Sovietwarplanes

Post-war Aviation - The Jet Age => Yakovlevs => Topic started by: otto on December 28, 2012, 07:16:50 PM



Title: Yak-23 cockpit colors
Post by: otto on December 28, 2012, 07:16:50 PM
Hello everyone, and have a happy 2013!
I am planning to build a Special Hobby 1/72 Yak-23 and I need some expert?s help for the cockpit colors. The instruction sheet suggests light gray Gunze H57 for the entire cockpit, except the seat which is green H312.
This site (http://www.airgroup2000.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=224364) shows many cockpit pictures where the main parts seem natural aluminium or perhaps light gray, including the seat. The front instrument panel, left vertical console, control column, throttle and canopy frames are green. It seems an unrestored aircraft, if this is the case it could be reliable.
According to Mushroom N? 6124, the whole cockpit seems light gray (could it be AE9?).
Thank you in advance for your help.


Title: Re: Yak-23 cockpit colors
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on December 28, 2012, 08:15:31 PM
Hi Otto,
the inside looks grey-green, traces of color are visible on the nm parts as if it was removed.
Grey-green inside is displayed from some Russian Yak-9s too.
Akanihin has copied this color and sells it as AE-9, but I think that is not the AE-9 of SB, but another misidentified color.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Yak-23 cockpit colors
Post by: otto on December 28, 2012, 08:42:02 PM
Thank you Massimo!
Looking at the Yak-23 pictures as above and these (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=855.0) of the Yak-9, it seems to me that Humbrol 31, perhaps lightened for scale effect, could be a good match. Any suggestion?


Title: Re: Yak-23 cockpit colors
Post by: KL on December 28, 2012, 08:57:11 PM
This site (http://www.airgroup2000.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=224364) shows many cockpit pictures where the main parts seem natural aluminium or perhaps light gray, including the seat. The front instrument panel, left vertical console, control column, throttle and canopy frames are green. It seems an unrestored aircraft, if this is the case it could be reliable.
According to Mushroom N? 6124, the whole cockpit seems light gray (could it be AE9?).

Cockpit of the unrestored plane is dark green A-15f.  This was standard cockpit colour in late 1940es.
Check here:  http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=895.45
Table by Vahlamov & Orlov:
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/VVS%20colours/Interiorpaints-M-Hobby4-1999.jpg)

Translation:
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/VVS%20colours/Interiorcolours1999-4M-HobbyPt1.jpg)

the inside looks grey-green, traces of color are visible on the nm parts as if it was removed.
Grey-green inside is displayed from some Russian Yak-9s too.
Akanihin has copied this color and sells it as AE-9, but I think that is not the AE-9 of SB, but another misidentified color.

Gray-green cockpit is known from the Yak-9 which was preserved at OKB Yakovlev Museum, now in Zadorozhni museum.  This is the only authentic wartime Yak-9, but its colours are not authentic. The plane was overhauled in 1970es; its exterior was painted in spurious colours (light gray + gray-green  :-X) and its cockpit was painted in equaly wrong colour.
HTH,
KL


Title: Re: Yak-23 cockpit colors
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on December 28, 2012, 09:56:37 PM
Hi,
Quote
and its cockpit was painted in equaly wrong colour,
however it looks the same color of the Yak-23. Besides there are some layers of visible color, and are all variations of grey-green.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Yak-23 cockpit colors
Post by: otto on December 28, 2012, 10:20:26 PM
mmmm... :-\
So the gray green of the Yak-23 pictures could be aged dark green. The canopy frames appear darker than the instrument panel, possibly because they are more protected from light and handling. Things are more complicated than I expected!
Acording to the color table, the wheel bays were painted A-14f gray. This seems to be confirmed by the pictures in the Mushroom book, what do you think?


Title: Re: Yak-23 cockpit colors
Post by: KL on December 30, 2012, 10:29:11 AM
Use of Dark green as a cockpit colour is fact
Li-2 Restored in Hungary

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/22/Li-2_HA-LIX_Cockpit_01.jpg/800px-Li-2_HA-LIX_Cockpit_01.jpg)

Monino Li-2, green and gray
(http://russianplanes.net/images/to10000/009780.jpg)

Gray-green as designated colour for WWII Soviet planes is a myth.  Only at hyperscale forum you can find that Russians painted cockpits in RLM-02.  This forum should be better...


Title: Re: Yak-23 cockpit colors
Post by: otto on December 30, 2012, 10:23:37 PM
Thank you, Massimo and KL!
The Li-2 pictures show gray, green and gray-green paint applied on different items. This seems to match roughly with the Yak-23 pictures: green on instrument panel, control stick and canopy frames, gray on floor, walls and seat. The green paint is not so dark, so it could fade into a gray-green shade after several decades.


