Sovietwarplanes

Was the red used on Li-2's in the Arctic a standard VVS colour?
I have seen references to "International Orange" but I am not sure about that.
There is a reasonable reference here but it is silent on exact shade beyond casting doubt on the lurid pink in one example.
http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Markings/Li-2/arctic-lisunov.php

Hi,
there is a drawing with orange panels here
http://crimso.msk.ru/Site/Crafts/Craft20674-1.htm#pics (http://crimso.msk.ru/Site/Crafts/Craft20674-1.htm#pics)
perhaps you could find the original text.
Some Pe-8s too of Aviaartika are drawn as orange in bibliography, and they appear in photos aside Li-2s.
If you find something, please let me know.
Regards
Massimo

N-328 appears also in the reference I quoted but it appears more red (there is a citation in the article where it was derived from - Modelist Konstuktur and Krilya Rodinu magazines) although it is described as "red-orange" and is also in the Amodel colour instructions as International Orange.
Was this "International Orange" colour in use in the USSR at the time?

As usual, I would not rely on Pilawskii  ;D
In this case he clearly cites his sources - antiquated "Modelist Konstruktor" and "Krila Rodini" magazines - good job!

Pilawskii's profile:
(http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Markings/Li-2/N328.gif)

1999 Mir Aviatsiyi magazine, Text by Kotelnikov, profiles by Tepsurkaev:
http://www.polarpost.ru/forum/download/file.php?id=17670&mode=view (http://www.polarpost.ru/forum/download/file.php?id=17670&mode=view)

Recent Maslov's profile, 1941 Li-2:
http://www.polarpost.ru/forum/download/file.php?id=7694&mode=view (http://www.polarpost.ru/forum/download/file.php?id=7694&mode=view)

Photos:
http://www.polarpost.ru/forum/download/file.php?id=548&mode=view (http://www.polarpost.ru/forum/download/file.php?id=548&mode=view)
(http://www.polarpost.ru/f/uploads/286_i328-1.jpg)

I believe Maslov!  N-328 is a wartime C-47, not Li-2 as Pilawskii suggests...
Colours - I think that "Aviaarktika" orange is morelikely than red..

Everything you want to know about Polar aviation is at: http://www.polarpost.ru/forum/viewforum.php?f=20

HTH,
KL

Konstantin, there's a problem with your 2nd, 3rd, and 4th links.  The last photograph is nice, though; I like that TB-3 in the background.  If I could ever get my hands on a (cheap) ICM TB-3, and get up the courage to build it, one of the Arctic TB-3's (Antarctic also?) would be a nice (and difficult!) conversion.

Regards,

Jason

Well, Konstantin has thrown a "cat amongst my pigeons". That's a radically different look to the suggested colour scheme in the Amodel kit! I do like it though!
The polarpost forum is very interesting and I'm most grateful for the link. Google translation is quite good on this site.
So... I need to go through all the polarpost Li-2 listings and pictures and come up with a suitable one as i don't want a C-47 or DC-3. It's difficult from the photos to decide between Li-2 and C-47 but the Maslov drawing appears to have the single passenger door of a DC-3.
Any suggestions for a nice red-orange Arctic Li-2T scheme are most welcome.

Are these photos of N328 or of another plane? The first photos of the topic of the Russian forum are no longer visible.
Regards
Massimo

Might I suggest Akan's acrylic VVS red? It seems to have an orange tint to it to my eye, with sunfading and blasting from prop-driven snow & ice srystals, a shift to other tones from primarily red is quite plausible.
And, to my initial annoyance, Akan included a bottle of red in every VVS set-now buying those might be starting to pay off.

Hi,
there is something about orange for arctic planes and blue for civilian planes here.

http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/color-table.html (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/color-table.html)

There are links to museal exhibits, but the interpretation of colors is a guess based on photographs. Those colors are described as nitro, but it's likely that an oil based version did exist.
Regards
Massimo

I don?t think there was any special red colour for polar aviation.  ?Red-orange? is Pilavskii?s fantasy ? same as ?factory green? and other fictional colours.   :-X

In reality, orange and orange/blue were colours typical for polar aviation:

(http://crimso.msk.ru/Images6/MA/MA99-4/o2-1.jpg)
(http://crimso.msk.ru/Images6/AV/AV07-3/21-5.jpg)
(http://crimso.msk.ru/Images6/IA/IA02-5/17-3.jpg)
(http://crimso.msk.ru/Images6/MA/MA97-1/25-5.jpg)

Pe-8 model
(http://scalewiki.ru/lib/exe/fetch.php?hash=3eaad3&media=http%3A%2F%2Fimg441.imageshack.us%2Fimg441%2F2996%2Fpe82.jpg)
Museum Saleharda
(http://russos.ru/img/trip/2011-03-salekhard/polar-air-01.jpg)

modern Mi-8
(http://s3.postimage.org/5pa1yw0oj/kk_mi_8_132.jpg)

HTH,
KL

Nice pictures, Konstantin, thank you!  I love that TB-3, but that would be a big conversion job.  Maybe Amodel will come out with it!  I know it won't happen, but I can dream.

