Sovietwarplanes

Hello everyone, and have a happy 2013!
I am planning to build a Special Hobby 1/72 Yak-23 and I need some expert?s help for the cockpit colors. The instruction sheet suggests light gray Gunze H57 for the entire cockpit, except the seat which is green H312.
This site (http://www.airgroup2000.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=224364) shows many cockpit pictures where the main parts seem natural aluminium or perhaps light gray, including the seat. The front instrument panel, left vertical console, control column, throttle and canopy frames are green. It seems an unrestored aircraft, if this is the case it could be reliable.
According to Mushroom N? 6124, the whole cockpit seems light gray (could it be AE9?).
Thank you in advance for your help.

Hi Otto,
the inside looks grey-green, traces of color are visible on the nm parts as if it was removed.
Grey-green inside is displayed from some Russian Yak-9s too.
Akanihin has copied this color and sells it as AE-9, but I think that is not the AE-9 of SB, but another misidentified color.
Regards
Massimo

Thank you Massimo!
Looking at the Yak-23 pictures as above and these (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=855.0) of the Yak-9, it seems to me that Humbrol 31, perhaps lightened for scale effect, could be a good match. Any suggestion?

Cockpit of the unrestored plane is dark green A-15f.  This was standard cockpit colour in late 1940es.
Check here:  http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=895.45
Table by Vahlamov & Orlov:
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/VVS%20colours/Interiorpaints-M-Hobby4-1999.jpg)

Translation:
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/VVS%20colours/Interiorcolours1999-4M-HobbyPt1.jpg)


Gray-green cockpit is known from the Yak-9 which was preserved at OKB Yakovlev Museum, now in Zadorozhni museum.  This is the only authentic wartime Yak-9, but its colours are not authentic. The plane was overhauled in 1970es; its exterior was painted in spurious colours (light gray + gray-green  :-X) and its cockpit was painted in equaly wrong colour.
HTH,
KL

Hi,
however it looks the same color of the Yak-23. Besides there are some layers of visible color, and are all variations of grey-green.
Regards
Massimo

mmmm... :-\
So the gray green of the Yak-23 pictures could be aged dark green. The canopy frames appear darker than the instrument panel, possibly because they are more protected from light and handling. Things are more complicated than I expected!
Acording to the color table, the wheel bays were painted A-14f gray. This seems to be confirmed by the pictures in the Mushroom book, what do you think?

Use of Dark green as a cockpit colour is fact
Li-2 Restored in Hungary

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/22/Li-2_HA-LIX_Cockpit_01.jpg/800px-Li-2_HA-LIX_Cockpit_01.jpg)

Monino Li-2, green and gray
(http://russianplanes.net/images/to10000/009780.jpg)

Gray-green as designated colour for WWII Soviet planes is a myth.  Only at hyperscale forum you can find that Russians painted cockpits in RLM-02.  This forum should be better...

Thank you, Massimo and KL!
The Li-2 pictures show gray, green and gray-green paint applied on different items. This seems to match roughly with the Yak-23 pictures: green on instrument panel, control stick and canopy frames, gray on floor, walls and seat. The green paint is not so dark, so it could fade into a gray-green shade after several decades.

Hi, :) my first post here.

According to http://www.airwar.ru/enc/other/yak11.html (http://www.airwar.ru/enc/other/yak11.html) (and a 'doctored' translation based on Google-translate - granted, not the best tool ;D)

"...Also in 1947 the specifications for oil matte enamel A-23m was approved. Its nitrocellulose counterpart was called DC-23 (probably, DC - for the cabin). Although in the specification the color for this enamel color was "gray-green", some of the data related to the later classification system for the shades of paints, suggest that it would be better to call it "a gray-green." A-23m was used for painting exterior surfaces, and, from 1946, at the factory No. 292, its nitro-based enamel and DC-23were used for the interior of the Yak-11. They were also used to paint the engine mounts, landing gear struts and covers, landing flaps, etc. ..."

I don't know how reliable the information is, but can't help wondering wondering if the painting practice for one type of Yakovlev aircraft was extended to all the other types...

Best regards,

Pete57

Hi Pete57,  :)
thanks for the interesting info!
It's from 2007-8 Modelist-Konstruktor, author is M. Orlov.  Magazine is available for download at http://publ.lib.ru/ARCHIVES/M/''Modelist-konstruktor''/_''Modelist-konstruktor''_2007_.html

But so, is the inside color of Yak-11 identical to the outside, and similar to the grey-green of the Yak-9 in the museum? It's strange for me.
Regards
Massimo

Welcome to the forum, Pete57, and thank you for the information!

