Sovietwarplanes

Great Patriotic War Aviation => Lavochkins => Topic started by: 66misos on October 15, 2012, 03:34:48 PM



Title: Winter camo on Galchenko's LaGG-3
Post by: 66misos on October 15, 2012, 03:34:48 PM
Hi,

I am just before applying the winter camo on my kit of Galchenko's LaGG-3 Early in 1:48.
Basic camo example is on the www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com  (http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com) and this one repeats on the every other profile and/or kit painting instructions:
(http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lagg3/galachenko/galachenko1above.jpg)
This winter camo is similiar for winter 41/42 and 42/43. Only difference is "space" for victory stars on the left fuselage behind canopy and white stripe on the left canopy window.

I tried to collect all possible photos and screenshots from videos:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/LaGG-3/Galchenko16b.jpg)
and result shows a bit different white patterns.

As Massimo's profiles are similiar for winter 41/42 and 42/42, I also took all pictures from both winters and applied them to Massimo's summer profile. I hope there is no problem with copyright.
Here is the result:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/LaGG-3/Galchenko16a.jpg)
- white patterns are painted according to the pictures,
- yellow patterns are only estimated because they are either not visible (right wing) or there is light reflection (left wing),
- white areas seems to be painted by hand brush, not airbrushed.

Any comments and photos correcting or confiming my observations are more than welcome. I would like to avoid to paint another nonsense camo after my I-16  :)
Thank you in advance.

Regards,
     66misos




Title: Re: Winter camo on Galchenko's LaGG-3
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on October 15, 2012, 06:21:51 PM
Hi Misos,
your work looks interesting, my recostruction of the pattern on uppersurfaces was based on the black repaintings of the spring 1942, but the screenshots show well some parts as the tail and right leading edge.
On the left side, the available photos  are thought to be of the following winter. I suppose that we can take them in absence of different indications, even if it's not guaranteed that the pattern was the sam,e, where not coincident with the summer pattern.
I suggest to assume faded black, that is dark grey, instead of dark green on the pattern.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Winter camo on Galchenko's LaGG-3
Post by: 66misos on October 16, 2012, 10:30:10 AM
Hi Massimo,
thanks for reply. However
Quote
Posted on: October 15, 2012, 06:21:51 PM Massimo Tessitori 
...I suggest to assume faded black, that is dark grey, instead of dark green on the pattern...

is interesting. This is what I did first - black/green camo. Even kit box art is black/green.
But there was a lot of discussion whether it is green/dark green/black or only green/black or green/brown/black etc. And your profiles preffer green/dark green/black version.

So I finally re-airbushed green over the whole kit and then freehand airbrushed very diluted black over it. Results is somewhere dark green and somewhere almost black - basic patterns according to your profiles.
I used AKAN acrylics.

Here are some pictures of my kit after gloss coat prepared for decals and further steps.
I appologize for picture quality. I made them with my mobile phone before I left to my work this morning :)
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/LaGG-3/Galch_01c.jpg)

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/LaGG-3/Galch_02b.jpg)

I am not sure I have patience enough to repaint it again to green/black.  >:(
Massimo, didn't you consider to update some of your profiles at your mig3.sovietwarplanes page?

Regards,
     66misos



Title: Re: Winter camo on Galchenko's LaGG-3
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on October 16, 2012, 04:08:55 PM
Hi Misos,
thinned black over green is credible, I would leave it so.
Yes, there are many pages of the old ones that could be modified. I'll do it some day.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Winter camo on Galchenko's LaGG-3
Post by: KL on October 16, 2012, 04:55:52 PM
thinned black over green is credible...

I would be interested to see a proof for thinned/semy-transparent/transparent black paint.  ::)  Black paint on the LaGG-3 fragment preserved at Vesivehmaa is solid matt black.

(http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4106/5024985043_01cfcfded8.jpg)

Green-dark green camouflage scheme never existed.   :)

Regards,
KL


Title: Re: Winter camo on Galchenko's LaGG-3
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on October 16, 2012, 06:10:26 PM
It's only one possible explanation. Let's keep in mind that the plane of Galchenko has not a standard painting, was subject to many repaintings and it is even possible that it came out of factory with a solid green livery, as shown on some profile of a plane of the same unit of which I haven't photos. The piece of plane preserved in Veesiveehma is not the same one, and has a recognizable factory pattern. Thinned black over green was described on some piece of TB-3 in some museum, I don't remember if Finnish or Monino.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Winter camo on Galchenko's LaGG-3
Post by: KL on October 16, 2012, 07:40:04 PM
It's only one possible explanation. Let's keep in mind that the plane of Galchenko has not a standard painting, was subject to many repaintings and it is even possible that it came out of factory with a solid green livery, as shown on some profile of a plane of the same unit of which I haven't photos. The piece of plane preserved in Veesiveehma is not the same one, and has a recognizable factory pattern. , I don't remember if Finnish or Monino.

"Thinned black over green on some piece of TB-3 in some museum" is less relevant than LaGG-3 fragment in original factory colours.

I agree that Galchenko's LaGG-3 may not have been painted in standard June 1941 scheme.  But your web page doesn't provide any other paint options, your starting point is field applied Green-Dark Green scheme.
I also understand that at the time when page was created (in 2005), Green-Dark Green scheme was considered as plausible thanks to the "research" of a certain author.