Title: Re: Yak-23 cockpit colors
Post by: Pete57 on December 31, 2012, 12:22:43 AM
Hi, :) my first post here.

According to http://www.airwar.ru/enc/other/yak11.html (http://www.airwar.ru/enc/other/yak11.html) (and a 'doctored' translation based on Google-translate - granted, not the best tool ;D)

"...Also in 1947 the specifications for oil matte enamel A-23m was approved. Its nitrocellulose counterpart was called DC-23 (probably, DC - for the cabin). Although in the specification the color for this enamel color was "gray-green", some of the data related to the later classification system for the shades of paints, suggest that it would be better to call it "a gray-green." A-23m was used for painting exterior surfaces, and, from 1946, at the factory No. 292, its nitro-based enamel and DC-23were used for the interior of the Yak-11. They were also used to paint the engine mounts, landing gear struts and covers, landing flaps, etc. ..."

I don't know how reliable the information is, but can't help wondering wondering if the painting practice for one type of Yakovlev aircraft was extended to all the other types...

Best regards,

Pete57


Title: Re: Yak-23 cockpit colors
Post by: KL on December 31, 2012, 06:00:44 AM
Hi Pete57,  :)
thanks for the interesting info!
It's from 2007-8 Modelist-Konstruktor, author is M. Orlov.  Magazine is available for download at http://publ.lib.ru/ARCHIVES/M/''Modelist-konstruktor''/_''Modelist-konstruktor''_2007_.html


Title: Re: Yak-23 cockpit colors
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on December 31, 2012, 01:04:07 PM
But so, is the inside color of Yak-11 identical to the outside, and similar to the grey-green of the Yak-9 in the museum? It's strange for me.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Yak-23 cockpit colors
Post by: learstang on December 31, 2012, 05:56:33 PM
Welcome to the forum, Pete57, and thank you for the information!

Best Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Yak-23 cockpit colors
Post by: KL on December 31, 2012, 10:56:58 PM
But so, is the inside color of Yak-11 identical to the outside, and similar to the grey-green of the Yak-9 in the museum? It's strange for me.

Orlov's text says something like: "Although the normativ name of the colour was "gray-green", it would be better to call it "greenish-gray""

So, it was more green than gray...  kind of...  ???

I would not rely much on those Yaks restored in 1970es, even if it was for OKB Yakovlev Museum.  Nobody cared about authentic colours in those times...


Title: Re: Yak-23 cockpit colors
Post by: Pete57 on January 04, 2013, 10:14:54 PM
But so, is the inside color of Yak-11 identical to the outside, and similar to the grey-green of the Yak-9 in the museum? It's strange for me.
Regards
Massimo

Indeed it's not very clear (or perhaps, it is the Google translation that makes it unclear...)

At one point it seems that the interior was in nitrocellulose DK-23, with the exterior in the oil-based enamel A-23m, but a few lines down it states that all the exterior surfaces were painted gray-blue AGT-16, switching, in the second half of 1953 until the end of production, in 1954 to perchlorovinyl enamel HVE-16 of the same shade as the AGT-16. ???

Unless A-23m was a primer and, following its application, the aircraft received a coat of AGT-16/HVE-16... ::)

Perhaps someone in the forum who speaks Russian could clarify :)...

According to http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_9888.html (http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_9888.html) Mig-9 and Yak-23 colors, Yak-23's were painted silver while MiG-9's were painted the same grey as the Yak-11 as per post # 6 by 'Summoner' and the confirmation, in post #7 by 'rueveet' who appearently known someone who had worked on the MiG-9.

I'm afraid, though, this doesn't clarify the matter :-[

Best regards,

Pete57


Title: Re: Yak-23 cockpit colors
Post by: Walker on January 04, 2013, 11:03:52 PM
Color cockpit could be gray and green in equal measure.
(http://storage8.static.itmages.ru/i/13/0105/s_1357336915_8546019_3c9e739dfe.jpeg) (http://itmages.ru/image/view/832697/3c9e739d) (http://storage5.static.itmages.ru/i/13/0105/s_1357336931_8251804_29e8491a3b.jpeg) (http://itmages.ru/image/view/832698/29e8491a)


Title: Re: Yak-23 cockpit colors
Post by: KL on January 05, 2013, 12:29:34 AM
Quote
Indeed it's not very clear (or perhaps, it is the Google translation that makes it unclear...)

not clear because Yak-23 is an obscure plane for Russian authors.  It wasn't a success story, it was made in relativelly small numbers.  It was in service with east european air forces in early 1950es; it was contemprary with early Mig-15s.