Best Regards,

Jason

Orlov's text says something like: "Although the normativ name of the colour was "gray-green", it would be better to call it "greenish-gray""

So, it was more green than gray...  kind of...  ???

I would not rely much on those Yaks restored in 1970es, even if it was for OKB Yakovlev Museum.  Nobody cared about authentic colours in those times...

Indeed it's not very clear (or perhaps, it is the Google translation that makes it unclear...)

At one point it seems that the interior was in nitrocellulose DK-23, with the exterior in the oil-based enamel A-23m, but a few lines down it states that all the exterior surfaces were painted gray-blue AGT-16, switching, in the second half of 1953 until the end of production, in 1954 to perchlorovinyl enamel HVE-16 of the same shade as the AGT-16. ???

Unless A-23m was a primer and, following its application, the aircraft received a coat of AGT-16/HVE-16... ::)

Perhaps someone in the forum who speaks Russian could clarify :)...

According to http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_9888.html (http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_9888.html) Mig-9 and Yak-23 colors, Yak-23's were painted silver while MiG-9's were painted the same grey as the Yak-11 as per post # 6 by 'Summoner' and the confirmation, in post #7 by 'rueveet' who appearently known someone who had worked on the MiG-9.

I'm afraid, though, this doesn't clarify the matter :-[

Best regards,

Pete57

Color cockpit could be gray and green in equal measure.
(http://storage8.static.itmages.ru/i/13/0105/s_1357336915_8546019_3c9e739dfe.jpeg) (http://itmages.ru/image/view/832697/3c9e739d) (http://storage5.static.itmages.ru/i/13/0105/s_1357336931_8251804_29e8491a3b.jpeg) (http://itmages.ru/image/view/832698/29e8491a)

not clear because Yak-23 is an obscure plane for Russian authors.  It wasn't a success story, it was made in relativelly small numbers.  It was in service with east european air forces in early 1950es; it was contemprary with early Mig-15s.

Monino Yak-17 was repainted many times.  Still, It looks that its interior could be more reliable:

(http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/5402/atm-01841.3f/0_2d513_51086d1_XL)


Perchlorvinil paints are not relevant for Yak-23.  those paints were used instead of nitro-cellulose paints for fabric.

HTH,
KL

More museum exhibits:

OKB Yakovlev/Zadorozhni Museum Yak-23 two-seater; most likely repainted in 1960es or 1970es - colour looks like Yak-52 cockpit colour.  Probably not authentic!!!

(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_eEKWgnrGMJo/SoZNDkjJNQI/AAAAAAAAAD8/cFp_TMqv-kk/s576/1317938.jpg)

Krakow Museum Yak-23 during recent restoration; instrument panel and console may have been repainted, dark green looks authentic!!!
(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_eEKWgnrGMJo/SvRumgNqlWI/AAAAAAAAAMQ/X0wNWI0AHOg/_P1090017.jpg)

HTH,
KL

Hi,

Please bear with me...I'm still a little confused :-[

Was the cockpit painted a mix of grey and green or green only?

Would the grey be A-14?
Would the green be the greener version of the ALG-1 z/c primer, the ALG-5 or another color still?
And what would the landing gear wells and doors be painted?

Best regards,

Pete57

cockpit walkaround at http://www.airgroup2000.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=224364 clearly show green instrument pannel, control stick and trotlle quadrant.  It looks that sides above consoles were originally green, and later repainted in light gray.  Side consoles may have been originally gray  ???.

(http://airgroup2000.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10006/instrument_panel2rs.jpg)

(http://airgroup2000.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10006/control_stick.jpg)

Green should be A-15f, the same that was used on wheels.

If there was any gray in cockpit, it was A-14f, like Yak-17 instr panel.

Landing gear wells and doors were gray A-14f.

HTH,
KL

It seems that there are two different shades of green in this cockpit, the one on the control stick looks more yellowish.
Regards
Massimo

Thanks KL, very, very useful information :)


Please bear with me again  :-[ but I couldn't find this color anywhere on the 'VVS research page' of sovietwarplanes.com - perhaps, it should be added...:)
Is it in the Akan range? What would the closest FS595 equivalent be?

