_38_b1.jpg)
Victory marks completely different.


3.) Dmitriy Borisovich Glinka
(http://img.wp.scn.ru/camms/ar/297/pics/1_51.jpg)
Too few victory marks, however layout could be.


And finally I found the AML Decals sheet on http://www.aml.cz/index.php/en/2012-04-25-17-22-02/item/119-amlc-8-014 (http://www.aml.cz/index.php/en/2012-04-25-17-22-02/item/119-amlc-8-014)
(http://www.aml.cz/media/k2/items/cache/47e29f9fe96a1771642fb05ac8a8fd00_XL.jpg)
AML Decals shows victory stars in a layout very similar to the screenshot picture but only 31 (not 35-36) of them and with the white outline (not plain red).


So finally it seems that Pokryshkin's P-39N "100" of serial no. 29004 could wear up to 36 plain red victory marks on the left gun bay cover.
Any comments/corrections/additions are welcome.

Regards,
       66misos




Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 27, 2012, 02:28:35 PM
Hi Michal,
the stars of the plane of Reckalov look head-down, I think that a head-up decal could be adapted if cutten to stripes and relocated.
I'm very doubtful on the blue background of the stars; P-39s were often delivered with white background, and I think that Soviets repainted it with green paint.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: KL on June 28, 2012, 02:45:18 AM
Slightly better reproductions

(http://amyat.narod.ru/memo/pokryshkina_mk/09.jpg)

(http://amyat.narod.ru/memo/pokryshkina_mk/10.jpg)

From Pokrishkin's biography by his wife Mariya

(http://amyat.narod.ru/memo/pokryshkina_mk/pokryshkina_mk.jpg)

http://amyat.narod.ru/memo/pokryshkina_mk/index.htm

HTH,
KL


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: KL on June 28, 2012, 04:51:38 AM
1945 Movie "Aleksandr Pokrishkin" can be viewd at
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYYkq20C_cI
or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QzeXEWmzn4&feature=related

few fragments in better rez can be seen at
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeqT3fJ1TtA&feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieR-k25UcVY&feature=related

Pokrishkin about the P-39 after the war
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTrHPMsigmQ&feature=related


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: KL on June 28, 2012, 05:34:32 AM
Pokrishkin's P-39 may not have had any victory markings.  Supposedly Pokrishkin was against anything that would attract enemy's attention.

Following drawing was published in 1990 P-39 booklet by Bakurski

(http://hobbyport.ru/mkmagazin/other/p_39/p_39_airacobra_2.jpg)

 


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: learstang on June 28, 2012, 09:24:19 PM
I'd read that also about Pokryshkin, that he wasn't in favour of "kill" markings.  Perhaps this was a machine painted for propaganda purposes?

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: KL on June 29, 2012, 06:15:09 AM
I'd read that also about Pokryshkin, that he wasn't in favour of "kill" markings.  Perhaps this was a machine painted for propaganda purposes?

Personally, I am very sceptical about this.  Yes, most of the published photos were taken for propaganda purposes by official photo correspondents.  Yes, photos were routinely retoushed (like photoshop today).

But, to repaint a plane or add some personall markings just for one photo session - not likelly....  It was easier to manipulate negatives/photos.  Or, in Pokrishkin's case - it was easier to photograph him in front of Rechkalov's colourfull P-39.

KL


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: KL on June 29, 2012, 07:14:59 AM
In addition to the heavilly retoushed photo (most likely the only one known) and 1945 movie which shows other 16giap planes, two other sources definitelly help to understand how Pokrishkin's Airacobra looked:
  
Aleksei Zakalyuk, a pilot of Pokrishkin's 16giap, was also a skilfull painter.  Several paintings he made in early 1950es represent Pokrishkin's combats.  Paintings were later, in 1970es and 1980es, reproduced in Pokrishkin's memoirs.  


(http://www.pobeda-60.ru/site/reportagi/166/pic16.jpg)

(http://www.sukhoi.ru/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=135436&d=1307198703)

(http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/pokr_ai8.jpg)

Red spinner seen on many later profiles probably originates from first painting.

In 1974, G. Golubyev, another 16 giap ace, publishes his memoirs (Pair with the "Hundredth")

(http://static.ozone.ru/multimedia/books_covers//1001366528.jpg)

(http://static.ozone.ru/multimedia/books_covers//1001207416.jpg)

Factory number 29004 and fuselage star with standard white and thin red outline are clearly visible .

HTH,
KL


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on June 29, 2012, 11:21:45 AM
Thanks for your info.
I watched briefly all that links. There is a video showing Pokryshkin in P-39 on highway. However, there is either P-39 no. 50 with red stars in white circles (K. Sukhov, 16 GIAP, Spring 1945):
(http://img.wp.scn.ru/camms/ar/297/pics/1_2_b1.jpg)

or P-39 without number. Plus another P-39 with 3 thin white stripes on upper wing (above guns?). I did not find there P-39 no. 13 or 100.

I met guys from AML Decals on the plastic kit show some time ago and I discussed Pokryshkin camo with them. I was told that Pokryshkin's mechanic confirmed that there were victory marks on P-39 no. 100. Unfortunately I do not know what is the source of this confirmation. Book, interview?

KL, I fully agree with you that it would not be very probable to paint 30+ victory stars on his arcraft only for some propaganda shot. But even less probable to paint them on someone's else aircraft.

However, when I look at (may be retouched) photo:
(http://amyat.narod.ru/memo/pokryshkina_mk/09.jpg)
I can see:
- there IS something painted on the upper part of the gun bay cover, top line clearly visible, line bellow visible partially,
- there is no thin white line on the bottom of the red flash on the rudder,
- fuselage red star is without white,
- hard to say whether fuselage red star is on the original blue circle, or blue circle is repainted to green.

Plus other P-39s from 16th GIAP have red spinner.

This picture could represent mentioned above:
(http://img.wp.scn.ru/camms/ar/297/pics/1_1_b2.jpg)
Only something should be painted on the gun bay cover.

That "something" (at least for me) could be victory marks, 35-36 red stars without white outline:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Pokryshkinasi-zfilmu-cca22minuta.jpg)

Regards,
     66misos




Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: KL on June 29, 2012, 05:14:59 PM
Thanks for your info.
I watched briefly all that links. There is a video showing Pokryshkin in P-39 on highway. However, there is either P-39 no. 50 with red stars in white circles (K. Sukhov, 16 GIAP, Spring 1945):
(http://img.wp.scn.ru/camms/ar/297/pics/1_2_b1.jpg)

or P-39 without number. Plus another P-39 with 3 thin white stripes on upper wing (above guns?). I did not find there P-39 no. 13 or 100.

Correct, no Pokrishkin's "100".  You must have noticed Pokrishkin in Rechkalov's P-39 cockpit wearing flying gear and that he did fly Suhov's plane.

However, when I look at (may be retouched) photo:
(http://amyat.narod.ru/memo/pokryshkina_mk/09.jpg)
I can see:
- there IS something painted on the upper part of the gun bay cover, top line clearly visible, line bellow visible partially,
- there is no thin white line on the bottom of the red flash on the rudder,
- fuselage red star is without white,
- hard to say whether fuselage red star is on the original blue circle, or blue circle is repainted to green.

1.  Photo is definitely retouched!  No doubts about that.  I would not rely on it very much, but it's a personal choice  ;)
2.  Blue disc is extremely unlikely.  It's a myth, profile artist's fantasy!  Most Soviet Airacobras were made as a Land-Lease contract and they had white circles.  Only those diverted from USAF contracts would have blue discs.  Only few, if any, of those existed.

HTH,
KL


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: KL on June 30, 2012, 04:53:09 AM
Pokrishkin's P-39 "100" was discussed at scalemodels.ru forum in 2009 at http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_14131_start_0.html

Igor Zlobin, who had studied original 16 giap journals and other relevant docs in archives, provides following information:

И так по документам ЦАМО и анализам фотографий самолетов 16 ГвИАП:
На кубани в апреле-июне в 16 ГвИАП
1- не было красных пилоток
2-не было красных коков
3-обозначения побед на самолете покрышкина неприсутствуют.

(http://s4.postimage.org/wyui6en6z/100.jpg)

(http://s3.postimage.org/b3jwksyqp/100.jpg)

Now when photo is dated (spring 1943!!!), other details make sense :
- Red tail tips were introduced in 16 giap in summer 1943
- Stars with wide white and thin red outline were introduced in Sept 1943.

IMHO, Pokrishkin's P-39 29004 case is closed... There were no victory marks on this plane.

KL


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on July 02, 2012, 01:21:35 PM
Hi KL,

thanks for your mail. I browsed also that russian pages - a lot of interesting info.
I still did do not give up regarding Pokryshkin's victory marks  ;)

However, while browsing russian pages, I found article of Alexander F. Klubov from 16. GvIAP http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/klubov.htm (http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/klubov.htm), that could teoretically address my first picture above - 35-36 victory stars on P-39 gun bay cover, although Klubov's victory stars distinguish between individual (red/white outline stars) and group (white stars) victories:

(http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/klubov2.jpg)

(http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/klubov3.jpg)

HOWEVER,
1.) you wrote
Quote
На кубани в апреле-июне в 16 ГвИАП
1- не было красных пилоток
2-не было красных коков
3-обозначения побед на самолете покрышкина неприсутствуют.

2.) accorging to the http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/pokrish1.htm (http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/pokrish1.htm) by the end of the June 1943 Pokryshkin won 27.
He won 35 victories on October 7, 1943, resp. 36 victories on November 5, 1943, e.g. definitely after the period you mentioned (april-jun 1943).







Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on July 02, 2012, 02:03:37 PM
I found this picture on the scalemodel.ru:

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/P-392x100a1x130.jpg?)

where from bottom to top are (if I read correctly) P-39 K15 "130", spring 1934, P-39 N-0 (S/N 29004) Summer 1943 and P-39 N-5 September 1943.

On the www.sukhoi.ru/forum  (http://www.sukhoi.ru/forum) there a reply (March 2006) to this picture:

Эти иллюстрации принадлежат "перу" все того же Игоря Злобина (там внизу и подпись есть) - вернется в мае, спросите у него, откуда это он рисовал. Кстати - он с Вами земляк
Да - и нос средней машины весь в звездюльках...

translated:
These images belong to the "pen" of the same Igor Zlobin (down there and the signature is).

KL, I think this is the same Igor Zlobin you mentioned in your post from Jun 29:
Quote
Igor Zlobin, who had studied original 16 giap journals and other relevant docs in archives...

The middle P-39 on that picture has something painted on the nose, and opinions in the discussion on that forum are similliar to mine:
- Да - и нос средней машины весь в звездюльках (e.g. Yes - the nose and the middle machine is in the stars)
- Вообще-то да - если хорошо приглядется именно на спорном борте 29004 есть звезды (e.g Actually, yes - if you look closely there are stars on controversial 29 004).

So I continue to search  ;)

Regards,
    66misos



Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on July 02, 2012, 04:01:02 PM
Sorry, I forgot to add link to the picture on the sukhoi forum.
Here it is:   http://www.sukhoi.ru/forum/showthread.php?t=45563&page=4 (http://www.sukhoi.ru/forum/showthread.php?t=45563&page=4)

    66misos


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: KL on July 03, 2012, 10:22:49 PM
I found this picture on the scalemodel.ru:

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-392x100a1x130.jpg?t=1341228611)
...
On the www.sukhoi.ru/forum  (http://www.sukhoi.ru/forum) there a reply (March 2006) ...

sukhoi.ru forum thread was a discussion between a bunch of computer artists looking for attractive skins.  Nobody there worked with primary sources.  Instead, they reffered to info available in popular literature and internet sources.  There was even a reference to Pilawskii's colour table...  :-X

Your picture is displayed at the museum in Novosibirsk.  Profiles are made by same Zlobin.  If posted in 2006, profiles are quite old.
Zlobin took part in 2009 discussion at scalemodels.ru and he presented corrected profile of the P-39 No 29004 with no viktory marks.

IMHO, the most relevant info is what Pokrishkin himself wrote - if he said no viktory marks, there were no victory marks, regardless of a poor retouched photo.

KL
 


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: KL on July 04, 2012, 07:39:07 PM
However, while browsing russian pages, I found article of Alexander F. Klubov from 16. GvIAP http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/klubov.htm (http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/klubov.htm), that could teoretically address my first picture above - 35-36 victory stars on P-39 gun bay cover, although Klubov's victory stars distinguish between individual (red/white outline stars) and group (white stars) victories:

(http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/klubov2.jpg)

(http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/klubov3.jpg)

Klubov's P-39 by I. Zlobin:

(http://scalemodels.ru/images/2012/06/1338751487_rrrrjo.jpg)


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: KL on July 04, 2012, 10:08:10 PM
Since 2009 at least 3 new 16th giap related books have been published:

Pokrishkin's biography by Timofeyev
(http://static.ozone.ru/multimedia/books_covers//1001088902.jpg)

Klubov's biography (same author)
(http://static.ozone.ru/multimedia/books_covers//1004120705.jpg)

16 giap history by Tabachenko
(http://static.ozone.ru/multimedia/books_covers//1005304824.jpg)

plus there are many memoirs;  by Pokrishkin, Golubyev, Suhov and others...
although photos are scarce - there should be enough information for the modellers. 


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on July 06, 2012, 01:45:55 PM
Hi,

I tried to summarize what known (to me) regarding Pokryhkin's P-39s.

1st P-39
version K-1, board no. "13", serial no. 42-4421
- period 9-Apr-43 to 20-Jun-43.
- Number "13" existed in two modifications, the first one in standard size, the second one enlarged. Red stars with black outline on fuselage and bottom side of the wing.
- Digits "13" latter repainted to "130".
- Up to 21 victories (e.g. till May 14, 1943). More than 20 (Pokryshkin?s memoirs ?Sky of war? (Небо войны)
- No victory marks.

http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/pokrish1.htm (http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/pokrish1.htm):
(http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/pokrish8.jpg)


2nd P-39
version D-2, board no. "100", serial no. 41-38520
- Pokryshkin flew the first time with his new "100" on 5-May-1943 (http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/pokrish1.htm),
- Used only for a short period of time, because hit and destroyed when parked on airfield by another pilot during unsuccessful landing.
- Red stars  with black trim over original blue  or repainted green (AMT4?) circles  on the fuselage and top and bottom side of the wing.
- Period from May 5, 1943 to end of May/ beginning of June?
- Up to 23-25 victories
- No victory marks.

Pokryshkin, should be minus red spinner and minus red tail tip:
(http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/pokrish2.jpg)

Rechkalov:
(http://www.redbanner.co.uk/History/ace_aircraft/rechkalov/Rech_P39D_38547-port.jpg)


3rd P-39
version N-0, board no. "100",  serial no. 42-9004
- photo shows only 2900 digits. I found info that 42-9004 was not produced. Could be numbers 42-90040 (v. N-0) or 42-90004 ?
- Equipped with two .30 cal guns in the wings,
- Red stars  with black trim over original blue  or repainted green (AMT4?) circles  on the fuselage and top and bottom side of the wing.
- Red tail tips  (in 16 giap introduced in summer 1943)
- No white trim on tail visible, even if red tail tip already painted.
- Red spinner?
- Period summer 1943, e.g. June-August 1943?
- Up to 30 victories (Aug 23, 1943)
- Victory marks ?

Victory marks (?) visible on the front bay cover:
(http://amyat.narod.ru/memo/pokryshkina_mk/09.jpg)

Igor Zlobin?s profile photo from 2006 for period Summer 1943. Red tail tip (no white trim) + red spinner. Victory marks on the front bay cover:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/Pokryshkin12_P-39N-0.jpg)

Igor Zlobin?s profile photo from 2009 for period Autumn 1943. No red tail tips, although introduced already in summer 1943? No red spinner. No victory marks:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/P-39_06.jpg)


4th P-39
version N-5, board no. "100", serial no. 42-19138 or 42-19188? I cannot see it clear enough on the Igor Zlobin's profile photo from 2006.
- Period september to May 1945?
- Then 31-46(52) victories.
- Red tail tips.
- Stars with wide white and thin red outline (introduced in Sept 1943).
- white trim on tail?
- Red spinner?
- No victory marks.

Profile could be minus victory stars and different serial number:
(http://img.wp.scn.ru/camms/ar/297/pics/1_1.jpg)

Igor Zlobin?s profile photo from 2006 for September 1943. Red spinner, red tail tip. No white trim on tail red tip, no white+red outline on fuselage/wing stars?
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Pokryshkin12_P-39N-5.jpg)

Rechkalov v.Q-15. Red spinner, red tail tip with white trim, fuselage/wing stars with white+red outline:
(http://www.redbanner.co.uk/History/ace_aircraft/rechkalov/Rech_P39Q_RGA-port.jpg)

Profiles and additional info:
http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww2/f/297/1/0 (http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww2/f/297/1/0)
http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/pokrish1.htm (http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/pokrish1.htm)
http://www.redbanner.co.uk/History/ace_aircraft/rechkalov/rechkalov.html (http://www.redbanner.co.uk/History/ace_aircraft/rechkalov/rechkalov.html)

Any advice, correction, additional info warmly welcome. I am still learning. ;)

KL, thank you for that books advise. I will try to find them on Amazon.

Regards,
       66misos


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: KL on July 06, 2012, 07:54:46 PM
I saw recently a document film "Two wars of Ivan Kozedub" (Две войны Ивана Кожедуба) on Youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lN1MrJEvW0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lN1MrJEvW0)...  At 22:23-22:26 minute there is a short sequence showing unmasking plane with a lot of victory marks (stars). Here is a screenshot of it:

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Pokryshkinasi-zfilmu-cca22minuta.jpg)

Hi 66misos,

The pilot who appears with P-39 in the short sequence is Dmitriy Glinka.  It's probably a news reel about him.  Glinka's final score was 50 victories, close to Pokrishkin's, he flew P-39s from 1943.  IMHO, your screenshot shows one of his P-39s.  The only unknown is when the movie was made - 1943, 1944 or 1945...  My guess would be 1944...

Following photos are made in April 1943 at the time of Kuban battles
(http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/glinkad9.jpg)
(http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/glinkad10.jpg)
(http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/glinkad12.jpg)
(http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/glinkas1.jpg)
(http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/glinkas2.jpg)

From http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/glinka_d.htm


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: KL on July 07, 2012, 01:04:01 AM
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Pokryshkinasi-zfilmu-cca22minuta.jpg)

It seems to be some P-39.
Star seems to be red without white outline. Plus, stars are oriented horizontally, with the same number in the first 3 lines. The fourth line has (at least) 4 stars less than previous lines. When comparing panel lines and stars dimensions to Rechkalov's ones it seems to be 35-36 victory marks.

A.S. Yakovlev (famous for his Yak fighters) writes following about Glinka brothers in his book "Tsel Zhizni":

На фюзеляжах боевых машин старшего лейтенанта Дмитрия Глинки и лейтенанта Бориса Глинки были нарисованы 31 звезда, обозначавшие количество сбитых братьями немецких самолетов.

http://readr.ru/aleksandr-yakovlev-cel-ghizni.html?page=148#ixzz1zsyns43b

31 stars were drawn on fuselages of Dmitrii and Boris Glinka combat planes, signifying the number of German planes shot down by brothers.

Text published in "Ogonek" magazine mentiones 33 joint victories...

(http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/glinkas2.jpg)


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on July 10, 2012, 11:26:21 AM
Hi,
I browsed through http://airaces.narod.ru There is a lot of retouched photos.
I picked up only a couple of examples. That retouch is visible, sometimes more, sometimes less, but visible.
When somebody was celebrating, the goal of retouch was to make him look better or to show what make him famous:

(http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/pokr_ai6.jpg)   (http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/reshet2.jpg)   (http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/pishkan.jpg)

(http://airaces.narod.ru/all16/shmelev2.jpg)

(http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/stepan12.jpg)


However there is also an example of retouch when someone is not really celebrated. I do not want to make politics here, just the retouch example:
(http://nd05.jxs.cz/938/501/93127d898f_81441291_o2.jpg)


The following photo does not look very much like retouch (although that main wheels...). More like poor quality of the photo or a way it was processing when published. Or a scan from the documentary film. It does not make sense to hide (cca 30) victory stars on the plane of somebody honored twice HSU (end of August 1943) and celebrated accordingly.
(http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/pokr_ai4.jpg)

Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: KL on July 11, 2012, 01:22:47 AM
The following photo does not look very much like retouch (although that main wheels...). More like poor quality of the photo or a way it was processing when published. Or a scan from the documentary film. It does not make sense to hide (cca 30) victory stars on the plane of somebody honored twice HSU (end of August 1943) and celebrated accordingly.
(http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/pokr_ai4.jpg)

I don't think that anybody intentionaly erased victory marks from that photo.  The fact is that the quality of the photo is so poor that it has limited value as a source.  Traces of retouch make things even worse.  30+ stars aligned in 4 neat rows simply are not visible on this photo.

In cases like this one, colours and markings are reconstructed/based on information from documents, memoirs and analogies.  More information you collect, reconstruction will be better.

Pilots did change planes, individual planes did change appearance over the time - it is better to know the whole story than to rely on a single photo.  Discovering that story makes modelling more interesting.

Happy modelling,
KL 


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on July 11, 2012, 10:42:57 AM
Hi KL,

I fully agree with your post. Moreover, I think that your words:
Quote
... The fact is that the quality of the photo is so poor that it has limited value as a source.  Traces of retouch make things even worse...
In cases like this one, colours and markings are reconstructed/based on information from documents, memoirs and analogies.  More information you collect, reconstruction will be better.

Pilots did change planes, individual planes did change appearance over the time - it is better to know the whole story than to rely on a single photo.  Discovering that story makes modelling more interesting.
could open the discussions about almost every profile, not only WWII and not only aircraft.

I finally abandon the idea that the first picture in this topic with 35-36 victory stars shows some Pokryshkin's P-39 :'(
Let me come back to his 3rd P-39, version N-0, board no. "100", serial no. 42-9004:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/Pokryshkin14d_P-39no100.jpg)
It was used during summer 1943 (June-August 1943?).

I checked numbers and dates of his victories at http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/pokrish1.htm (http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/pokrish1.htm)
   1.) If this photo shows aircraft shortly after delivery (end of May 1943), there COULD BE 22-25 victory stars.
   2.) If this photo shows aircraft from August 1943, then there COULD BE 30 victory stars.

Red color was poorly distinguishable on the olive green backgroung. Also this photo can prove it:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/GlinkaDmitriyBorisovich_Kuban1943_v02.jpg)
Russian text says: "On 24415 ... red star is poorly distinguishable on the dark green... (enhanced by retouch)."
Note the main wheel cover on this photo in comparison to previous P-39 "100" photo.

I do not know from what period is P-39 "100" on that photo. When looking at it I see that:
- left main wheel has "visible" central disk. Missing wheel cover? I do not thin so, it is only retouch performed not very correctly,
- there is visible demarcation line on the tail (I marked it by two black arrows). Red tail tips were introduced in 16 giap in summer 1943.
   So:
        - if that photo shows red tail tip, then P-39 could be from August 1943,
        - if victory marks are red stars without white outline, they could be there but poorly visible.

