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Title: Other bad painting Post by: Massimo Tessitori on September 08, 2012, 06:55:32 AM (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/il-2/il2-camo/strangecamo/strangecamo1.jpg)
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/il-2/il2-camo/strangecamo/strangecamo2.jpg) Here are some images of a derelict Il-2 in the summer of 1941. The plane is of very early type, probably with metallic fuselage, as one can think comparing the lighter shade of the blue (A-18f) utilized on the metallic fuselage, with the slightly darker shade of AII light blue, utilized to paint the rear fuselage undersurface of the plane n.10 on the background, undoubtedly wooden as revealed by the rectangular sripped part on its rear back. Besides, horizontal equally-spaced shadows on the stabilizator suggest the lines of rivets, bending the metal sheet. Some characteristics of the very early planes were the lack of armour on the upper side of the canopy, the lack of the sheet that covers the upper part of the gap between spinner and engine cowling, the early type wing with balances to tips and ailerons, the 20 mm ShVAK guns and the landing light on both wings. The camouflage is absolutely strange; the use of at least 3 colors is evident from the tail. One can suppose that at least two colors were added on the background painted with A-19f green: a darker shade, probably black, and a lighter one, that I've represented as a light green. The camouflage of the rear fuselage is more elaborated than that of the nose (and, for what seems to see, of wings), possibly because the rear fuselage is more easily accessible to painters. (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/il-2/il2-camo/strangecamo/strangecamo3.jpg) Below, an artist's impression of this plane. (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/il-2/il2-camo/strangecamo/il2-sp-fm-amv-3view-strangecamo.jpg) Massimo Title: Re: Other bad painting Post by: learstang on September 08, 2012, 05:55:44 PM That has to be one of the most unusually camouflaged Shturmoviks I've ever seen, Massimo. I agree that it appears to be metal-fuselaged. Although the right side is of course conjecture, it looks reasonable, and it would make a fascinating subject for a model.
Regards, Jason Title: Re: Other bad painting Post by: KL on September 08, 2012, 07:37:26 PM What would be the purpose of light green? It's almost undistingushable... Why not AMT-1 in this case? ::)
If you want a striking model, or just to hypothesize, use tank paints 4BO, 6K and 7K. Regards, KL Title: Re: Other bad painting Post by: Massimo Tessitori on September 08, 2012, 09:16:46 PM Hi,
I think that the color is light green because the camo on the fuselage, oval blotches over darker green or black (with black outlines), resembles the foliage of a tree, even if larger. Of course, the light shade could also be some light brown. I don't think to AMT-1, both because the image is too early (summer 1941, and already a relict), botH because it's gloss although being not so new. I don't know if 6k and 7k were gloss or when they were introduced. To tell the truth, I don't know their shade at all. Regards Massimo Title: Re: Other bad painting Post by: KL on September 09, 2012, 09:25:51 AM Hi Massimo,
Tank camouflage paints were suggested for this Il-2 on one russian forum. Time and place where these photos were taken are known. Supposedly tanks in that area were camouflaged (which was relatively uncommon) during July 1941 battles. 4BO was olive green, (4BO was AMT-4's progenitor) 6K was dark brown (probably related to never used "tobacco brown") 7K light earthy brown/yellow (7K was AMT-1's progenitor) There was also black camouflage colour 6RP (obviously AMT-6's progenitor) (http://pro-tank.ru/images/stories/blog/tanki-t-34-camouflage/tanki-t-34-camouflage-11.jpg) (http://pro-tank.ru/images/stories/blog/tanki-t-34-camouflage/tanki-t-34-camouflage-03-big.jpg) Jason, as I said before, I have nothing against Massimo's interpretations. I hope Massimo will accept some of my suggestions and include them in his drawings. Profile of an Il-2 that was painted like T-34 would be an interesting experiment. HTH, KL Title: Re: Other bad painting Post by: Massimo Tessitori on September 09, 2012, 10:27:54 AM Hi Konstantin,