Regards,
KL


Title: Re: Winter camo on Galchenko's LaGG-3
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on October 16, 2012, 08:55:13 PM
The question with Galchenko's plane is not only a question of pattern, I think that it was delivered before the war in green and then updated on the field. So, a fragment of LaGG with the factory camouflage is not more relevant than other fragments.
It is possible that the first bands were black and later faded, but look at the fresh black repaintings: they are not overposed to the supposed faded black bands, but largely  to green. So, shades of black become very abundant. It's not impossible, of course, but it should at least leave some doubt.
Green-dark green camouflage is not between the standards, but to say that it never existed is a different thing, also because it was described by some veterans on interviews about La-5 and Pe-2. Are they wrong? Perhaps. Or perhaps not.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Winter camo on Galchenko's LaGG-3
Post by: 66misos on October 16, 2012, 09:06:53 PM
Hi KL,
there is a profile of LaGG-3 series 1 "White 54" from the same 145th IAP flown by cpt. Alexandr Zaicev in the Osprey book "Lagg & Lavochkin Aces of World War 2". This "white 54" has overall green camo without any black bands or blotches.

When looking at b/w photos of Galchenko's plane several different colors can be distihguishable. Green plus something else. And that "something else" does not resemble nothing like standard NKAP scheme, nothing like black bands visible on latter Yaks or Lavochkins.

I do not say that Soviets used highly diluted or thinned black or special dark green color. I just think they used standard black sprayed in the field conditions over green applied in the factory, but at least in this Galchenko's case they improvised a bit in terms of shape and number of black layers during the war outbreak chaos.
Sprayed color is translucent (visible on the overpainted red star behind the cat on the rudder of Galchenko's plane) and it requires several layers/coats to be saturated. Very same like kit airbrushing. But because of modeller paints and airbrush characteristics it is easier to use the color a bit more thinned, e.g. more translucent than in real life.
My goal (and I think also their goal) was not to paint nice dark green, but to break overall green with black areas, but sprayed fast, not enough layers, resulting in something between black and dark green.

Regards,
     66misos


Title: Re: Winter camo on Galchenko's LaGG-3
Post by: KL on October 16, 2012, 09:59:00 PM
The question with Galchenko's plane is not only a question of pattern, I think that it was delivered before the war in green and then updated on the field. So, a fragment of LaGG with the factory camouflage is not more relevant than other fragments.

It is obvious that Galchenko's LaGG-3 wasn't painted in standard June 1941 scheme...  It's a question of paints that were used in factory before the war and in the field in 1941/42.  AMT paints are very likely used at one point.  Vesivehmaa LaGG-3 fragment is the largest and best preserved specimen of the Black-Green scheme so it is relevant for this plane.

Vesivehmaa fragment shows (or proofs) that AMT paints were not transparent, even when sprayed very thinly.  As I mentioned before, black AMT-6 paint is solid.  Same with Yak-3 in Paris:  dark gray AMT-12 camouflage is sprayed very thinly, but it's not transparent.
Those are the facts.  Fading, transparent paints etc are only your guessing.

Regards,
KL


Title: Re: Winter camo on Galchenko's LaGG-3
Post by: 66misos on October 17, 2012, 12:00:17 AM
Hi KL,

I do not mean that those colors were principally transparent like some modern automotive colors. I just say that if not sprayed carefully enough or not in several layers, they did not cover backgroud enough, e.g. looked translucent.
If color is sprayed in one thick layer then wet color creates drops and flows away/down, especially on the vertical surfaces. That is why it is recommended to spray one thin layer, let it dry and then spray another layer etc.

Also article "Painting of newly-built Soviet warplanes, June 1941- September 1943" at http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/1941-43/1941-43.html (http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/1941-43/1941-43.html) says: "...The directive said to repaint the upper and side surfaces of silver and grey planes with two layers of green, and then to add the black stripes..."

Here are examples when (re-)painting was not done carefully enough:

1.) the red star behind the cat on the Galchenko's plane:
(http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lagg3/galachenko/galacatblr.jpg)

2.) particularly red outline over different background (from P-39):
(http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/photoreports/blenheim2001/p39007.jpg)

Regards,
     66misos



Title: Re: Winter camo on Galchenko's LaGG-3
Post by: KL on October 17, 2012, 01:43:12 AM
I just say that dark AMT paints had very good coverage - today they would be sold as "one coat" paints.  Vesivehmaa Lagg-3 fragment represents a vertical surface and I am pretty sure black AMT-6 was sprayed as one coat.

If color is sprayed in one thick layer then wet color creates drops and flows away/down, especially on the vertical surfaces. That is why it is recommended to spray one thin layer, let it dry and then spray another layer etc.

For what I know, no such recommendation for AMT-6...

(http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lagg3/galachenko/galacatblr.jpg)

You should note reflection of cat's paw on the horizontal stabilizer - this may indicate glossy AII paints...

(http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/photoreports/blenheim2001/p39007.jpg)

Your P-39 is preserved at the AAA museum in Tusula.  White disc is probablly filled with blue-green oil paint - this paint is not relevant for wooden LaGG-3.
Gray-green border around the red star is a mistery paint - this paint can be seen on several fragments in finish museums, both metal and fabric...

