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Great Patriotic War Aviation => Prewar types during the GPW => Topic started by: Seawinder on August 11, 2012, 07:46:40 PM



Title: I-16 Type 24, White 11 "For Salin"
Post by: Seawinder on August 11, 2012, 07:46:40 PM
The instructions in the Eduard Weekend Edition kit, which I'm building, call for the gun camera (?) on top of the fuselage aft of the cockpit. Of the many online profiles of this plane, some show it present, but more show it not present. The only photo I've seen, with Safonov posing in front, only goes back as far as the gunsight. Any confirmation available either way?

TIA.
Pip Moss


Title: Re: I-16 Type 24, White 11 "For Salin"
Post by: KL on August 11, 2012, 07:54:53 PM
I-16 Type 24, White 11 "For Stalin" had a camera

(http://reibert.info/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=693051&d=1289498673)

(http://crimso.msk.ru/Images6/AK/AK1995-11/61-3.jpg)

more at http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1079.15


Title: Re: I-16 Type 24, White 11 "For Salin"
Post by: Seawinder on August 11, 2012, 08:47:52 PM
Many thanks, Konstantin! The first photo is also really helpful for the color demarcation line.

Pip


Title: Re: I-16 Type 24, White 11 "For Salin"
Post by: Seawinder on August 28, 2012, 09:26:14 PM
Another question, if I may: The Eduard instructions call for flat black propeller blades, but a lot of I-16 photos show aluminum blades, at least on the front surfaces. Available photos of White 11 don't show the prop. What would be most likely?

TIA
Pip


Title: Re: I-16 Type 24, White 11 "For Salin"
Post by: learstang on August 28, 2012, 10:37:10 PM
That first photograph shows the pre-war scheme, with the overall green topsides and the stars with the thin black outline.  Pre-war the propellers were normally all-metal, with the back 2/3rds (3/4ths?) painted black for anti-glare purposes.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: I-16 Type 24, White 11 "For Salin"
Post by: Seawinder on August 29, 2012, 12:04:57 AM
Thanks for the reply, Jason. The Eduard instructions give 1941 for the year. Even with the early paint scheme (I did it as AII Green/Blue), would the propeller perhaps have been repainted black by then?

Pip


Title: Re: I-16 Type 24, White 11 "For Salin"
Post by: learstang on August 29, 2012, 01:16:33 AM
It's certainly possible.  It's not like the new paint scheme and repainting the propellers had to be done at the same time.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: I-16 Type 24, White 11 "For Salin"
Post by: Seawinder on August 29, 2012, 05:16:28 AM
It's certainly possible.  It's not like the new paint scheme and repainting the propellers had to be done at the same time.
Regards,
Jason

I guess, in the absence of absolute certainty either way, I'll go with aluminum blades -- it'll add visual interest. Just for interest sake, was there a particular time frame when props began to be painted black? Did it coincide, for example, with the change-over to AMT paints?

Pip


Title: Re: I-16 Type 24, White 11 "For Salin"
Post by: learstang on August 29, 2012, 05:43:45 AM
It's certainly possible.  It's not like the new paint scheme and repainting the propellers had to be done at the same time.
Regards,
Jason

I guess, in the absence of absolute certainty either way, I'll go with aluminum blades -- it'll add visual interest. Just for interest sake, was there a particular time frame when props began to be painted black? Did it coincide, for example, with the change-over to AMT paints?

Pip

Good question, Pip.  I've been going over my Il-2 photographs, and generally, it looks like if it has the black/green scheme, it has the black blades, and if it has the pre-war scheme, it has the (mostly) natural metal blades.  There are exceptions, of course, but this seems to be the general rule.  It make sense - nothing like the glint off of natural metal blades to give away your position to the Germans, both on the ground and in the air.  Since you're splashing the black on in the field, why not cover the blades at the same time (I suspect this was done at the factories from the time they started applying the black/green scheme).

