Sovietwarplanes

Considering the relatively few number of kits available of VVS aircraft, I've noticed what seems to me to be an unusual number* equipped with torpedoes (at least in 1/72 which is where I live). I was not aware that there was even much of an anti-shipping role on the East front, can anyone shed some light on this?

*probably only 2 or 3, but considering there are only a dozen or two types available that seems a high proportion if there wasn't an active anti-shipping war

I can speak for the Shturmovik.  There was considerable anti-shipping activity in the Black Sea.  There wasn't as much in the Baltic Sea, until later in the war, and there was some in the Arctic Ocean.  Shturmoviks were attached to the various Fleets, such as the Red Banner Fleet (Baltic Fleet), the Black Sea Fleet, and the Northern Fleet, where their main responsibility was anti-shipping activities, in addition to their normal duties providing ground support to land forces.  Contrary to some reports (and at least one kit), however, there doesn't appear to have been any Il-2's that were equipped with torpedoes.  They used their rockets, bombs, and guns to attack Axis shipping.  The Il-4 and the A-20 Boston were both equipped with torpedoes, and were used in the anti-shipping role.

Regards,

Jason  

I had no idea, Thanks. 

The VVS used ex-RAF Hampdens in the Baltic,
nice big pic here
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7161/6776380363_40bb00f95f_o.jpg)

in the pic of bort #30 below, you can see the stabilising tail of the torpedo, just under the lower gunner's position. I think this is a British torpedo as well, not totally sure.
There was a specific variant of the Hampden configured to carry torpedos BTW.
(http://i44.tinypic.com/2el4mr7.jpg)

At least two Hampdens have been salvged from Russia BTW.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v634/Mark12/Album%204/HampdenP1344PL-KImagePeterArnold.jpg)
this one is being restored at the RAF museum, note original RAF markings have weathered through.

These were replaced by A-20G Bostons.
these were VVS modified, with added torpedo/bomb racks.    This allowed the bomb bay to be sealed up and fitted with extra fuel tanks .

Initially they added a navigator station in the rear fuselage, but later they modifed the gun nose, removing the 4 nose guns and adding glazing, making a naigator/aimer position.
as can be seen below, note torpedo to left
(http://www.bellabs.ru/51/Photos/Merkulov-1.jpg)

There is a good thread here [of course] which containts lots of info and some scale drawings too
http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1007.0
it was posted on the short lived alternate site, hence the 'recovered topic'

there a re loads of photos here, follow the links, they lead to more pics...
http://www.bellabs.ru/51/Photos/_Scenes.html

note in this article
http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/geust/aircraft_deliveries.htm

HTH
T

I never knew htey had Hampdens.
That's odd. :o

I knew the Soviets had Hampdens, Troy, but I didn't realise they used them as torpedo-bombers.  Thank you for the photographs!

Regards,

Jason

If you think that's odd, Michel, the Soviets also had A.W. Albermarles.

Regards,

Jason

Apparently they were just used for their engines!

I had wondered what they used the b****y things for!  Of course, the RAF fobbed off the Airacobras on the Soviets because the RAF hated them, and were no doubt amazed when the Soviets actually loved them and used them to good effect!  The Soviets also liked the Curtiss O-52 Owl, which America sent them because the USAAF had no use for them.  Well, one man's rubbish is another man's treasure.

Regards,

Jason

It's on wiki so it must be true  ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handley_Page_Hampden

There's a lovely colour pic of a Hampden in flight on the wiki page too.

I have a Fonderie Miniature Hampden kit that a friend gave me [which actually started me off buying kits again!] which if it gets done will end up a VVS one. [FM kits are 'legendary' for their quality..]

For the modeller I think there are some differences in underfuselage layout, and posssibly the gunner's position, IIRC a post on Britmodeller.
wow, my brain has not totally addled!
http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=70233

note Graham Boak's post, #16

and a couple of neat pics from the thread, but posted here as we need all the VVS info in one place...here!
(http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l23/chris7421/Hampden001.jpg)

here's one with the stabilising tail, mentioned again by Graham in post #13
Compare to pic of bort #30  posted above.

(http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l23/chris7421/Hampden0012.jpg)

cheers
T

Good information, Troy - thank you!  I suppose I just may have to get me a Hampden now.  I love Soviet aeroplanes, of course, but I also like L-L aircraft in Soviet markings - I have a B-25, two P-39's, three P-40's, and a P-47, all nearly completed, to attest to that.  I would suspect the Valom Hampden kit is quite a bit better than the ancient Airfix effort.  I realise that the Valom kit may require some filling and sanding, etc., but being a VVS modeller I'm pretty used to that.