Regards,
KL


Title: Re: Winter camo on Galchenko's LaGG-3
Post by: 66misos on October 17, 2012, 02:22:26 AM
Hi KL,

yes, you are right, Galchenko's early LaGG-3 is quite glossy, also on this picture:
(http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lagg3/galachenko/gala-win1.jpg)

I used AKAN AII Green and AII Blue as a basic and then thinned AMT-6 for upper surface dark color.
I am just finished applying decals and going to sleep. Here is 2:21AM now  ;)

Regards,
     66misos


Title: Re: Winter camo on Galchenko's LaGG-3
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on October 17, 2012, 08:35:55 AM
Hi,
the general look of the plane is semigloss.
(http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lagg3/galachenko/galachenkoallm2r.jpg)
I think that the original paints were AII, then the add-on later ones perhaps were the same, even if it's a bit strange because some repaintings should be of late 1942.
I's interesting to see that the square area covering the numbers is not the darkest one, and certainly it is not faded, although it's likely the latest repainting  visible on the photo. So it's not absurd to think that it could be some shade of green, maybe obtained by mixing paints.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Winter camo on Galchenko's LaGG-3
Post by: KL on October 17, 2012, 09:19:18 AM
Galchenko's LaGG was glossy (more or less):

(http://fotohis.ru/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Y8BWCRL53YM.jpg)

(http://vif2ne.ru/nvi/forum/files/Nic1979-m/(110220141649)_Gal_chenko.jpg)

I would try to avoid mixed paints theory - anything is possible when you start mixing paints.
KL


Title: Re: Winter camo on Galchenko's LaGG-3
Post by: 66misos on October 17, 2012, 10:39:22 AM
Hi,
the general look of the plane was glossy enough to reflect cat's paws or Galchenko himself on the horizontal stabilizer as visible also on those prictures.
Photo also shows that plane surface was in a quite good conditions, repainted quite often. Not enough time for colors to fade significantly.

Some time ago I thougt that repainting done in 1942 could have been done with new AMT colors when old AII were already discontinued that time. When airbrushed AKAN acrylics, that square area (AMT-4) was lighter than background (AII Green) while photo shows square area darker than background. AMT-4 was not the right choice.
I saw a profile (I think it was in some Osprey book) where the square area covering the numbers was even brown ;-)

There was a lot of improvisation in the case of Galchenko's plane - no stars on fuselage or rudder, latter no stars even on the underwings, board number ovepainted, bands of the dark color do not follow any official NKAP scheme, etc.
So, now I tend to think that in 1941 they used black and/or also improvised black+AII green mixture while in 1942 black and/or improvised black+AMT-4 mixture for dark color.
Finaly, white bands of the winter camo also represents an improvisation, as shown in my first post in this topic.

As a modeller I have to make a decission at some moment and to paint the kit somehow. Even if one choice is only a bit more probable than other (51:49).
Unfortunately my experience shows that new, important info appears just after the kit is finished :'(
That's why I rather submit the winter camo alternative to discussion before I apply it on the kit.
Thank you again for your imputs.

Regards,
     66misos


Title: Re: Winter camo on Galchenko's LaGG-3
Post by: AC26 on October 17, 2012, 07:58:39 PM
thinned black over green is credible...

I would be interested to see a proof for thinned/semy-transparent/transparent black paint.  ::)  Black paint on the LaGG-3 fragment preserved at Vesivehmaa is solid matt black.
Hello gentz,

I agree with KL as eyewitness of the mentioned part but like to add with that the black has slightly bluish hue.

Cheers,

AaCee


Title: Re: Winter camo on Galchenko's LaGG-3
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on October 17, 2012, 08:17:28 PM
Bluish... interesting. Thank you for having written this.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Winter camo on Galchenko's LaGG-3
Post by: KL on October 17, 2012, 08:32:30 PM
Hi 66misos,
IMHO, better forget dark green...  It's a relict of those times when people believed Pilawskii...  ;D
Nowdays we know that most planes interpreted as green-brown or green-dark green were in reality painted according to the 1941 black-green scheme.

Contrast between black and green paint doesn't have to be high on b/w photos - Massimo didn't have any problems to identify black-green scheme even when contrast between colours was low:

(http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lagg3/captured/outline5foto.jpg)

(http://waralbum.ru/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/07062009i16.jpg)

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i16/i16painting/template.jpg)

Galchenko's LaGG-3 could be one of those prewar planes that were camouflaged in summer 1941 with black fields. June 1941 order also required to modify markings:  tail stars were added and wing stars were overpainted.  Presence of tail stars on Galchenko's LaGG confirms that those who camouflaged the plane had been familiar with the order.

If Galchenko's plane was a prewar machine, it was painted with glossy AII Green.

(http://img.wp.scn.ru/camms/ar/377/pics/1_62.jpg)
(http://img.wp.scn.ru/camms/ar/377/pics/1_13.jpg)

AII Green was somewhat darker than green shown on profiles.  It should look like MiG-3 wing displayed at the Vesivehmaa museum:

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/VVS%20colours/AIIZFS3095Mig-3Finland.jpg)

AII Green was darker than AMT-4!!!  Akan paints don't show difference between those two paints - they are tonaly too close and they are both matt.
Following photo shows both paints side by side:  Lagg-3 fuselage is painted with matt AMT-4, Mig-3 wing in background is glossy AII Green (too much reflection from the flash, but you got an idea)  :)

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2172/2266952985_a2cd3f85fb_z.jpg)  



Title: Re: Winter camo on Galchenko's LaGG-3
Post by: 66misos on October 17, 2012, 10:39:26 PM
Hi KL,

thanks for pictures. You write that
Quote
AII Green was darker than AMT-6!!!  Akan paints don't show difference between those two paints - they are tonaly too close and they are both matt.
Following photo shows both paints side by side:  Lagg-3 fuselage is painted with matt AMT-6, Mig-3 wing in background is glossy AII Green (too much reflection from the flash, but you got an idea)

Do you really mean AMT-6 Black or AMT-4 Green? I am not sure that AII Green is darker than black  ???