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: I-16 Type 24, White 11 "For Salin"
Post by: Seawinder on September 09, 2012, 08:40:18 PM
Well, here's the finished model. It's the Eduard Weekend Edition, built OOB with the the kit markings. I did cut off the sides of the cockpit floor, but you really can't see it! I used Mr. Color no. 136, Russian Green 2, for the upper AII Green, and I mixed Model Master Russian Topside Blue and Mr. Color no. 323 Light Blue for the AII Blue unders. Photos clearly show a somewhat glossy finish, so I used Micro Flat straight up for a weathered sheen. I'm grateful for the information I obtained here at sovietwarplanes.com.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/2012-Models/Polikarpov-I16-Type-24/i-cr97cg2/0/4a8601dc/L/I-16%20LeftFrontHigh-L.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/2012-Models/Polikarpov-I16-Type-24/i-qLJm3qQ/0/2dfce01c/L/I-16%20Right-L.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/2012-Models/Polikarpov-I16-Type-24/i-6nvsC9v/0/6a87a40a/L/I-16%20LeftRear-L.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/2012-Models/Polikarpov-I16-Type-24/i-frPbPqs/0/cb26b8c3/L/I-16%20RightFrontLow-L.jpg)

Pip Moss




Title: Re: I-16 Type 24, White 11 "For Salin"
Post by: bbrought on September 09, 2012, 09:50:55 PM
Hi Pip

Absolutely beautiful. It really makes me want to build mine (I have the same weekend edition kit in the stash).

A quick question:

I mixed Model Master Russian Topside Blue and Mr. Color no. 323 Light Blue for the AII Blue unders.

If I remember correctly, Mr Color is a lacquer based paint and Model Master is enamel. I didn't know these two brands would be compatible, but based on your results it looked like it worked fine. Any comment?


Title: Re: I-16 Type 24, White 11 "For Salin"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on September 09, 2012, 10:15:43 PM
Good model. Thank you for sharing the photos. The shades look very likely.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: I-16 Type 24, White 11 "For Salin"
Post by: Seawinder on September 09, 2012, 10:41:45 PM
Hi Pip

Absolutely beautiful. It really makes me want to build mine (I have the same weekend edition kit in the stash).

A quick question:

I mixed Model Master Russian Topside Blue and Mr. Color no. 323 Light Blue for the AII Blue unders.

If I remember correctly, Mr Color is a lacquer based paint and Model Master is enamel. I didn't know these two brands would be compatible, but based on your results it looked like it worked fine. Any comment?

Hi bbrought.
Thanks for the nice comment. In answer to your question, I thought at first that the Mr. Color and Model Master were going to clash -- the resulting mix was a little "slushy." However, once I added some lacquer thinner, the consistency evened out nicely, and the mixture remained stable for the duration of the build (and is still apparently okay several weeks later).

Pip


Title: Re: I-16 Type 24, White 11 "For Salin"
Post by: learstang on September 10, 2012, 12:53:07 AM
Lovely little Ishak, Pip!  Excellent job!

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: I-16 Type 24, White 11 "For Salin"
Post by: Seawinder on September 10, 2012, 04:50:19 AM
Lovely little Ishak, Pip!  Excellent job!

Regards,

Jason

Thanks, Jason!


Title: Re: I-16 Type 24, White 11 "For Salin"
Post by: bbrought on September 10, 2012, 09:18:53 AM
Thanks for the nice comment. In answer to your question, I thought at first that the Mr. Color and Model Master were going to clash -- the resulting mix was a little "slushy." However, once I added some lacquer thinner, the consistency evened out nicely, and the mixture remained stable for the duration of the build (and is still apparently okay several weeks later).

Thank you, Pip. I suppose if you can thin enamels with lacquer thinner, it should be possible to mix them with lacquer paint. I just once again want to tell you how good this model looks. Very inspirational!

Kind regards,
Bennie


Title: Re: I-16 Type 24, White 11 "For Salin"
Post by: Pascal on September 10, 2012, 03:09:29 PM
Hi Pip,

I like your I-16, very much! It looks good, and the colours are fine.

Pascal


Title: Re: I-16 Type 24, White 11 "For Salin"
Post by: 66misos on September 14, 2012, 09:30:28 AM
Hi Pip,

your I-16 looks very nice.
Although I more like "used" or worn look, your I-16 perfectly represents what I see on the photos - plane cleaned and polished before photo session.
You matched colors also very well, at least when I compare what I see on the PC monitor with what I have painted with Akan AII Green & AII Blue.
Happy modeling.

     66misos


Title: Re: I-16 Type 24, White 11 "For Salin"
Post by: KL on September 17, 2012, 11:09:24 PM
... your I-16 perfectly represents what I see on the photos - plane cleaned and polished before photo session.

I don't think anybody would waste time and effort to clean and polish plane specially for photo session. For what I know there is no hard evidence that such "preparation" has ever happened.  Yes, these photos were taken by a war correspodent, for "propaganda" purposes, but why streching this into something unlikely? Photographer was experienced enough to get his message out using other means.  Plane was basically, a background decoration...  if there were some exhaust or oil stains, would that change Safonov's determined look or his victory score??? 

