Sovietwarplanes

Great Patriotic War Aviation => Engines, ordinance, weapons and other equipments => Topic started by: Aaronw on December 03, 2012, 12:08:12 AM



Title: Soviet anti-shipping / torpedo aircraft?
Post by: Aaronw on December 03, 2012, 12:08:12 AM
Considering the relatively few number of kits available of VVS aircraft, I've noticed what seems to me to be an unusual number* equipped with torpedoes (at least in 1/72 which is where I live). I was not aware that there was even much of an anti-shipping role on the East front, can anyone shed some light on this?

*probably only 2 or 3, but considering there are only a dozen or two types available that seems a high proportion if there wasn't an active anti-shipping war


Title: Re: Soviet anti-shipping / torpedo aircraft?
Post by: learstang on December 03, 2012, 01:17:31 AM
I can speak for the Shturmovik.  There was considerable anti-shipping activity in the Black Sea.  There wasn't as much in the Baltic Sea, until later in the war, and there was some in the Arctic Ocean.  Shturmoviks were attached to the various Fleets, such as the Red Banner Fleet (Baltic Fleet), the Black Sea Fleet, and the Northern Fleet, where their main responsibility was anti-shipping activities, in addition to their normal duties providing ground support to land forces.  Contrary to some reports (and at least one kit), however, there doesn't appear to have been any Il-2's that were equipped with torpedoes.  They used their rockets, bombs, and guns to attack Axis shipping.  The Il-4 and the A-20 Boston were both equipped with torpedoes, and were used in the anti-shipping role.

Regards,

Jason  


Title: Re: Soviet anti-shipping / torpedo aircraft?
Post by: Aaronw on December 03, 2012, 03:26:46 AM
I had no idea, Thanks. 


Title: Re: Soviet anti-shipping / torpedo aircraft?
Post by: Troy Smith on December 03, 2012, 06:00:15 AM
The VVS used ex-RAF Hampdens in the Baltic,
nice big pic here
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7161/6776380363_40bb00f95f_o.jpg)

in the pic of bort #30 below, you can see the stabilising tail of the torpedo, just under the lower gunner's position. I think this is a British torpedo as well, not totally sure.
There was a specific variant of the Hampden configured to carry torpedos BTW.
(http://i44.tinypic.com/2el4mr7.jpg)

At least two Hampdens have been salvged from Russia BTW.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v634/Mark12/Album%204/HampdenP1344PL-KImagePeterArnold.jpg)
this one is being restored at the RAF museum, note original RAF markings have weathered through.

These were replaced by A-20G Bostons.
these were VVS modified, with added torpedo/bomb racks.    This allowed the bomb bay to be sealed up and fitted with extra fuel tanks .

Initially they added a navigator station in the rear fuselage, but later they modifed the gun nose, removing the 4 nose guns and adding glazing, making a naigator/aimer position.
as can be seen below, note torpedo to left
(http://www.bellabs.ru/51/Photos/Merkulov-1.jpg)

There is a good thread here [of course] which containts lots of info and some scale drawings too
http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1007.0
it was posted on the short lived alternate site, hence the 'recovered topic'

there a re loads of photos here, follow the links, they lead to more pics...
http://www.bellabs.ru/51/Photos/_Scenes.html

note in this article
http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/geust/aircraft_deliveries.htm
Quote
Lend-lease aircraft amounted to 18% of all aircraft in the Soviet air forces, 20% of all bombers, and 16-23% of all fighters (numbers vary depending on calculation methods), and 29% of all naval aircraft. In some AF commands and fronts the proportion of Lend-Lease aircraft was even higher: of the 9.888 fighters delivered to the air defense (PVO) fighter units in 1941-45 6.953 (or over 70%!) were British or American. In the AF of the Karelian front lend-lease aircraft amounted to about two-thirds of all combat aircraft in 1942-43, practically all torpedo bombers of the naval air forces were A-20G Bostons in 1944-45 etc.