Anyway, this is my "sample box" of some basic AKAN acrylics - airbrushed directly from bottles, not thinned:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/LaGG-3/AIIGreenvsAMT-4.jpg)
Photo made a minute ago with my mobile, so it is not hard refference. Important is only quite remarkable difference between AII Blue vs. AMT-7 and AII Green vs. AMT-4.

My LaGG-3 is already pained and with decals. So I am gonna assume that black is new black and that diluted black (with green hue) is faded black ;) Finally, most of that "faded" black will disappeared after the winter camo is painted. The only question is what are the shapes and dimensions of that white areas - fundamental question of this topic.

Regards,
     66misos


Title: Re: Winter camo on Galchenko's LaGG-3
Post by: learstang on October 17, 2012, 10:43:40 PM
It may not be a hard reference, but it's still an interesting photograph, 66misos - thank you for posting!  Is that dark colour above the greens AMT-6 Black or AMT-12 Dark Grey?  That is a remarkable difference between the blues - I have to say that the blues I've used on my VVS models look more like AKAN's AII Blue.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Winter camo on Galchenko's LaGG-3
Post by: KL on October 17, 2012, 10:44:09 PM
 :-[ Ups... I meant olive green AMT-4...  :-[
I was trying to explain difference between pre-1941 AII Green and post-1941 AMT-4 green...
KL

PS:  I have corrected post above  :).
Your AII green and AMT-4 are tonally different enough.  the only difference not visible on your photo is how glossy is AII Green.


Title: Re: Winter camo on Galchenko's LaGG-3
Post by: 66misos on October 17, 2012, 10:53:16 PM
Hi Jason,

upper left quadrant is AMT-11, upper right quadrant is AMT-12. And AMT-12 is separated from green colors by AMT-6 Black - to directly compare AMT-12 vs. Black and AII Green vs. AMT-4 and them both vs. Black.
I found this CD box quite practical. When it is closed, nothing damage colors while colors are still visible.

Regards,
     66misos


Title: Re: Winter camo on Galchenko's LaGG-3
Post by: learstang on October 17, 2012, 10:58:19 PM
Clever about the CD box (I may have to try it myself).  I can see now where the AMT-6 is - I thought it was a shadow.  Now, of course, I can see that it isn't.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Winter camo on Galchenko's LaGG-3
Post by: Troy Smith on October 21, 2012, 02:26:14 AM

I agree with KL as eyewitness of the mentioned part but like to add with that the black has slightly bluish hue.


Perhaps worth noting the RAF colour Night had a high ultramarine pigment,
http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=51600&#entry545189
Quote
'Night' was a mix of carbon black and ultramarine. Exactly the same combination of pigments used by the Japanese Navy to paint the blue-black Zero cowlings, so Japanese "cowling colour" is a good option.
AKAN AMT-6 is a blue hued black as well.




Contrast between black and green paint doesn't have to be high on b/w photos - Massimo didn't have any problems to identify black-green scheme even when contrast between colours was low:

(http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lagg3/captured/outline5foto.jpg)

Hmm, note how the stars appear darker than the black, I wonder if this is taken with orthochromatic film? 
If you have ever seen a pic of a British aircraft which shows roundel red as darker than the blue, it's a result of this.
Also yellow appears as black. This Tornado prototype has yellow undersides, as well as a yellow 'P' marking.
(http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/fww2/tornado/tornado-3.jpg)

I mention this as a blue hued black could possibly appear lighter as result.

Hope of interest even if a little off topic.
T


Title: Re: Winter camo on Galchenko's LaGG-3
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on October 21, 2012, 07:58:38 AM
Hi Troy,
certainly it is interesting. Red stars appear of all the possible shades of grey on bw photos, from white to black. It's certainly an effect of the film and filter utilized.
The most mysterious case is when two red stars on the same photo of the same plane appear of very different colors, and one wonders if they  both are red or one is of a completely different color.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Winter camo on Galchenko's LaGG-3
Post by: 66misos on January 15, 2013, 09:39:10 AM
Hi,
here is a screenshot from document movie showing how Galchenko polishes his cat on the LaGG-3 tail.
Picture nicely shows details of the cat but also repaired area above the cat and part of the tail bellow/behind the cat painted with some lighter color:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/LaGG-3/Galchenko18b.jpg)

Massimo profile shows repaired area on the oposite side of the tail painted with yellow color:
(http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lagg3/galachenko/galachenko1pl.jpg)

Have you any idea/suggestion of what color could be that lighter paint on the tail? Red? Yellow? It does not look like light/shadow.
Thanks in advance.

Regards,
     66misos


Title: Re: Winter camo on Galchenko's LaGG-3
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on January 15, 2013, 04:07:23 PM
Hi Misos,
thank you for the clean screenshot.
About the lighter dot, it seems on the trim tab. So it could be that:
it was repainted in green or red (do you see this on other photos?)
it was moved and under a different light.
I don't think that it' the shadow of Galchenko himself, all other shadows are much more blurried.


Title: Re: Winter camo on Galchenko's LaGG-3
Post by: 66misos on January 15, 2013, 05:34:01 PM
Hi Massimo,
here are another pictures:

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/LaGG-3/PictMix02.jpg)
I took your profile and flipped it to get the tail in the same position.
Marked lighter area has the same shape, position and color regardless Galchenko's movement. It seems to be painted trim on the rudder.
It does not look like something painted accidentally (e.g. repair), so I do not think that it is green (AMT-4?). Could it be red? The photo is from winter 1941/42.