the idea sounds possible, but I would know more on these colors: if they were glossy, when and where they were distributed. Else, my idea is that some technician made a mix with aviation paints. Regards Massimo Title: Re: Other bad painting Post by: KL on September 09, 2012, 06:08:38 PM the idea sounds possible, but I would know more on these colors: if they were glossy, when and where they were distributed. Else, my idea is that some technician made a mix with aviation paints. Those paints were semi-glossy and they were definitelly in use in 1940-41. "Badly painted Il-2" was photographed somewhere on the central front, AFAIK around Smolensk - I could find more details about the location/unit if you want to experiment with tank colours. ;) HTH, KL Title: Re: Other bad painting Post by: learstang on September 09, 2012, 06:39:00 PM Jason, as I said before, I have nothing against Massimo's interpretations. I hope Massimo will accept some of my suggestions and include them in his drawings. Profile of an Il-2 that was painted like T-34 would be an interesting experiment. HTH, KL Fair enough, Konstantin. As a matter of fact, I've included this profile in my book with the caveat ("warning") that it's somewhat conjectural, although it is based on a photograph. I think as long as any modeller realises that a profile may have some extrapolation, that's sufficient. No telling how many well-accepted profiles of Western WWII aircraft are somewhat conjectural. If you want to see arguments about colours, just look at some threads regarding the actual colour of Olive Drab. Or the paint scheme used on Singapore-based Vickers Vildebeests! Regards, Jason Title: Re: Other bad painting Post by: Massimo Tessitori on September 09, 2012, 07:06:28 PM Hi Konstantin,
the interpretation is possible, but the resemblance with leaves gives to me the idea of light green. Isn't there any light green for tanks? Maybe it could be the case of this one (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/il2-early3tonecamo.jpg) even it this image is few for a profile. Regards Massimo Title: Re: Other bad painting Post by: KL on September 10, 2012, 08:04:48 PM I think that the color is light green because the camo on the fuselage, oval blotches over darker green or black (with black outlines), resembles the foliage of a tree, even if larger. Of course, the light shade could also be some light brown. I don't think to AMT-1, both because the image is too early (summer 1941, and already a relict), botH because it's gloss although being not so new. I don't know if 6k and 7k were gloss or when they were introduced. To tell the truth, I don't know their shade at all. Massimo, this would be an unique example of 1941 camouflage in which someone painted actual leafs ??? IMHO, those who camoufaged planes, tanks etc did understand what was the goal of disruptive camouflage. Interpretation of camouflage as painted leafs would be an underestimation of Soviet camouflage theory and practice. Unusual aspect in this case is relatively small size of camouflage fields for a plane of Il-2 size. These small fields would work on a small tank/armoured car. As I mentioned, camouflaged tanks were rare in 1941, among those that were camouflaged 3-colour scheme (olive green/dark brown/light brown ) was the the most common. There was no "light green" - 4BO was light enough (especially on b/w photos) For shades, I would rely on A. Akanihin http://akan.ru/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=477&category_id=40&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=2 http://akan.ru/index.php?page=shop.product_details&product_id=897&category_id=40&flypage=flypage.tpl&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=2 http://akan.ru/index.php?page=shop.product_details&product_id=898&category_id=40&flypage=flypage.tpl&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=2 I think I posted this somewhere before, can't remember where... :( HTH, KL Title: Re: Other bad painting Post by: KL on September 10, 2012, 11:27:25 PM Massimo,
we have discussed this a year ago - check post No 41: http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1023.30 I still think that tank paints were more likely in July 1941 than some hypothetical paint mixes or AMT-1... Regards, KL Title: Re: Other bad painting Post by: learstang on September 11, 2012, 12:28:01 AM Konstantin, now I see what you're saying about the tank paint 7K - it does look like AMT-1. It would make more sense that they would have used that than the still-experimental AMT-1.