Some American aircraft types were simply irreplaceable and very highly appreciated on all levels during the war, e.g. P-39 Airacobra fighters, A-20 Boston and B-25 Mitchell bombers and C-47 transport aircraft.

HTH
T


Title: Re: Soviet anti-shipping / torpedo aircraft?
Post by: B_Realistic on December 03, 2012, 09:32:42 AM
I never knew htey had Hampdens.
That's odd. :o


Title: Re: Soviet anti-shipping / torpedo aircraft?
Post by: learstang on December 03, 2012, 05:49:12 PM
I knew the Soviets had Hampdens, Troy, but I didn't realise they used them as torpedo-bombers.  Thank you for the photographs!

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Soviet anti-shipping / torpedo aircraft?
Post by: learstang on December 03, 2012, 05:50:22 PM
I never knew htey had Hampdens.
That's odd. :o

If you think that's odd, Michel, the Soviets also had A.W. Albermarles.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Soviet anti-shipping / torpedo aircraft?
Post by: Troy Smith on December 03, 2012, 06:25:13 PM
I never knew htey had Hampdens.
That's odd. :o

If you think that's odd, Michel, the Soviets also had A.W. Albermarles.

Regards,

Jason
Apparently they were just used for their engines!


Title: Re: Soviet anti-shipping / torpedo aircraft?
Post by: learstang on December 03, 2012, 06:35:10 PM
I never knew htey had Hampdens.
That's odd. :o

If you think that's odd, Michel, the Soviets also had A.W. Albermarles.

Regards,

Jason
Apparently they were just used for their engines!

I had wondered what they used the b****y things for!  Of course, the RAF fobbed off the Airacobras on the Soviets because the RAF hated them, and were no doubt amazed when the Soviets actually loved them and used them to good effect!  The Soviets also liked the Curtiss O-52 Owl, which America sent them because the USAAF had no use for them.  Well, one man's rubbish is another man's treasure.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Soviet anti-shipping / torpedo aircraft?
Post by: Troy Smith on December 03, 2012, 06:39:40 PM
I knew the Soviets had Hampdens, Troy, but I didn't realise they used them as torpedo-bombers.  Thank you for the photographs!

Regards,

Jason
It's on wiki so it must be true  ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handley_Page_Hampden
Quote
After being withdrawn from Bomber Command in 1942, it operated with RAF Coastal Command through 1943 as a long-range torpedo bomber, (the Hampden TB Mk I with a Mk XII torpedo in an open bomb bay and a single 500 lb (230 kg) bomb under each wing) and as a maritime reconnaissance aircraft. No. 144 Squadron RAF and No. 455 Squadron RAAF were involved in the escort of Arctic Convoy PQ-18 operating from Soviet airbases and left their 23 aircraft in the USSR afterward. These were then used by the 3rd Squadron of the 24 MTAP (Anti-shipping Wing) of the Soviet Navy until at least 1943.[6] The Hampden was also used by the RCAF and the RNZAF.

There's a lovely colour pic of a Hampden in flight on the wiki page too.

I have a Fonderie Miniature Hampden kit that a friend gave me [which actually started me off buying kits again!] which if it gets done will end up a VVS one. [FM kits are 'legendary' for their quality..]

For the modeller I think there are some differences in underfuselage layout, and posssibly the gunner's position, IIRC a post on Britmodeller.
wow, my brain has not totally addled!
http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=70233

note Graham Boak's post, #16
Quote
The Hampden bombbay modifications were restricted to the heavy duty carrier and appropriate wiring/fitting.  It was not deepened and the doors were not altered.   The torpedo was thus carried mainly below the bottom line of the fuselage (doors closed).  The step was entirely due to the change in the gunner's position.  This has been misrepresented in many drawings and descriptions:(I have spent many hours poring over photos trying (and failing!) to find evidence of this.   It is however correct in Green's original Bombers of WW2 and fully described in Putnam's Handley Page Aircraft.  The revision can be seen in photographs by the smaller windows and change in curve.  I have held the appropriate part in my hand at Cosford, and possess drawings of the Test Installation.