Regards,

Jason

Great pictures Konstantin, really impressive display of orange there.... lots of modeling inspiration! Thanks.
I assume the Museum Saleharda plane is a DC-3?
Looking at the polar aviation site it seems the Li-2's were the exception to the orange rule and that most of them retained their green/blue colours.

Hi, really nice drawings.
The plane exposed is a Li-2, distinguishable for many details, in particular for the V-shaped landing gear rear strut and the cylindrical cowling.
I like late-type TB-3 very much, unfortunately the corrugated skin discourages any conversion on those kits.
Regards
Massimo

Ah yes, looking at larger images I see you are right - it's 7395(0?). Anyone like to put a service date on this aircraft and comment on whether it flew in the Arctic in this scheme? It looks different to most of them on the polar-aviation site but a good candidate for a model.

While not exactly on point for this thread, I think the collective participating wil find this new post on englishrussia interesting:
"This Douglas C-47-DL, serial number 42-32892, factory 9118 was deliver to the US Air Force on February 24th 1943. It was then handed to the USSR Air Force on 12th march 1943 under the lend-lease programme, where it was given the ID ?USSR-H-328′. It was sent to the 7th Arctic Aviation Regiment of the 1st Air Division.
According to order number OK/071 of April 16th 1943 it was enlisted by the Office of Polar Aviation to conduct ice reconnaissance. From October 22nd to November 1th 1943 it explored the Kara Sea under the command of the pilot, MA Titlova.
From 3th June to 24th July 1944 it made further sorties from bases in Anderme for further reconnaissance of the Kara Sea. In 1945 it was sent to the Chukotka Polar Air Arm where it was given the number A-3072.
One book describes the final fate of this aircraft.
?Emergency, Saturday April 13th 1947 in the area of the river Dudypty, North of the village Volochanka. Failure of the left engine. Successfully made a landing and sat for around twenty days, until discovered by the crew of F. Shatrova. 28 people survives, some with minor frostbite on their hands and face (mostly children). Commander Tyuikov, airborne radio operator Smirnov and seven passengers were missing ? they had gone in search of help in the snowy tundra and never returned.?

http://englishrussia.com/2012/07/23/russian-c-47-dakota-found-in-siberia/#more-105514

Also cross-posted in the lend-lease forum under the C-47 thread.

Thank you for posting that, Kevin!  I only wish it were an Li-2 and not a Lend-Lease C-47 (there are a lot more C-47's around now than there are Li-2's).  Still an interesting find and in amazingly good shape.  I saw the one person's response about how the Soviets never repaid nor sent back their L-L equipment.  As far as I'm concerned, their 27 million war dead, including 9 million soldiers should be considered payment enough, and the Russian made a good response post about how American, and British and Commonwealth lives were saved because of the Soviets fighting the Wehrmacht.

Regards,

Jason

Some notes:

-  Three Li-2s included in Aviaartika in 1941 (N310 to N313) were probably orange/blue as per Maslov's profile

-  N328 was a 1943 Land-Lease C-47.  Probably remained in its original colours while with Polar Aviation.  Tepsurkaev's and Pilawskii's SSSR-N328 profiles are missidentified, colours are wrong, Arctic red-orange/silver scheme never existed.

-  Not all Aviaarktika and Polar Aviation planes were orange - some new, demilitarized or L-L planes remained in their original colours.

-  Salehard Li-2 monument (SSSR-73956) was probably an Aeroflot plane.  It was repainted many times - trimming was red, orange and now it's blue.   ::)

Polar Aviation Li-2 around 1960 (1961?)
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/Li-220on20the20Mawson20plateau20in201964.jpg)

Aeroflot Li-2s
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/275_04204_04244.jpg)

HTH,
KL  

Hi,
excellent photos.
These are C-47s, distinguishable for the trasparent dome that Li-2s hadn't.
Regards
Massimo

Li-2 could have a dome - check photos at http://www.airforce.ru/history/li-2_arctic/index.htm
Photos were taken in early 1970es

(http://www.airforce.ru/history/li-2_arctic/li-2_arctic_15.jpg)

or following Polar Aviation Li-2
(http://u.jimdo.com/www31/o/s3726f4fc9675ca64/img/ieda4026fcb03dd45/1332495047/std/image.jpg)

@ Learstang: The abject ignorance about the USSR in the GPW is a serious pet-peeve. The poster's comment about the Soviets not returning LL equipment is garbage. Not that it was "paid in full" but much was paid for or returned--but as you implied, the USSR beating Hitler made LL a worthwhile investment.