Best regards,

Pete57

Hi,
this is a postwar color, I have not arrived to include it in the table unless I extend the time range to Soviet postwar planes. Does anyone know if there is already some serious site on this matter, aside the Akan catalogue?
Regards
Massimo

Postwar planes/colours are not my field of expertise.  :)

A-15f is not included in 1948 "Albom Nakrasok", IMHO, DM Green in this catalogue should be very similar or the same as A-15f. DM Green was a postwar aviation nitrocellulose paint for interiors:

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/DM_Green_zps28a2c35a.jpg)

Green wheels + gray wheel wells are common on Mig-15s.  Following is chinese Mig-15 in Seatlle MoF

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/KL-Oct-2011-2005.jpg)

HTH,
KL

Would the radome green (AKAN 73060) do, since it appears to be the same color as the wheel hubs?

Best regards,

Pete57

Thank you all for the huge amount of information!
I think I will stay with the pictures of airgroup 2000. I decided to install the pilot and keep the canopy closed, therefore not much will be visible inside  ;).

(http://akan.ru/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/_________________4d2eeb9e978d0.jpg)

no, I would go with dark green...  not faded, grayish green.  :)
KL

Thanks KL,

Now I've got all the details I needed to start the MPM kit. :)
...well...I still need to find a bigger house where I'll have enough space to set up a modeling lab :( - currently living in a small apartment with my wife (Russian  ;)) and a 3yr old child...

One last question: would these interior colors apply to all the early Yak jets?

Regards,

Pete57

Akan shows a ДМ зелёная in the 731xx-series (a future release?)
(link) http://akan.ru/index.php?page=shop.product_details&product_id=877&flypage=flypage.tpl&pop=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=2

Is this the correct color?

Regards,

Hi Pete,
it would be good if Akanihin writes something on the use of each color, amd maybe on its samples. However, this is between ww2 colors.
Regards
Massimo

Yes, that is the correct colour!

(http://akan.ru/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/_________________4dc14dbe887e2.jpg)

Compare it with photos:
(http://airgroup2000.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10006/instrument_panel2rs.jpg)


Akanihin source is the same as mine - 1948 Albom Nakrasok:

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/DM_Green_zps28a2c35a.jpg)

HTH,
KL

Massimo,

I agree with you and indeed this forum has provided long sought after (by me, at least) information :) that, to an extent, make up for Akanihin's lack of information.

KL,

Thanks for the information. :) :) :)

It appears that, so far as the Yak-23 is concerned, the DM Green was used, within  the cockpit, in those areas where the sun reflection could be an issue, i.e. instrument panel and the top of the side consoles which - I agree with you - appear to have been originally painted green. Was this, to your knowledge, OKB Yakovlev's and Lisunov's practice only or did it extend also to the other aircraft manufacturers?

Regards,

Pete57

According to Vahlamov and Orlov, dark green replaced steel gray as cockpit colour in late 1940es.  Dark green was used as cockpit colour on Tupolev's bombers too.
Only in early 1960es each OKB started to use their own colours:  Mig started with turquoise blue-green, Yakovlev with gray-green, Mil with light blue etc.
HTH,
KL

Thanks Konstantin,


Puzzling...???

The 1953 pictures of NKPAF Lt. No Kum Sok's MiG-15 Bis' cockpit, as well as those of the early 50's La-15s' cockpit come to mind: although they were b/w, the general color appeared definitely light, thus ruling out dark green...

Perhaps manufacturers were instructed to use up their stocks of grey (that would, to an extent, explain the grey / dark green cockpits) - or was grey still used at field-level repair?

Unless it was a situation like in wartime America where, even though the specifications called for the use of the specific Interior Green ANA 611 color, after 1943, aircraft manufacturer's kept on using their own green's (or their paint subcontractors') which I find unlikely, though, given how regulations were probably more strictly enforced in the late 40's / early 50's USSR than they were in wartime America...

Your thoughts?

Best regards,

Pete57

Sorry, my mistake!  Vahlamov and Orlov only have "late 1940" as the "beginning of use".  They didn't say that dark green replaced gray A-14...  :-[

1950es are not my field of expertize  :-X but I know for sure that gray was widely used as cockpit colour in trainers and sport planes during 1950es.  It looks that both dark green and gray were in use during 1950es; green was used more for larger multi-engine planes (transports, passenger planes and bombers) while gray was usually used for smaller single-engine planes.  But this should be confirmed at Russian forums...

Cheers,
KL  

Konstantin,

For someone whose field of expertise are not the 50es, you sure provided me with LOTS OF MIGHTY USEFUL INFORMATION!  :) :) :)

With it, I can now tackle most present and future Soviet kits of the late 40es / early 50es, without fear of a major screw-up...well, at least so far as interior colors are concerned  ;)

TDH  ;D

Pete57

As a proof that bombers had dark green cockpit check Il-28 walkaround at http://apolo.koprivnice.org/walkarounds/Il-28/Il-28.htm
most of the cockpit (including floor) was covered with dark green quilted material.  Dark green paint was used on few exposed metal surfaces.  Pilots seat was gray...