(http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lagg3/galachenko/galacatblr.jpg)
Repaired areas have quite different color than green/black background. Could it be yellowish nitroputty primer, roughly repainted black or AII green?

Regards,
    66misos


Title: Re: Winter camo on Galchenko's LaGG-3
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on January 15, 2013, 06:29:07 PM
Hi Misos,
those rounds are all behind the hinges of the rudder. Who knows if they all were replaced?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Winter camo on Galchenko's LaGG-3
Post by: 66misos on January 16, 2013, 01:05:32 PM
Hi Massimo,
you are right about those rounds on the tail - it is painted material (fabric) covering the hinges on the both sides of the rudder.

I check another pictures about that lighter area - possibly trimmer on rudder.
Rudder with the black cat (summer 1942/43) does not have it:
(http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lagg3/galachenko/galacatblr.jpg)

And on this photo:
(http://vif2ne.ru/nvi/forum/files/Nic1979-m/(110220141649)_Gal_chenko.jpg)
neither those rounds nor remnant of the star are so evident. Unfortunately rudder trim is not visible.

Galchenko let painted out also stars on the fuselage, e.g. except tiny star on the spinner there is nothing painted red. He used only white color for decoration (cat) and winter camo. That trimmer is not so bright as cat so it is not painted white.

In this context and with your idea "Who knows if they all were replaced?" I will not paint it red and yet probably green AMT-4.
There will be visible color difference between trimmer and surrounding area and as it is only a small area there will not be problem to repaint it in the future if new ideas/evidence appears. I already want to finish my kit finally ;)

regards,
     66misos


Title: Re: Winter camo on Galchenko's LaGG-3
Post by: 66misos on January 31, 2013, 04:34:28 PM
Hi,
my LaGG-3 in 1:48 from ICM flown by Galchenko is finally finished.

The model is airbrushed with AKAN Acrylics AII Green and AII Blue, A-14 for interior, should be silver. Thinned black is airbrushed over green resulting to black green-to black areas.

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/LaGG-3/130130_LaGG-3_02.jpg)

White is handbrushed Revell Matt White Enamel. Photos show that white is not painted over big solid areas but smaller blotches. After drying (2 days) sanded with 1000/2000 sand paper to get smooth and not so homogeneous surface - as visible on the photos:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/LaGG-3/Galchenko16b.jpg)

Tamiya Panel Line Accent Color (different mixes of black/brown and grey) and MIG pigments used for weathering.
Eduard PE parts were used for interior and exterior details and Eduard Mask for painting canopy. AML Decals are used for marking.

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/LaGG-3/130130_LaGG-3_07.jpg)

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/LaGG-3/130130_LaGG-3_08.jpg)

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/LaGG-3/130130_LaGG-3_13.jpg)

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/LaGG-3/130130_LaGG-3_10.jpg)

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/LaGG-3/130130_LaGG-3_18.jpg)

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/LaGG-3/130130_LaGG-3_15.jpg)

It is interesting that AII Green color looks very dark, almost black on the white (light) background on the kit photos, similar to the real plane on the snow.
When building this kit I started to like overall shapes of LaGG-3 more and more. I also like that winter camouflage looks unlike all other kits of Galchenko's plane. I hope you like it too ;)

Regards,
     66misos


Title: Re: Winter camo on Galchenko's LaGG-3
Post by: learstang on January 31, 2013, 05:42:06 PM
Very nice, 66misos!  I'm working on this same aeroplane in 1/72nd scale.  I'm also finishing up Galchenko's La-5F, also in 1/72nd scale.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Winter camo on Galchenko's LaGG-3
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on January 31, 2013, 07:12:30 PM
Hi Misos,
nice model again. Good work researching additional images of the winter paint.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Winter camo on Galchenko's LaGG-3
Post by: B_Realistic on February 01, 2013, 04:12:36 PM
Very well made. :D


Title: Re: Winter camo on Galchenko's LaGG-3
Post by: 66misos on February 16, 2013, 12:40:57 PM
Hi,
I posted pictures of my kit and b/w screenshots at scalemodels.ru with following remarks (quotations):

1.) Your version of the horizontal surfaces camouflage is based on two pictures of stabilizer. Did you think about where the legs grow from and why they usually used a solid (white) camouflage in the central sectors of the front and spotted (white) camouflage in the north front sectors, against science?

2.) There is a version that the VVS taken part in the Finish campaign received instruction about winter camouflage, adopted at the beginning of the year 1940. Some number of aircrafts had to get large-spotted white color over the solid green color.
IMHO only this could explain (over-)painting :-\ particularly black areas in standard camouflage scheme in 1941, although the well-known (theoretic) works about the winter camouflage, including Burch and Keleynikov, recommended to keep mainly achromatic colors for winter camouflage.
VVS in the Central Front did not apply this instruction.

3.) Science should leave unpainted black fields.

I am not sure whether I correctly understand all that. Could anybody provide more detailed explanation, especially about black painting/repainting? Thank you in advance.

Regards,
     66misos


Title: Re: Winter camo on Galchenko's LaGG-3
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on February 16, 2013, 12:54:09 PM
Hi Misos,
I dont't understand: what is Science?
I have photos of one or two Li-2s in 1942 or 43 that have the white bands where there should be green bands, leaving black and green. But I have more photos of Il-2 where the white paint covers the black parts leaving green visible, and even more photos of different planes where white covered indifferently black and green surfaces.
I have never heard of Burch and Keleynikov. Who were them?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Winter camo on Galchenko's LaGG-3
Post by: KL on February 16, 2013, 05:47:47 PM
I dont't understand: what is Science?
...
I have never heard of Burch and Keleynikov. Who were them?