I see, it could be a late refitting on polar planes.
Regards
Massimo

Thanks KL - you are a font of knowledge! Those pictures are even better. "CCCP-04204" and "-04244" both look like good candidates for a model. Am I right in thinking just "CCC" above port wing and maybe just "204" above stbd wing? I have manipulated the photo and can't see the "P" anywhere there. However the b&w picture of 0244 seems to show "04244" in full above stbd wing so I'm guessing "CCCP" above port. This is the sort of thing that kit and decal makers face all the time - the right answer comes up after you have committed the artwork! Just like Amodel!

Hi,
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/275_04204_04244.jpg)
I think that the 'p' is there, but is glossy and reflects the orange side of fuselage.
(http://www.airforce.ru/history/li-2_arctic/li-2_arctic_7.jpg)
The code is complete in this image, it looks likely that it's as the other plane.
Regards
Massimo

Now we just need a good view of the nose lettering and I'm ready to roll.

The Amodel kit has an option for a Li-2V with astrodome, extra crew cabin window and whip aerial as per these two and different skis to the Li-2T.
Unless there is a picture to the contrary I'll go with these skis.

Now when you have selected plane my internet search yielded some more concrete results:
Colour photo showing two Li-2s was taken at the Cherskiy airport (Yakutia) in early 1970es.
Two planes are in ?modified? Aeroflot colours.  In 1970es Aeroflot Li-2s livery was very simple - just two red lines along fuselage sides, one above and one below passengers? windows.  Tailfin and tip of the rudder were also red.  Aeroflot symbol was painted bellow and behind the cockpit.
(http://s4.postimage.org/j83gowk2k/img010.jpg)

At some point (maybe in 1973 when GUSMP and its Polar Aviation were disbanded  ???) tailfin, wingtips and tips of horizontal stabilizers were painted in red.  Also, a wide red line around the passengers? windows was added.

A single Li-2 (SSSR-04218) is preserved at Cherskiy as a monument.  The plane could be in its original colours on the following old photo ???
(http://airliner-models.org/_fr/23/0284155.jpg)

Model of the Cherskiy Li-2 monument
(http://airliner-models.org/_fr/23/2189868.jpg)

Usefull links about Aeroflot Li-2 colours
http://airliner-models.org/forum/topic/1700-okraska-li-2-v-aaroflote-vopros/
http://airliner-models.org/forum/topic/2344-li-2-aaroflot-poljarnaja-aviacija-sssr-04218-1100-konvers/
http://airliner-models.org/forum/topic/1719-li-2-aaroflot/
http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_10575_start_0.html
Soviet a/c database:
http://www.scramble.nl/sovdb.htm

Early (end of 1940es and 1950es) Aeroflot symbol and lettering
(http://airliner-models.org/_fr/17/6190536.jpg)

Good luck with your Li-2!!!
KL

Correction - it wasn't that simple....  :-X

Following is 1965 photo, same Li-2 04204 - clearly there are red and blue double lines both above and below windows!
http://www.polarpost.ru/forum/download/file.php?id=8098&mode=view

It looks that "thick blue line + thin red line" from 1950es evolved in "double blue/red line" in 1960es.

In 1974 blue Aeroflot trimming (seen on jet airliners) became a GOST standard. Thin red lines should have disappeared from those planes. Probably at the same time Aeroflot's Polar Aviation switched to "red only"...

Examples of red colour used by Aeroflot's Polar Aviation in mid-1980es:

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/199122.jpg)
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/199121.jpg)

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/04177-1.jpg)

Red colour is the same as the red of the national flag (the "Red Banner") or the "Red Star" - AKAN's red would be perfect.

HTH,
KL

SSSR-04244 would be an interesting model - real plane ended in a dramatic way:

w/o 03may73 when the gear collapsed whilst taxiing on the ice of the frozen sea in the
Canadian Arctic at 82?15' N, 125? W, was used for upholding communications with
Soviet Navy submarines, the wreck was sank by crew by blown up the ice this as the
aircraft contained secret equipment, the crew was rescued two days later by another
aircraft

HTH,
KL