I watched again the film about Pokryshkin on Youtube. I make two screen shots from it:

1.) National insignia on the wing - red star over very regular and sharp backgound. Original blue, or carefully repainted to green?
     (http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/P-39_07-kridlosoznakom-zfilmuoPokryskinovi.jpg)

2.) Color on the spinner is slightly lighter than on the fuselage. Red spinner?    
     Color of propeller blades is relatively bright. Not black, but grey or natural metal finish?
     (http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/P-39_08-vrtulovykuzel-zfilmuoPokryskinovi.jpg)

3.) Three white strips on the wing. I saw it also on the some kit. Do anyone know purpose of them?
    (http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/P-39_10_tribielepruzkynakridle.jpg)

Regards,
   66misos



Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on July 11, 2012, 11:07:11 AM
Just for curiosity.
I think some kind of maintenance or repairing is performed on P-39 "100" on this photo:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/Pokryshkin14e_P-39no100.jpg)

Reasons:
- this Airacobra falls on tail. At least in comparison to Glinka's P-39 on the photo above,
- there is some kind of support structure bellow front fuselage (marked green),
- front wheel seems not to be under weight. I do not know right English terminology to explain it, so I added picture of the other P-39 and the main differences marked red  ;)

Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on July 13, 2012, 03:29:27 PM
I asked myself a question why Pokryshkin was photographed/filmed at Rechkalov's plane when awarded second time "Gold Star" HSU.
   1.) To keep Pokryshkin's P-39 in secret?
   2.) Just because?
   3.) Anything else?

To find possible reason within "3.) Anything else" I put some dates and events found at http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/pokrish1.htm (http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/pokrish1.htm) and http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_14131_start_40.html (http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_14131_start_40.html) to chronology:

1.    23.8.1943           30th enemy plane personally shot down,

2.    24.8.1943           Major Pokryshkin was awarded the second medal " Gold Star", become twice HSU (for 455 combat sorties and 30 enemy planes personally shot down until July 1943),   
   
3.   Summer 1943       While of Pokryshkin's P-39 "42-9004" under repairing/maintenance
                               (http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/Pokryshkin14d_P-39no100.jpg)

4.   After 24.8.1943    Pokryshkin is photographed standing in front of Rechkalov's P-39  N-0 serial no. 42-8747 by famous journalist G.N. Bey ( http://www.redbanner.co.uk/History/ace_aircraft/rechkalov/rechkalov.html (http://www.redbanner.co.uk/History/ace_aircraft/rechkalov/rechkalov.html) )
                              (http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/9GIAD.jpg)

5.   september 1943    Pokryshkin recieved new P-39 N-5, board no. "100", serial no. 42-19138 or 42-19188?

6.   1944                   Former Pokryshkin's "29004" was written off in 1944. However not in 16th GvIAP but in another unit where it was used for training.

What do you think?

Regards,
   66misos




Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: KL on July 13, 2012, 08:36:05 PM
Quote
I asked myself a question why Pokryshkin was photographed/filmed at Rechkalov's plane when awarded second time "Gold Star" HSU.

Pokrishkin was awarded for the second time as a HSU in Augiust 1943.  The third HSU award was in August 1944.
Pokrishkin was photographed in front of Rechkalov's P-39s (two of them!) in 1944 and in 1945, not in 1943.

Following photo was taken in September 1944.  Pokrishkin in P-39N (42-8747) cockpit.  55 stars marked Rechkalov's victories.
(http://s3.postimage.org/3ky7wc48z/09_44.jpg)

these two photos were probably taken on the same ocasion - pilots greeting Pokrishkin for his third HSU award
(http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/pokr_ai3.jpg)
(http://s3.postimage.org/nh70k9ner/image.jpg)

Following stills are from 1945 movie.  the movie was taken in Germany.  Pokrishkin is again in Rechkalovs P-39 and he is again greeted by his pilots.  The plane is P-39Q (44-2547).  In spite of what Pilawskii writes, this second plane had exactly the same markings as the earlier P-39N:  victory stars on its nose and RGA on its fuselage...
(http://www.redbanner.co.uk/History/ace_aircraft/rechkalov/RGA-fus.jpg)(http://www.redbanner.co.uk/History/ace_aircraft/rechkalov/Rechk-42547-tail.jpg)

In 1944 and 1945, Pokrishkin was a stab officer, he was a 9 guards fighter division commander.  Pokrishkin didn't fly as much as in 1943 and he did not score as much - maybe 3 victories in 1.5 years.  Check his victories at http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/pokrish1.htm
40 victories till mid-December 1943 and total score of 46 (or 43 only).

The key is in dates - no secrets, no misteries, no conspiracies...

HTH.
KL  


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on July 13, 2012, 10:23:27 PM
hi KL,
don't worry, no conspiracy.  :)
You are absolutely right about that Rechkalov's plane. By the end of august 1943 he had "only" 32 victories, not 55 as on that photo. Mea culpa.

Regards,
   66misos


PS: Have you any idea, please, about 3 white stripes on some P-39 wings?


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: KL on July 13, 2012, 10:50:56 PM
PS: Have you any idea, please, about 3 white stripes on some P-39 wings?

No idea...  Yak-9Ts (armed with 37mm cannons, same as P-39s) had one white line on each wing leading edge.  These lines somehow helped aiming the cannons...  probably for ground attacks.   


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: Ohotnyik on July 14, 2012, 06:26:24 AM
PS: Have you any idea, please, about 3 white stripes on some P-39 wings?

As I know these white stripes were shown on the planes which participated on the fights of Berlin.
I could find such a stripe only on the left wing of the P-39, but there were stripes of both wings of the Kosolapov La-7.


(http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h257/vadasz/kosolapovfoto.jpg)

(http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h257/vadasz/la-7-1003.jpg)



Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: learstang on July 14, 2012, 06:35:01 AM
These are an interesting decorative element.  I suppose by the Battle of Berlin, the Luftwaffe was a spent force and there wasn't much need for camouflage, rather there was a need for easily identifying different Red Air Force units.  I'd like to see a photograph of a P-39 with them.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on July 14, 2012, 08:40:13 AM
hi Ochotnyik,

stripes like on your photo and kit were usually (always?) painted on upperwings + underwings + tail and were relatively thick to be visible from distance. Kind of fast identification made by quite decorative way.

However, I mean thin stripes painted only on the upperwing, on leading edges. On P-39 3 on each wing, on some Yaks only 1 on each wing. 

Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: KL on July 14, 2012, 09:21:59 AM
However, I mean thin stripes painted only on the upperwing, on leading edges. On P-39 3 on each wing, on some Yaks only 1 on each wing. 

Those white lines were painted only on Yak-9T, they are related to 37mm cannon
(http://nsm05.casimages.com/img/2012/05/09//1205090834051476839830173.jpg)
(http://mdk.org.ua/3od.jpg)

see Yak-9 models by our French connection Xan http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1337.0 


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: KL on July 15, 2012, 05:31:27 PM
I'll try to list some of the reasons why Pokrishkin preferred not to have victory marks painted on his planes.  In his own words or in Soviet era biographies which only celebrated him:

1.  He did not fight for the score.  He saw victories as result of team work not as individual achievements.
2.  Pokrishkin was modest. He did not want his plane to differ from the planes of other (less successful) pilots.
3.  As a commander Pokrishkin did not want to distance himself from subordinates
4.  He did not want to attract enemy planes

Post-Soviet biographers/researchers focused on some other, more problematic details in Pokrishkin's colourful biography:

1.  His first victory was a Soviet Su-2
2.  Since part of the 55 iap documentation was lost/destroyed during 1941 withdrawal, Pokrishkin?s 1941 victory claims were never officially assessed nor confirmed.
3.  In post-war years Rechkalov claimed that Pokrishkin ?stole? his 3 victories from July 1941.

All together, more than enough reasons not to have prominent victory marks?.


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on July 17, 2012, 04:45:12 PM
Hi,
A couple of words about Pokryshkin?s P-39 ?100? S/N 29004 guns.
Firstly, I tried to summarize info about P-39 versions and their armament from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_P-39_Airacobra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_P-39_Airacobra) and  http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/detail.asp?aircraft_id=140 (http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/detail.asp?aircraft_id=140)

P-39D-BE
   - 1? 37 mm (1.46 in) M-4 cannon (30 rounds),
   - 2? 12.7 mm (0.50 in) synchronized machine guns (200 rpg),
   - 4? 7.62 mm (0.30 in) wing mounted machine guns (1000 rpg).

P-39D-1 (Specifically ordered for delivery under Lend-Lease; 336 produced)
   - 1? 20 mm (.79 in) Hispano M1 cannon,
   - 2? 12.7 mm (0.50 in) synchronized machine guns (200 rpg),
   - 4? 7.62 mm (0.30 in) wing mounted machine guns (1000 rpg);

      Nice picture of P-39 (with 20 mm cannon) firing in the night showing quite impressive firepower:
      (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6b/061019-F-1234P-022.jpg/743px-061019-F-1234P-022.jpg)

P-39D-2
   - 1? 37 mm (1.46 in) M-4 cannon (30 rounds),
   - 2? 12.7 mm (0.50 in) synchronized machine guns (200 rpg),
   - 4? 7.62 mm (0.30 in) wing mounted machine guns (1000 rpg).

P-39N
   - 1? 37 mm (1.46 in) M-4 cannon (30 rounds),
   - 2? 12.7 mm (0.50 in) synchronized machine guns (200 rpg),
   - 4? 7.62 mm (0.30 in) wing mounted machine guns (1000 rpg);

P-39Q-1
   - 1? 37 mm (1.46 in) M-4 cannon (30 rounds),
   - 2? 12.7 mm (0.50 in) synchronized machine guns,
   - 1? 12.7 mm (0.50 in) machine guns (300 rpg) in a pod under each wing.

      (http://www.uh.edu/engines/bellairacobrausaf.jpg)

      (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/25/51st_Fighter_Squadron_Bell_P-39Q-5-BE_Airacobra_42-20397.jpg/800px-51st_Fighter_Squadron_Bell_P-39Q-5-BE_Airacobra_42-20397.jpg)

There is often mentioned that Soviets removed the wing machine guns to improve roll rate by reducing rotational inertia.
I did not find a photo shoving P-39Q with gun pods under each wing in Soviet color. I think that ?removing wing guns? was mainly about gun pods.

I do not say that Soviets did not (sometime?, usually?) remove also wing mounted guns leaving only 1x cannon plus 2x synchronized guns in upper-front fuselage, but at least these two images showing wing mounted guns still in place:

Rechkalov?s P-39N-0 s/n 42-8747 from 1944/45 (note clearly visible USAAF background under the star):
      (http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/Rechkalov_P-39_3.jpg)

Pokryshkin?s P-39N-0 ?100? S/N: 42-9004 from the summer 1943:
      (http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/Pokryshkin14f_P-39no100.jpg)

Conclusion ? Pokryshkin?s P-39 ?100? S/N 29004 had wing guns installed, at least at the date of well known photography.
Regards,
     66misos


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on July 27, 2012, 05:29:19 PM
Hi,
circle seems to be closed. I've got mail from Igor Zlobin, that basically confirms KL's statement - the photo (scan from doc film) in my first post in this topic shows plane of Dimitry Glinka, not Pokryshkin. Here is a mix of several photos confirming that.

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/GlinkaDmitriyBorisovich_Kuban1943_v04.jpg)

And here are some Igor's statements:
"Что касаеться маркировки из кинохроники то самолет принадлежит Дмитрию Глинке из 100 ГвИАП, обратите внимание что полк в составе 9 ГвИАД и по идее должен нести обозначения на коке и хвосте (пилотка) но ее нет !!!",
translated to english:
"Concerning labeling/marking of the plane from a newsreel, it belongs to Dmitri Glinka from 100 GvIAP, note that the regiment belongs to 9th GvIAD and was supposed to have the symbol on the tail and spinner, but it had not!"

"Но если бы на самолете (Покрышкина, my note) были знаки побед то мы бы их обязательно увидели и на других фотографиях!!! А их к сожалению нет. До сих пор не на одной машине 16 ГвИАП не найдено ни одной звездочки побед за 1943 год...",
translated to english:
"If there were victory marks on the (Pokryshkin's) plane, we would necessarily see them also on the other photos!!! But unfortunately there are no such photos. Untill now we did not find any victory mark on the any 16 GvIAP plane in the year 1943."

Regards,
   66misos





Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on August 28, 2012, 03:26:00 PM
Pokryshkin?s early Airacobra(-s) version?

According to the http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_14131_start_40.html (http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_14131_start_40.html) and http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/romanenko/p-39/ (http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/romanenko/p-39/)
the first Airacobras arrived to 16 GIAP were 11x P-39D-2, 7x Р-39К-1 and 14x P-39L-1. Version flown by Pokryshkin differs from article to article.
  • P-39D-2 was equipped with a three-bladed Aeroproducts propeller and a 37mm (1.46 in) cannon,
  • Р-39К-1 was a P-39D-2 with the vents added to nose,
  • P-39L-1 was a P-39K with three-bladed Curtiss Electric propeller and revised nose gear,
e.g. all these versions were equipped with the 37mm cannon through propeller spinner, visually distinguishable only via nose vents and nose gear (and may be propeller blades):
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/Canon37mmwithoutcover_05.jpg)

Airacobras delivered latter (L, N, Q) had 37mm cannon usually protected by cover:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/Canon37mmwithcover_05.jpg)

Only production versions equipped with 20mm cannon through propeller spinner were:
  • P-39D-1 Specifically ordered for delivery under Lend-Lease,
  • P-400 ? on all pictures I saw the propeller blades are black with the yellow tips.
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/Canon20mm_06.jpg)


HOWEVER,
this is a shortened part of the article from Suchov?s (pilot in 16 GIAP since May 30, 1943) book Эскадрилья ведет бой about the moment when Pokryshkin exchanged his old ?13? with the new ?100?:
In mid-July ... We stopped by a fighter with the tail number "13". It is well known commander?s plane. Actually his former plane.  "Thirteenth" already did its job?fought many fights, many forsages during hot days. It's time to change the engine...
Nearby is the aircraft... almost new one. To beat "Junkers" and "Heinkels" ? it needs more powerful weapons. And here it is: a 37-millimeter cannon ...
Pokryshkin is weighing the possibility of one and the other plane. He knows "thirteenth", he likes her. Or to take a new one?
Pokryshkin strode towards a new plane.
- Comrade Captain, what number to paint?
- The ?One? has to be for the regiment commander.
- He did not fly, he is "sick" all the time - Sasha Klubov says.
- All the same, is not allowed! - says Pokryshkin.
- Then the ?ten"!
- It is better to "thirty", the number of kills - says Regiment Engineer Captain Kopylov.
Lieutenant Nikolai Trofimov says with a smile:
- We must look forward - to count to one hundred ...
 - Write "hundred"! ? Alexander succumbed to the general mood, too, laughed, waved his hand:
- Okay, if ?one hundred? then ?one hundred?. Paint it!
From that day a new call sign was approved for Pokryshkin: Hundredth ...


Of course, those memories are not always very reliable source. Also dialogues looks quite artificial. However, at least Pokryshkin?s motivation to exchange planes could be true.

This photo shows Pokryshkin in front of some P-39. Looking at the propeller spinner, it looks more like the one with big hole for 20mm cannon than the one with the tight hole for 37mm cannon (without cover):
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/Pokryshkin30.jpg)

But no serial or board number is visible and it seems that Pokryshkin preferred being photographed/filmed not in front of his plane but someone else one (?RGA?, ?50? ...). 

So, did Pokryshkin flew Airacobra with 20mm cannon in propeller spinner or not?

Regards,
     66misos



Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: KL on August 28, 2012, 09:45:10 PM
Another photo from the series (supposedly spring 1943! Cannon/gun not visible...  :( Note yellow propeller tip!  :))

(http://www.stoletie.ru/upload/iblock/2da/4_preview.jpg?rand=306505402)

from http://www.stoletie.ru/fotoreportazh/nepobezhdennyj_pokryshkin_2010-11-12.htm

HTH,
KL


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: learstang on August 29, 2012, 01:31:29 AM
A yellow propeller tip - was that usual on the Soviet Kobras?

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: KL on August 29, 2012, 04:35:44 AM
according to V. Romanenko and his "Aerokobri vstupyut v boi" book, Pokrishkin was photographed in front of his P-39D-2 (41-38520).  Photo was taken on 28.05.1943 at Popovicheskaya airfield.

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/Pokryshkin30.jpg)


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on August 30, 2012, 10:40:43 AM
Hi KL

thank you for interesting picture.

Quote
Posted by: learstang 
A yellow propeller tip - was that usual on the Soviet Kobras?
Regards,
Jason

Hi Jason,
this is a standard look of the Aeroproducts propeller - silver-grey blades without yellow tips:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/P-39_22.jpg)   (http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/P-39_13.jpg)

However, there were P-400 exported within L-L from USA to GB. P-400 is basically only renamed P-39D-1 dedicated for export. But RAF was not satisfied with them so a lot of P-400 were re-exported further from GB to SU. Those P-400 had black propeller blades with yellow tips. Plus, there was a number of P-400 transferred from USAAF to SU:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/Canon20mm_05.jpg)

But yellow tips were not limited only to P-400. Here is another photo showing Pokryshkin standing in front of Airacobra with (black) blades with yellow tips:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/Pokryshkin21_1001943--.jpg)

Also this profile by Igor Zlobin shows black propeller blades with yellow tips:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/Pokryshkin04_P-39no100.jpg)
Regarding this profile, this is his statement from www.scalemodels.ru (http://www.scalemodels.ru):
?According to the info from historian Oleg Levchenko and after one month in the archive in the city of Podolsk (CAMO) ? I deleted red tail tips on the planes from period spring-summer of 1943.?
However, propeller blades yellow tips kept.

Finally, this I found in the Pokryshkin?s book Небо войны (Sky of War) about replacement his old ?13? with new ?100?:
I flew almost all time on the plane with board number 13 and shot down more than 20 enemy planes. But when new Airacobras with the stronger armament arrived, I decided to take one of them.  Stepanov received my ?13?. He did not want to fly with ?13? so they pained 0 behind 13. He was shot down during the first fight. Now I have also three-digit number on my plane and I have got order not to call with my name because German fighters already hunt me. I try to call with my new number but it was very difficult to pronounce. Boys laugh.
- Paint me hundred! I told them.
- Here hundred, here hundred. Short and clear, isn?t it?
Since that I flew plane with board number ?100?.

Details are different from those in the Suchov?s book but motivation ? to replace the old one with the new one with the stronger armament ? is the same.
It shows again that Pokryshkin flew Airacobra with 20mm cannon (e.g. P-39D-1 or P-400) at the beginning.

Regards,
     66misos



Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: learstang on August 30, 2012, 05:44:28 PM
Thank you very much for the information, 66misos!  I'm finishing up a couple of 1/72nd scale P-39's, one for Rechkalov and the other one I haven't decided on, perhaps Sultan Ahmet-Khan.  It's always good to get more information on the Kobras.

Best Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: KL on August 30, 2012, 09:06:48 PM
It looks that yellow tip indicates Curtiss Electric propellers

Quote
?P-39D-2 was equipped with a three-bladed Aeroproducts propeller and a 37mm (1.46 in) cannon

according to http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fww2/p39.html P-39D-2 had Curtiss propeller with yellow tip... Mass produced P-39 models, P-39N and P-39Q were equipped with Aeroproducts propellers, this may explain why yellow tips were relativelly rare on VVS P-39s.

P-39D-2 was externaly identical to British Aircobras, so it would have the same spinner with wide opening.  It was armed with 37mm cannon - Pokrishkin probably newer faught on 20mm armed P-39  - memoirs are probably misleading in this case  ???

HTH,
KL


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on August 31, 2012, 05:45:27 PM
Hi,

here are some photos to show variability in P-39 propellers:

1. Aeroproducts logo and propellers:
    (http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/Aeroproducts.jpg)
    Note the new type of the P-39 front gear.

2. Curtiss Electrics logo and propellers:
    (http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/CurtissElectrics.jpg)
    Note the old type of the P-39 front gear.

As you can see both Aeroproducts and Curtiss Electrics propeller blades can be black or grey and with or without yellow tips. The best way is to follow the image of the actual plane.

Quote
Posted on: August 30, 2012, 09:06:48 PM
P-39D-2 was externaly identical to British Aircobras, so it would have the same spinner with wide opening.

Not P-39D-2 but P-39D-1 was externaly identical to British Aircobras (e.g. P-400), so P-400 would have the same spinner with wide opening as P-39D-1.

According to the http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_14131_start_40.html (http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_14131_start_40.html) and http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/romanenko/p-39/ (http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/romanenko/p-39/) and http://www.airvectors.net/avp39.html (http://www.airvectors.net/avp39.html)

P-39D - three-bladed Curtiss Electric variable-pitch propeller, M4 37 millimeter cannon,
P-39D-1 - the primary difference being replacement of the M4 37 millimeter nose cannon with a 20 millimeter Hispano Mk.404 cannon,
P-39D-2 - restored the M4 37 millimeter nose cannon.

From http://www.airvectors.net/avp39.html (http://www.airvectors.net/avp39.html):
"Roughly in parallel with P-39D production, Bell manufactured a total of 675 "P-400" Airacobras for export. The P-400 was very similar to the P-39D-1, with the 20 millimeter Hispano cannon, but instead of 7.62 millimeter Brownings in the wings it featured 7.7 millimeter (0.303 caliber) Brownings for compatibility with British ammunition."

P-400 in RAF:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/P-400_02.jpg)

P-400 Lt Farout 39th FS 35th FG:
(http://i848.photobucket.com/albums/ab48/jacook/P-400LtFaurot39thFS.jpg)

Regards,
     66misos



Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: KL on August 31, 2012, 08:29:36 PM
here are some photos to show variability in P-39 propellers:

1. Aeroproducts logo and propellers:
    (http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/Aeroproducts.jpg)
    Note the new type of the P-39 front gear.

2. Curtiss Electrics logo and propellers:
    (http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/CurtissElectrics.jpg)
    Note the old type of the P-39 front gear.

As you can see both Aeroproducts and Curtiss Electrics propeller blades can be black or grey and with or without yellow tips.
Some of the planes you refer to are restored planes and museum exhibits - Restored planes are notoriously unreliable if you are looking for authentic colours!!!
Photos are better, but if you are looking for ?factory? colours only documents will provide reliable info.

P-39D - three-bladed Curtiss Electric variable-pitch propeller, M4 37 millimeter cannon,
P-39D-1 - the primary difference being replacement of the M4 37 millimeter nose cannon with a 20 millimeter Hispano Mk.404 cannon,
P-39D-2 - restored the M4 37 millimeter nose cannon.

You should also put things in historical perspective:
First  P-39s (armed with 20mm cannons) arrived on North Atlantic convoys.  Those became operational in 1942 and fought in northern part of the front (Murmansk, North Sea).
P-39D-2 (armed with 37mm cannons) arrived later, through Iran.  Those become operational in spring 1943 and were utilized on the southern part of the front (Kuban, Black Sea)

Pokrishkin simply could not fight on those earliest P-39s (Airacobra Mk-1, P-400)

HTH,
KL 


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on August 31, 2012, 11:21:20 PM
Hi KL,

I fully agree with you regarding memoirs. I more and more think those books are written by a group of unnamed people based on the basic facts/info/events given by "main" author and with some propaganda goal.
In this perspective I also think that Pokryshkin flew only Airacobras with 37mm cannon and none (at least regularly) with 20mm cannon.

Regarding color of the propeller blades - I have no intention to give a definite answer or FS color number. I only say that nothing is cut to the stone and that there are options for VVS P-39s.