Regards,

Jason

There was a text about Soviet Hempdens in the recent "Flypast"!!!  5 pages by V. Kotelnikov and Y. Ribin.

(http://www.flypast.com/central/images/covers/large/3133.jpg)

also see here:
http://www.euromodelnews.net/nwsIndex.php?action=NwsView&nId=9583&PHPSESSID=7a035614aaf06a56aa97ac0b67ae4e00


Looks that it hasn't been noticed by other forum members...  ::)

Regards,
KL

Development of Soviet anti-shipping/torpedo aviation:

(http://www.e-reading.org.ua/illustrations/146/146673-pic_86.jpg)
(http://www.e-reading.org.ua/illustrations/146/146673-pic_87.jpg)
(http://www.e-reading.org.ua/illustrations/146/146673-pic_88.jpg)

from 1996 Aviatsiya i Kosmonavtika at http://www.e-reading.org.ua/chapter.php/146673/9/Aviaciya_i_kosmonavtika_-_Aviaciya_i_kosmonavtika_1996_04.html

Regards,
KL

Very nice profiles, Konstantin, thank you for posting!

Regards,

Jason

Wow, very neat stuff. When I hear torpedo bomber I think Pacific war. I guess this is just another casualty of all the focus going to the big armor battles of the East front.

Thanks, now not only have I added the Zvesda IL-4 to my list of things to get, I think I'll be on the lookout for another Hampton. Also need to find a book that covers the naval war in the east, clearly what I have fails in that regard.

Aaron, unfortunately the Zvezda kit needs some work to make it more accurate.  From what I've read, the best thing to do is to combine this kit with the Revell Il-4, combining the wings from the Revell kit with the fuselage from the Zvezda kit.  I actually have both kits, but I haven't been brave enough to try this just yet.  You might look here on this site to find more information about making an accurate Il-4 - www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/db3-il4/models/ilya/ilya.html   It's amazing that such an important aeroplane (the Soviet equivalent to the He-111) hasn't been adequately done in any scale, even 1/72nd scale, but such is the state of VVS modelling.  We're all still waiting for an accurate 1/72nd scale I-153.

Regards,

Jason

Il-4 torpedo-bomber by photo-correspondent R. Diament:

(http://www.spravedlivo-online.ru/upload/iblock/d90/mavwsk%20jydabk%20g%20arazwapws-vhxjjzatantwj.%201942.jpg)
(http://www.spravedlivo-online.ru/upload/iblock/422/wrwbceibow%20pmhhepzz%20xizkecy%20gaa%20hdueurfx%20w%20ozkkowrw.%201943.jpg)
(http://www.spravedlivo-online.ru/upload/iblock/03e/cjqnrbwwiaju%20qa-3d%20mvq%20nvkxzbzi%20dhyesaniofkk.%201943.jpg)
(http://www.spravedlivo-online.ru/upload/iblock/1dd/wvbrsyjmq%20owo%20xikgx,%20ledkt%20vbum.%201943.jpg)
(http://www.spravedlivo-online.ru/upload/iblock/08b/bfxsyj%20uwdyb%20fgwsyyrgeookw.%201943.jpg)
(http://www.spravedlivo-online.ru/upload/iblock/63b/is-4%20worxzqc%20ssnxugb%20tr%20nvzxuujbxnre%20yawuoosne%20vgwjd%20q%20pekgrfgozb%20ybyl.%201944.jpg)
(http://www.spravedlivo-online.ru/upload/iblock/4fb/cwwbtrqfvntc%20bhnitj%20mmpsdgn%20cxdtyq.%201944.jpg)
(http://www.spravedlivo-online.ru/upload/iblock/c49/mpsnfgf%20ctnoumv%20j.o.%20iwjbajg,%20hcggequ%20vcjnqptwrnjf%20hwbrljo%20ulodswgy%20dkoxgrh,%20tiwnena%20otilv%20zweoqqduiz%20ahclw.%201943.jpg)

Again, nice photographs, Konstantin!  I especially like the third photograph of the Il-4 in flight; it shows off the external fuel tank to good advantage.  I never really thought about it, but that high landing gear gave the Il-4 good ground clearance for loading and taking off with the torpedo.  The pilot's cockpit is surprisingly small - it doesn't look bigger than a Shturmovik's.