and a couple of neat pics from the thread, but posted here as we need all the VVS info in one place...here!
(http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l23/chris7421/Hampden001.jpg)

here's one with the stabilising tail, mentioned again by Graham in post #13
Quote
My understanding, reinforced by the photo above, is that when carrying a torpedo the outer doors closed normally and the inner doors rested against the torpedo sides.  Once the torpedo dropped they closed normally.  The step up at the rear on torpedo bombers was caused by the ventral gunner's position being reduced in depth to allow the Monoplane Air Tail to be fitted: otherwise there wouldn't have been room for this.  The MAT allowed the torpedo to be dropped sucessfully at higher speeds than the 80kts or so of a standard design.
Compare to pic of bort #30  posted above.

(http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l23/chris7421/Hampden0012.jpg)

cheers
T


Title: Re: Soviet anti-shipping / torpedo aircraft?
Post by: learstang on December 03, 2012, 07:06:11 PM
Good information, Troy - thank you!  I suppose I just may have to get me a Hampden now.  I love Soviet aeroplanes, of course, but I also like L-L aircraft in Soviet markings - I have a B-25, two P-39's, three P-40's, and a P-47, all nearly completed, to attest to that.  I would suspect the Valom Hampden kit is quite a bit better than the ancient Airfix effort.  I realise that the Valom kit may require some filling and sanding, etc., but being a VVS modeller I'm pretty used to that.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Soviet anti-shipping / torpedo aircraft?
Post by: KL on December 03, 2012, 08:00:51 PM
There was a text about Soviet Hempdens in the recent "Flypast"!!!  5 pages by V. Kotelnikov and Y. Ribin.

(http://www.flypast.com/central/images/covers/large/3133.jpg)

also see here:
http://www.euromodelnews.net/nwsIndex.php?action=NwsView&nId=9583&PHPSESSID=7a035614aaf06a56aa97ac0b67ae4e00

Quote
In Combat
 Vladimir Kotelnikov and Yuriy Rybin relate the gallant exploits of Hampdens in Soviet service.

Looks that it hasn't been noticed by other forum members...  ::)

Regards,
KL


Title: Re: Soviet anti-shipping / torpedo aircraft?
Post by: KL on December 03, 2012, 10:39:01 PM
Development of Soviet anti-shipping/torpedo aviation:

(http://www.e-reading.org.ua/illustrations/146/146673-pic_86.jpg)
(http://www.e-reading.org.ua/illustrations/146/146673-pic_87.jpg)
(http://www.e-reading.org.ua/illustrations/146/146673-pic_88.jpg)

from 1996 Aviatsiya i Kosmonavtika at http://www.e-reading.org.ua/chapter.php/146673/9/Aviaciya_i_kosmonavtika_-_Aviaciya_i_kosmonavtika_1996_04.html

Regards,
KL


Title: Re: Soviet anti-shipping / torpedo aircraft?
Post by: learstang on December 03, 2012, 10:45:55 PM
Very nice profiles, Konstantin, thank you for posting!

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Soviet anti-shipping / torpedo aircraft?
Post by: Aaronw on December 04, 2012, 01:27:15 AM
Wow, very neat stuff. When I hear torpedo bomber I think Pacific war. I guess this is just another casualty of all the focus going to the big armor battles of the East front.

Thanks, now not only have I added the Zvesda IL-4 to my list of things to get, I think I'll be on the lookout for another Hampton. Also need to find a book that covers the naval war in the east, clearly what I have fails in that regard.


Title: Re: Soviet anti-shipping / torpedo aircraft?
Post by: learstang on December 04, 2012, 02:01:09 AM
Wow, very neat stuff. When I hear torpedo bomber I think Pacific war. I guess this is just another casualty of all the focus going to the big armor battles of the East front.

Thanks, now not only have I added the Zvesda IL-4 to my list of things to get, I think I'll be on the lookout for another Hampton. Also need to find a book that covers the naval war in the east, clearly what I have fails in that regard.