Although one can see some pattern - if propeller blades are "dark" (e.g. originally black) then stencils are bright (e.g. yellow). And if propeller blades are "bright" (e.g. kind of silver-grey) then stencils are dark (black?).
And sometime with and sometime without yellow tips. And sometime no (AP or CE) logo is visible.  :-[
Photo of the actual plane is the best reference.

Regards,
     66misos




Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on September 04, 2012, 05:12:16 PM
Hi,

although the memoirs are not very reliable, I would add another shortened part of the article from the Suchov?s (pilot in 16 GIAP since May 30, 1943) book Эскадрилья ведет бой about the moment when Pokryshkin's "100" was damaged:
"At noon on August 1st our squadron landed at the field not far from the village with the beautiful name of Lubimoe...
Area of operations ... the river Mius is shallow now, it is hard to see her. And front passes just along the river.
Sultry day is fading. Weather is calm, windless?
Suddenly, our five Il-2 flew at low level, and the sixth one smoking behind them. The plane is literally above us and descending. We clearly see the hole in the left hull and wing. How only did it stay in the air?
Stormovik suddenly hit the ground, makes a few jumps. And then sparking machine guns shots from the Stormovik flew in the direction of our KP, scattered over the dugout (zemlanka) and over the plane standing beside it with the tail number "100".
I hear chirping of jerky gun shots. What is he doing? People standing on the roof of the dugout and on the slope near the plane, rushed in all directions - some fled, some fell on the ground. Stormovik turned to the left, its right wing almost touches the ?100?. Pokryshkin, who was on the wing, was also on the ground in a moment?
Some dark things split off from Stormovik and flew down. Bombs..."


BTW, I did not find any mention about this event in the Pokryshkin's memoirs Небо войны (Sky of War). >:(

However, Igor Zlobin wrote me in the mail:
"? 03.08.1943 P-39N-BE  № 29004 списан при аварии молодым летчиком, врезался в Ил-2 и самолет отправлен в ремонт и в последующем передан в другую часть. Факт аварии молодым летчиком говорит о том, что Покрышкин в августе летал уже на другом самолете. А начало эксплуатации возможно после 10.05!"
Translated:
"P-39N-BE no. 29004 was written off on 3-Aug-1943 after accident when young pilot crashed into it with IL-2 and the aircraft was sent for repair and subsequently transferred to another unit. The fact of the young pilot accident says that Pokryshkin flew already another plane in August. And the beginning of operation is possible after 10-May." ;)

Regards,
     66misos


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: KL on September 04, 2012, 08:25:44 PM
Hi 66misos,  :)

interesting information re Pokrishkin's P-39N № 29004.

Back to Pokrishkin's first P-39D and it's cannon.  There is a confusion on internet sources; according to some all P-39Ds were armed with 20mm cannons.

Few numbers from Wikipedia that may explain the mistery:

-  P-39D-BE - Armament 1 ? 37 mm/1.46 mm cannon (30 rounds), 2 ? .50 in/12.7 mm (200 rpg) and 4 ? wing mounted .30 in/7.62 mm (1,000 rpg) machine guns; 60 Produced, none (0) delivered to Soviet Union.
-  P-39D-1 - production variant fitted with a 20 mm (.79 in) M1 cannon.  336 produced, three (3) delivered to Soviet Union
-  P-39D-2 - production variant with 37 mm (1.46 in) cannon,  158 produced, 105 delivered to Soviet Union
-  P-39D-3 26 conversions from P-39D-1 to Photo Reconnaissance Configuration
-  P-39D-4 11 conversions from P-39D-2 to Photo Reconnaissance Configuration

It's true - most USAF P-39Ds had 20mm cannon.  But, almost all (105 out of 108) VVS P-39Ds had 37mm cannon...
P-39D-2 is interesting; if you subtract Soviet and PR conversions from total production - only 42 remained in US

HTH,
KL    


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on September 05, 2012, 11:41:18 AM
Hi KL,

as I already wrote P-39D-1 and P-400 were only versions with 20mm cannon in the spinner. All other P-39s had 37mm cannon in the spinner. At least as a standard (e.g.no field modification).

   http://www.airvectors.net/avp39.html (http://www.airvectors.net/avp39.html):
"Bell manufactured a total of 675 "P-400" Airacobras for export. The French had bought a batch of P-400s in April 1940; the order was taken over by the British after the fall of France... The P-400 was very similar to the P-39D-1, with the 20 millimeter Hispano cannon...
..."Airacobra I", as it (e.g. P-400) was designated in Royal Air Force (RAF) service...
Only a portion of the P-400 order was delivered to the UK, serving for a short time with RAF Number 601 Squadron, "City Of London". The remainder of the batch was shipped to the USSR or was taken in to US Army Air Forces (USAAF) service..."

   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_P-39_Airacobra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_P-39_Airacobra):
"...Britain ordered 386 P-39Ds (Model 14), with a 20 mm (.79 in), instead of a 37 mm (1.46 in) cannon ...Britain transferred about 200 P-39s to the Soviet Union...
Another 200 examples intended for the RAF were taken up by the USAAF after the attack on Pearl Harbor as the P-400...
The Airacobras already in the UK, along with the remainder of the first batch being built in the US, were sent to the Soviet Air force..."

http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/romanenko/p-39/ (http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/romanenko/p-39/):
(http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/romanenko/p-39/2-02.jpg)
Airacobra I aircraft of 19 GIAP (photo from Artem Drabkin collection)

(http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/romanenko/p-39/Bochkov.jpg)
Capt. I. V. Bochkov of the 19th GIAP in front of his P-400 Aircobra I number "16" in East Carelia in 1942.


Still some notes about Pokryshkin's P-39 with or without 20mm cannon in the spinner:

There is a (silver) cap on the spinner top around the 37mm cannon:
(http://www.warbirdregistry.org/p39-p63registry/images/p39gun.jpg)  (http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/Canon37mmwithoutcover_04.jpg)
 
That cap was replaced by cannon cover on the latter versions:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/Canon37mmwithcover_02.jpg)   (http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/Pokryshkin21_1001943--.jpg)

or that cap was simply missing:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/Canon37mmwithoutcover_02.jpg)   (http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/P-39_50_P-39Cprewar.jpg)

That could explain the big hole on the top of the Pokryshkin's P-39 spinner:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/Pokryshkin30.jpg)
however, unless we clearly see "long barrel" or "short barrel" we cannot deffinitely decide whether it is 20mm or 37mm cannon. We can only say that according to the memoirs (e.g. less probable) it could be 20mm cannon or according to the official papers/documents it should be 37mm cannon (more probable).

Regards,
     66misos






Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: KL on September 05, 2012, 06:54:42 PM
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/Pokryshkin30.jpg)

There are absolutely no doubts what type that P-39 behind Pokrishkin was and what cannon it had.  It was P-39D-2 with 37mm cannon.

Quote
"...Britain ordered 386 P-39Ds (Model 14), with a 20 mm (.79 in), instead of a 37 mm (1.46 in) cannon ...Britain transferred about 200 P-39s to the Soviet Union...

Britain transferred 265 Aircobra I to Soviet Union.  54 planes were lost aboard sunken Arctic convoy ships.  Those 211 Aircobra Is and three P-39D-1 were the only VVS Airacobras armed with 20mm cannons.  None of them were used by VVS regiments involved in 1943 Kuban battle.

All Soviet P-39D-2s were supplied by USA.  Some of them even retained ?US ARMY? logo on wing undersides.
P-39D-2s were armed with American 37mm cannons.  VVS regiments equipped with P-39D-2 fought during Kuban battles.  Pokrishkin flew on one of those P-39D-2.

HTH,
KL


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on September 06, 2012, 12:03:19 PM
Hi KL,

Quote
as I already wrote P-39D-1 and P-400 were only versions with 20mm cannon in the spinner. All other P-39s had 37mm cannon in the spinner. At least as a standard  (e.g.no field modification).

From http://airaces.narod.ru/all2/babak.htm (http://airaces.narod.ru/all2/babak.htm) and/or http://www.bellabs.ru/Fotab/I-45-100/P-39_Aerocobra_01.html (http://www.bellabs.ru/Fotab/I-45-100/P-39_Aerocobra_01.html):

(http://airaces.narod.ru/all2/babak5.jpg)

(http://airaces.narod.ru/all2/babak6.jpg)

Shortened translation of the text accompanying these photos:
"According to A. Moiseyev (aerial photos decryptor 366 ORAP / 164th OGRAP during WWII) these photos of "Airacobra" - tactical number 40, serial № (4) 1-38416 were probably made in the days of the Air battle of the Kuban..."

Seems that there was at least one Airacobra P-39D-2 that had:
- spinner with big opening/hole for gun,
- long barrel gun in the spinner (e.g. 20mm cannon?),
- propeller blades black with yellow tips,
- propeller spinner not Olive Drab but red,
- red star painted also on the right top wing.

From http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/romanenko/p-39/ (http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/romanenko/p-39/):
"   45th (100th Guards) IAP
...P-39D-2 aircraft (serial numbers 41-38416, 427, 429, 431, 433, 446, 451, 456, 458, and 462)... The regiment fell into the "oven" of combat over the Kuban...
   16th Guards IAP
...11 P-39D-2 (serial numbers 41-38424, 425, 428, 430, 434, 437, 438, 528, 547, 550, and 555)... The regiment began combat operations on 9 April, at the very beginning of the battle for the Kuban..."


When putting those serials into the line: 41-384xx where xx: 16, 24, 25, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 33, 34, 37, 38, 51, 56, 58 and 62, they looks like planes from one or two production series and some similarities are quite possible.
Seems everything is possible. ;)

Regards,
     66misos



Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: KL on September 06, 2012, 07:30:44 PM
When putting those serials into the line: 41-384xx where xx: 16, 24, 25, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 33, 34, 37, 38, 51, 56, 58 and 62, they looks like planes from one or two production series and some similarities are quite possible.
Seems everything is possible. ;)

If everything was possible, if planes were shuffled without any logic and if field modifications were random, our effort to identify those planes would be hopeless and pointless.  In reality, things were different:  it is logical to keep planes with same armament (i.e. ammunition) within one unit or one battlefield.  Field modifications had had to be approved by a command, usually it went the other way around - there was an order from higher command requesting a modification.

Quote
- spinner with big opening/hole for gun,
- long barrel gun in the spinner (e.g. 20mm cannon?),
- propeller blades black with yellow tips,
- propeller spinner not Olive Drab but red,
- red star painted also on the right top wing

All these are characteristics of the standard P-39D-2
- short spinner with big opening/hole for gun,
- long barrel 37mm gun in the spinner 
- Curtiss Electric propeller with black blades and yellow blade tips,
- propeller spinner possibly "Sky type S" colour,
- red star painted on the right top wing

Following is Fadeyev's P-39D-2 photo and its profiles by Russian artists Bikov and Zolotov

(http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/romanenko/p-39/Fadeev.jpg)
(http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/romanenko/p-39/p39d2_4138428.jpg)
(http://basilzolotov.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/p-39d-37-x.png)
(http://basilzolotov.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/p-39d-37-f.png)

So- it wasn't a 20mm cannon and it wasn't a field modification.  Rather a standard 37mm cannon.

HTH,
KL


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: KL on September 07, 2012, 01:45:44 AM
It looks I was wrong...  :-X
According to techn description in "Aerokobri vstupayut v boy", P-39D-2 was armed with 20mm cannon - it was American M-1, a Hispano 20mm cannon licence.

So Pokrishkin and others were right in their memoirs. Pokrishkin's first combat Aircobra had a smaller callibre cannon.

HTH,
KL


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on September 07, 2012, 12:22:55 PM
Hi KL,

interesting info regarding 20mm cannons. Only P-39D-x version is still confising.

To better distinguish those cannons I attach pictures of them both.

37mm T9 cannon
The Airacobra was designed around the 37mm T9 cannon (Weight 213 lb (97 kg), Length 89.5 in (2.27 m)). It would be impossible firing through the propeller shaft as could be done with smaller 20mm cannon. Weight, balance and visibility problems meant that the cockpit could not be placed farther back in the fuselage. The propeller was driven via a 10-foot-long (3.0 m) drive shaft running through a tunnel in the cockpit floor and was connected to a gearbox in the nose of the fuselage which, in turn, drove propeller via a short central shaft.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/ctarchives/4522703921/in/photostream/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ctarchives/4522703921/in/photostream/)
(http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4012/4522703921_5acdca2db0_z.jpg)
T9 with 15 round magazine with flexible belt" "37 m/m redesigned as M4E2 w/ combination right & left hand feed mechanism & 15 round magazine

(http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4010/4522703971_8a3f652606_z.jpg)
Original M6 magazine 37 m/m M4 (endless belt type) Capacity 30 rounds symmetrically mounted (used on plane P-39)


20 mm (.79 in) Hispano-Suiza HS.404 cannon
Bell Model 14A (P-39D-1 and P-400), production variant fitted with a 20 mm (.79 in) M1 cannon. Specifically ordered for delivery under Lend-Lease.
? Length without muzzle brake: 2.32 m (7 ft 7 in)
? Length with muzzle brake: 2.52 m (8 ft 3 in)
? Weight without drum magazine: 43 kg (94 lb 13 oz)
? Weight (complete): 68.7 kg (151 lb 7 oz)

http://pwencycl.kgbudge.com/H/i/Hispano_20mm_gun.htm (http://pwencycl.kgbudge.com/H/i/Hispano_20mm_gun.htm)
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/Cannon20mm_Hispano_Suiza_HS404_04.jpg)
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/Cannon20mm_Hispano_Suiza_HS404_01.jpg)

The British Mark 5 and American M3 were shorter and lighter than the original design:
(http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/7798/hs404real1.jpg)

As one can see that:
? 20mm cannon had quite complicated barrel while 37mm cannom had very simple barrel,
? 20mm cannon was longer (with or without muzzle brake) than 37mm cannon,
? weight of 20mm cannon was approxinately half of 37mm cannon weight, plus ammunition,
? 20mm cannon mounted more to front then 37mm cannon (to balance lower weight/center of gravity of P-39, etc.).

So it could be said in general that if "short simple barrel" is going through spinner it should be 37mm cannon and if "something long with complicated barrel" is going through spinner it should be 20mm cannon, as I wrote on August 28, 2012:
Quote
Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
? Reply #35 on: August 28, 2012, 03:26:00 PM ? Quote Modify Remove  

...37mm cannon through propeller spinner:
            (http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/Canon37mmwithoutcover_05.jpg)

...37mm cannon usually protected by cover:
            (http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/Canon37mmwithcover_05.jpg)

...20mm cannon through propeller spinner:
            (http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/Canon20mm_06.jpg)

According to my opinion photo of "40" S/N: 138416 and profile of "37" S/N: 138428 from your last mail show P-39D-x with 20mm cannon.

And with info from your last mail it seems (very) probable that also S/N: 138520 could have 20mm cannon.

It is quite interesting because
? serials 138xxx, e.g. 41-38xxx (P-39D-x) - Fadeev's "37" S/N: 138428, "40" S/N: 138416, "27" S/N: 138555, S/N: 138520 (it had been set aside for the regiment commander who did not fly on combat missions. After 24 April 1943 it was given to pilot P. P. Ketov and safely fought to the end of 1943, setting some kind of record for longevity. A. I. Pokryshkin made a single combat flight in this aircraft in April) - were produced in 1941,
    - are older versions (D1, D2),
    - armed with 20mm cannon (at least some).
? while serials 24xxx, e.g. 42-4xxx -  (Pokryshkin's "13" S/N: 24421 P-39K-1(?), Pokryshkin's "100" S/N: 29004, B.B. Glinka's "1" S/N: 25515 P-39K-1, D.B. Glinka's "21" S/N: 24403 P-39K (type visible on photo), "8" S/N: 24570 - were produced in 1942,
     - they are newer types (ver. K, L, N?),
     - on photos they have "old type" red star with black outline, without (overpained) original blue/white circles under the stars,
     - armed with 37cannon.

According to that Pokryshkin either:
1.) should/could fly P-39D-x, board no. "13"?, S/N: 138xxx, armed with 20mm cannon and memoirs are true regarding his personal switch from weaker to stronger P-39, or
2.) he flew "13" S/N: 24421 P-39K-1 armed with 37mm cannon from beginning and memoirs are true only partially, e.g. not about him personaly but generally weaker planes needed to be replaced by strongers ones. And all that packed within artistic licence into dramatic, but not real event, e.g. that repalcement was not about "13" S/N: 24421 P-39K-1.
Pokryshkin himself in his memoirs Sky of war: "I flew almost all time on the plane with board number 13..."

Regards,
     66misos


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: KL on September 07, 2012, 07:05:21 PM
Hi 66misos,
yes, you were right regarding the long muzzle cannons on P-39D-2.  It is 20mm M-1.

I tend to rely on information in Romanenko's buks and the picture is very clear:  16 giap initially had a mix of different P-39 types, some armed with 20mm cannons (P-39D-2), some with 37mm cannons (P-39K).  Pokrishkin's first Airacobra (No 13) was P-39K with 37mm cannon

(http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/pokrish8.jpg)

Pokrishkin ocasionally flew other planes, including P-39D-2s.  So the memoirs are not wrong, in this case, kind of misleading...

cheers,
KL 


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on September 12, 2012, 03:20:49 PM
Hi,

I appologize for a bit longer post. ;)
I tried to summarize all photos of Pokryshkin with P-39s somehow related to him I found on the internet and frame them by some events from Pokryshkin?s WWII period to better understand historical background when particular aircraft and camo/marking was used. Info and photos are taken from this discussion and from different sources on Internet, all mentioned in previous posts.
All those photos show interesting pattern, if not rule. Pokryshkin is near by the either unidentificable (e.g. his?) aircraft or near by identificable but someone?s else aircraft (Rechkalov, Sukhov etc.).

April 1943    The first Airacobras arrived to 16 GIAP were 11x P-39D-2, 7x Р-39К-1 and 14x P-39L-1. Together with latter deliveries there were:

Serials 41-384xx (P-39D-x)  where xx: 16, 24, 25, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 33, 34, 37, 38, 51, 56, 58 and 62 look like planes from one or two production series and were produced in 1941:
    - are older versions (D1, D2),
    - armed with 20mm cannon (at least some).

Serials 24xxx, e.g. 42-4xxx were produced in 1942,
     - they are newer types (ver. K, L),
     - armed with 37cannon.
Pokryshkin flew mostly P-39K-1(?) "13" S/N: 24421 (42-4421).

Pokryshkin made a single combat flight in elder type S/N: 138520 (41-38520), board no? in April.

Pokryshkin flew also ?130? on 10-Apr-1943 and 17-Apr-1943 according to the ЖБД (журнал боевых действий ? combat book) of the 16 GIAP:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/Pokryshkin23_130.jpg)

Photos from era before his first HSU Gold Star - no board and serial number visible, not possible to identify that plane:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/Pokryshkin30.jpg)   (http://www.stoletie.ru/upload/iblock/2da/4_preview.jpg?rand=306505402)        

23-Apr-1943    P-39N-BE S/N: 29004 (42-9004) arrived to 16 GIAP from 25 ZAP.

10-May-1943    P-39K-2-BE S/N: 24421 ?13? or ?130? sent for general maintenance.

24-May-1943   Captain Pokryshkin awarded the Hero of the Soviet Union for the first time.

28-May- 1943,    Pokryshkin flew 41-38520 "17" or ?100?? for a single mission.
                          This plane had been set aside for the regiment commander who did not fly on combat missions.
                          After 24-Apr-1943 it was given to pilot P. P. Ketov and safely fought to the end of 1943.    

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/P-39_15_4243.jpg)
Text accompanying the photo: ?Cамолет Покрышкина из киноновостей то ли 42го то ли 43го. Видимо из соображений секретности сняли так что номеров не видно.? ?(Pokryshkin?s aircraft from kino news from year 42/43. To keep in secret photo is made from such angle that no numbers are visible.?
No board and serial number visible, not possible to identify that plane.

June/Jul? 1943   Pokryshkin promoted to major, having become commanding officer of his squadron.

23-Jun-1943    Pokryshkin exchanged his old P-39K-1  S/N: 24421 (42-4421) "13? for P-39N S/N: 29004 (42-9004), "100".

31-Jun-1943    Division received the order to transfer the Regiment to the Donbass.

3-Aug-1943   P-39N-BE  S/N: 29004 (42-9004) damaged in accident with friendly IL-2,
                          sent for repair & maintenance and latter sent to different unit.

Serial number 29004 (42-9004), board number ?100?:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/Pokryshkin14h_P-39no100-1.jpg)
My observation/opinion:
- Plane is undergoing some repair/maintenance - front fuselage is lift up and supported by construction,
- cover on the left main landing gear is missing,
- manufacturer logo and bright stencils visible on the propeller blades, e.g. bladed should have yellow tips,
- tail tip seems to have different color ( demarcation line is visible) ? red without white line?
Igor Zlobin: ?According to the info from historian Oleg Levchenko and after one month in the archive in the city of Podolsk (CAMO) ? I deleted red tail tips on the planes from period spring-summer of 1943.?  But he kept yellow tips on the propeller blades.
Pokryshkin is not visible somewhere near by this plane.
So, is this still Pokryshkin?s aircraft on this photo or is it already someone?s else when it was repaired after crasch with Il-2 on 3-Aug-1943 and transfered to the other unit?

24-Aug-1943   Major Pokryshkin was awarded the second HSU "Gold Star" medal.

Pokryshkin not at his but Rechkalov?s plane:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/Rechkalov_P-39.jpg)

September 1943    Pokryshkin flew P-39 (type?) "100" S/N: 219158 ( 42-19158)
 
Screenshot from the doc film about Pokryshkin found on Youtube - S/N: 220136, (42-20136) ?
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/P-39_30.jpg)
- No Board Number painted on the fuselage,
- Produced latter than 42-9004 (9004 vs. 20136) and 42-19158 (19158 vs. 20136)
- Although used in the film about Pokryshkin, seems not to be his aircraft.

fall 1943               16 GIAP is based on the Krimean front with the main duty to defend ground troops and ships in the area of Gulf of Sivach.

November  1943   Bad weather conditions limited the air activity, but Pokryshkin started individual flights at low altitude over the Black Sea.

Pokryshkin in front of his Airacobra?
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/Pokryshkin21_1001943--.jpg)
Text in the photo: ?Alexander Pokryshkin (right). 40th years of last century.?
No board and serial number visible, not possible to identify that plane. Winter 1943/spring 1944?
 
Pokryshkin and D.B. Glinka in front of Airacobra:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/Pokryshkin17b_P-39.jpg)
No board and serial number visible, not possible to identify that plane. Winter 1943/spring 1944?
 
K.G. Vishnevetskiy, A.I. Pokryshkin, N.E. Lavitskiy, D.B. Glinka, B.B. Glinka, I.M. Dzusov, I.I. Babak, G.A. Rechkalov:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/P-39_52.jpg)
No board and serial number visible, not possible to identify that plane. Winter 1943/spring 1944?

end of 1943   Pokryshkin was appointed as commander of 16 GIAP with the rank of Lieutnant Colonel.
                          The 16 GIAP was retired from the front to complete its ranks with new pilots and planes.

7-Nov- 1943    Pokryshkin was in Moscow, proposed to become the commander of the flight school. He refused.

Since Feb-1944   Pokryshkin did not fly nearly as much, he was not allowed to fly because of fear of him getting killed.
                         Pokryshkin spent a lot of time in the radio bunker, directing his regiment's fights over the radio.