There are many photos of I-16 captured intact by Germans and those don't look much different in terms of stains/weare and tear.   Anyway, planes cleaned and polished for photo sessions are Pilawskii's "tra-la-la"   :P

Cheers,
KL


Title: Re: I-16 Type 24, White 11 "For Salin"
Post by: 66misos on September 18, 2012, 10:29:19 AM
Hi KL,

this is screen shot (time 4:12 to 4:16 from 10:40) from doc movie "Крылья России - Истребители - Грозовые годы 4/5 серия 2" I found on Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0A1U0RwZbo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0A1U0RwZbo)

May be this is not hard evidence but it shows cleaning aircraft:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Yak-3/Cleaningaircraft.jpg)

Purpose of cleaning was not only to show things looking better. Cleaned, polished surface helped to increase plane max speed of some 10 to 20 km/h. This practice is described in a lot of memoirs books and articles (and shown in this picture)  ;)

Regards,
     66misos


Title: Re: I-16 Type 24, White 11 "For Salin"
Post by: Seawinder on September 18, 2012, 05:34:12 PM
Hi Pip,

your I-16 looks very nice.
Although I more like "used" or worn look, your I-16 perfectly represents what I see on the photos - plane cleaned and polished before photo session.
You matched colors also very well, at least when I compare what I see on the PC monitor with what I have painted with Akan AII Green & AII Blue.
Happy modeling.

     66misos

Hi 66misos.
Thanks for the comment. I'm especially glad that the colors seem to be at least close, especially the AII Blue, of which there is conflicting documentation. I do tend to keep weathering subtle. I did some post-shading and exhaust staining which doesn't show very much in the photos, but the photo of the plane taking off clearly shows a good degree of gloss, so I reasoned that the finish probably was pretty clean.

Pip


Title: Re: I-16 Type 24, White 11 "For Salin"
Post by: KL on September 18, 2012, 05:53:27 PM
May be this is not hard evidence but it shows cleaning aircraft:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Yak-3/Cleaningaircraft.jpg)

Cleaning as part of the maintenance and polishing to improve aerodynamics - yes, that was done in reality (in every air force, not in VVS only).

Cleaning and polishing for a photographic session/propaganda ? not in real life, only in Pilawskii?s fairytales.

Cheers,
KL


Title: Re: I-16 Type 24, White 11 "For Salin"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on September 18, 2012, 08:03:54 PM
Hi,
it's known that they painted slogans and other markings for photo sessions, so why shouldn't them have cleaned planes for the same reason?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: I-16 Type 24, White 11 "For Salin"
Post by: KL on September 18, 2012, 08:48:48 PM
it's known that they painted slogans and other markings for photo sessions...

Known fact or "educated guess"???  I think it's a gueswork, and a very naive, uninformed guess.
you may contest authenticity of any individual marking or a slogan this way...  Are all slogans temporary propaganda??? how do you know which one was real and which one was made specially for photo session?

I think that all slogans were real, they were an attempt to boost moral.  It's a fact that thousands of planes were bought by individuals and organizations and in many cases this was documented as slogans.
Some slogans were photographed, many were not.  how do you explain so many photos in which slogans are only partially visible or hardly legible?

Regards,
KL

PS:  Il-2s with slogan "Na Berlin" painted for a movie shortly after the war are very different case.  That can't be called "war propaganda" because the war was over...


Title: Re: I-16 Type 24, White 11 "For Salin"
Post by: 66misos on September 18, 2012, 08:56:55 PM
Hi,
it seems that sequence from approximately 4:05 to 4:50 from that doc movie is from one event. Big airport, soviet planes (Yaks) and US planes (B-17), soviet officers show Yak cockpit to US officer, relaxed atmosphere all around, some young soldier cleaning and polishing aircraft...
At least for me it does not look like repair & maintenance day. It looks more like effort to make things (e.g. Planes) looking better in front of visitors/photographers  ;)

Regards,
     66misos


Title: Re: I-16 Type 24, White 11 "For Salin"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on September 18, 2012, 11:54:27 PM
Hi,
I don't want to say that this slogan was painted for the photo session, I simply don't know this. I mean that it looks possible that planes were cleaned before a photographic session. I don't know if EP said this, but if he did, this doesn't necessarily mean it is wrong.
Regards
Massimo