Monino Yak-17 was repainted many times.  Still, It looks that its interior could be more reliable:

(http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/5402/atm-01841.3f/0_2d513_51086d1_XL)

Quote
...in the second half of 1953 until the end of production, in 1954 to perchlorovinyl enamel HVE-16 of the same shade as the AGT-16

Perchlorvinil paints are not relevant for Yak-23.  those paints were used instead of nitro-cellulose paints for fabric.

HTH,
KL


Title: Re: Yak-23 cockpit colors
Post by: KL on January 05, 2013, 12:51:24 AM
More museum exhibits:

OKB Yakovlev/Zadorozhni Museum Yak-23 two-seater; most likely repainted in 1960es or 1970es - colour looks like Yak-52 cockpit colour.  Probably not authentic!!!

(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_eEKWgnrGMJo/SoZNDkjJNQI/AAAAAAAAAD8/cFp_TMqv-kk/s576/1317938.jpg)

Krakow Museum Yak-23 during recent restoration; instrument panel and console may have been repainted, dark green looks authentic!!!
(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_eEKWgnrGMJo/SvRumgNqlWI/AAAAAAAAAMQ/X0wNWI0AHOg/_P1090017.jpg)

HTH,
KL



Title: Re: Yak-23 cockpit colors
Post by: Pete57 on January 07, 2013, 09:55:24 AM
Hi,

Please bear with me...I'm still a little confused :-[

Was the cockpit painted a mix of grey and green or green only?

Would the grey be A-14?
Would the green be the greener version of the ALG-1 z/c primer, the ALG-5 or another color still?
And what would the landing gear wells and doors be painted?

Best regards,

Pete57


Title: Re: Yak-23 cockpit colors
Post by: KL on January 07, 2013, 09:13:45 PM
Was the cockpit painted a mix of grey and green or green only?

Would the grey be A-14?
Would the green be the greener version of the ALG-1 z/c primer, the ALG-5 or another color still?
And what would the landing gear wells and doors be painted?

cockpit walkaround at http://www.airgroup2000.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=224364 clearly show green instrument pannel, control stick and trotlle quadrant.  It looks that sides above consoles were originally green, and later repainted in light gray.  Side consoles may have been originally gray  ???.

(http://airgroup2000.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10006/instrument_panel2rs.jpg)

(http://airgroup2000.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10006/control_stick.jpg)

Green should be A-15f, the same that was used on wheels.

If there was any gray in cockpit, it was A-14f, like Yak-17 instr panel.

Landing gear wells and doors were gray A-14f.

HTH,
KL


Title: Re: Yak-23 cockpit colors
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on January 07, 2013, 10:09:13 PM
It seems that there are two different shades of green in this cockpit, the one on the control stick looks more yellowish.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Yak-23 cockpit colors
Post by: Pete57 on January 08, 2013, 08:23:52 AM
Thanks KL, very, very useful information :)

Green should be A-15f, the same that was used on wheels.

Please bear with me again  :-[ but I couldn't find this color anywhere on the 'VVS research page' of sovietwarplanes.com - perhaps, it should be added...:)
Is it in the Akan range? What would the closest FS595 equivalent be?

Best regards,

Pete57


Title: Re: Yak-23 cockpit colors
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on January 08, 2013, 08:33:22 AM
Hi,
this is a postwar color, I have not arrived to include it in the table unless I extend the time range to Soviet postwar planes. Does anyone know if there is already some serious site on this matter, aside the Akan catalogue?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Yak-23 cockpit colors
Post by: KL on January 08, 2013, 09:43:12 PM
Postwar planes/colours are not my field of expertise.  :)

A-15f is not included in 1948 "Albom Nakrasok", IMHO, DM Green in this catalogue should be very similar or the same as A-15f. DM Green was a postwar aviation nitrocellulose paint for interiors:

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/DM_Green_zps28a2c35a.jpg)

Green wheels + gray wheel wells are common on Mig-15s.  Following is chinese Mig-15 in Seatlle MoF

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/KL-Oct-2011-2005.jpg)

HTH,
KL


Title: Re: Yak-23 cockpit colors
Post by: Pete57 on January 10, 2013, 03:13:02 PM
Would the radome green (AKAN 73060) do, since it appears to be the same color as the wheel hubs?

Best regards,

Pete57


Title: Re: Yak-23 cockpit colors
Post by: otto on January 14, 2013, 04:59:10 PM
Thank you all for the huge amount of information!
I think I will stay with the pictures of airgroup 2000. I decided to install the pilot and keep the canopy closed, therefore not much will be visible inside  ;).


Title: Re: Yak-23 cockpit colors
Post by: KL on January 14, 2013, 07:24:10 PM
Would the radome green (AKAN 73060) do, since it appears to be the same color as the wheel hubs?

(http://akan.ru/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/_________________4d2eeb9e978d0.jpg)

no, I would go with dark green...  not faded, grayish green.  :)
KL


Title: Re: Yak-23 cockpit colors
Post by: Pete57 on January 19, 2013, 10:52:08 PM
Would the radome green (AKAN 73060) do, since it appears to be the same color as the wheel hubs?