May/Jun? 1944    
Pokryshkin returned to the front, he was promoted to colonel and given command of 9th GIAD - Guards Fighter Air Division division
, composed by 16, 100 and 104 GIAP:
Screenshot from the doc film about Pokryshkin found on Youtube:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/P-39_08b-vrtulovykuzel-zfilmuoPokryskinovi.jpg)   (http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/th_P-39_10_tribielepruzkynakridle.jpg)   (http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/th_P-39_08-vrtulovykuzel-zfilmuoPokryskinovi.jpg)
Most of the time he was sitting in a tank with a powerful radio, issuing commands. Pokryshkin was forbidden to perform combat missions, but he sometimes completed successful combat missions with his old unit.
Boris Glinka succeded him as commander of 16 GIAP.

16 July 1944   Pokryshkin shot down two Stukas and one Hs.129.

30 May 1944    Near Yassy, Rumania. Three Ju.87s were shot down by Pokryshkin.

19-Aug-1944   Pokryshkin awarded the Hero of the Soviet Union for the third time.

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/Pokryshkin26.jpg)
No board and serial number visible, not possible to identify that plane.

September 1944.  Pokryshkin in the cockpit of Rechkalov's P-39N S/N: 28747 (42-8747):
(http://s3.postimage.org/3ky7wc48z/09_44.jpg)

14-Jan-1945   Pokryshkin?s last victory was another Ju.87

1945               Stills from 1945 movie taken in Germany.  
                         Pokryshkin is again in Rechkalov?s P-39 and he is again greeted by his pilots. The plane is P-39Q S/N: 42547 (44-2547):
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/th_001.jpg)  (http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/th_002.jpg)  (http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/th_003.jpg)  (http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/004.jpg)
In spite of what Pilawskii writes, this second plane had exactly the same markings as the earlier P-39N:  victory stars on its nose and RGA on its fuselage...      
 
Screenshot from the doc film about Pokryshkin found on Youtube:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/005.jpg)
- P-39 ?15? S/N: 4278xxx (44-278xxx) ?
- Produced in the year 1944,
- Although used in the film about Pokryshkin, not his aircraft.
 
Screenshot from the doc film about Pokryshkin found on Youtube:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/P-39_12.jpg)
- P-39 S/N: xx273 (xx-x273) ?
- Although used in the film about Pokryshkin, not his aircraft.
 
P-39N, 16th GvIAP, ?50?  Pilot - Konstantin Sukhov, Eastern Germany, Spring 1945:
(http://img.wp.scn.ru/camms/ar/297/pics/1_2_b1.jpg)
'50' was one of the 16 GIAP's colorful P-39Ns that retained its Buffalo applied white disc. Indeed, it must have done so for quite some time, as Sukhov was photographed piloting this aircraft in eastern Germany during 1945! The aircraft appears to have remained in its delivered condition, save for a red spinner and flash on the fin/rudder, this trimmed in white. Other P-39Qs of this unit demonstrate stars on white discs applied asymmetrically on the wings in the USAAF fashion, and it seems likely that '50' is also so marked.
Using the Autobahn as a runway, flew P-39Q-15 "white 50", Serial Number painted out (originally assigned to K.V. Sukhov).
 
Screenshot from the doc film about Pokryshkin found on Youtube:
(http://amyat.narod.ru/memo/pokryshkina_mk/10.jpg)
- Board Number painted but I cannot see it correctly,
- Although used in the film about Pokryshkin, not his aircraft.
 
Pokryshkin, B.B.Glinka (shot down on 14-Jul-1944, did not fly anymore), Rechkalov, Klubov (died on 1-Nov-1944 in La-7 accident) and some others:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/Rechkalov_P-39_08.jpg)
No board and serial number visible, not possible to identify that plane.

Any comments and corrections and photos are more than welcome.
Thank you for your help.
Regards,
    66misos


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: KL on September 12, 2012, 07:16:45 PM
Hi 66misos,
very good overview.

more photos for your collection:
Winter 1943/44
(http://www.wio.ru/aces/gal1/pokrysh7.jpg)

Famous Sept 1944 photo
(http://www.gazeta.lv/images/9giad.jpg)


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: learstang on September 12, 2012, 10:03:54 PM
Konstantin, was that last photograph taken in colour or colourised?

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: KL on September 12, 2012, 10:56:51 PM
was that last photograph taken in colour or colourised?

Colourised, of course  :)


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: learstang on September 13, 2012, 12:07:14 AM
was that last photograph taken in colour or colourised?

Colourised, of course  :)

I thought so.  Were there any actual colour photographs (or film) of Soviet aircraft taken by the Soviets during the GPW?  The only ones I've seen are German.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: KL on September 13, 2012, 01:59:31 AM
I haven't seen them yet.
The first Soviet colour film was "Victory parade" filmed in summer 1945 on captured German films and developed in occupied Germany.
In 1943 Exhibition of captured german war material in Moscow was also filmed in colour -so there is a Soviet colour movie of captured German planes


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: learstang on September 13, 2012, 04:35:10 AM
I haven't seen them yet.
The first Soviet colour film was "Victory parade" filmed in summer 1945 on captured German films and developed in occupied Germany.
In 1943 Exhibition of captured german war material in Moscow was also filmed in colour -so there is a Soviet colour movie of captured German planes

I wonder if the Germans made any colour films of Soviet trophies on display in Germany?  Now that would be something worth finding.  I don't know of any, but I'd love to see some.  Even just photographs would be great.  I've seen some colour photographs of Barbarossa victims, of course, but none of trophies on display in Germany.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on October 20, 2012, 11:00:15 PM
Hi KL,

I just received the book
(http://static.ozone.ru/multimedia/books_covers//1005304824.jpg)
as a present from my Russian friend  :)

Interesting book, some 750 pages. No photos of planes but pilots and officier from 16th GIAP. The book is basically a diary or list of all flights of the 16th GIAP day by day, flight by flight.
Basically each flight is described as "Group of planes of serial numbers (list of serials, no board numbers) flown by pilots (list of names) did something (date and time). During the flight this group together spent following ammunition (quantity and caliber of spent ammunition)." And then comment follows if there happend something interesting - usually big difference between reality and memoirs.

I found an interesting info about spent ammunition. There is written that unit started with P-39 Airacobras of type D-2, K-1 and L-1, all identified by serial number, but no board number. All these types should be armed with 37mm cannon. There is no mention about D-1 or P-400 type armed with 20mm cannon.

9-Apr-1943 - the first day on the front
Group flight, Pokryshkin plus other pilots, spent ammunition: 12,7mm and 7,62mm bullets.

10-Apr
Group flight, Pokryshkin plus other pilots, spent ammunition: 12 20mm cannon shells, 12,7mm and 7,62mm bullets,

11-Apr
Group flight, other pilots, spent ammunition: 80 37mm cannon shells, 12,7mm and 7,62mm bullets,
Group flight, Pokryshkin plus other pilots, spent ammunition: 76 37mm cannon shells, 12,7mm and 7,62mm bullets,
Group flight, other pilots, spent ammunition: 28 37mm cannon shells, 12,7mm and 7,62mm bullets,

15-Apr
Group flight, Pokryshkin plus other pilots, spent ammunition: 57 37mm cannon shells, 10 20mm cannon shells, 12,7mm and 7,62mm bullets,
Group flight, Pokryshkin plus other pilots, spent ammunition: 60 37mm cannon shells, 12,7mm and 7,62mm bullets,

16-Apr and latter
Group flight, spent ammunition: 37mm cannon shells and 12,7mm and 7,62mm bullets. No 20mm cannon shells.

Seems that during the first week or so there was at least one P-39 armed with 20mm cannon and a small number of 20mm shells was spent. As mentioned above no such type (D-1 or P-400 or field replacement?) is listed in the official records.
On the other side, there is no mention (or at least I did not find it) about 20mm cannon shells after 15-April. Another indication that stories in memoirs about replacement of old, weak (with 20mm cannon) "13" by stronger "100" (with 37mm cannon) sometime in July are just a fictions.

Regards,
     66misos


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on October 21, 2012, 03:48:07 PM
Hi,
I browed in that book again I found info that change written above or are in contradiction with the other info already posted in this topic.

1.) Tabachenko in his book writes that armament of Airacobras consisted generally of 20mm cannon, 12,7mm guns and 7,62mm guns. Version D-2 had reduced volume of bullets for fuselage guns to reduce overall mass of the plane. And in the last Q version was installed 37mm cannon instead of 20mm cannon.
This is in the direct contradiction with the all info on the specialized P-39 pages - there was primarily 37mm cannon on all P-39 version except export versions P-39D-1 and P-400. ???
However, it is in line with the pictures:
(http://airaces.narod.ru/all2/babak5.jpg)

(http://airaces.narod.ru/all2/babak6.jpg)

showing of P-39, S/N: 138416, reputedly version D-2, but having 20mm cannon instead of 37mm cannon (my post ? Reply #49 on: September 06). This plane was in 45th IAP since February 1943.

I have to correct my yesterday statement
Quote
16-Apr and latter
Group flight, spent ammunition: 37mm cannon shells and 12,7mm and 7,62mm bullets. No 20mm cannon shells.

While browsing the book again and found what I overlooked before (Russian in not my native language) about spent ammunition:
- Group flight on May 10th, 26 37mm cannon shells and 18 20mm cannon shells plus 12,7 and 7,62 bullets,
- Group flight on May 14th, 36 37mm cannon shells and 108 20mm cannon shells plus 12,7 and 7,62 bullets, latter group flight spent 15 37mm and 50 20mm cannon shells,
- Group flight on May 27th, 6 37mm cannon shells and 5 20mm cannon shells plus 12,7 and 7,62 bullets,
- Group flight on May 28th, 19 37mm cannon shells and 54 20mm cannon shells plus 12,7 and 7,62 bullets, latter group flight spent 8 37mm and 6 20mm cannon shells, etc.

It looks like they used P-39 planes with both 20mm cannon or with 37mm cannon for quite a long period (April-May). ???
So building early P-39 of serial 138xxx from 16 GIAP armed with 20mm cannon would not have been a nonsense if photo of the particular aircraft does not clearly show 37mm cannon.

regards,
     66misos


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on October 30, 2012, 05:25:31 PM
Hi,

I would like to add some other details about Airacobras with 20mm cannons in VVS.
Roughly in parallel with P-39D production, Bell manufactured a total of 675 "P-400" Airacobras for export. The P-400 was very similar to the P-39D-1, with the 20 millimeter Hispano cannon, but instead of 7.62 millimeter Brownings in the wings it featured 7.7 millimeter (0.303 caliber) Brownings for compatibility with British ammunition.
Only a portion of the P-400 order was delivered to the UK. The remainder of the batch was shipped to the USSR or was taken in to US Army Air Forces (USAAF) service.

There is an interesting article "Early Versions of Airacobra Aircraft in Soviet Aviation" by Valeriy Romanenko at http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/romanenko/p-39/ (http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/romanenko/p-39/). I picked up info about L-L aircraft delivery/acceptance process:

"?The crates containing aircraft components were opened, inventoried, and checked for damage in the presence of the representative of the Import Directorate. Special attention was given to the "newness" of the aircraft (had this aircraft been subjected to previous use and repair).

? a significant portion of the Hurricanes and P-40Cs that had arrived earlier had been flown for some time in the RAF and had exhausted a significant percentage of their use life. Representatives of the military commission of the USSR in Great Britain had noted cases when new aircraft arriving from the USA were taken into the inventory of the Royal Air Force to replace other aircraft already in use. These aircraft underwent repair, were disassembled, packed in crates, and sent to the USSR.

P-39D-2 Airacobras (Bell Model-14A) arrived in the USSR exclusively by the "southern" route, through Iran.
In the summer of 1942, the Soviet VVS created an assembly airfield at Abadan (Iran) and positioned there approximately 300 Soviet engineers and and workers...

The route functioned in the following manner for Airacobras. The airplanes delivered by sea were unloaded in Abadan, assembled by Soviet specialists, and test flown by Soviet pilots. They were ferried along an air route to Teheran, to the Kvali Marga airfield, where military representatives of the Import Directorate received them. Subsequently the aircraft were ferried to a training center in the town Adzhi-Kabul [about 80 km southwest of Baku] (Azerbaydzhan) or to ferrying airfields in the vicinity of the city Kirovabad... British and American specialists were allowed minimal participation in the delivery of these aircraft.

At Adzhi-Kabul the delivered aircraft were turned over to the 25th ZAP, which was the "southern" training center analogous to the 22d ZAP. ? Specifically, in the period from 28 November 1942 through 4 May 1943, 57 Airacobra P-39D-2s (serial numbers 41-38414, 416-38, 440, 444-63, 520, 528, 532, 540, 541, 544-47, 550, 555, and 556) and one P-39D-1 (41-28257, the first in that series) arrived at 25th ZAP..."


Examples of the P-39D-1 and P-400 from USAF 35FG in Pacific from similar series (e.g. serial numbers) as 16th GIAP had:
S/N: 41-38343 (138343):
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3351/3529588461_671a6264ba.jpg)

S/N: 41-38347 (138347):
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2352/3530403014_243f42c690.jpg)

S/N: 41-38337 (138337):
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2229/3529587131_d146a30069.jpg)

Although these 3 photos are only examples of Airacobras from Pacific, they can give an idea how those former USAF planes were worn and that some repairing and repainting to make them looking good/new enough for L-L purposes was necessary.

Were they repainted (Olive Drab / Grey) in USA before transport or in Iran after assembling?
Did overall painting job include VVS red stars?
This could explain why the red stars with thin black outline are painted (at least in some cases) on the upperwings + underwings + fuselage like at Hurricanes and Spitfires and blue circles behind stars are not visible or almost not in many cases from that period:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/P-39_06.jpg)

(http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/glinkad12.jpg)

(http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/glinkas2.jpg)

(http://airaces.narod.ru/all2/babak6.jpg)

And info from Romanenko's article show that version P-39D1 was delivered to VVS via "southern" route and could also explain how pilots in 16th GIAP could fire 20mm cannon shells, e.g. used P-39D1, although this P-39 version in not mentioned in the (known) published documents about 16th GIAP.

Regards,
     66misos





Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: KL on October 30, 2012, 05:51:59 PM
Hi 66misos,  :)

According to V. Romanenko, VVS has received only 3 (only three!) P-39D-1.  Two were delivered through the Northern route and one arrived from the South.  IMHO, P-39D-1 has never been used in Pokrishkin's regiment.

There is some confusion around P-39D-2 nose cannon in western literature (english, incl literature published in Poland like the recent Mushroom P-39 book).  Some sources give 20mm cannon, some 37mm cannon for P-39D-2.  The most reliable date is in Romanenko's first P-39 book - P-39D-2 had 20mm cannon!!!
Earlier in this thread I also made a mistake and wrote about the 37mm cannon on Pokrishkin's P-39D-2.  That was wrong...  :-X

In April 1943, 16giap had both P-39D-2s and 37mm cannon equiped P-39K Airacobras.  In April-May 1943, Pokrishkin probably flew more than once on P-39D-2s.  It looks that the problem is in the Pokrishkin's memoirs:  he says that he scored most of his victories on No "13" and that he later switched from his 20mm equipped P-39D-2 to a 37mm equipped P-39N Airacobra.  From this, reader will conclude that No "13" was a P-39D-2.  In reality, No ?13? was P-39K S/N 24421.  It looks that Pokrishkin's "personal plane" was P-39D-2, but he flew more often P-39K No "13".  Everithing fits, even that episode when Pokrishkin replaced "his" old P-39D-2 with the later 37mm equipped P-39N Airacobra.

Cheers,
KL

PS:  You have collected great material in this thread - many questions are answered and the whole story about Pokrishkin's P-39s becomes clear...     


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on November 02, 2012, 04:25:51 PM
Hi KL,

thank you for your post. I really appreciate your "PS"  ;)
However, there is still a lot of questions.

I made a time diagram showing presence of the different (Pokryshkin's) P-39s in 16 GIAP. Everything is put on the one commom time line to get clearer picture.
Where exact date is known, there color starts/ends sharply.
Where exact date is not known, there color gradient is used.
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/121108_Pokryskin_TimeDiagram_v02.jpg).

Some interesting outcomes resulting from that picture:
1.) the first one was S/N: 24421, then S/N: 138520 came after 10 days and then, after cca 1 month, S/N: 29004 came. And for some (short) time all three together were active in 16 GIAP,
2.) all known photos of Pokryshkin's P-39s are from "before red spinner & red tail tip" era,
3.) one P-39N-5 S/N 219158 (S/N provided by Igor Zlobin) could reach "red spinner & red tail tip" era if survived long enough,
4.) there two "windows" where is no Pokryshkin's plane but Pokryshkin evidently flew fight flight - either there were several another "100"s or he  regularly used someone's else plane. After he was assigned 16 GIAP commander (end of 1943) it was only upon his discretion what/whose plane he will use.
5.) yellow bars shows presence of the other P-39s with similar S/N to Pokryshkin's 219158.

Here are some notes about plane usage in VVS (info from tabachenko book).
The particular plane was not strictly dedicated to the particular pilot. Any pilot of particular IAP (GIAP) could be ordered to fly any plane from the unit. However, each pilot made effort to fly ?his? plane. But if some better pilot or pilot without plane at that moment (e.g. damaged plane, maintenance, etc.) had to fly, he could fly any plane ordered to him by the unit commander.
Only person strictly related to the plane was named technician. He was responsible ?by his head? that aircraft and its armament were duly. His duty was to prepare the plane to fly, but only commander decided who will fly the plane.
Commander of the IAP (GIAP) could choose fly any plane from his unit, because all planes were ?his?.

Example: When Pokryshkin got 3rd HSU, he was photographed in the Rechkalov?s plane in August 1944 after returned from flight in this Rechkalov?s plane.
There were only 21 Airacobras with ready to fly status in 16 GIAP on April 29, 1943 ? and only 5 of them were P-39D-2, rest of them were P-39K-1 and L1. P-39K-1 S/N: 24421 was on the first place of the list (belonged to unit commander?), and P-39D-2 S/N: 138520 was the last one on the list. The list was not in alphabetical order, or version order, or S/N order. It looks more like unit hierarchy order.

Regards,
     66misos


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on November 08, 2012, 01:07:21 PM
Hi,

I found some mistakes in my previous diagram above. I checked again dates and relevant photos and prepared another diagram. Here I included more aircraft from 16GIAP - either known photos showing serial numbers or aircrafts with similar serial number mentioned in Tabachenko's book to get broader view when particular camo and marking was used.
On the very left side of the diagram are small pictures - photos already shown within this thread - to help you get better idea about particular plane.

I unified used colors - green (with date, if known) shows start and period of usage of the plane, red  (with date, if known) shows end of usage (written-off, crash, shot down, etc.)

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/121109_P-3916GIAP_v02b.jpg)

Colored area shows period when USAAF changed national marking and when red spinner and red tail tip was introduced. Interestingly, majority of the known photos are from era before red spinner and red tail tip. It looks like almost all profiles on the web showing P-39s from Kuban campaign with red spinner and red tail tip are incorrect.

If dates are correct, then all three P-39 with S/N: 24421, 138520 and 29004 were in 16GIAP during period from cca 15-May to 20-Jun (and could be flown by Pokryshkin, that time 21-25 victories), with very probably the same camo and marking - without red spinner and red tail tip and without victory marks.

Regards,
     66misos


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on November 17, 2012, 01:36:08 AM
Hi,

here I tried to visually summarized what was already written about Pokryshkin's planes in this thread. I made a simple profile of his first plane, P-39K-1, S/N: 24421, board no. "13" (Александр Иванович Покрышкин, П-39K-1 "Аэрокобра", серийный номер 42-4421 (24421), бортовой номер ?13?, Апрель / Май 1943.), focused more on the camouflage and marking for modeller purpose, than on the construction details:
- propeller spinner in Olive Drab,
- propeller spinner with the big hole and 37mm cannon,
- black propeller blades with yellow stencils and yellow tips,
- no red tail tip,
- red stars with thin black outline on 6 positions,
- red stars are painted over standard USAAF stars, not over "Buffalo factory version" (red stars over white circles on the fuselage and underwings),
- blue circles under the red stars are overpainted with Olive Drab and Medium Grey - centrally with the US paints, not in the field conditions within 16 GIAP, fresh color is visible against weathered surrounding area,
- digits "13" in the big version after repainting, mentioned by Pokryshkin himself in his memoirs,
- no victory marks:

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/121116BellP-39K-1_Pokryshkinno13_v01.jpg)


As there is not known photo of this plane I used following photos as references from the same time period together with time diagram posted on 8-Nov-2012:

1.) planes with the very similar serial no. showing:
     - red star on the fuselage without any (visible) circle bellow it,
     - propeller spinner of the same color as fuselage,
     - original size of the board number (for small "13")
(http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/glinkad12.jpg)

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/GlinkaDmitriyBorisovich_Kuban1943_v02.jpg)


2.) plane showing:
     - red star on the right upperwing without any (visible) circle bellow it,
     - yellow tips in the propeller blades:
(http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/glinkas2.jpg)


3.) Plane showing new, big size of the board number (for big "13"):
(http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/pokr_ai4.jpg)


4.) Plane with:
     - big hole in the propeller spinner for either 37mm or 20mm cannon,
     - bright stencils on the propeller blade, e.g. black blades with yellow tips:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/Pokryshkin30.jpg)    (http://www.stoletie.ru/upload/iblock/2da/4_preview.jpg?rand=306505402)


5.) Big hole without cover for 37mm cannon in propeller:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/Canon37mmwithoutcover_05.jpg)


6.) Another plane with:
     - red star on the right upperwing without any (visible) circle bellow it,
     - red star on the fuselage without any (visible) circle bellow it,
     - black propeller blades with bright (yellow) stencils and yellow tips, but without Aeroproducts logo,
     - original size of the board number (for small "13"):
(http://airaces.narod.ru/all2/babak6.jpg)
(http://airaces.narod.ru/all2/babak5.jpg)


7.) Planes (on b&w photos #2,3,4,5) with no visible or very subtle visible darker circle bellow red star on the fuselage:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/P-39_06.jpg)

Non of these planes shows red tail tip.

Any comment is more than welcome.

Regards,
     66misos


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 17, 2012, 01:17:35 PM
Hi Misos,
it is a nice work of research and a nice drawing. Are you working for some site or publication?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on November 18, 2012, 09:10:23 AM
Hi Massimo,
thank you ;) I do not work for any site or publication. It is just hobby.

regards,
     66misos


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 18, 2012, 02:15:24 PM
I see. Would you collect drawings and documents into a page on P-39s, maybe with the help of Konstantin? If you have the skill to make color profiles, the thing looks very feasible.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: marluc on November 18, 2012, 02:41:54 PM
Great research 66misos,thanks for sharing it with us.Greetings.

Martin


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on November 18, 2012, 10:50:55 PM
Hi,
Thanks again.
Massimo, no problem for me to collect all documents and drawings into a page about Pokryshkin's P-39s. As a modeller I found a lot of answers regarding VVS camo at your pages. For reciprocity I will be happy to help other modellers or enthusiatists to find answers.
However, I would like to post profiles of three other P-39 flown by Pokryshkin and expose them to discussion before. ;)

Regards,
     66misos


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: learstang on November 19, 2012, 01:14:37 AM
Your efforts are appreciated, 66misos!