Regards,

Jason

Great photos, very inspiring.

Not really seeing what his issue was with the Zvesda wings, sounds like panel lines and undersized cowlings. As a big fan of Matchbox and Airfix I could n't care less about panel lines. The cowling depending on how bad they are could be an issue though, but that is why they make resin... shouldn't be too hard to borrow a Revell kit or find a similar cowling to copy.

It's a parachute case - this torpedo was dropped from altitude, not from low level flight:
(http://rusarchives.ru/victory65/pages/16_31.jpg)
(http://rusarchives.ru/victory65/pages/16_32.jpg)

check here:  http://rusarchives.ru/victory65/pages/16_31.htm

Now that I didn't know; thank you for the information, Konstantin!  If I ever get around to doing my Il-4, I'll have to run a line from the end of the torpedo to the parachute container.  I know I've read that it was a fuel tank - imagine that, someone writing incorrect information about a GPW VVS aeroplane!

Regards,

Jason

Hampdens were not at Baltic, but at Arctic... They were disliked byt teir crews. Look here
http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/alekseev/index.htm

O-52s were available for VVS in great numbers - 19 planes in total...

Hi, a good link with photos of A-20 with torpedoes.
http://www.bellabs.ru/51/BostonUSSR/BostonUSSR-06.html (http://www.bellabs.ru/51/BostonUSSR/BostonUSSR-06.html)
Regards
Massimo

A page of profiles from the same site

http://www.bellabs.ru/51/BostonUSSR/BostonUSSR-17.html (http://www.bellabs.ru/51/BostonUSSR/BostonUSSR-17.html)
Regards
Massimo

Hi,

when looking at the photos posted by KL today I wonder how that torpedo with paraschute falling down almost vertically could find the way from deep waters to the target.

Regards,
     66misos

Aaron, I think the main issue is with the cowlings; the Zvezda ones are much too cylindrical.  I've played around with the idea of just replacing those with the Revell cowlings, and adding some of the interior from the Revell kit, which has more interior detailing.  That is if I ever get around to it.

Regards,

Jason

Torpedo 45-36 АV-А was designed to make circles (to run/swim? in circles) or to make spirals.  This could be an effective tactic against ships in convoys.

Germans used similar tactics, check here http://www.uboat.net:8080/technical/torpedoes.htm

Thanks, it wasn't really clear what the issue was.

Hi Aaronw and Jason, I don't have the model of Zvezda, but from what I have seen on reviews, the wings of Zvezda should be scomposed in six pieces each, so a bit difficult to build, and the position of the part with nacelles should be a bit out of proportion. Nothing impossible to correct, I think. I wonder why it was done so. Maybe they thought to obtain a DB-3 from the same moulds?
Regards
Massimo

When kits are over-engineered, as the Zvezda one is, it seems like it is often due to the manufacturer wanting to do different variants from the same basic moulds (think of models with separate noses and/or tails, for example).  That's one advantage the Revell (ex VEB/Plasticart) kit has over the Zvezda kit - the wings look much easier to build.  But then you have to mate it with the centre-wing assembly (I plan on using that part of the Zvezda kit, whichever way I go on the wings - in any case, the Zvezda cowlings have to go).

Regards,

Jason

Eventually one could use the engine cowlings of a Bloch 174 to make the version of 1940. In this case, there is also to rebuild the glazed part behind the cockpit. The kit of Revell is rare, it's a pity to scratch it to recover  the cowlings only, that have anyway to be opened and modified.  Probably I'll try to build my Revell kit correcting the fuselage cross section and the tail as possible. I wonder if I'll find a better glazing for the turret.
Regards
Massimo

Hi!

Why not try to dig out Goffy Models detailing set for Zvezda? It has both old and new cowls and plenty of other useful stuff.

See: http://www.rollmodels.net/standard/show_sale_new.php?hileveldesc=1%2F72+Resin+Aircraft+Details&manufacturer=Goffy+Model

Same company did also a cockpit set for Il-4.

Cheers,

AaCee

Thank you, AaCee!  I didn't know about those.  I think Goffy's been out of business for some time, but perhaps Roll Models do still have the engines in stock.  Worth pursuing.

Regards,

Jason

There; I just ordered the set.  Let's see if they actually have it (it looks quite nice)!

Regards,

Jason

If you have any luck, please let me know. I've had bad luck with them actually having anything in stock, but it has been a long time since I've ordered from them. Maybe they have purged their catalog of the ancient stuff that is impossible to get anymore.