(http://apolo.koprivnice.org/walkarounds/Il-28/Il-28_55.JPG)
(http://apolo.koprivnice.org/walkarounds/Il-28/Il-28_50.JPG)

Yak-18A cockpit

(http://www.academiaga.ru/gif/content/141_1306149175.jpg)

Mig-17 cockpit

(http://forums.airforce.ru/attachments/matchast/14984d1232633968-photo47.jpg/)

HTH,
KL

I'm briefly resurrecting this thread for a couple of questions

Does anybody know if this Yak-52 cockpit color applies to the Yak-30/32 trainers also(Amodel kits)? And if yes, would it apply to the cockpit only or to all the interior surfaces?

Also, does anybody know the official denomination and / or any model-paint equivalent?

Thanks & regards,

Pete57

IMHO, gray-green is colour used for cockpits of Yak military planes in 1970es and later, like Yak-38 - NOT relevant for Yak-30.

Original Yak-30 cockpit:
(http://www.e-reading-lib.com/illustrations/1010/1010126-neizyak_1672_img_149.jpg)

monino Yak-30:
(http://d.a.d-cd.net/a59afeu-480.jpg)

Yak-30 restored to flying condition:
(http://images.mipt-telecom.net/images/4/big/2013/01/14/632e6d0bbf0802be28b47966756fd485.jpg)
from  http://rdce.livejournal.com/26592.html
 

KL,

Thanks for the info.

But then, would the Yak-30/32's cockpit grey (that other Russian walkarounds show to have been used also inside the nose and main l/g bays, inner portion of the doors, struts and wheel-hubs) be the A-14, ,i.e. could this paint have still been in use in the early 60's?

And if not, what would this paint be?

On a slightly different subject, I've bumped into a Russian web-site that deals with the colors of the VVS jets in the 50's http://www.wunderwaffe.narod.ru/Magazine/AK/2006_06/06.htm (http://www.wunderwaffe.narod.ru/Magazine/AK/2006_06/06.htm) that may be of interest to you (the Google translation, with its known limits, has provided useful ones - at least to me ;) )

Regards,

Pete57

Cockpits of primary trainers and sport planes were gray in 1970es and 1980es.  Gray interior colour can be still seen today in many Yak-52s.  Just Google images for як-52 кабина   :)

In 1960es paint designations were standardised - new system designations consisted of abbreviations for paint type and numbers that described some properties.  Oil paints code was MA, Alkyd paint's code was GF etc...  A-14 and A14f probably remained in production, but under new designations.

HTH,
KL

Thanks KL,

Good info and sorry 'bout the late reply - been really busy lately :'(

Regards,

Pete57

I'd like to resurrect this thread, in order to share some new info on this specific subject.

At the link https://igor113.livejournal.com/933457.html, there's a mighty interesting pic of 'Yevgeny' holding an un-restored panel of the only preserved Yak-23UTI

It clearly shows the interior was painted with two, different layers of green paint and/or primer.

A well-known article by Vakhlamov & Orlov may cast some light on the use of green primers by the Soviet Aviation Industry.

Google translated '...The colors of green HVE-4 and light gray-blue HVE-16 were the same as for ALG-4 (or A-24g - the color of both corresponds to FS 14151) and ALG-16, respectively. ...'

Interestingly, according to several sources, FS34151 is the FS595B equivalent of the wartime Interior Green ANA 611, so ALG-4 would be nothing but a 'gloss' IG ANA 611.

So, ALG-4 could be one of the two green's (the lighter one?) in the panel Yevgeny is holding...

Best regards.

Good information, Pete, and a very useful link for Yak-23 details - wow! Thank you very much!

John

Glad to be of help, John.

Looking again at this walkaround, the general cockpit color of the preserved Yak-23UTI, which previously in this thread, was thought to possibly be the famed grey-green DK-23 (a.k.a. A-23m) of Yak-11 fame, seems now to be more on the green side (given the light conditions) and not unlike the color in the Polish Yak-23's cockpit before restoration.

Perhaps, the UV light, after a prolonged period of time, has caused the original green to chalks and fade, unlike the green inside the panel that, being far less exposed to said light, is much darker and closer to the original color.

Just my 2 cents...

Regards.