Best Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 19, 2012, 07:21:02 AM
Hi Misos,
 you can start when you feel to be ready. Maybe you could discuss and draw other P-39s too.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on November 19, 2012, 04:09:07 PM
Hi Massimo,

my attention was attracted by P-400 Aircobras from the 19th GIAP in East Carelia.
But only after this my "heart affair" is finished. My free time has limited span and there is so many things to do ;) Three almost finished kits are waiting.
Regards,
    66misos


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: KL on November 19, 2012, 06:50:36 PM
my attention was attracted by P-400 Aircobras  from the 19th GIAP in East Carelia.

AFAIK, designation P-400 wasn't used for any Soviet Aircobras...
According to  http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_fighters/p39_5.html

After Pearl Harbor, the USA found itself in desperate need of aircraft to stem the Japanese onslaught in the Pacific. Consequently, nearly 200 of the British direct-purchase Airacobras still in the USA were promptly requisitioned by the USAAC. Although they were similar to the USAAC's P-39Ds, they were not identical and were known by the USAAC under the non-standard designation of P-400. The P-400 designation had, in fact, been associated with the British Airacobras for contractual purposes as early as August 1941. The USAAC P-400s retained their original British serial numbers and their three-color camouflage paint. Most of these planes were used for training stateside, but some of them were rushed to the Southwest Pacific in an attempt to stem the onrushing Japanese advance.

So, P-400s were Aircobras made for RAF, but wich ended in USAAC service...  If such British order Airacobra was supplied to Soviets by the British it should have had British designation, i.e. Airacobra Mk I.  If supplied by Americans it was designated P-39D Airacobra...

Regards,
KL 


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: KL on November 19, 2012, 07:58:26 PM
corrected P-39D-2 No 138428 profile by M. Bikov at http://owl-99.livejournal.com/1824.html
This Airacobra was flown (mostly) by Fadeyev

(http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/owl_99/51346797/1621/original.jpg)

No red spinner and tail tip, no blue disc (it's OD now).

Some more recent profiles by I. Zlobin and others are available at  http://soviet-aces.narod.ru/index.html

D. Glinka's Airacobra
(http://soviet-aces.narod.ru/abc/g/glinka_d2.jpg)

Pokrishkin's P-39N
(http://soviet-aces.narod.ru/abc/p/pokrysh2.jpg)

Rechkalov's N and Q
(http://soviet-aces.narod.ru/abc/r/rechkal3.jpg)
(http://soviet-aces.narod.ru/abc/r/rechkal4.jpg)

Klubov's N
(http://soviet-aces.narod.ru/abc/k/klubov3.jpg)

Regards,
KL


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on November 19, 2012, 11:25:11 PM
Hi KL,
I still do not understand one thing - how it was possible that some P-39 from 16th GIAP could fire 20mm cannon shells. :-\

1.) overall info about P-39 is on:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_P-39_Airacobra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_P-39_Airacobra)

2.) table showing what P-39 version had what serial number, or into what series it belongs:
http://www.uswarplanes.net/p39p63.html (http://www.uswarplanes.net/p39p63.html)

3.) history with explanation what P-39 version was produced in what time period:
http://www.americancombatplanes.com/p39_1.html (http://www.americancombatplanes.com/p39_1.html)

plus a number of other pages on Google.
All pages I saw until now say that basically all P-39 versions were armed with 37mm cannon (e.g. by original design), only version P-39D-1 and P-400 (Lend&Lease models, produced parallelly) were armed with 20mm cannon.
According to the pages above:
P-39D-1 (Model 14A) was the only "D" version with 20mm cannon and had serials 41-28257 to 41-28406, 41-38220 to 41-38404 and 41-38563.
All other versions, including Fadeyev's P-39, board no. "37", serial no. 41-38428 was version D-2 (Model 14A-1) belonged to production series 41-38405 to 41-38562 and armed with 37mm cannon.
I suppose that Americans know exactly what they write about their own plane.

On the other hand, Tabachenko writes in his book that pilots from 16th GIAP used both 20mm (in minority) and 37mm (in vast majority) cannon shells.
And to make situation more foggy, the "oldest" P-39 mentioned in his book is board no. "40", serial 41-38416, which is the eleventh plane from already D-2 series, not D-1 series.
But photo of this plane:
(http://airaces.narod.ru/all2/babak6.jpg)
(http://airaces.narod.ru/all2/babak5.jpg)
shows long thin barrel going from propeller - most probably 20mm cannon without muzzle break ???#1  37mm cannon had much shorter barrel.
Propeller spinner is clearly painted with the color different from Olive Drab or Medium Grey, but very similar to bright color of the red star on the fuselage, although plane crashed on 16-Aug-1943... ???#2

Looks like something somewhere is wrong in the "paperwork".

Regards,
     66misos






Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: KL on November 20, 2012, 12:34:12 AM
Hi KL,
I still do not understand one thing - how it was possible that some P-39 from 16th GIAP could fire 20mm cannon shells. :-\

16 giap initially had P-39D-2s armed with 20mm cannons and P-39Ks and P-39Ls armed with 37mm cannons.

No doubts about P-39D-2 and its 20mm cannon in "Aerokobri vstupaut v boi" - its technical description is based on original manuals.  Drawings are also from original manuals.

Quote
I suppose that Americans know exactly what they write about their own plane.

Americans knew what they were making and sending to SSSR.  The problem was created later in popular literature in which erronous information was perpetuated.
HTH,
KL


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on November 20, 2012, 08:16:25 AM
Hi KL,
very interesting, but for me still confusing  ???
Would it be possible to post any picture, drawing or instruction showing that some or all P-39D-2 in VVS were armed with 20mm cannon, instead of 37mm cannon? It would by very significant information.
Thank you very much in advance.

Regards,
     66misos


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: KL on November 20, 2012, 06:17:49 PM
very interesting, but for me still confusing  ???
Would it be possible to post any picture, drawing or instruction showing that some or all P-39D-2 in VVS were armed with 20mm cannon, instead of 37mm cannon? It would by very significant information.

First, forget what Wikipedia says!  Then, download Romanenkov's "Aerokobri vstupayut v boi" - everything is explained there:
P-39D (Bell Model 15) was armed with 37mm cannon.  It was ordered by Americans for their USAAC.  60+360 were made.
P-39D-1 and P-39D-2 (Bell Model 14A) were Land-Lease orders.  Both were armed with more reliable 20mm cannons.  This was an American licence of the British Hispano designated M-1.  Main difference between D-1 and D-2 was the engine.

One single P-39D-1 ended in 104 giap.  All other Aircobras armed with 20mm cannons that fought at Kuban in spring 1943 were P-39D-2.  Fadeyev's 41-38428 "37" was P-39D-2, Iskrin's 4138555 "27" was P-39D-2.  Rechkalov sometimes flew on P-39D-2 41-38547, Pokrishkin on 41-38520.

P-39D-2 Techn description from Romanenkov's book:
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/043.jpg)
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/044.jpg)
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/045.jpg)

HTH,
KL
 


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: learstang on November 20, 2012, 06:33:33 PM
I have a question about the technical manuals for the Kobras, Konstantin; were the Soviets supplied with any Russian manuals, or were they all in English, which then had to be translated?  I seem to recall that they were in English.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: KL on November 20, 2012, 08:25:11 PM
... were the Soviets supplied with any Russian manuals, or were they all in English, which then had to be translated?  I seem to recall that they were in English.

American manuals were supplied with L-L planes. Soviets created and published their own manuals in Russian.  Russian manual for Airacobra Mk I is available on the web

Самолет Аэрокобра c мотором аллисон V-1710-E4. Техническое описание
(http://mirageswar.com/uploads/posts/2010-12/1293030107_airacobra.with.allison-350.jpg)

All differences between P-39D and P-39D-2 are listed at the end of this manual .

HTH,
KL


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: learstang on November 20, 2012, 09:10:24 PM
Thank you for the information, Konstantin!  I'll look for that manual (if I don't already have it - I have quite a few GPW manuals).

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: KL on November 20, 2012, 09:28:24 PM
Hi 66misos,

if you read carefully Ray Wagner's P-39 pages it is clear that P-39D-2 was armed with 20mm cannon.

The P-39D and export P-400 came off the assembly lines at the same time, both with the V-1710-35 engine, self-sealing tanks, four .30-caliber wing guns with 4,000 rounds, and two synchronized .50s with 400 rounds in the nose. The P-39D had a 37-mm M-9 gun with 30 rounds, 191 pounds of armor, and 66 pounds of armor-glass. Since tank protection reduced internal fuel capacity from 170 to 120 gallons, a February 1941 order added provisions for a 75-gallon belly drop tank, or a 600-pound bomb, on the P-39D.

The P-400 used the more rapid-firing 20-mm HS gun with a 60-round drum, 231 pounds of armor and 60 pounds of armor-glass, the heaviest protection of any American fighter, as well as the 240-pound leak proof fuel bags and a 110-pound radio.

The first P-39D, priced at $41,479, was delivered February 3, 1941, but remained at the factory until December, while regular deliveries to Selfridge Field began May 5. Bell completed 429 P-39D models in 1941, too quickly for the available guns or Curtiss Electric propellers; only 390 37-mm aircraft guns in total were completed that year.

Of 675 Airacobra Is built, 477 were shipped to Britain, two lost in tests, and 196 requisitioned by the Army Air Force at the factory after the United States entered the war. The USSR received 195 from Britain via convoys to North Russia, and 71 others were sunk en route.* Heavy convoy losses delayed shipment to Russia of another 179 P-400s which were instead transferred to two AAF groups in the United Kingdom, leaving only 32 retained or expended by the RAF.

Lend-lease funds were used for the Model 14A, first ordered June 11, 1941, to follow the Model 14 in 1942. The first 336 were designated P-39D-1 and had a 20-mm gun with 60 rounds, two synchronized .50s with 430 rounds in the nose, four .30-caliber wing guns with 4,000 rounds, 177 pounds of armor, and 65 pounds of armor-glass, and a 129-pound radio. Most were requisitioned by the AAF, and 158 similar P-39D-2s were delivered to the AAF and the Soviet Union with V-1710-63 engines.

...
Lend-lease shipments via the Persian Gulf totaled 2,115 P-39s, with 2,020 turned over at Abadan, in Iran, beginning on December 13, 1942. The first were a P-39D-1 and 60 P-39D-2s with 20-mm guns, but the rest all had the 37-mm cannon.


from http://www.americancombatplanes.com/p39_1.html

Conclusion:  Airacobra 138416 is STANDARD P-39D-2 !!!
But photo of this plane:
(http://airaces.narod.ru/all2/babak6.jpg)
(http://airaces.narod.ru/all2/babak5.jpg)
shows long thin barrel going from propeller - most probably 20mm cannon without muzzle break ???#1  37mm cannon had much shorter barrel.
Propeller spinner is clearly painted with the color different from Olive Drab or Medium Grey, but very similar to bright color of the red star on the fuselage, although plane crashed on 16-Aug-1943... ???#2
 



Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on November 21, 2012, 12:53:01 PM
Hi KL,

thank you very, very much for posted documents. I already have them both already ;D
And yes, they write in Technical Manual from 1943 on page 4 that there was 20mm cannon. And at the end of document, where differences between P-39D-2 (Model 14A) and P-39D (Model 14) are described, cannon in not mentioned. Only different amount of ammunition for machine guns.

The misunderstanding results from situation when "D" in P-39 version designation in some sources meant to be main version (like N, Q) and in other sources it meant to be subversion (like D-1, D-2). In this situation sentence "P-39D was armed with 37mm cannon" has two different meanings. Your posts proved which one is true ;)

So yes, it is clear and confirmed now. P-39D-2 flown by Pokryshkin and other pilots in 16th GIAP were armed with 20mm cannon.

Plus they write there that P-39D-2 was equipped with Curtiss-Electric propeller (pictures are here to show propeller appearance, not D versions):
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/CurtissElectrics.jpg) or (http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/Canon20mm_05.jpg)

Versions K and L were equipped with Aeroproducts propeller (pictures are here to show propeller appearance, not K and L versions):
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/Canon37mmwithcover_02.jpg) or (http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/Pokryshkin17b_P-39.jpg)

When comparing dimensions and position of the stencils on the both propeller types, Curtiss-Electric stencil is wider and shorter and positioned closer to the propeller blade root than Aeroproducts stencil which is narrower and longer and positioned further from blade root.

So pictures:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/Pokryshkin30.jpg) and (http://www.stoletie.ru/upload/iblock/2da/4_preview.jpg?rand=306505402)
show:
- propeller spinner with the "big hole" for cannon,
- propeller blade has stencil positioned close to its root.

So in the situation when following options were possible in that time (before Pokryshkin's 1st HSU):
1.) P-39D-2 with Curtiss-Electric propeller and 20mm cannon, or
2.) P-39K-1 with Aeroproducts propeller and 37mm cannon, or
3.) P-39L-1 with Curtiss-Electric propeller and 37mm cannon, or
4.) P-39N with Aeroproducts propeller and 37mm cannon,
pictures above should show Pokryshkin in front of P-39D-2 with 20mm cannon.

KL, thank you again for your help.

Regards,
     66misos





Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: KL on November 21, 2012, 11:42:35 PM
Propelers by P-39 types from
(http://base13.glasnet.ru/text/p39bakur/c0.jpg)
http://base13.glasnet.ru/text/p39bakur/p39.htm

Тип Мотор Мощность, лс Чрезвычайная
мощность, лс Винт
P-39D V-1710-35 1150 - Кертисс
P-39D-2 V-1710-63 1325 1550 Кертисс
P-39F V-1710-35 1150 - Аэропроп
P-39K V-1710-63 1325 1550 Аэропроп
P-39L V-1710-63 1325 1550 Кертисс
P-39M V-1710-83 1200 1420 Кертисс
P-39N V-1710-85 1200 1420 Аэропроп
P-39Q V-1710-85 1200 1420 Аэропроп


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on November 22, 2012, 12:59:31 AM
Hi,
I tried to make a "visual summary" of the second plane flown by Pokryshkin, plane P-39D-2 (Александр Иванович Покрышкин, П-39Д-2 "Аэрокобра", серийный номер 41-38520 (138520), бортовой номер ?130?, Апрель / Май 1943).
Neither this plane is photodocumented with visible board no. together with serial no. Only 2 photos posted yesterday showing Pokryshkin standing in front of some P-39D-2 could represent this plane.

There is only info that there was plane with board no. "130", and that there was a plane with serial no. 138520 and that Pokryshkin flew plane "130" cca twenty times during April-May 1943. Plane S/N: 138520 came to 16th GIAP two weeks after P-39K-1 S/N: 24421.

Putting all that info posted up to date together, camouflage and marking should be very similar or same as on P-39K-1.

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/121121BellP-39D-2_Pokryshkinno130_v01.jpg)

Main differences between this P-39D2 and previous P-39K-1 were:
- nose vents are missing now,
- there is 20mm cannon instead of 37mm cannon,
- there is Curtiss-Electric propeller instead of Aeroproducts propeller.

Best regards,
     66misos



Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: KL on November 22, 2012, 11:32:01 PM
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/121116BellP-39K-1_Pokryshkinno13_v01.jpg)

Hmmm?   ???
According to Romanenko, Pokrishkin flew this P-39K-1 from April 02 to June 20.  It was then re-numbered to "130" and passed to Samsonov who flew on it til October 1943...
Zlobin posted orig documents showing that Pokrishkin flew "130" in June (before Samsonov?)...


(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/121121BellP-39D-2_Pokryshkinno130_v01.jpg)

P-39D-2 138520 was comanders plane, Pokrishkin flew it once in April.  From April 24, 1943 it was "personal" plane of P.P. Ketov. It survived till end of 1943...  No tactical Number for this P-39D-2...  


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on November 23, 2012, 11:23:30 AM
Hi KL,
I fully agree with you, that "Hmmm ???" is more than appropriate in this case. Thre is a controversy with this plane.
I browsed again all relevant posts and pages in Tabachenko book for relevant time period with interesting result.

According to Romanenko, Pokrishkin flew this P-39K-1 from April 02 to June 20.  It was then re-numbered to "130" and passed to Samsonov who flew on it til October 1943...
Zlobin posted orig documents showing that Pokrishkin flew "130" in June (before Samsonov?)...
P-39D-2 138520 was comanders plane, Pokrishkin flew it once in April.  From April 24, 1943 it was "personal" plane of P.P. Ketov. It survived till end of 1943...  No tactical Number for this P-39D-2...  


HOWEVER,
this is a shortened part of the article from Suchov?s (pilot in 16 GIAP since May 30, 1943) book Эскадрилья ведет бой about the moment when Pokryshkin exchanged his old ?13? with the new ?100?:
In mid-July ... We stopped by a fighter with the tail number "13". It is well known commander?s plane. Actually his former plane.  "Thirteenth" already did its job?fought many fights, many forsages during hot days. It's time to change the engine...
Nearby is the aircraft... almost new one. To beat "Junkers" and "Heinkels" ? it needs more powerful weapons. And here it is: a 37-millimeter cannon ...
Pokryshkin is weighing the possibility of one and the other plane. He knows "thirteenth", he likes her. Or to take a new one?
Pokryshkin strode towards a new plane.
- Comrade Captain, what number to paint?
- The ?One? has to be for the regiment commander.
- He did not fly, he is "sick" all the time - Sasha Klubov says.
- All the same, is not allowed! - says Pokryshkin.
- Then the ?ten"!
- It is better to "thirty", the number of kills - says Regiment Engineer Captain Kopylov.
Lieutenant Nikolai Trofimov says with a smile:
- We must look forward - to count to one hundred ...
 - Write "hundred"! ? Alexander succumbed to the general mood, too, laughed, waved his hand:
- Okay, if ?one hundred? then ?one hundred?. Paint it!
From that day a new call sign was approved for Pokryshkin: Hundredth ...



...Finally, this I found in the Pokryshkin?s book Небо войны (Sky of War) about replacement his old ?13? with new ?100?:
I flew almost all time on the plane with board number 13 and shot down more than 20 enemy planes. But when new Airacobras with the stronger armament arrived, I decided to take one of them.  Stepanov received my ?13?. He did not want to fly with ?13? so they pained 0 behind 13. He was shot down during the first fight. Now I have also three-digit number on my plane and I have got order not to call with my name because German fighters already hunt me. I try to call with my new number but it was very difficult to pronounce. Boys laugh.
- Paint me hundred! I told them.
- Here hundred, here hundred. Short and clear, isn?t it?
Since that I flew plane with board number ?100?.



...Pokryshkin flew also ?130? on 10-Apr-1943 and 17-Apr-1943 according to the ЖБД (журнал боевых действий ? combat book) of the 16 GIAP:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/Pokryshkin23_130.jpg)

According to the Tabachenko's book:

8-Apr-1943, P-39K-1, 42-4421 (24421) delivered to 16th GIAP, group of 22 P-39s under command of Isaev flew to the front. Pokryshkin was part of this group. Means that Isaev - commander od 16th GIAP already had his own plane, Pokryshkin flew different plane (most probably 24421). And 138520 had still 2 weeks to come a part of 16th GIAP.

10-Apr-1943 (p.40), 07:48, 6 P-39 (Teterin-Starchikov, Bereznoy-Sapunov, Naumenko-Sutyrin),
                            08:55, 6 P-39 (Pokryshkin-Paskeev, Shagov-Ostrovskij, Kozlov-Golubev),
                            09:55, 5 P-39 (Iskrin, Naumenko, Bereznoj, Sutyrin, Savin)
                            totally used 12 shells 20mm, no 37mm shell.
                            14:30, 12 P-39 (Kryukov, Pokryshkin, Rechkalov, Stepanov, Shagov, Iskrin, Naumenko, Bereznoy, Starchikov, Sapunov, Nikitin, Savin)
                            neither 20mm nor 37mm cannon shell spent,
                            14:50, 4 P-39 (Tabachenko-Mametov, Ostrovskij-Paskeev) - no fight,
                            16:20, 8 P-39 (Fadeyev, Fedorov, Trud, Erchov, Chesnokov, Moiseenko, Gorochov, Efimov) - no fight,
                            16:55, 9 P-39 (Teterin, Iskrin, Naumenko, Rechkalov, Savin, Sapunov, Bereznoy, Nikitin, Starchikov),
                            17:35, 10 P-39 (Pokryshkin, Shulga, Shagov, Isaev, Kryukov, Paskaev, Ostrovskiy, Mametov, Tabachenko, Stepanov)

17-Apr-1943 (p.61), 10:05, 11 P-39 (Pokryshkin-Paskeev, Rechkalov, Tabachenko, Bereznoy, Sapunov, Iskrin, Sutyrin, Fadeev, Trud, Ershov),
                            15:32, 2x6 P-39 (Fadeev-Trud, Mochalov-Savin, Iskrin-Sutyrin and Bereznoy-Sapunov, Rechkalov-Tabachenko, Paskayev-Shagov).

22-Apr-1943 , P-39D-2, 41-38520 (138520) delivered to 16th GIAP. Is it possible that Isaev, commander of 16th GIAP was without his personal plane untill this moment? I am not sure with that.

End of June 1943 - Isaev, commander of 16th GIAP, signed order no.046 to pay reward 5000 rubels to Mayor Pokryshkin for 100 combat flights without aircraft damage, crash and without lost of orientation in the plane P-39 serial no. 24421 during time period from 9-Apr to 20-Jun 1943.

If all that is true, or at least if Tabachenko's book and data in the Combat Book is true, then:
1) 8-Apr-1943, P-39K-1, 42-4421 (24421) delivered 16th GIAP,
2.) 17-Apr-1943 Pokryshkin flew P-39 with the boad no. "130" (photo from Combat Book),
3.) 22-Apr-1943, P-39D-2, 41-38520 (138520) delivered to 16th GIAP.

and then it could mean that Pokryshkin flew P-39K-1 (armed with 37mm cannon), serial no. 42-4421 (24421), board no. "130" on 17-Apr-1943.
And the same plane was most probably flown also on 10-Apr-1943, e.g. repainting "13" to "130" does not look very probably on this plane.
And question is what plane had board no. "13".

P-39D-2, 41-38520 (138520) belonged to the production series 41-38405 / 41-38562 produced in period Feb/Dec 1941, e.g. delivered to the 16th GIAP after about one and half year after produced,
P-39K-1, 42-4421 (24421) belonged to the production series 42-4244 / 42-4453 produced in period Jul/Nov 1942, e.g. delivered to the 16th GIAP after about half of the year after produced (http://www.uswarplanes.net/p39p63.html (http://www.uswarplanes.net/p39p63.html) and http://www.americancombatplanes.com/p39_1.html (http://www.americancombatplanes.com/p39_1.html)).

So my previous "visual summary" of P-39 42-4421 (24421) and 41-38520 (138520) seems to be incorrect  and need to be redone :'(

Regards,
     66misos


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on November 28, 2012, 05:10:53 PM
Hi,
seems that almost crystal clear things are becoming a bit foggy again.

Info already posted in this thread:
1.)
Quote
Quote from: KL on November 22, 2012, 11:32:01 PM
According to Romanenko, Pokrishkin flew this P-39K-1 from April 02 to June 20.  It was then re-numbered to "130" and passed to Samsonov who flew on it til October 1943...
Zlobin posted orig documents showing that Pokrishkin flew "130" in June (before Samsonov?)...
P-39D-2 138520 was commander's plane, Pokrishkin flew it once in April.  From April 24, 1943 it was "personal" plane of P.P. Ketov. It survived till end of 1943...  No tactical Number for this P-39D-2... 