In 1920es and 1930es a lot of effort was invested into development of effective camouflage.  Scientists (some of them academicians) and engineers studied colours and various patterns.  So, there is some theory behind VVS camouflage colours and schemes.

You should heave heard for Yevgeniy Burche - he developed and tested few camouflage schemes for Soviet Air Force in 20es and 30es.

Regards,
KL

PS;  Forget Nadia Bukhanova, or factories competing who will make more original camouflage scheme.  The true story was very different.


Title: Re: Winter camo on Galchenko's LaGG-3
Post by: 66misos on February 16, 2013, 06:21:28 PM
Hi KL,
thanx for history background. However, what was the point of that science? I mean white vs. green vs. black and all that related to Galchenko's LaGG-3 from winter 41/42.

regards,
     66misos


Title: Re: Winter camo on Galchenko's LaGG-3
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on February 16, 2013, 10:19:47 PM
Burche... I think to have read something. The guy that made experimental dotted camouflages on biplanes?
Many planes were camouflaged with white winter paints at the units, and it seems that they have never known his studies, in fact all the possibilities written before can be found on photos.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Winter camo on Galchenko's LaGG-3
Post by: 66misos on March 28, 2013, 11:05:13 AM
Hi,
yesterday snow felt here again :'(
I decided to make some photos to examine how effective or ineffective was this camouflage. Imagine the grass replaced by forrest or by a see with flowing pieces of ice...
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/LaGG-3/130331_LaGG-3overterrain_zps88ad461d.jpg)

I think it was not so bad.

     66misos


Title: Re: Winter camo on Galchenko's LaGG-3
Post by: B_Realistic on March 28, 2013, 12:08:14 PM
It gives another perspective. :D
We had our last snow tuesday. :-\
It's very unusual to have some snow this time of year.
It seems that a High pressure from the North is getting the most part of Europe in a cold grip.


Title: Re: Winter camo on Galchenko's LaGG-3
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 24, 2013, 09:49:58 AM
Hi Misos,
I'vefound a good movie (possibly the same that you've already seen) and made some screenshots.
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lagg3/galachenko/front-smow.jpg)
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lagg3/galachenko/leftwing-snow.jpg)
This encourages to think that the left wing was widely painted white on its outer part.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Winter camo on Galchenko's LaGG-3
Post by: 66misos on May 24, 2013, 11:12:41 AM
Hi Massimo,
thanks for very nice screenshots :) Another bricks to the overall mosaic of the winter camo on Galchenko's LaGG-3. Could you, please, post the link to that video, if possible?

IMHO it fits my picture from the beginning of this thread:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/LaGG-3/Galchenko16a.jpg)

while reflection in the wing prevents to finally decide whether there was only one big white are on the very left side of the wing (e.g. total 3 big blotches), or several smaller blotches (same pattern or logic as on the horizontal stabilizers) like on my kit:

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/LaGG-3/130130_LaGG-3_13.jpg)
Just to paint white closer to/over leading edge of the wing.

Regards,
    66misos


Title: Re: Winter camo on Galchenko's LaGG-3
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 24, 2013, 12:28:44 PM
Hi Misos,
the link, received from AR, is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvA5T48Ff94&list=PLCdwQDWwZXDUMEyJd15rUOSS4NK8DuVku (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvA5T48Ff94&list=PLCdwQDWwZXDUMEyJd15rUOSS4NK8DuVku)
Includes many other things, as unseen images of winter MiG-3, images of P-39s of 16 GIAP etc.
About the reconstruction of the winter painting of Galchenko's plane, I am always of the idea that this later photo can give useful indications.
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lagg3/galachenko/galachenkoallm2r.jpg)
Here we see three shades, and in my earlier drawing it was supposed that the intermediate one was a remain of a pre-winter camouflage. But they could be four ones: an early green one, faded black on the nose and tail, fresh black and fresh green. Fresh green and old black could be undistinguishable on this photo except for the glossy finish were visible.  Fresh paint could cover the surfaces where the old one was ruined by the winter finish.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Winter camo on Galchenko's LaGG-3
Post by: 66misos on May 24, 2013, 02:59:16 PM
Hi Massimo,

left wing white painting on my picture and kit is based on the left bottom picture:

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/LaGG-3/Galchenko16b.jpg)

I know that photos are from two different winters, but white painting from both winters visible on horizontal stabilizers and left wing upper surface show same blotched style. And right wing leading edge show also blotched style rather than one big solid white area.

Regards,
     66misos


Title: Re: Winter camo on Galchenko's LaGG-3
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 24, 2013, 07:33:32 PM
Hi Misos, I see, two blotches are visible on the left wingroot.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Winter camo on Galchenko's LaGG-3
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on July 25, 2015, 10:16:18 AM
Hi Misos, hi all,
I think it's time to reopen the topic. Some new screenshots, and a new look to those posted by Misos, seem to suggest that some other things have to be modified.
These screenshots are, chronologically, the first known images of this LaGG-3:
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lagg3/galachenko/winter.jpg)
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lagg3/galachenko/winternose.jpg)
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lagg3/galachenko/front-smow.jpg)
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lagg3/galachenko/window.jpg)

What do we see different from my old drawings, apart for the already discussed white blotches on the tail (well visible in images posted by Misos) and on the wings (still largely hypothetical, but probably more complex than on the drawing)?
Well, a difference is that the plane had a retractable tail wheel since the date of this movie. At this point, there is no evidence that it came out of the factory in different way.
Another thing is that the strange white painting on the left side window looks a repair with adhesive tape. This tape continues on the right side, close to the rear edge of the cockpit opening.
Another thing is that the red star on the spinner looks missing. One can't be sure, but I can't see evidence of it nor in the photo with a rotating spinner, nor on that with the stopped one.
The photo shows also fast locks on the lower panel of the nose, as on photos of the same plane datable in fall 1942. No evidence that this piece has been replaced, then.