Regards, Jason Title: Re: Other bad painting Post by: Massimo Tessitori on September 11, 2012, 07:18:54 AM Hi,
comparing one by one the blotches from those photos, it seems that there are more than three colors. (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/strangecamo/strangecamo4.jpg) So, they appear identical in one photo, different in another. They have to be a brown and a green. I'll turn some of the blotches to brown. Regards Massimo Title: Re: Other bad painting Post by: KL on September 11, 2012, 08:49:01 AM Hi, comparing one by one the blotches from those photos, it seems that there are more than three colors. (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/strangecamo/strangecamo4.jpg) So, they appear identical in one photo, different in another. They have to be a brown and a green. I'll turn some of the blotches to brown. Four colours are possible: three tank colours + original A-19f Four colours sorted from the lightest to the darkest: 1. K7 light brown (the lightest) 2. 4BO light olive green 3. A-19f darker olive green 4. K6 dark brown Title: Re: Other bad painting Post by: Massimo Tessitori on September 11, 2012, 05:02:08 PM Hi,
I think that the darker color is black. I am not sure about 4BO, I don't think it's lighter than A-18f. Maybe one can try to understand the characteristics of the film by observing other parts of the photo of the Bf-109. (http://i071.radikal.ru/1011/c2/94810a1b81ea.jpg) I see that the yellow of the band appears rather dark here. Regards Massimo Title: Re: Other bad painting Post by: Massimo Tessitori on September 11, 2012, 07:06:11 PM Hi,
I've modified the drawing, as you can see. I'm still in doubt with the shades, because 7K and 4BO are scarcely contrasting and I don't think that they could have caused those strange differences in photos; I think that the colors should be more contrasting in hue and saturation. However, I've drawn it so. Regards Massimo Title: Re: Other bad painting Post by: KL on September 11, 2012, 07:47:22 PM I'm still in doubt with the shades, because 7K and 4BO are scarcely contrasting and I don't think that they could have caused those strange differences in photos; I think that the colors should be more contrasting in hue and saturation. However, I've drawn it so. 4BO and 6K were high contrast colours: 4BO was light yellowish olive green, 6K was maroon dark brown. 4BO was designed to replace previous "protective green" which appeared dark on photos. 4BO would appear as light gray on most types of film. Goal was actually to produce paint that will look as close as possible to grass/folliage on different film types. 6K was supposed to break up green shapes, same as black in 1941 camouflage scheme. 7K was supposed to blend with dry earth and dry grass, maybe contrast with 4BO wasn't a goal. Contrast between light brown 7K and dark brown 6K would be significant. Why don't you try to replace black with dark brown? Consider following details: - 4BO was a base colour applied in factories - camouflage colours 6K and 7K were applied in the field - 6K was supposed to cover 15-30% of the surface - 7K was supposed to cover another 15-30% of the surface (http://s011.radikal.ru/i317/1012/4a/b96c582025ef.jpg) (http://f2.s.qip.ru/001ACj.jpg) (http://f2.s.qip.ru/0476cD.jpg) (http://f3.s.qip.ru/048nBt.jpg) (http://f1.s.qip.ru/048iSu.jpg) (http://f1.s.qip.ru/049DL0.jpg) from http://nemirov41.forum24.ru/?1-19-0-00000010-000-40-0 Title: Re: Other bad painting Post by: Massimo Tessitori on September 11, 2012, 10:59:40 PM Nice photos of tanks indeed.
The color on the photos looks black to me, and black was commonly utilized on planes. Maybe there is also some dark brown hidden there, but I can't distinguish it. Regards Massimo Title: Re: Other bad painting Post by: KL on September 12, 2012, 06:57:14 PM (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/strangecamo/il2-sp-fm-amv-3view-strangecamo.jpg)
Hi Massimo, this looks interesting, it would be even better with dk brown instead of black ;) The color on the photos looks black to me, and black was commonly utilized on planes. Maybe there is also some dark brown hidden there, but I can't distinguish it. The colour could be dark brown as well. You know that black AMT-6 on b/w photos may range from black to light gray. Same with dark brown K6 - on some photos it looks black on other it could be any shade of gray. The facts are: - this Il-2 was camouflaged during first few weeks of GPW to comply with June 1941 order - camouflage pattern has nothing in common with June 1941 drawing that was issued with the order - it's clearly 3-colour camouflage - tanks were camouflaged in 3-colour scheme in 1941. Colours were 4BO, 6K and 7K So, dark brown makes (some) sense... Regards, KL Title: Re: Other bad painting Post by: learstang on September 12, 2012, 10:12:06 PM Konstantin, should all the light green also be replaced by 7K (the AMT-1 "analogue")? That would make for an interesting aeroplane and the colours would actually match the colours used in the computer flight simulator games Birds of Prey and War Thunder. I've been hounding the programmers to change them to the more likely black/green for a couple of years now, with no success. Hopefully they won't see this thread and say, "See, we were correct!". Of course even if dark brown, light brown, and green were used on a few single-seaters, they have it as the standard camouflage for all their single-seaters (and their arrows).