2.) This is a part of the profile made by Igor Zlobin in the past:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/Pokryshkin12_P-39K-15.jpg)
P-39-K, S/N: 24421, board no. 130.
He revised this picture after getting some new info - removed red spinner and tail tip, but "130" kept.

3.) Plane with board no. "130" flown by Pokryshkin since 10-Apr-1943, however no photo-confirmed info about version and serial no. of this P-39.

I checked again Tabachenko's book and found following:
4.) List of 16GIAP technicians with dedicated planes as of 29-Apr-1943 (only 21 planes):
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/16GIAP_technicians_29-Apr-1943b.jpg)
- technician Chuvashkin (P-39K-1 S/N: 24421) should maintain plane of 16GIAP commander (e.g. Isaev),
- technicians Yakovenko (P-39L-1 S/N: 24607) or Putkalyuk (P-39L-1 S/N: 24603) should maintain plane of 16GIAP Deputy/Assistant of commander for VSS (e.g. Pokryshkin), however this is not confirmed.
- list of technicians and planes is in the hierarchy order - the plane P-39D-2 S/N: 138520 is at the very end of that list.

5.) List of 16GIAP pilots as of 22-Jul-1943:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/16GIAP_pilots22-Jun-1943c.jpg)

5.) According to the mail from Igor Zlobin technician Chuvashkin maintained Pokryshkin's planes during the whole war.

Did P-39K-1 S/N: 24421 board no. "130" belong to the 16GIAP commander Isaev but regularly flown by Pokryshkin?
Hmmm   ???

Regards,
     66misos


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on November 30, 2012, 05:45:39 PM
Hi,
seems that no other substantial info bringing more lights to the discussion about early P-39s flown by Pokryshkin will come, so I updated pictures already posted in this thread before.

1.) plane P-39D-2, serial no. 138520, picture posted on 22-Nov-2012 (Александр Иванович Покрышкин, П-39Д-2 "Аэрокобра", серийный номер 41-38520 (138520), бортовой номер нет, Апрель 1943).
The follow-up discussion showed that most probably:
- this plane had no board number, or board number is not known,
- Pokryshkin flew this plane probably once or very rarely,
- this plane still was not in 16 GIAP when Pokryshkin already flew P-39 board no. 130,
so it is quite safe to not consider this plane as Pokryshkin's one.
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/130209BellP-39D-2_Pokryshkin_v03b_zps403d6792.jpg)
Image & Description updated on 10-Feb-2013.

2.) plane P-39K-1, serial no. 24421, picture posted on 17-Nov-2012 (Александр Иванович Покрышкин, П-39K-1 "Аэрокобра", серийный номер 42-4421 (24421), бортовой номер ?130?, Апрель/Июнь 1943).
The follow-up discussion showed that:
- Pokryshkin flew ?130? during April-May 1943 frequently according to the ЖБД (журнал боевых действий ? combat book) of the 16 GIAP (no serial no. mentioned),
- Pokryshkin get reward 5000 rubels for 100 combat flights without aircraft damage, crash and without lost of orientation in the plane P-39 serial no. 24421 during time period from 9-Apr to 20-Jun 1943 (no board no. mentioned),
- this plane was in 16GIAP together with the first P-39s,
so it is quite safe to consider plane P-39K-1 serial no. 24421 had board no. 130 and was flown by Pokryshkin regularly.
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/130209BellP-39K-1_130_Porkyshkin_v08b_zps86b06b58.jpg)
Image & Description updated on 10-Feb-2013.

However, I will by very happy if some post additional evidence confirming or correcting thoughts above.

Regards,
     66misos



Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on December 04, 2012, 04:23:37 PM
Hi,

Blue circles or not? That is (almost Hamlet's) question.

I visited a Plastic Kit Show last weekend. I met there guys from AML Decals, we discussed Pokryshkin?s  P-39s (numbers, blue circles under the red stars and victory marks ;)) They are quite confident about their interpretation at http://www.aml.cz/index.php/en/2012-04-25-17-22-02/item/119-amlc-8-014 (http://www.aml.cz/index.php/en/2012-04-25-17-22-02/item/119-amlc-8-014):
(http://www.aml.cz/media/k2/items/cache/47e29f9fe96a1771642fb05ac8a8fd00_XL.jpg)

V. Roman in his book Airacobras over Kuban writes, that there was a big airplane assembling factory in Abadan built by Douglas in line with USAF order.
Red stars painted in Abadan were in line with rules, e.g. with the thin (1cm) black outline. But blue circles were repainted rather sloppy, often with British or Russian paints, which did not match original US Olive Drab and Neutral Grey? So often blue circles were kept, red stars with black outline over them. The planes were flown to 25ZAP in Adji-Kabul after repainting.
But sometimes planes were flown from Abadan to Adji-Kabul with original USAF stars. In such cases the final look of the stars and circles strongly depended on the taste of the 25ZAP technical staff?

Following images, although showing different planes from the different fronts, could serve as good examples of ?circles were repainted rather sloppy, often with British or Russian paints, which did not match original US Olive Drab and Neutral Grey?.

1.) Original US repainting to give P-39 look of the new L-L plane (http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/photogallery/p-39_fairbanks/ (http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/photogallery/p-39_fairbanks/)):
(http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/photogallery/p-39_fairbanks/ig_p-39_firbanks_40.jpg)   (http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/photogallery/p-39_fairbanks/ig_p-39_firbanks_37.jpg)

2.) Soviet repainting (http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/sheppard/p39/ (http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/sheppard/p39/)):
(http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/sheppard/p39/P39-3.jpg)   (http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/sheppard/p39/P39-5.jpg)

(http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/sheppard/p39/P39-6.jpg)   (http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/sheppard/p39/p39f.jpg)

3.) and other P-39 from Finland:
(http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/photoreports/blenheim2001/p39007.jpg)   (http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/photoreports/blenheim2001/p39001.jpg)

4.) Repainting "rather sloppy" was not limited only to P-39s from 25ZAP:
(http://englishrussia.com/images/112012/dakotainsiberia/dakotainsiberia001-1.jpg)   (http://media.englishrussia.com/112012/dakotainsiberia/dakotainsiberia001-14.jpg)

(http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/articles/romanenko/p-40/126iap-w-1.jpg)   (http://i646.photobucket.com/albums/uu181/hurricanebuild/HurricaneZ2899VVS.jpg)

(http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/aircraft-pictures/200117d1335806013t-soviet-air-force-vvs-5985160136_03fdecd15b_b.jpg)   (http://ktsorens.tihlde.org/flyvrak/langryggen-03.jpg)

However, low contrast between OD background and circle on the b&w photos does not necessarily mean repainting. Here follow photos showing low contrast also on the original US insignia:
(http://1000aircraftphotos.com/Contributions/PippinBill/8157L.jpg)   (http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r202/USMF1/P-39/P-39N42-18927001a.jpg)

(http://www.americancombatplanes.com/images/17-56n.jpg)

Seems following approach could work:
  • 1.) No circle visible ? blue or white circle carefully repainted by Olive Drab and Neutral Grey,
  • 2.) Some low contrast circle visible ? could be either original blue circle kept or repainted. V. Roman in his book Airacobras entering the fight suggests green and blue for RAF roundels repainting. No specific color suggested for US blue circles, only statement that they were kept blue quite often.
  • 3.) (relatively) high contrast ? original blue circle kept.
Regards,
     66misos


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on December 17, 2012, 03:44:24 PM
Hi,

this is my interpretation of the next P-39 flown by Pokryshkin - P-39N-0, Serial No. 29004, Board no. 100 (Александр Иванович Покрышкин, П-39H-0 "Аэрокобра", серийный номер 42-9004 (29004), бортовой номер ?100?, Май/Июль 1943):

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/130209BellP-39N-0_100_Pokryshkin_v02b_zpsbb595b2e.jpg)
Image & Description updated on 10-Feb-2013.

This plane was delivered to 16 GIAP on 15-May-1943, only 3 weeks after P-39D-2 S/N: 138520 and month plus something after P-39K-1, S/N: 24421.
Its fate is a bit controversial. It was damaged at the end of July or beginning of August 1943 (depends on sources) and written off from 16GIAP. Then it served as a training plane in the different unit until 1944 and destroyed after the war (again depends on sources). Anyhow, Pokryshkin did not use it after it damaging.

The profile is based on the only known photo showing both serial and board number:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/Pokryshkin24_100-IgorZlobinmail.jpg)

The photo does not provide answer for question whether there were blue circles under the red stars or not. It only shows that red stars did not have white outline when plane was photographed.
But it shows also black propeller blades with the producer logo and bright (e.g. yellow) stencils (and so with yellow tips).
Here http://www.airaces.narod.ru/all2/babak.htm  (http://www.airaces.narod.ru/all2/babak.htm) are the only photos of the P-39 with the similar serial no. I was able to find:
(http://www.airaces.narod.ru/all2/babak8.jpg)
It is P-39N-0, S/N: 29033, flown by Babak and latter by Dolnikov. However it is retouched too much.

I decided for red stars without (e.g. overpainted) blue circles. It was more common to overpaint them at the beginning - see my previous mail.


The close inspection of the original photo shows details that provoke more questions than answers and brings us to the beginning of this thread:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/Pokryshkin14h_P-39no100b.jpg)
- does this photo show plane undergoing repair after the damage on July/august 1943? See supporting construction and missing cover of the left main landing gear.
- is the tail tip of the different color than basic camo (OD)?
- is the propeller spinner of the different color than basic camo (OD)?
- what is that regular pattern visible on the left front fuselage? Optical illusion, or victory stars or what?
- was that still Pokryshkin's plane when photographed?
I do not know, but just from curiosity, I made also this picture (А. И. Покрышкин?, П-39H-0 "Аэрокобра", серийный номер 42-9004 (29004), бортовой номер ?100?, осень 1943?):
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/121214BellP-39N-1_Pokryshkinno100repaired_v02b.jpg)


Just a note. Victory stars during Kuban campaign were not nonsense in general. V. Roman in his book Aircobras over Kuban has 3 photos of P-39s decorated with victory stars:

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/P-39_Victorystars_03.jpg)
Р-39К (S/N: 42-4401), 45 IAP, 2 victory stars оn the nose.

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/P-39_Victorystars_02.jpg)
Р-39К-1 (S/N: 42-4420), 298 IAP, before 29 September 1943

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/P-39_Victorystars_01.jpg)
P-39L-1, 298 IAP, Kuban, Korenovskaya airfield, April 1943

My personal vote if I go to build Pokryshkin's "100"? After all that discussions posted in this thread I vote for "100" with the same appearance as "13". Although I would like to see it more colorfull - with red spinner and tail tip and victory stars ;) And may be with blue circles under the stars.

Regards,
     66misos


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on January 03, 2013, 11:19:51 AM
Hi,

I found a short COLOR video "featuring" P-39 in VVS on Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeFlN7TS3Vk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeFlN7TS3Vk)

I made several screenshots from that video:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/PictGroup01.jpg)
Here are some notes:
Pict 1 - nose vents on the both fuselage sides are visible - applicable from P-39K version,
Pict 1+6  -37mm cannon without cover,
Pict 2 - big repainted (darker) area below and behind exhaust pipes,
Pict 2+3 - original US star on the right under wing repainted - see glossy area,
Pict 4+5+6 - old "balloon type" front landing gear, appliable until P-39K. P-39L and latter had tire of thinner profile,
Pict 4+5+6 - grey propeller blades without logo and stencils - could be Aeroproducts propeller,
Pict 5 - red star without white outline on the fuselage and without original blue or white circle,
Pict 5+6 - external 75 gallons fuel tank under the central fuselage,
Pict 5+3 - short 5-digits serial number, something like 24??0 or 24??8 - applicable for series from P-39K-1 (S/N: 24244) to P-39N (S/N: 24999).

All that together point most probably on early P-39K-1.

And here is another "early" P-39 with red star without white outline on the fuselage:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/P-39.png)
Original blue or white circle is repainted - see more rounded pentagon than circle under the red star. Red star is quite glossy in comparison with Matt Olive Drab.
Note old "balloon type" front landing gear of P-39 standing behind.

Both pictures again show early P-39s with "boring" camouflage of that days (1943) - original Olive Drab + Medium Grey plus red stars without blue/white circles. Nothing like colorfull, personalized and highly decorated P-39Qs from 1945.

Regards,
     66misos


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on January 09, 2013, 06:37:44 PM
Hi,

I have a new book - Bell P-39 Airacobra from AJ Press. There is a lot of interesting info. I tried to put them into table(s) and combine them with other info already posted in this thread or found on Internet in the meantime.

This table shows dates when particular (main) version (e.i. D,K,N...) and subversions (D-1, D-2, K-1, N-0,...) were produced. Data are from the book above.
Based on that I calculated average quantity of particular version per month.
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/130109_TABLE2b.jpg)
Real numbers most probably differed from month to month, but it is good enough for general feeling.

This table shows estimated dates of production for particular Serial Numbers based on the average values from table above.
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/130109_TABLE1b.jpg)
Several very interesting outcomes appears:

1.) Time from Production to arrival to 16th GIAP took several months -cca 1 year at the beginning, 5-6 months latter.

2.) First P-39D and P-39K were not new planes, most probably reused ones.

4.) Red stars with white outline could appear on some P-39N-5 earliest if technical personnel was fast enough.
     However here are examples when even latter versions had red stars with old black outline:

     (http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/P-39Q_airacobra_16b.jpg)
     P-39Q-10   S/N: 220561 (42-20561), produced sometimes in Aug 1943.
No white star is visible on the fuselage, e.g. there could be VVS red star. Something like red star is visible on the left underwing. If it is correct, then plane delivered to VVS sometime in 1944 still has stars of old type.

     (http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/P-39_30.jpg)
     P-39Q-5    S/N: 220136 (42-20136), produced sometimes on July 1943, e.g. delivered do VVS sometimes in Dec 1943 and still has stars of old type

5.) (http://www.edcoatescollection.com/ac6/Bell%20P-39Q.jpg)
     P-39Q-1-BE    S/N: 219483 (42-19483), produced sometimes on May 1943 - wearing old USAAF insignias,

USAAF introduced new insignias - White rectangle or bar was added on each side of the blue circle with a red border surrounding the entire insignia on June 29, 1943 and updated on Aug. 14, 1943 - red border was replaced with blue one.

6.) (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3a/P-39N.jpg)
     P-39Q-1BE    S/N: 219447 (42-19447), produced sometimes on May 1943, but here photographed on July 1943 and already waring new USAAF insignias (red outline),

7.) (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/25/51st_Fighter_Squadron_Bell_P-39Q-5-BE_Airacobra_42-20397.jpg/800px-51st_Fighter_Squadron_Bell_P-39Q-5-BE_Airacobra_42-20397.jpg)
     P-39Q-5-BE   S/N: 220397 (42-20397), produced sometimes on August 1943 and already wearing new USAAF insignias.

P-39s delivered to VVS via L-L program had several types of national marking:
a.) "Buffalo" version - red stars in white circles (either new one or repainted before-or-after-July-1943-USAAF-marking),
b.) original old USAAF national marking - white star in blue circles for P-39s produced/shipped until July 1943 - applicable for P-39 versions up to Q-1
c.) original new USAAF national marking - white star in blue circles with white bar on sides with red/blue outline for P-39s produced/shipped after July 1943 - applicable for P-39 versions Q-5 and latter.
d.) original RAF marking.

Finally there is an outcome no. 8 - several possibilities of national insignias:
- Scenario 1 - P-39 of all versions - Red stars in white circles - white circles are not repainted - well known Suchov's "50",

- Scenario 2 - P-39 of all versions - Red stars in white circles - white circles are repainted Olive Drab or some Russian green,

- Scenario 3 - P-39 versions from D-2 to Q-1 - Original old USAAF insignias - white stars in blue circles - not repainted:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/Rechkalov_P-39.jpg)   (http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/P-39_07-kridlosoznakom-zfilmuoPokryskinovi.jpg)
Rechkalov's P-39N-0 s/n 42-8747


- Scenario 4 - P-39 versions from D-2 to Q-1 - Original old USAAF insignias - white stars in blue circles - blue circles is repainted Olive Drab or some Russian green,

- Scenario 5 - P-39Q-5 and latter - Original new USAAF insignias - white star in blue circles with white bar on sides with red/blue outline. I have not seen a photo showing repainted only white bars on sides of blue circle while circle leaving blue. It always looks like original insignias overpainted completely with OD or some Russian green:
(http://www.redbanner.co.uk/History/ace_aircraft/rechkalov/RGA-fus.jpg)
Rechaklov's P-39Q-15 s/n 44-2547


If Scenario 5 is correct and reflects usual approach of the VVS technicians (not to complicate thing if not necessary) then a lot of late P-39s (versions Q-10,15,20...) profiles is incorrect. They should show planes with new USAAF insignias completely repainted (or at least side bars) with OD or some Russian green. But they should not show old USAAF insignias (blue circles) on P-39s produced after July/August 1943.

Regards,
     66Miss


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on January 09, 2013, 06:47:51 PM
Hi Misos,
is there photographic evidence of P-39s with repainted side bars?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: AC26 on January 09, 2013, 06:58:49 PM
is there photographic evidence of P-39s with repainted side bars?
Hello Massimo,

Hyryl? P-39Q-15 "26" has them overpainted.

Cheers,

AaCee


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on January 09, 2013, 07:53:08 PM
Hi Massimo,
I do not know about photo showing overpainted only side bars. I do not know about such evidence.

Hi AaCee,
that P-39 from Hyryia looks like one of Scenarios described in my previous post - original new USAAF insignia (e.g. with side bars) repainted still in US to "Buffalo" style (e.g. Red star in white circle) and latter repainted in VVS (unknown Russian greenish paint) to look like 1944 and latter standard soviet insignia.

regards,
    66misos



Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: AC26 on January 09, 2013, 09:58:21 PM
that P-39 from Hyryia looks like one of Scenarios described in my previous post - original new USAAF insignia (e.g. with side bars) repainted still in US to "Buffalo" style (e.g. Red star in white circle) and latter repainted in VVS (unknown Russian greenish paint) to look like 1944 and latter standard soviet insignia.
Hi Misos,

Exactly like this. On the fuselage white circles it might well be the standard Soviet dark green camouflage colour. Undersurfaces are lighter greyish green.

Cheers,

AaCee


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on January 10, 2013, 09:57:04 AM
Hi,

I just repaired links to photos. There were typos after spellchecker - changes applied by a mistake  :(

Regards,
     66misos


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on January 28, 2013, 01:41:35 PM
Hi,

here is the fourth plane flown (or could be flown) by Pokryshkin - P-39N-5, serial no. 219158, board no. "100" from winter 1943 (Александр Иванович Покрышкин?, П-39H-5 "Аэрокобра", серийный номер 42-19158 (219158), бортовой номер ?100?, зима 1943):
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/130125BellP-39N-5_Pokryshkinno100_v01b.jpg)

However, this profile is quite hypothetical, there is no known direct evidence about it. So this profile is based on the indirect info and analogies.

I have info about this P-39 from Igor Zlobin. When I asked him via email where he has info about S/N: 219158 from, he replied:
?Information about this number (e.g. S/N: 219158) is from historian Levchenko. He refers to the order he found in the archives and according to which aircraft technician Chuvashkin, was awarded. As it is known Chuvashkin maintained Pokryshkin?s planes throughout the war. Order for awarding is for time period autumn 1943. I have no other information.?
Unfortunately I did not find any info about it in Tabachenko's book.

Other P-39N-5 with similar serial numbers (218691, 219052 and 219098) arrived to 16th GIAP on the end of September 1943.
Red star with white & red outline since 3-Sep-1943 (Order NKO no.267).
Red propeller spinner & red tail tip in 16th GIAP since autumn 1943.

Red stars positions are based on these photos:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/P-39_Mix01.jpg)
and
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/P-39_Mix02.jpg)
We can see that there were no "transport marking" e.g. red stars in white circles on upperwing. Even existing USAAF marking were painted out. So at least during some time period Bell or someone else in US payed attention to carefully painted out standard USAAF stars.

These photos shows red stars on the upperwing:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/P-39_Mix04.jpg)

(http://airaces.narod.ru/all2/babak6.jpg)

Red spinner and red tail tip with thin white stripe is based on this photo:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/Pokryshkin21_1001943_02.jpg)
Of course, there in no visible number on that plane and also red star on the fuselage is missing on the typical position - rough retouch ???
On the other side, it is "some" P-39 with Pokryshkin in winter, grey of the propeller spinner is different from the grey of the fuselage (red vs. OD) and there is a thin white strip on the tail tip (green arrows). Also ruder hinge is visible (blue arrow) while no serial no. is visible. Again, retouch? I do not know.

But there is (almost) nothing easy and clear with VVS camo & marking. Here are examples showing "different approach" than described above:
1.) Rough USAF stars repainting:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/P-39_Mix03.jpg)

2.) "old type" star on even newer P-39Q-5, S/N: 220136:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/P-39_30.jpg)

3.) missing divisional symbols - this plane belongs to Dmitri Glinka from 100 GvIAP, note that the regiment belongs to 9th GvIAD and was supposed to have the symbol on the tail and spinner, but it had not:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/GlinkaDmitriyBorisovich_Kuban1943_v04.jpg)

Regards,
     66misos



Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on February 01, 2013, 12:28:46 PM
Hi,
here are some photos helping answer the question whether red tail tip on (Pokryshkin's) P-39N-5, serial no. 219158, (board no. "100") was with or without thin white trim. Of course following photos do not show this particular aircraft but prove that white trim was not so exceptional in 16GIAP:

1.) Pokryshkin in front of unknown P-39, probably just before the flight on "his" Cobra. As usuall in such cases, no number helping identify his plane is visible ( retouched ?):
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/Pokryshkin21_1001943_02.jpg)

2.) Rechkalov's P-39 when photographed with Pokryshkin in:
(http://www.redbanner.co.uk/History/ace_aircraft/rechkalov/Rechk-42547-tail.jpg)

3.) Pokryshkin, B.B.Glinka (shot down on 14-Jul-1944, did not fly anymore), Rechkalov, Klubov (died on 1-Nov-1944 in La-7 accident) and some others:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/Rechkalov_P-39_08.jpg)

4.) Klubov's P-39:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/klubov4_zps1020ddf5.jpg)

5.) Suchov's P-39 flown by Pokryshkin during "highway exercise":
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/P-39_59Suchov_zps2217ebf1.jpg)

6.) unknown P-39 (version N or earlier - see wing guns) from document movie about Pokryshkin:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/P-39_58b_zps13d1a724.jpg)

Based on the photos above I would say that if there was a red tail tip then there was also thin white trim on P-39s in 16GIAP.

And based on the photos above and the following photo (photographed in USA, e.g. no reason for red tail tip):
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/P-39Q-20_zpsb01dd17d.jpg)

I would also say that P-39 S/N: 29004 (42-9004), board number ?100? is without red tail tip on this photo:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/Pokryshkin14h_P-39no100-1.jpg)
It is (most probably) only a light reflection, same as on the US P-39 on the photo above, also with the dark fuzzy trim - panel line.

Regards,
     66misos





Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on February 02, 2013, 07:04:30 AM
Hi Misos, hi all,

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/P-39_59Suchov_zps2217ebf1.jpg)
Nice image. Any considerations about the camouflage?