Aaron, unfortunately the Zvezda kit needs some work to make it more accurate.  From what I've read, the best thing to do is to combine this kit with the Revell Il-4, combining the wings from the Revell kit with the fuselage from the Zvezda kit.  I actually have both kits, but I haven't been brave enough to try this just yet.  You might look here on this site to find more information about making an accurate Il-4 - www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/db3-il4/models/ilya/ilya.html   It's amazing that such an important aeroplane (the Soviet equivalent to the He-111) hasn't been adequately done in any scale, even 1/72nd scale, but such is the state of VVS modelling.  We're all still waiting for an accurate 1/72nd scale I-153.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Soviet anti-shipping / torpedo aircraft?
Post by: KL on December 04, 2012, 07:53:37 PM
Il-4 torpedo-bomber by photo-correspondent R. Diament:

(http://www.spravedlivo-online.ru/upload/iblock/d90/mavwsk%20jydabk%20g%20arazwapws-vhxjjzatantwj.%201942.jpg)
(http://www.spravedlivo-online.ru/upload/iblock/422/wrwbceibow%20pmhhepzz%20xizkecy%20gaa%20hdueurfx%20w%20ozkkowrw.%201943.jpg)
(http://www.spravedlivo-online.ru/upload/iblock/03e/cjqnrbwwiaju%20qa-3d%20mvq%20nvkxzbzi%20dhyesaniofkk.%201943.jpg)
(http://www.spravedlivo-online.ru/upload/iblock/1dd/wvbrsyjmq%20owo%20xikgx,%20ledkt%20vbum.%201943.jpg)
(http://www.spravedlivo-online.ru/upload/iblock/08b/bfxsyj%20uwdyb%20fgwsyyrgeookw.%201943.jpg)
(http://www.spravedlivo-online.ru/upload/iblock/63b/is-4%20worxzqc%20ssnxugb%20tr%20nvzxuujbxnre%20yawuoosne%20vgwjd%20q%20pekgrfgozb%20ybyl.%201944.jpg)
(http://www.spravedlivo-online.ru/upload/iblock/4fb/cwwbtrqfvntc%20bhnitj%20mmpsdgn%20cxdtyq.%201944.jpg)
(http://www.spravedlivo-online.ru/upload/iblock/c49/mpsnfgf%20ctnoumv%20j.o.%20iwjbajg,%20hcggequ%20vcjnqptwrnjf%20hwbrljo%20ulodswgy%20dkoxgrh,%20tiwnena%20otilv%20zweoqqduiz%20ahclw.%201943.jpg)


Title: Re: Soviet anti-shipping / torpedo aircraft?
Post by: learstang on December 04, 2012, 10:38:09 PM
Again, nice photographs, Konstantin!  I especially like the third photograph of the Il-4 in flight; it shows off the external fuel tank to good advantage.  I never really thought about it, but that high landing gear gave the Il-4 good ground clearance for loading and taking off with the torpedo.  The pilot's cockpit is surprisingly small - it doesn't look bigger than a Shturmovik's.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Soviet anti-shipping / torpedo aircraft?
Post by: Aaronw on December 04, 2012, 10:53:21 PM
Great photos, very inspiring.

Not really seeing what his issue was with the Zvesda wings, sounds like panel lines and undersized cowlings. As a big fan of Matchbox and Airfix I could n't care less about panel lines. The cowling depending on how bad they are could be an issue though, but that is why they make resin... shouldn't be too hard to borrow a Revell kit or find a similar cowling to copy.


Title: Re: Soviet anti-shipping / torpedo aircraft?
Post by: KL on December 05, 2012, 01:39:47 AM
I especially like the third photograph of the Il-4 in flight; it shows off the external fuel tank to good advantage.

It's a parachute case - this torpedo was dropped from altitude, not from low level flight:
(http://rusarchives.ru/victory65/pages/16_31.jpg)
(http://rusarchives.ru/victory65/pages/16_32.jpg)

check here:  http://rusarchives.ru/victory65/pages/16_31.htm


Title: Re: Soviet anti-shipping / torpedo aircraft?
Post by: learstang on December 05, 2012, 01:51:22 AM
I especially like the third photograph of the Il-4 in flight; it shows off the external fuel tank to good advantage.