(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lagg3/galachenko/gala-win1.jpg)
According to an hypothetical datation, this image could be of February or March 1942, successive to the movie. It shows the red star on the spinner, but also a sliding canopy. White blotches aren't evident, but we can suppose they were there because the ground is still snowy.

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lagg3/galachenko/gala-fly2.jpg)
The images of the summer/spring seem to show the complete deletion of red stars from the wing undersurfaces too, and the presence on the spinner. The repair with adhesive tape was gone.

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lagg3/galachenko/Lagg3%20Galchenko%20with%20stars.jpg)
This image, hypothetically datable in fall 1942, shows the victory marks on the fuselage, a change in the painting of the rear part of the spinner, the small hammer and sickle on the wheel door and the old style exhaust stack.

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lagg3/galachenko/galchenko2w.jpg)
This is supposed to be the last photo of this plane: looks as the previous one, apart for the white blotches that leave the victory stars uncovered, and a later type of exhaust pipes divided into three parts. No more hammer and sickle.

Now, at http://airaces.narod.ru/all2/galchenk.htm (http://airaces.narod.ru/all2/galchenk.htm) there is written:
Quote
Гальченко, хотя уже и командовал полком, не жалея себя летал наравне с молодыми пилотами. И снова полёты, полёты. Бои, перегрузки... Однажды, после напряжённого боя, не смог вылезти из кабины - отказали ноги, болью сковало сердце. Друзья вынесли его на руках. Но беда не приходит одна: вскоре у него резко упало зрение...

Госпиталь. Горькие думы. Война, а он не у дел. Как - то приехал Виктор Миронов. "Разрешите летать на вашей машине. Пусть немцы не думают, что наш командир не может подняться в воздух". Леонид разрешил - не хотел обидеть боевого товарища, - но с болью в душе: боялся за его жизнь - за машиной с чёрной кошкой немцы охотились давно... Его опасения подтвердились: самолёт был подбит в воздухе и Виктору пришлось воспользоваться парашютом. Когда Миронов вновь появился в госпитале, Леонид, считавший его погибшим, не сдержался, заплакал от радости, а потом приказал: "Кошку нарисуйте на всех самолётах !.."

and an automatic translation:
Quote
Gal'chenko, though it has commanded a regiment, not sparing himself flew on a par with the young pilots. Again, flights, flying. Fights, overload ... One day, after a hard fight, could not get out of the cabin - not walk pain befall heart. Friends carried him in her arms. But the trouble did not come alone: ​​he soon fell sharply vision ...

Hospital. The bitter thought. The war, and he did not have affairs. How - that came Victor Mironov. "Allow me to fly on your machine. Let the Germans do not think that our commander can not get up in the air." Leonid allowed - do not want to offend comrade - but the pain in my soul: he feared for his life - the car with a black cat Germans hunted for a long time ... His fears were confirmed: the plane was shot down in the air, and Victor had to use a parachute. When Mironov reappeared in the hospital, Leonid, who thought he was dead, could not restrain himself, he wept with joy, and then ordered: "Cat draw on all planes! .."

So, it seems that the plane was lost when flown by Mironov. It's unclear when this happened, but the text seems to suggest the late summer or fall 1942 for his recovery. If so, the last winter photo could be of another LaGG-3 painted to match the previous one.
The order to draw cats on all planes looks to have never been executed, else we should have seen lots of photos of them.

Any thoughts?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Winter camo on Galchenko's LaGG-3
Post by: KL on July 26, 2015, 05:27:03 AM

Pilawskii has recently posted his analysis at  http://www.redbanner.co.uk/History/ace_aircraft/Galchenko/Galchenko_Las.html
It looks that his order of events and photos is very different from what we previously thought...

Any comments?

Regards,
KL


Title: Re: Winter camo on Galchenko's LaGG-3
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on July 26, 2015, 08:51:31 AM
A lot of confusion.
For the LaGG-3: the three-pipes exhaust started to be produced in June 1942, it's simply impossible that a LaGG-3 had them in winter 1941.
Besides, it is clearly identificable on photos an accumulation of modifications. For example, at first there was a white number, then we see a darker patch. First we don't see a star on the spinner (seems), then the star appears. First there are not victory starlets, then they appear. First there are old exaust stacks, then newer stacks appear in what is clearly the last photo of the chronology.
For what I've read, he has inverted this chronology as if element disappear without leaving a trace when time passed and the pilot became more famous.
For the La-5, he draws it with green-black painting. Green-black planes had all a black rounded blotch on the sides of the fuselage, under or behind the red star, and we can't see it (at least on the clearest of two photos, that is chronologically the first one because it has less repaintings and decorative elements). Besides green-black camo should extend under the tail surfaces.
Yes, the camouflage on the photo appears dark, but the type of film or filter can justify this.
One could even suggest that Galchenko ordered to repaint his plane in black and green to match its earlier LaGG-3, but there are not proofs of this. Certainly this is not a factory applied black-green camouflage.
The pattern is that of grey-grey planes, plus a dark grey patch that covers the factory-applied number because Galchenko didn't want numbers on his plane, the cat was enough for the unit commander.