Regards, Jason Title: Re: Other bad painting Post by: KL on September 12, 2012, 10:53:26 PM I would limit light brown 7K and dark brown 6K after the high contrast isert (probably taken with some filter which changed yellow Me-109 band in dk gray)
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/strangecamo/strangecamo4.jpg) white paches will be light brown, black patches will be dark brown. Both brown colours would remain within their prescribed 15-30% of the surface. the rest would be green. The key is probably to understand what filter was used and how it affected 3 colours. Regards, KL Title: Re: Other bad painting Post by: KL on September 13, 2012, 01:52:35 AM I would limit light brown 7K and dark brown 6K after the high contrast isert (probably taken with some filter which changed yellow Me-109 band in dk gray) white paches will be light brown, black patches will be dark brown. Both brown colours would remain within their prescribed 15-30% of the surface. the rest would be green. The key is probably to understand what filter was used and how it affected 3 colours. IMHO, something like this: (http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/strangecamo4-colorised.jpg) Title: Re: Other bad painting Post by: learstang on September 13, 2012, 04:31:49 AM Now that does look good. I like that! I want one!
Regards, Jason Title: Re: Other bad painting Post by: Massimo Tessitori on September 13, 2012, 10:46:21 PM Hi Konstantin,
I am not fully convinced of the idea, because black bands apper so dark that can't be darker in both photos, included that where both the colors of the patches appear very light. Dark brown should be comparable to the color of the background, that should be AE-19f. I don't think that they have completely overpainted a so good camouflage color. The reason because the background of the nose appears lighter than the plane on the background is unclear, I wonder if it's simply more faded. Regards Massimo Title: Re: Other bad painting Post by: KL on September 14, 2012, 12:23:17 AM I agree that plane wasn't completely overpainted with 4BO. More I look and think about this, there wasn't any 4BO... Why would they waste paint and time to repaint green with very similar green. Those two were different in theory, A-19f was decodable, 4BO nondecodable, but in the field they would look too close...
Anyway, I think now that there is only one green, i.e. original, factory A-19f. Dark brown 6K should look dark gray on b/w photos. on some (more contrast) photos it does look black. Finally, there is a posibility that two dark paints were used: black and dark brown Only two posibilities: - 3-colour scheme: A-19f, 6K and 7K - 3 and a half scheme: A-19f, 6K, 7K and black regards, KL Title: Re: Other bad painting Post by: Massimo Tessitori on December 28, 2012, 10:05:09 PM Another bad painting.
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/il-2/il2-camo/il2-1942/9redstrange/9fant.jpg) (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/il-2/il2-camo/il2-1942/9redstrange/9fant2m.jpg) (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/il-2/il2-camo/il2-1942/9redstrange/il2-sp-fl-aml-3view-col-z18-red9strange.jpg) Regards Massimo Title: Re: Other bad painting Post by: Massimo Tessitori on January 02, 2017, 08:57:37 AM Hi,
I've updated the page on Il-2 of early 1941. http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/il-2/il2-camo/il-2early1941/il2-early1941.htm (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/il-2/il2-camo/il-2early1941/il2-early1941.htm) New photos have emerged on this plane, so it was clear that the improvised camouflage consisted of many shades, and that its bort number was 2 on the rudder, not visible on previous images. Thanks to Vitaliy Timoshenko for his help. (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/il-2/il2-camo/il-2early1941/il2-sp-fm-amv-3view-darkblotches.jpg) Regards Massimo Title: Re: Other bad painting Post by: learstang on January 02, 2017, 08:10:32 PM Wow! That is unusual - I do like that scheme!
Regards, Jason |