Quote
http://And based on the photos above and the following photo (photographed in USA, e.g. no reason for red tail tip):
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/P-39Q-20_zpsb01dd17d.jpg)
Is this confirmed by other photos? The light seems too sharp, and it's not a fabric-covered part where it could be caused by an internal strut. Maybe the plane had a colored tip anyway?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on February 04, 2013, 10:45:05 AM
Hi Massimo,
let me answer your questions:

Quote
Is this confirmed by other photos? The light seems too sharp, and it's not a fabric-covered part where it could be caused by an internal strut. Maybe the plane had a colored tip anyway?

Here are some photos showing tail tip of a slightly different color than the rest of the tail - regardless date and region. It seems to be a matter of light reflection:

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/P-39_61_zps5e8a978d.jpg)

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3a/P-39N.jpg)

(http://dmn.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/P-39s-P-400s_over_Australia_in_early_1942.jpg)

(http://www.airvectors.net/avp39_05.jpg)

Photos in my post above about red tail tip show that if there was a red tail tip then (most probably) also thin white trim was there. And there is no white trim on this picture:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/Pokryshkin14h_P-39no100-1.jpg)
Moreover, red tail tip was introduced after red stars with white+red outline. And there are no red stars with white+red outline visible on this picture (white is here quite apparent).


Regards,
     66misos


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on February 11, 2013, 10:31:21 PM
Hi Misos and KL,
I've moved the discussion on Suchov's plane and the last posts on AMT-4 to another topic.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on February 16, 2013, 04:28:37 PM
Hi,
I would like to add couple of thoughts about question - were red stars on the upper wings or not? - based on info and photos found mainly on internet. Any info correcting or confirming that is more than welcome.

I do not have exact statistics about exact number of P-39 produced from the first moment for VVS vs. modified/repainted P-39 produced for USAF and subsequently delivered to VVS. Here are some interesting points from scalemodels.ru at http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_17216.html (http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_17216.html):

Why there is such confidence that USAF marking on P-39s were repainted in Soviet Union? On Airforce.ru there is a photo photo machine, which did not leave United States and there is clearly seen that USAF marking was repainted several times, according to the several times changed USAF rules http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/photogallery/p-39_fairbanks/index.htm (http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/photogallery/p-39_fairbanks/index.htm)
In my opinion, discussions about Soviet national marking painted in the VVS units with "what found on the shelf" are the same legends as "tractor green". This is true only for British Hurricanes and Hempdens in the North, delivered to SU by completely other ways, not within the lend-lease. And then, together with the planes were delivered such things like "ЗИП" (ZIP?), which includes also a "native" paint.

   vs.
Paints were not included in ZIP and they painted with what they had.

I think there could be considered several scenarios:

Scenario 1 ? P-39s coming to SU with ?Bell? transport marking ? red stars in white circles:
- new P-39s - red stars in white circles painted already in the factory ? on both under wings and fuselage, and no upper wings, or
- Repainted existing USAF stars ? red stars in white circles carefully painted over original USAF national marking on left&right underwings and fuselage and USAF nat. marking overpainted with Olive Drab on upperwings.
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/P-39_Mix01.jpg)
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/P-39_Mix02.jpg)

1.1.  White circles kept and no red stars added to upper wings (e.g. Sukhov's P-39):
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/P-39_59Suchov_zps2217ebf1.jpg)

or

1.2. Standard Soviet red stars were painted on the upperwing without visible darker (green or blue) circle bellow:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/P-39_Mix04.jpg)
(http://airaces.narod.ru/all2/babak6.jpg)

Scenario 2 ? standard USAF national marking:
overpainted either in USA or in CCCP:

2.1. Red stars painted in blue circles and additional red star painted on right upperwing and left underwing, while blue circles overpainted with paints available at that moment ? if in Abadan then probably most often with OD delivered together with the planes. If not available, then (either British or) Russian paints. In already in individual IAP/GIAP then most probably with available Russian paints:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/P-39_30.jpg)

2.2. Red stars painted in blue circles and additional red star painted on right upperwing and left underwing, while blue circles kept:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/Rechkalov_P-39.jpg)

The question is whether those dark circles are really original blue circles or those dark circles are fresh careful green overpaintings. Soviet "field" overpaintings are known more by its usually rough way http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1367.msg10588#msg10588 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1367.msg10588#msg10588)

Although VVS is military organization and everything is/should be done by order (defining what, when and how has to be done), photos in this post and basically in all thread show a wide variability in such orders implementation.
Again, basically everything seems to be possible unless photo of the particular plane does not clearly show/prove something ???

Regards,
     66misos


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on February 25, 2013, 03:57:18 PM
Hi,
here are quotations from Sukhov's book "Eskadrilja vedet boj" about Pokryshkin:

1st August 1943
Pokryshkin?s P-39 S/N: 29004 damaged by Il-2
and written off.

5th August 1943
В"ылетаем шестеркой. В паре с Александром Ивановичем идет Жора Голубев. Во второй паре ? лейтенант Александр Клубов и старший лейтенант Александр Самсонов. Я иду ведомым у младшего лейтенанта Виктора Жердева.
? Я ? Сотый! Разворот влево сто двадцать?
Переключаюсь на передачу, кричу:
? Сотый! Бомберы?"

We fly in six. Golubev in pair with Pokryshkin, 2nd pair Klubov and Samsonov, I (Sukhov) fly with Zherdev.
- Here is Hundredth, turn left 120...
I am switching radio to reply and shouting:
- Hundredth! Bombers..

13th August 1943
"Вылетаем четверкой, ? поясняет Александр Иванович... мы с Голубевым будем на высоте девять тысяч метров; Жердев.и Сухов ? на тысячу метров выше нас и на километр в стороне?
?Сотка? тем временем, выполнив разворот, идет уже параллельным ?юнкерсу? курсом?"

- We fly in six, - explains Alexander Ivanovich (Pokryshkin)... me and Golubev will be on altitude 9000...
?Hundred? finishing turn goes towards the Junkers...

21st August 1943
взлетаем?Впереди хорошо вижу ?сотку? Покрышкина.
we take off... I clearly see Pokryshkin?s ?100? in the front...

Жердев четко увидел на его борту цифру ?100?. Что такое? Командир ? без прикрытия! А где же ведомый?..
Zherdev clearly saw number ?100? on his plane - Commander without covering? Where is his wingman? 
Боевой порядок ? ?этажерка?, одна четверка ? ударная, вторая ? прикрытие. Ведет группу Александр Иванович Покрышкин.
Flying formation ? ?etazherka?, the first four planes attacking, the second four planes covering. Group is leading by Pokryshkin.

2nd September 1943
вылетела наша шестерка. Мы с Жердевым ? во второй паре. Ведущий ? Александр Иванович Покрышкин.
Our six took off. Me (Sukhov) with Zherdev in the second pair. Leader ? Pokryshkin.

20th September 1943
подошли к реке Молочной. Вот она, пресловутая линия ?Вотан?!  ? Прошло еще несколько дней??Сотка? зарулила на стоянку, двигатель затих. Открылась дверца, Александр Иванович ступил на крыло?
we advanced to the river Molochnoy ? well known line ?Votan?... Several day gone. ?Hundred? taxied to the parking lot, engine stopped. Door (on the plane) opens, Alexander Ivanovich (Pokryshkin) steps on the wing...


And here Tabachenko quotes from Pokryshkin?s book ?Познать себя в бою" ("Poznat seba v boju?):

Февраль 1945...Вылетаю парой на боевых самолетах... Под нами Аслау... Связываюсь по радио с передовой командой, слышу: Сотый, грунтовая полоса раскисла, непригодная для посадки...
February 1945 ... I (e.g. Pokryshkin) fly in a pair of fighter planes... Aslan below us... I communicate via radio with the front (advanced) command, I hear - Hundredth, landing strip is not suitable for landing...

Просто военные кинооператоры снимали прославленного авиационного полковника - комдива на фоне именно этого самолета (видимо, хотели показать в кадре множество звезд - отметок о воздушных побeдах)... Но на этой машине только иногда летал Алекцандр Покрышкин (но праву комдива все самолеты авиасоединения - его), а Григирий Речкалов как полновластный хозяин самолета, на нем не только успешно воевал, но и закончил воину.
Simply war cameramen filmed famous airforce colonel - division commander - in this plane (apparently they wanted to show a lot of little stars - symbols of victories)... But Alexandr Pokryshkin flew on this plane only occasionally (all planes in the unit "belongs" to division commander), and Grigorij Rechkalov as absolute master(?) of this aircraft, not only successfully fought on it, but also finished the war.

If all that is true, IMHO it shows:
1.) Pokryshkin had another P-39 "100" after his P-39 "100" S/N: 29004 was written off. But what S/N? 42-19158?
2.) Pokryshkin had ho victory stars on his P-39.

Regards,
     66misos


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on February 28, 2013, 01:22:04 AM
Hi,

I wrote at http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1367.msg11014#msg11014 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1367.msg11014#msg11014) on January 28:
 
  ?...Information about this number (e.g. S/N: 219158) is from historian Levchenko. He refers to the order he found in the archives and according to which aircraft technician Chuvashkin, was awarded. As it is known Chuvashkin maintained Pokryshkin?s planes throughout the war. Order for awarding is for time period autumn 1943. I have no other information.?
Unfortunately I did not find any info about it in Tabachenko's book.

I browsed again in Tabachenko's book looking for info about Sukhov and I found this (pg. 252) - Grigory Chuvashkin, technician of Pokryshkin's plane, was awarded on November 6, 1943, because he successfully prepared plane for 158 flights, while, as written in the 16GIAP documents, "pilot on the plane "Aircobra" which was maintained by Chuvashkin shot down 16 enemy planes, while 5 of them were shot down during the battle of Melitopol.

Pokryshkin's P-39 S/N: 219158 seems to be more and more real.

regards,
     66misos


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on May 03, 2013, 04:06:41 PM
Hi,

I found this in the book "Triumf a tragedie. Sovietsti stihaci letci v bojich II. svetove valky." (Triumph and tragedy. Soviet fighter pilots during WWII.), authors Milos Sedivy a Valerij Dymich:

"No machine Bell P-39 did not survive in Russia. Even A.I. Pokryshkin's popular "Sotka", which was damaged during a training flight in 1947 and ended in soviet melting furnace."

Interesting info. One "Sotka" was damaged in summer 1943 by Il-2 during landing. Another "Sotka" survived WWII and was damaged and destroyed latter.

Regards,
    66misos


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on August 23, 2013, 09:43:21 AM
Hi,

I found today at http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_p_903692.html#903692 (http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_p_903692.html#903692) link to the interesting photo of Pokryshkin standing on the P-39 with 30 victory marks:

(http://f3.s.qip.ru/19yBhsOL4.jpg)

Accorging to http://www.airaces.narod.ru/all1/pokrish1.htm (http://www.airaces.narod.ru/all1/pokrish1.htm)
- Pokryshkin was awarded the 1st HSU on 24-May-1943,
- Pokryshkin achieved 30 victories on 23-Aug-1943.

Could anybody identify Pokryshkin's military rank on this photo? According to the http://www.militaryimages.net/photopost/army/p9220-russian-army-ranks-ww2.html (http://www.militaryimages.net/photopost/army/p9220-russian-army-ranks-ww2.html) it looks like Captian. He was  promoted to Major in June 1943.

Unfortunately (again) neither serial number nor board number is visible.
Victory stars - first 6 on top line seems to be fully painted, the rest seems to be only white stencils sprayed over mask.
Red star without darker (blue or green) circle background is visible on the left upperwing. Not sure whether I see there also white outline (introduced on 3-Sep-1943 by Order NKO no.267)
Vents on the nose fuselage show on version K or latter.
Propeller spinner seems to be brighter (red?) than fuselage, blades seems to be silver/grey, not black, 30mm cannon with cover.

I am curious about discussion on scalemodels.ru about this photo.

Regards,
    66misos


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on August 23, 2013, 10:12:45 AM
Hi Misos,
it's captain: two horizontally-aligned stars, two vertically aligned ones, and the winged prop.
Very clean photo.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: Dark Green Man on August 23, 2013, 03:39:49 PM
those vents on the nose make it an M N or Q
off the top of my head I can't recall how many M's were received by the soviets,
but they got a lot of N's and Q's


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: learstang on August 23, 2013, 06:21:43 PM
Interesting.  It looks like the port .50 calibre gun has a blast tube (I would suspect that the starboard gun had one as well).  Were these present when the 37mm cannon had the blast tube?

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on October 07, 2013, 12:19:01 PM
Hi,
here are some points from discussion at http://vif2ne.ru/nvi/forum/0/0.htm (http://vif2ne.ru/nvi/forum/0/0.htm) from Aug 19-20, and 21-30, 2013 about the photo above. All 3 pictures bellow were posted by Igor Zlobin at that forum.

When photographed?
Photo was published on June 5, 1943 in the central VVS newspaper ?Stalin's Falcons?. Text under the photo stated that there is Pokryshkin on the Cobra with 31 (25+6) victories in three rows of ten stars + 1 star below, all located between the nose and the cockpit,
vs.
according to the other sources Pokryshkin won his 30th victory on May 14 and 31st victory on May 29, 1943. And on May 31, 1943 he already had officially 32 (26+6) victories.

What plane?
Either P-39M, or one of the six P-39N-0/N-1 (S/N: 29004 included) that arrived to 16GIAP on May 15, 1943.

(http://vif2ne.ru/nvi/forum/files/Igor78/(130823194358)_100.jpg)

(http://vif2ne.ru/nvi/forum/files/Igor78/(130827050106)_b774jzfm_kopiya.jpg)

(http://vif2ne.ru/nvi/forum/files/Igor78/(130827192632)_009.jpg)

IgorZ: When comparing photos of P-39 with Pokryshkin and P-39 ?100?:
 - propeller blades are in the same position,
 - the window glass of left door is missing (open).
 - tip of the tree or shrub is visible through the back canopy glass on photo of P-39 with Pokryshkin is tip of the bushes or young trees masking the right wing visible on the photo of P-39 ?100?.
Both photos were made during one photo session and show the same plane.

ValeryR: I do not argue that it is the same plane (I'm leaning toward the 90% probability), but:
 - photo of P-39 with Pokryshkin ? plane is perfectly clean (brand new) with no exhaust stains,
 - photo of P-39 "100" ? evident exhaust stains behind the third exhaust pipe,
                                 ? branches with leaves, which are not at the photo of P-39 with Pokryshkin,
                                 ? total number of wins is not visible here. Picture made probably before the end of June.
The images vary in time, place and photographer.

Regards,
     66misos


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on October 08, 2013, 01:37:04 PM
Hi Misos,
the angulation of the propeller isn't exactly the same. The shadows of the exhaust pipes are slightly different. Probably it's the same plane, but not in the same time.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on November 06, 2013, 09:47:35 AM
Hi,
here are profiles based on photos above:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/131106BellP-39N-0_Pokryshkinno100repaired_v05_zpsb6a45fbf.jpg)
Upper profile shows probably Pokryshkin's plane (see my post from October 07, 2013) how it looked at the end of May 1943.
Bottom profile shows the same plane how it could look at the end of July 1943.

There is interesting coincidence with this photo:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/Pokryshkin14h_P-39no100-1.jpg)
where six apparent blotches are visible exactly where one would expect six red-white outlined victory stars. White stencils style stars are not so apparent, but some blotches are also visible. ???

Regards,
    66misos


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: KL on November 07, 2013, 08:49:27 AM
Hi Misos,
IMHO, Zlobin's proposal is more credible - both photos were taken at the end of May 1943.

Photo of the plane with its nose raised is obviously retouched:  wheels are "enhanced", white reflections are added on tailfin leading edge, on cockpit canopy and on exhausts.  Stain behind exhausts could be a retouch too.

It looks to me that victory stars are not outlined in white; more likely they are yellow.  Victory stars shouldn't be confused with VVS markings which never had yellow outline.

Anyway, at the end, thanks to this new photo, your proposal that Poroshkin's Airacobra No "100" had victory stars turned out to be true.   :)

Cheers,
KL


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 07, 2013, 10:03:02 AM
Hi Misos,
any update for your web page?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on November 07, 2013, 11:32:39 AM
Hi KL and Massimo,

thank your replies. :)
I posted it also at scalemodels.ru. I am curious also for russian guys standpoints.
Massimo, I will wait couple of days and then I will summarize it and we can update mig3 pages.

Regards,
     66misos


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: Flavio on November 23, 2013, 03:45:01 PM
Dear all,

I am a new member and this is my first post on the board.

First of all I want to congratulate with 66misos for the excellent work and researches he made on Pokryshkin?s P-39s.

Here my little contribution to the work hoping this can help.

Surfing the net, I came across this photo. Although the low resolution, it seems that the last digit of the serial number is ?4? (the last three digits might be ?004?). According to Pokryshkin?s rank and medals the photo was probably taken in May ?43, so it is very likely that this plane is P-39N-0 ?42-9004?.

Note the white circle on P-39?s cockpit door (visible just above Pokryshkin?s cap); it is a very common detail, seen several time on P-39s, even if up to now I am not able to understand what it exactly is. Unfortunately this circle is not visible on the famous photo of P-39 ?42-9004?.

Regards

Flavio

(http://i1054.photobucket.com/albums/s499/Flaviosil/Pokryshking.jpg)


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: KL on November 23, 2013, 07:17:27 PM
Surfing the net, I came across this photo. Although the low resolution, it seems that the last digit of the serial number is ?4? (the last three digits might be ?004?). According to Pokryshkin?s rank and medals the photo was probably taken in May ?43, so it is very likely that this plane is P-39N-0 ?42-9004?.

Note the white circle on P-39?s cockpit door (visible just above Pokryshkin?s cap); it is a very common detail, seen several time on P-39s, even if up to now I am not able to understand what it exactly is. Unfortunately this circle is not visible on the famous photo of P-39 ?42-9004?.

(http://i1054.photobucket.com/albums/s499/Flaviosil/Pokryshking.jpg)

Excellent find Flavio!
I believe the white circle is a formation light cover.  Those door formation lights were typical for Airacobras made for the British RAF, USAAF P-39 didn't have them.  This is definitively a 1942 made Airakobra, close to model L below:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/01/P39_Nome_Alaska_LOC_fsa_8e02409.jpg)

It is quite possible that this is 42-9004 - Pokrishkin's uniform and medals are the same as on the recently posted photo.

(http://f3.s.qip.ru/19yBhsOL4.jpg)


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on November 24, 2013, 02:25:21 PM
Hi Flavio,

thank you very much for a really interesting photo. And, of course, for your comment :)
I posted question at Russian military-history forum http://vif2ne.ru/nvi/forum/0/0.htm  (http://vif2ne.ru/nvi/forum/0/0.htm) and here are some points:
  1.) it really seems to be Pokryshkin's P-39 "100" 29004,
  2.) white dot on the door is the mark of the center of gravity, there is a crosshair and the inscription "CG origin".

Here is enlarged detail from your photo together with other Cobras:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/Pokryshkin36_zps90c82b5f.jpg)
White dot is also there, and also on many others.
Serial number of Pokryshkin's P-39 seems to be (again) retouched - compare it with those two others.

regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: KL on November 24, 2013, 08:04:21 PM
I checked about those British navigation lights - those were behind the cockpit doors.   :-X

Still, CG at the wing leading edge?  Supposedly P-39s engine was at the CG...  ???  Engineers may explain this...

Regards,
KL 


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: Flavio on November 24, 2013, 10:25:03 PM
Thank you 66misos,

for the explanation of the white dot.

The photo I posted and that one with 30 kill markings, were taken at the end of May '43, probably on (or soon after) 24 May when Pokryshkin was awarded of title of Hero of the Soviet Union (his first time) and of Order of Lenin (his second). However I read with attention all the topic, and if I well understand, at that time Pokryshkin's personal plane was still P-39K-2 42-4421. P-39N 42-9004, even if already assigned at 16th GIAP, was choose only after 20 June '43. At this time he was promoted Major and looked like in this photo:
(http://i1054.photobucket.com/albums/s499/Flaviosil/Pokryshkink.gif)

Unfortunately, I don't have the book by Tabachenko; probaly you can find when Pokryshkin started to use 42-9004, and when he flew for the last time 42-4421.

Flavio


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on December 11, 2013, 01:32:10 PM
Hi
2.) white dot on the door is the mark of the center of gravity, there is a crosshair and the inscription "CG origin".

Still, CG at the wing leading edge?  Supposedly P-39s engine was at the CG...  ???  Engineers may explain this...

Here is picture showing that white "dot" in detail:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/P-39CenterofGravitymark01_zps71b5ea23.png)

Regards,
    66misos


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: Flavio on December 11, 2013, 06:07:26 PM
Thank you 66misos
Flavio


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on January 17, 2014, 12:57:46 PM
Hi,
working on new P-39 template I reworked Pokryshkin's "100" as the first one. After looking at more and more photos and comparing them I decided to change also the color of the propeller blades from black to grey.
This plane is quite clear, prepared for photosession, shortly after its arrival to the unit.

Regards,
     66misos

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/140117BellP-39N-0_Pokryshkinno100new_01b_zpsa4bb87d3.jpg)

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/Aeroproducts03b_zpse651cc25.jpg)


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on January 17, 2014, 01:03:55 PM
Hi Misos,
excellent work indeed. The beige background is nice too.
I think that some details should be visible through the glazing, as the gunsight and, perhaps, the radio box.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on January 17, 2014, 01:53:40 PM
Hi Massimo,

thanx for comment. It is there in PSD, I just forgot that layer hidden :(
I already linked corrected picture in my post above. Gunsight etc. is there, but there was not big radio box in the back of canopy, check this picture:
(http://f3.s.qip.ru/19yBhsOL4.jpg)

Regards,
    66misos


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: Flavio on January 17, 2014, 02:58:06 PM
... but there was not big radio box in the back of canopy, check this picture:

Dear 66misos,

your profile is very well done.
Please note that the black device behind the cockpit was not the radio box but the landing gear warning horn (similar to a semi-sphere); look the photos from internet.
Flavio
(http://i1054.photobucket.com/albums/s499/Flaviosil/Horn1.jpg)
(http://i1054.photobucket.com/albums/s499/Flaviosil/Horn2.jpg)


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on January 17, 2014, 03:44:58 PM
Hi Flavio,

thanx for clarification and excellent photos. I updated my picture above accordingly.

Regards,
    66misos


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: KL on January 17, 2014, 07:18:26 PM
Hi Misos,
excellent profile!  IMHO, your new OD is more convincing then one before (more brownish than green).

two photos of Pokrishin's "100" were most likely staged; Russian historians agree that all 30 victory stars were painted at once.  But, that was it - so you should add exhaust staining to your profile. Some grime, wear and tear would make profile more realistic too.
IMHO, nose cannon shroud/protective pipe was wider than on your profile. Maybe..  ???

Cheers,
KL


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on January 18, 2014, 08:37:13 AM
Hi KL,
thanx for comment. Yes, there should be protecting pipe on the nose cannon and also on the wing guns. They all have exposed gun barrels on my profile.
I do not know whether to add there also bomb/fuel tank pylon on the bottom fuselage or not.
Plane was quite clean at this moment-mid May. It just arrived to unit, victory stars were painted all at once. Pokryshkin used another plane that time. I will made another profile how it could look several months latter, at the end of July.

regards,
     66misos


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: Graham Boak on January 19, 2014, 12:03:12 AM
The centre of gravity is variable and will be close to the quarter-chord line of the wing. but somewhat forward.   I suspect that what we are seeing is a reference point, from which the cg can be located at different load conditions.