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Winter camo on Galchenko's LaGG-3
Post by: KL on July 31, 2015, 02:44:33 AM
Hi Massimo,
thanks for the comments.   :) As I suspected - Pilawskii is again making up things without any proofs...

The image you made seems to be an interesting case: 

(http://www.redbanner.co.uk/History/ace_aircraft/Galchenko/galachenko_spring42.jpg)

Check google image search https://www.google.ca/search?q=lagg+3&tbm=isch&tbs=simg:CAQSiwEaiAELEKjU2AQaBAgACAMMCxCwjKcIGl8KXQgDEieaBJsEjQOAAbgNfvkB7wruCosD5TnVOc850Dn4Keo51znWJuQ51SYaMJm3BzpDYyqWb5xdouQQz5ZPn03kX0qbuBNMG-XpmMrxrlwXHOsDQepR4qTM7eQFYgwLEI6u_1ggaCgoICAESBOjB-JsM&sa=X&ved=0CBoQ2A4oAWoVChMI4N2-kI-ExwIVgyqICh2UxgRO&biw=1280&bih=913#imgrc=_

Your image is used by several Russian, Polish, Japanese, and few other websites...  It's all over the internet   :D  Or, as Pilawskii says, "image is perhaps the most widely known of Gal'chenko's LaGG-3"

But, that's it if you are looking for credits, recognition etc. - Unfortunately, your name isn't directly associated with the image....

Regards,
KL


Title: Re: Winter camo on Galchenko's LaGG-3
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on July 31, 2015, 12:40:51 PM
Hi,
well, I've made the most known photo of the plane of Galchenko... it's something anyway.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Winter camo on Galchenko's LaGG-3
Post by: 66misos on August 01, 2015, 09:39:40 AM
Hi Massimo,
your summary looks very interesting, I think it is goog you are going to update winter scheme.
I was suprpised that "image perhaps the most widely known of Gal'chenko's LaGG-3" is not original photo but you made it from screenshots.

In the comparison to my previous picture, posted almost three years ago (jee, that time is running):
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/LaGG-3/Galchenko16a.jpg)

now I would made the white blotches on the left upper wing a bit bigger and closer to the wing root:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/LaGG-3/Galchenko16%20-%20zima%2042-43_zps968rvfet.jpg)
In the picture above is your original scheme overlayed (opacity 50%) with my "updated" idea. IMHO it also match darks areas quite well.
I am really curious about your updated Glachenko's winter scheme.
Regards,
    66misos


Title: Re: Winter camo on Galchenko's LaGG-3
Post by: 66misos on August 10, 2015, 06:41:28 PM
Hi,
another picture from airaces.narod.ru to the mosaic:
(http://www.airaces.narod.ru/all2/galchen10.jpg)

I wonder if this is the same period/location like this:
(http://www.airaces.narod.ru/all2/galchnk5.jpg)

regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Winter camo on Galchenko's LaGG-3
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on August 10, 2015, 08:29:05 PM
Hi Misos,
I think that it's more or less the same period, winter/spring 1942. Pity that the long shadows alterate the perception of the camo pattern on the first photo.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Winter camo on Galchenko's LaGG-3
Post by: 66misos on March 06, 2017, 09:25:55 AM
Hi,
the link to photoalbum about Galchenko was posted at scalemodels.ru http://kolanord.ru/html_public/col_war/GaljchenkoLA_fotoalbom/LoktevVP_Rvetsja-k-gorodu-Adolf_2011/assets/basic-html/page-1.html (http://kolanord.ru/html_public/col_war/GaljchenkoLA_fotoalbom/LoktevVP_Rvetsja-k-gorodu-Adolf_2011/assets/basic-html/page-1.html)

There is a photo showing a white bloch between board number and tail coming from the right side of the plane over the top:
(http://scalemodels.ru/images/2017/03/1488739874_gal4.jpg)

something like here:
(http://www.soviet-aces-1936-53.ru/books/books4/gal_zai17_b.jpg)

Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Winter camo on Galchenko's LaGG-3
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on March 06, 2017, 01:05:31 PM
Hi Misos,
really an interesting collection of photos. the page on Galchenko will be updated some day.
On this photo, I can see the stars under the wings that were not visible on other ones.
Are there comments that could change the chronology of images ofour reconstruction?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Winter camo on Galchenko's LaGG-3
Post by: 66misos on March 06, 2017, 02:24:10 PM
...Are there comments that could change the chronology of images ofour reconstruction?
Hi Massimo,
there are no additional comments regarding chronology.
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Winter camo on Galchenko's LaGG-3
Post by: Javier Planells on June 15, 2017, 02:19:50 AM
Hi folks,

Just a thought, since it's the next build beetween U-2s:could it have been painted in AMT colours and then AIIz been applied over it to create the darker fields before MK-7 was brushed on?

Always glad to receive some feedback from you on these matters.


Title: Re: Winter camo on Galchenko's LaGG-3
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 15, 2017, 07:18:24 AM
Hi Javier,
no, personally I don't think that AMT-4 is the base color. In my idea, the plane was  built before the war and the base color is AII green, that is faded for ageing. I think that the first camouflage was made with black, then it aged. Subcessive blotches were made with the same colors or a mix of them, and appear darker. The drawings of the page on the site were discussed and some updates have to be done on the white blotches on the wings, as from the photos.
Regards
Massimo