It's a parachute case - this torpedo was dropped from altitude, not from low level flight:

Now that I didn't know; thank you for the information, Konstantin!  If I ever get around to doing my Il-4, I'll have to run a line from the end of the torpedo to the parachute container.  I know I've read that it was a fuel tank - imagine that, someone writing incorrect information about a GPW VVS aeroplane!

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Soviet anti-shipping / torpedo aircraft?
Post by: FPSOlkor on December 05, 2012, 06:45:11 PM
Hampdens were not at Baltic, but at Arctic... They were disliked byt teir crews. Look here
http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/alekseev/index.htm

O-52s were available for VVS in great numbers - 19 planes in total...


Title: Re: Soviet anti-shipping / torpedo aircraft?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on December 05, 2012, 06:53:37 PM
Hi, a good link with photos of A-20 with torpedoes.
http://www.bellabs.ru/51/BostonUSSR/BostonUSSR-06.html (http://www.bellabs.ru/51/BostonUSSR/BostonUSSR-06.html)
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Soviet anti-shipping / torpedo aircraft?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on December 05, 2012, 06:57:35 PM
A page of profiles from the same site

http://www.bellabs.ru/51/BostonUSSR/BostonUSSR-17.html (http://www.bellabs.ru/51/BostonUSSR/BostonUSSR-17.html)
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Soviet anti-shipping / torpedo aircraft?
Post by: 66misos on December 05, 2012, 09:48:46 PM
Hi,

when looking at the photos posted by KL today I wonder how that torpedo with paraschute falling down almost vertically could find the way from deep waters to the target.

Regards,
     66misos





Title: Re: Soviet anti-shipping / torpedo aircraft?
Post by: learstang on December 05, 2012, 10:19:02 PM
Great photos, very inspiring.

Not really seeing what his issue was with the Zvesda wings, sounds like panel lines and undersized cowlings. As a big fan of Matchbox and Airfix I could n't care less about panel lines. The cowling depending on how bad they are could be an issue though, but that is why they make resin... shouldn't be too hard to borrow a Revell kit or find a similar cowling to copy.

Aaron, I think the main issue is with the cowlings; the Zvezda ones are much too cylindrical.  I've played around with the idea of just replacing those with the Revell cowlings, and adding some of the interior from the Revell kit, which has more interior detailing.  That is if I ever get around to it.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Soviet anti-shipping / torpedo aircraft?
Post by: KL on December 05, 2012, 10:22:31 PM
when looking at the photos posted by KL today I wonder how that torpedo with paraschute falling down almost vertically could find the way from deep waters to the target.

Torpedo 45-36 АV-А was designed to make circles (to run/swim? in circles) or to make spirals.  This could be an effective tactic against ships in convoys.

Germans used similar tactics, check here http://www.uboat.net:8080/technical/torpedoes.htm

Quote
There were also two important pattern-running devices which could be applied to various torpedo types. These were FAT and LUT.

The FAT (Federapparat Torpedo) ran a wandering course with regular 180-degree turns, was useful against convoys, and was fitted to both G7a and G7e T3s. From the end of 1942 onwards it was manufactured at the rate of roughly 100 per month.

LUT was a more sophisticated version of the FAT, with more variable patterns, but was only used operationally towards the end of the war.


Title: Re: Soviet anti-shipping / torpedo aircraft?
Post by: Aaronw on December 08, 2012, 07:19:53 AM
Great photos, very inspiring.

Not really seeing what his issue was with the Zvesda wings, sounds like panel lines and undersized cowlings. As a big fan of Matchbox and Airfix I could n't care less about panel lines. The cowling depending on how bad they are could be an issue though, but that is why they make resin... shouldn't be too hard to borrow a Revell kit or find a similar cowling to copy.