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on January 20, 2014, 09:29:19 AM
Hi,

here are updates profiles - nose cannon and wing guns have covering/protective pipes and some dirty was added:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/140122BellP-39N-0_Pokryshkinno100-May_zpsd4144e0c.jpg)

This is profile how it could look at the end of July, when the plane was 2 months older and more "used" - dirty, weathering and exhaust stains were added. Olive Drab is a bit more brownish. Pokryshkin had 6 more victories that time, so additional 6 victories could be painted. However, there is no publicly known photo clearly showing this plane with 36 victory stars. For more see http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1367.msg13325#msg13325 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1367.msg13325#msg13325)
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/140122BellP-39N-0_Pokryshkinno100-July_zpsee2a6744.jpg)

Regards,
     66misos


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on January 20, 2014, 03:46:31 PM
Hi Misos,
I like this work very much.
About victory starlets: is the most of them empty inside the white outline, or painted with a darker shade of red?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on January 20, 2014, 05:19:07 PM
Hi Massimo,

IMHO they firstly sprayed or brushed 30 white stencil-like outlined victory stars over the mask (white line is not solid but interrupted) and then first 6 stars repainted - red inside and solid white outline. That could be reason why those first 6 stars are significantly more apparent than rest 24 white stencil-like outlined victory stars on the another photo.

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/Pokryshkin33c_zps7ab01993.jpg)

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/140120BellP-39N-0_Pokryshkinno100-Mayhviezdicky_zpsc89e69b2.jpg)

Regards,
     66misos


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: KL on January 20, 2014, 06:06:01 PM
Hi Misos,
your first profile is even better now, but the second profile is a guess.  6 additional stars are a guess, there is no proof they have ever been painted.  IMHO, it is better to refrain from guessing because it can compromise good job you did with the first profile.

Exhaust staining is based on the photo showing Pokrishkin's P-39 with its nose propped.  For what I know, this photo hasn't been dated - some, like Zlobin, think that it was taken in May 1943, others think it was taken in July 1943.  So, exhaust staining may have been present in May 1943 when 30 victory stars were painted.  Actually, the staining marks are quite pronounced on that photo:

(http://amyat.narod.ru/memo/pokryshkina_mk/09.jpg)

The centre of gravity is variable and will be close to the quarter-chord line of the wing. but somewhat forward.   I suspect that what we are seeing is a reference point, from which the cg can be located at different load conditions.

Thanks for the explanation Graham.  That's how I remember it - around the quarter-chord line of the wing....   :)

Cheers,
KL


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: Flavio on January 20, 2014, 11:13:31 PM
Hi 66misos,

I agree with KL, the second profile is too much speculative, moreover there are still not enough confirmations that this plane with 30 kill markings  was P-39 ?42-9004?. In my opinion this plane, had 6 kill markings already painted on when the official photo was made, and probably for this reason it was used as background. At this point it is very likely that were added the white border markings to enphasize propaganda purposes. Pokryshkin wasn't in favor of "kill" markings, and if this plane is really "42-9004", when Pokryshkin chose it as personal plane some weeks later, the kill markings, if still there, were probably overpainted or, at best, left there without any other embellishments.

If you want I can suggest you some improvements to your profile in the cockpit area; take as reference a detail of the cockpit of a profile I am working on. You can note the N-3 gun sight with sight head designed by Bell, the internal rear view mirror fixed on the top of the bullet proof glass, the small window on the windscreen...and a Pokryshkin figure...what a shame a plane without pilot! ;D

Flavio

(http://i1054.photobucket.com/albums/s499/Flaviosil/P39cockpit.jpg)


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on January 21, 2014, 10:30:07 AM
Hi,

KL, I agree with you, that "July" profile is speculation, I wrote that 6 stars could be (not "was") painted. Anyhow, I will cancel them from profile.
Regarding exhaust stains - photo of P-39 with its nose propped shows evident exhast stains starting somewhere in mid of exhaust, e.g. somewhere bellow/behind 3rd exhaust pipe.
Photo with Pokryshkin standing on the wing does not show any signs of exhaust stains around 3rd exhaust pipe. It was quite new plane with possibly only several flights in mid May, delivered to SU (Abadan) in wooden crate as was standard via Southern way, not flown like those ones via Northern way. IMHO, those photos were taken in different time.

Flavio, thank you for your advise/help :) I will make new front part of the cockpit using your picture as a reference. It is quite simple, some basic shapes and lines with simple shadows. But to paint the pilot ??? I am not able to do that, it is too far behind my abilities to make it on computer.
You wrote that you work on profile. It looks very very nice. OD paint has some "X" structure, apparent behind the door. Is it hand painted or is it make on computer? I am really curious on it.

Do have anybody, please, better photo of these stencils?
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/Stencils03_zpsb87d9796.png)
They are quite apparent on photos. That brighter one seems to be yellow (or red?) while those two looks black.

Regards,
    66misos


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on January 21, 2014, 01:18:59 PM
Hi Flavio,
it's a very beautiful detail for a profile. How will you publish your work?
Hi Misos,
if you can't paint a pilot, you can look for a photo that can be cutten, colorized and put under the canopy layer to be covered with the glazing reflection. I can try to help you, if you need.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: KL on January 21, 2014, 06:44:09 PM
Regarding exhaust stains - photo of P-39 with its nose propped shows evident exhast stains starting somewhere in mid of exhaust, e.g. somewhere bellow/behind 3rd exhaust pipe.
Photo with Pokryshkin standing on the wing does not show any signs of exhaust stains around 3rd exhaust pipe. It was quite new plane with possibly only several flights in mid May, delivered to SU (Abadan) in wooden crate as was standard via Southern way, not flown like those ones via Northern way. IMHO, those photos were taken in different time.

Zlobin made quite a convincing case to proove that both photos were taken at the same time...
It looks to me that the nose of the plane which is photographed with Pokryshkin standing on its wing is also propped up.

(http://f3.s.qip.ru/19yBhsOL4.jpg)

You should first level the horizon on this photo and then campare Pokrishkin's posture with the posture of this pilot:

(http://ww2db.com/images/air_airacobra4.jpg)

Photo of the P-39 No "100" is heavily retouched:  Exhaust pipes are definitively retouched, staining is probably somewhat "enhanced".

(http://amyat.narod.ru/memo/pokryshkina_mk/09.jpg)

HTH,
KL


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: Flavio on January 21, 2014, 11:14:25 PM
Hi Massimo and 66misos,
 
thank you for your comment.
I enjoy doing my profiles just for fun and I never thought to publish them; moreover I have not a powerful PC so all my work are in low resolution?
Regarding ?pilots?, Massimo exactly describes what I do: I start from a photo and I colorized it. I have not a rule, and doing low resolution profiles helps to hide a lot of details/problems. From my experience the most difficult thing is to find the right photo; in fact it has to be taken at the same level of the pilot (almost all the photos showing pilots seated on the cockpit were taken from below), and it has to be a 100% "side view" photo: the shoulder of the pilot is in the foreground while the front and back of the body are not visible. If you pay attention at these characteristics you can find that very few such photos are available on the net.
 
Please Massimo, can you share with us your technique on colorize the pilots?
 
Flavio


...OD paint has some "X" structure, apparent behind the door. Is it hand painted or is it make on computer? I am really curious on it.


The "X" structure is apparent only, probably made by PC during the creation of the jpg file. Unfortunately I have no information about the stencils...


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on January 22, 2014, 06:26:56 AM
Hi Flavio,
low resolution, you say? Looks good to my eye. How many pixels is each image wide?
About the colorizing technique: I suggest to save the image as .psd file, then add one more layer and set it on 'color': it will give to the image the hue and saturation of your choosen color, but the darkness of the original photo.
Then I paint (with free brush or with masking) the coloured areas on this new layer.
I can switch it on or off during the work to check how the original appears, or can turn it temporarily to 'normal' to see if it is compact enough or pick the color or select an area with the magic wand.
I can also reduce its covering power, while the base layer (the photo) can be altered with 'color balance' to make highlights more orangish and shadows more bluish, a thing that can traspare through the color covering when its opacity is below 100% and gives better the idea of the yellowish sun light.
At the end, I preserve the .psd file for future modifications, but save a copy with one layer with the wanted resolution in .jpg format; this can be published on the web, or inserted into a multilayer profile.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on January 22, 2014, 08:26:35 AM
Hi,

Massimo, Flavio, thanks for offered help and "how to" description. I also thought about coloring real photo, but I never did it before. I will try it in the future. Now I want firstly to make also templates for the top and bottom views.

KL, it is all about opinions whether those 2 photos are from one or two different events, see my post #115 in this thread. Unfortunately there is no hard evidence known to me, could be also as you wrote. From profile point of view it does not matter - 30 victory stars in both cases, the difference seems to be only in level of weathering, fading etc.
I updated both profiles in my Reply #136 above.

Regards,
        66misos



Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: Flavio on January 22, 2014, 09:14:32 PM
low resolution, you say? Looks good to my eye. How many pixels is each image wide?

Hi Massimo,

the resolution of my profiles is the same of that one of detail posted (400 dpi); but usually I work at 300dpi, otherwise the profile becomes too big and the memory of my pc goes in troubles.

Thank you for your suggestion, but if I am correct, psd is the file of Adobe Photoshop...not for my PC :-[

Flavio


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on January 23, 2014, 08:54:50 PM
Hi Flavio, 400 dpi is a good resolution, enough for paper printing. Photos are usually published at 300 dpi.
What is the program you use? Does it allow to use layers?
Hi Misos, you have made a great step in quality, I hope to see your other drawings soon.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: KL on February 07, 2014, 09:19:30 PM
Hi Misos,
back to the photo from the beginning of this thread:

(http://amyat.narod.ru/memo/pokryshkina_mk/09.jpg)

White staining under the exhausts doesn't mean that this Airacobra was more "used" or weathered.
The staining was caused by the Tetra-ethyl-lead that was added to the 100 octane gasoline.  During the combustion lead was oxidised to white (PbCO3)2?Pb(OH)2.

White Lead is the chemical compound (PbCO3)2?Pb(OH)2. It was formerly used as an ingredient for Lead paint and a cosmetic called Venetian Ceruse, because its opaque quality made it a good pigment. White Lead has been the principal white of classical European oil painting. Historically, white Lead was produced by the Dutch process. White Lead occurs naturally as a mineral, in which context it is known as hydrocerussite. It is used in making paint with good external weathering characteristics.

from:  http://www.gravitagroup.com/lead-pigments.asp

Apparently the white lead staining was easy to wash off the planes...

White staining means that Pokrishkin was lucky enough to somehow get 100 octane fuel which not available to other pilots who had to fly on 87 octane gasoline...

HTH,
KL


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: Troy Smith on February 08, 2014, 12:05:52 AM
HI Konstatin

I don't know if Tetra ethyl Lead was just added to 100 octane fuel,  as it is an anti knocking agent which effectively increases the octane rating of a fuel. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetraethyllead

Quote
Antiknock agent[edit]
A gasoline-fueled reciprocating engine requires fuel of sufficient octane rating to prevent uncontrolled combustion known as engine knocking ("knock" or "ping").[6] Antiknock agents allow the use of higher compression ratios for greater efficiency[7] and peak power. Adding varying amounts of TEL to gasoline allowed easy, inexpensive control of octane ratings; aviation spirits used in WWII reached 150 octane to enable supercharged engines such as the Rolls-Royce Merlin and Griffon to produce 1500 HP at altitude.[8] In military aviation, TEL manipulation allowed a range of different fuels to be tailored for particular flight conditions, and ease and safety of handling.
The use of TEL in gasoline started in the US, while in Europe, alcohol was initially used. The advantages of leaded gasoline?its higher energy content and storage quality?eventually led to a universal switch to leaded fuel. One of the greatest advantages of TEL over other antiknock agents or the use of high-octane blend stocks is the very low concentrations needed. Typical formulations called for 1 part of prepared TEL to 1260 parts untreated gasoline. Competing antiknock agents must be used in greater amounts, often reducing the energy content of the gasoline.

and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating

I got to stand a Hurricane one which had just landed, the pilot told me to watch out for the exhaust deposits, which were pale grey brown, and rubbed off very easily.
I think the grey deposits come about more from using the engine at certain power settings, like cruising [like the warbird I saw] , rather than high combat boost settings.

I am in no way an expert, but thought a little background on the staining might be of use.

cheers
T


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on February 08, 2014, 10:54:06 PM
Hi,
they write on Russian forum http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_12_start_420.htm (http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_12_start_420.htm) that "Бензин в Кобре 100-октановый, белый налёт от тетраэтилсвинца... Но обычно мылся после вылета" e.g. Fuel for Cobra was 100 octane, white staining was from Tetra-ethyl-lead... But it was usually cleaned/washed after the flight.

regards,
       66misos


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on March 13, 2014, 05:35:24 PM
Hi,
I just found at http://www.mission4today.com/index.php?name=ForumsPro&file=viewtopic&t=14430&printertopic=1&start=0&finish=-1 (http://www.mission4today.com/index.php?name=ForumsPro&file=viewtopic&t=14430&printertopic=1&start=0&finish=-1) this wider photo of Pokryshkin in front of (his) MiG-3, showing bigger part of the plane:
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/Photos%20Three/Mig-3-pilot-Alexander-Pokryshkin.jpg)


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on March 28, 2014, 09:24:59 AM
Hi,
While browsing Avia Dejavu pages at http://crimso.msk.ru/Site/Crafts/Craft20288-3.htm#pics (http://crimso.msk.ru/Site/Crafts/Craft20288-3.htm#pics) I found this picture:
(http://crimso.msk.ru/Images6/AV/AV13-2/4-1.jpg)
with accompanying text:
The celebrations on the occasion of the opening of A.I. Pokryshkin monument (already the third in the city) held in Novosibirsk on March 2, 2013. Bust by Honored Artist of Russia Alexander Appolonov was established in the area of Novosibirsk College of Metallurgy and Mechanical Engineering of A.I. Pokryshkin (previously trade school where famous pilot studied in 1930-32). The fighter P-39 "Cobra" restored in Novosibirsk was placed next to the bust. A.I. Pokryshkin scored most of his victories on the aircraft of this type.

(http://forum.ngs.ru/preview/forum/upload_files/c4ca4238a0b923820dcc509a6f75849b_1b761608d5128cf974911f5134240c07_136222924246_800px.jpg)

Serial number of that P-39 is very interesting ? it is the same serial no. as I used on the hypothetical profile (no known direct evidence about it, based on indirect info and analogies) at http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1367.msg11014#msg11014 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1367.msg11014#msg11014)
  
(http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lendlease/p-39/misos/pokryshkin100bprof.jpg)
?Information about this number (e.g. S/N: 219158) is from historian Levchenko. He refers to the order he found in the archives and according to which aircraft technician Chuvashkin, was awarded. As it is known Chuvashkin maintained Pokryshkin?s planes throughout the war. Order for awarding is for time period autumn 1943. I have no other information.?

regards,
    66misos


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on March 28, 2014, 11:28:57 AM
Hi Misos,
seems a good confirmation. Probably the Russian historian has made the same connections.       

The restored P-39 has something wrong. I mistook it for a bad model at a first look.

Regards
Massimo



Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on March 28, 2014, 12:55:35 PM
Hi Massimo,
IMHO it is painted with some standard current Russian dark green paint, not original OD. And probably blue underside, like Babak's plane:
(http://www.airfighters.ru/babak9.jpg)

plus position of S/N, shape of red tail tip without white trim etc. Even thought, without photo of original plane...
Anyhow, serial number 219158 is interesting enough :)
Regards,
    66misos


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: KL on March 28, 2014, 05:18:10 PM
Hi Misos,
Babak's plane is a model in 1:1 scale and it is actually one of the few Airacobra models made in last 10-20 years.

Novosibirsk Airacobra may look like a model but according to http://vedomosti.sfo.ru/articles/?article=41229 it is a restored plane found in Irkutsk area.

(http://vedomosti.sfo.ru/files/flib/7798.jpg)

Searching info about this monument i found two interesting links:
Pokrishkin's museum within the Novosibirsk colledge:  http://oldmintrud.nso.ru/Lists/News/DispForm.aspx?ID=2032
Electronic library dedicated to Pokrishkin:  http://pokryshkin.ngonb.ru/jspui/

somewhat hard to navigate through this library but you may find something interesting.  check "kinodokuments" for start


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: Flavio on March 29, 2014, 10:44:05 AM
Thank you very much KL,
for the interesting links.
Flavio


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on December 29, 2014, 12:23:04 PM
Hi,
interesting photo of Pokryshkin was posted at airforce.ru forum:
(http://vif2ne.ru/nvi/forum/files/Flieger/(141223195854)_012_-_kopiya.jpg)
That aircraft looks like some early Cobra - vents on the side of the front/nose fuselage are missing, a bit of the thin long barrel nose gun is visible. Note black propeller blades with the yellow tips.

IMHO, it looks like some of those P-39D-2, like this one:
(http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lendlease/p-39/misos/pokryshkin130bprof.jpg)
Regards,
    66misos


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on December 29, 2014, 01:01:10 PM
Hi Misos,
will you continue your good work on profiles of P-39?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: Flavio on December 29, 2014, 02:56:19 PM
Great find!

Thank you 66Misos.

Flavio


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on December 29, 2014, 04:42:58 PM
Hi,

Massimo, I started to draw 4-view template, mainly for Sukhov's P-39. But I somehow lost internal motivation to finished it. In the meantime I have found colorizing much more interesting (and fun). But some day...

Flavio, nice to hear you again. Could we see also your painting http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1367.msg13852#msg13852 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1367.msg13852#msg13852) somewhere (here)?

Regards,
    66misos


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on December 30, 2014, 07:16:28 AM
Hi Misos,
pity for that work. It would have been highly interesting. I hope that you will return on it.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: barneybolac on April 19, 2015, 04:17:13 AM
There is video footage of Porshkin in this link.

Some colour footage of a King Cobra as well.

The P-39 footage starts at about the 23 minute mark.

http://rutube.ru/video/37b4c08cb64724d8072b6a9aa5219370/

Th clarity of this video is very good the above link is part of four. There is Yak-3's with solid upper camouflage I-16's with interesting patterns just to mention a few in the other films.
They can all be found on the right of the video with the other clips.


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: Flavio on April 19, 2015, 11:58:35 AM
Thank you barneybolac,

yes the quality of the video is very high.

Flavio


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on May 25, 2015, 07:47:56 PM
Hi,
I found at http://an-84.livejournal.com/61549.html (http://an-84.livejournal.com/61549.html) this interesting photo of La-7 with the inscription "...yshkinu", apparently "Pokryshkinu" e.g. "To Pokryshkin"
(http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/6203/129247089.5/0_797ff_1c30da13_L.jpg)
with the description:
During the fall of 1944 Pokryshkin, Commander of 9 giad, received several new domestic La-7 fighter aircrafts for military trials. But at the end he decided "not to change the horses in middle of the route" and they ended war with the "rogue" Airacobras already well-known to his pilots and technicians.
It was even said that the third HSU Gold Star was delayed because the commander of the 9 giad spins out the rearmament onto the Soviet technique...

According to some sources this is reason why Pokryshkin refused La-7 in his unit - Klubov's death in La-7 in November 1, 1944 during La-7 trials.
(http://www.airaces.narod.ru/all1/klubov11.jpg)

Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 25, 2015, 09:29:56 PM
Hi Misos,
interesting images. I've read somewhere about this accident; before this, Pokryshkin appreciated much more Lavochkins instead of Yaks, but his enthusiasm was frozen by this accident.
It would be very interesting to find more on these Lavochkins, but no numbers, no profiles...
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: learstang on May 25, 2015, 10:10:46 PM
I suppose it may just be a photographic artefact, but the outline on the star behind Pokryshkin on the La-7 does not appear to be white. Silver, perhaps (although it's not shiny)?

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on June 29, 2015, 07:27:36 PM
Hi,
based on recent discussions on the Russioan forum and also conclusions on this forum I made updated profile of Pokryshkin's "Sotka".
Plus I finally finished basic template fot Top & Bottom view, so I made also for this "Sotka".

EDIT July 9th, 2015 - picture deleted and new one posted bellow.

Regards,
  66misos


PS: So now it's time to finish also Sukhov's "50".


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 29, 2015, 08:38:21 PM
Hi Misos,
looks a good work, but the canopy of the top view doesn't give the idea to be clear. I suggest to make its layer's opacity at 50% and make some simplified detail of the inside.
As a simpler alternative, you could darken the existing layer up to medium grey.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: Flavio on June 29, 2015, 11:29:04 PM
based on recent discussions on the Russian forum and also conclusions on this forum I made updated profile of Pokryshkin's "Sotka".

Nice Work 66Misos,

please can you tell us more information about recent discussion you are referring?

Thank you

Flavio


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on June 30, 2015, 06:43:49 PM
Hi,
thank you for comments.

Massimo,
that non-transparent canopy was my intention, same as missing propeller blades. Seems it was not good decission, so I will update it - add some interior and propeller blades next days.

Flavio,
it was when I made original profiles of Pokryshkin's Cobras (somewhere in this long thread) and lately it was when I colorized photo of Pokryshkin standing on his "Sotka" http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1932.0 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1932.0) and WIP posted at VIF forum at airforce.ru. If I remember correctly, those comments came mainly from I.Zlobin and M.Bykov.

Regards,
  66misos


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on July 09, 2015, 11:26:29 PM
Hi,
here is the updated picture - added cockpit interior and propeller blades:

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_Pokryshkin/150709%20Bell%20P-39N-0_Pokryshkin%20100_v06b_zpsh44d1uhm.jpg)

Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on July 10, 2015, 06:08:35 AM
Hi Misos,
it looks excellent now. The effect of the glazing is very credible. Will you send the files to update your page?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: KL on July 10, 2015, 08:18:08 AM
Hi Misos,
it looks excellent, great job.

I am not sure about the propeller blades:  if landing gear is retracted - the plane is flying, propeller is spinning and blades shouldn't be visible.
If blades are static - the plane is on the ground and landing gear should be down...

Of course, if the plane is flying, pilot should be in the cockpit.   :D

my 2 cents....  ;)
KL


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: 66misos on July 10, 2015, 09:13:20 AM
Hi Gents,
Thanks for your comments.  ;D
KL, I am fully aware of all those aspects. And there is even more - if landing gears are down, also flaps should be down, sky/ground should be somewhere etc.
Let's say I used "artistic lience" to show how that plane could look. ;)
Regards,
  66misos


Title: Re: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
Post by: IgorZ on February 15, 2018, 03:10:16 PM
Here is your original picture - you intentionally deleted red spinner and red cap on the tail: -

As I write below, I do not have for that period of basics drawing a red tip of the tail and a cook, since the photographs of the planes did not confirm this.

Your comment:
And so, according to the documents of the CAMO and the analysis of photographs of the aircraft of the 16th GvIAP:
In the Kuban in April-June in the 16th Guyap
1- there were no red coats
2-there were no red cocoons
3-designations of victories on the plane of the tire are not present.

However, this is your decal sheet with Pokryshkin's P-39 "White 100" and red spinner is back again:

All right, this profile appeared after the publication of a picture with asterisks of victories, based on this picture I added a red nose.


Is there any other information confirming red spinnner except this photo?

Other pictures I do not know.