Aaron, I think the main issue is with the cowlings; the Zvezda ones are much too cylindrical.  I've played around with the idea of just replacing those with the Revell cowlings, and adding some of the interior from the Revell kit, which has more interior detailing.  That is if I ever get around to it.

Regards,

Jason

Thanks, it wasn't really clear what the issue was.


Title: Re: Soviet anti-shipping / torpedo aircraft?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on December 08, 2012, 11:15:55 AM
Hi Aaronw and Jason, I don't have the model of Zvezda, but from what I have seen on reviews, the wings of Zvezda should be scomposed in six pieces each, so a bit difficult to build, and the position of the part with nacelles should be a bit out of proportion. Nothing impossible to correct, I think. I wonder why it was done so. Maybe they thought to obtain a DB-3 from the same moulds?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Soviet anti-shipping / torpedo aircraft?
Post by: learstang on December 08, 2012, 05:55:55 PM
Hi Aaronw and Jason, I don't have the model of Zvezda, but from what I have seen on reviews, the wings of Zvezda should be scomposed in six pieces each, so a bit difficult to build, and the position of the part with nacelles should be a bit out of proportion. Nothing impossible to correct, I think. I wonder why it was done so. Maybe they thought to obtain a DB-3 from the same moulds?
Regards
Massimo

When kits are over-engineered, as the Zvezda one is, it seems like it is often due to the manufacturer wanting to do different variants from the same basic moulds (think of models with separate noses and/or tails, for example).  That's one advantage the Revell (ex VEB/Plasticart) kit has over the Zvezda kit - the wings look much easier to build.  But then you have to mate it with the centre-wing assembly (I plan on using that part of the Zvezda kit, whichever way I go on the wings - in any case, the Zvezda cowlings have to go).

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Soviet anti-shipping / torpedo aircraft?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on December 08, 2012, 10:37:00 PM
Eventually one could use the engine cowlings of a Bloch 174 to make the version of 1940. In this case, there is also to rebuild the glazed part behind the cockpit. The kit of Revell is rare, it's a pity to scratch it to recover  the cowlings only, that have anyway to be opened and modified.  Probably I'll try to build my Revell kit correcting the fuselage cross section and the tail as possible. I wonder if I'll find a better glazing for the turret.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Soviet anti-shipping / torpedo aircraft?
Post by: AC26 on December 09, 2012, 10:48:54 AM
Eventually one could use the engine cowlings of a Bloch 174 to make the version of 1940. In this case, there is also to rebuild the glazed part behind the cockpit. The kit of Revell is rare, it's a pity to scratch it to recover  the cowlings only, that have anyway to be opened and modified.  Probably I'll try to build my Revell kit correcting the fuselage cross section and the tail as possible. I wonder if I'll find a better glazing for the turret.
Regards
Massimo
Hi!

Why not try to dig out Goffy Models detailing set for Zvezda? It has both old and new cowls and plenty of other useful stuff.

See: http://www.rollmodels.net/standard/show_sale_new.php?hileveldesc=1%2F72+Resin+Aircraft+Details&manufacturer=Goffy+Model

Same company did also a cockpit set for Il-4.

Cheers,

AaCee


Title: Re: Soviet anti-shipping / torpedo aircraft?
Post by: learstang on December 09, 2012, 06:13:24 PM
Thank you, AaCee!  I didn't know about those.  I think Goffy's been out of business for some time, but perhaps Roll Models do still have the engines in stock.  Worth pursuing.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Soviet anti-shipping / torpedo aircraft?
Post by: learstang on December 09, 2012, 06:17:49 PM
There; I just ordered the set.  Let's see if they actually have it (it looks quite nice)!

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Soviet anti-shipping / torpedo aircraft?
Post by: Aaronw on December 12, 2012, 03:48:26 AM
There; I just ordered the set.  Let's see if they actually have it (it looks quite nice)!

Regards,

Jason

If you have any luck, please let me know. I've had bad luck with them actually having anything in stock, but it has been a long time since I've ordered from them. Maybe they have purged their catalog of the ancient stuff that is impossible to get anymore.