(http://akan.ru/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/_________________4d2eeb9e978d0.jpg)

no, I would go with dark green...  not faded, grayish green.  :)
KL

Thanks KL,

Now I've got all the details I needed to start the MPM kit. :)
...well...I still need to find a bigger house where I'll have enough space to set up a modeling lab :( - currently living in a small apartment with my wife (Russian  ;)) and a 3yr old child...

One last question: would these interior colors apply to all the early Yak jets?

Regards,

Pete57


Title: Re: Yak-23 cockpit colors
Post by: Pete57 on March 04, 2013, 03:30:52 PM
Akan shows a ДМ зелёная in the 731xx-series (a future release?)
(link) http://akan.ru/index.php?page=shop.product_details&product_id=877&flypage=flypage.tpl&pop=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=2

Is this the correct color?

Regards,


Title: Re: Yak-23 cockpit colors
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on March 04, 2013, 05:01:28 PM
Hi Pete,
it would be good if Akanihin writes something on the use of each color, amd maybe on its samples. However, this is between ww2 colors.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Yak-23 cockpit colors
Post by: KL on March 04, 2013, 07:44:54 PM
Akan shows a ДМ зелёная in the 731xx-series (a future release?)
Is this the correct color?

Yes, that is the correct colour!

(http://akan.ru/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/_________________4dc14dbe887e2.jpg)

Compare it with photos:
(http://airgroup2000.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10006/instrument_panel2rs.jpg)

it would be good if Akanihin writes something on the use of each color, amd maybe on its samples. However, this is between ww2 colors.

Akanihin source is the same as mine - 1948 Albom Nakrasok:

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/DM_Green_zps28a2c35a.jpg)

HTH,
KL


Title: Re: Yak-23 cockpit colors
Post by: Pete57 on March 06, 2013, 09:37:45 AM
Massimo,

I agree with you and indeed this forum has provided long sought after (by me, at least) information :) that, to an extent, make up for Akanihin's lack of information.

KL,

Thanks for the information. :) :) :)

It appears that, so far as the Yak-23 is concerned, the DM Green was used, within  the cockpit, in those areas where the sun reflection could be an issue, i.e. instrument panel and the top of the side consoles which - I agree with you - appear to have been originally painted green. Was this, to your knowledge, OKB Yakovlev's and Lisunov's practice only or did it extend also to the other aircraft manufacturers?

Regards,

Pete57


Title: Re: Yak-23 cockpit colors
Post by: KL on March 06, 2013, 09:14:28 PM
According to Vahlamov and Orlov, dark green replaced steel gray as cockpit colour in late 1940es.  Dark green was used as cockpit colour on Tupolev's bombers too.
Only in early 1960es each OKB started to use their own colours:  Mig started with turquoise blue-green, Yakovlev with gray-green, Mil with light blue etc.
HTH,
KL


Title: Re: Yak-23 cockpit colors
Post by: Pete57 on March 07, 2013, 08:15:23 AM
Thanks Konstantin,

According to Vahlamov and Orlov, dark green replaced steel gray as cockpit colour in late 1940es.

Puzzling...???

The 1953 pictures of NKPAF Lt. No Kum Sok's MiG-15 Bis' cockpit, as well as those of the early 50's La-15s' cockpit come to mind: although they were b/w, the general color appeared definitely light, thus ruling out dark green...

Perhaps manufacturers were instructed to use up their stocks of grey (that would, to an extent, explain the grey / dark green cockpits) - or was grey still used at field-level repair?

Unless it was a situation like in wartime America where, even though the specifications called for the use of the specific Interior Green ANA 611 color, after 1943, aircraft manufacturer's kept on using their own green's (or their paint subcontractors') which I find unlikely, though, given how regulations were probably more strictly enforced in the late 40's / early 50's USSR than they were in wartime America...

Your thoughts?

Best regards,

Pete57


Title: Re: Yak-23 cockpit colors
Post by: KL on March 07, 2013, 07:03:22 PM
Sorry, my mistake!  Vahlamov and Orlov only have "late 1940" as the "beginning of use".  They didn't say that dark green replaced gray A-14...  :-[

1950es are not my field of expertize  :-X but I know for sure that gray was widely used as cockpit colour in trainers and sport planes during 1950es.  It looks that both dark green and gray were in use during 1950es; green was used more for larger multi-engine planes (transports, passenger planes and bombers) while gray was usually used for smaller single-engine planes.  But this should be confirmed at Russian forums...

Cheers,
KL  


Title: Re: Yak-23 cockpit colors
Post by: Pete57 on March 08, 2013, 08:08:58 AM
1950es are not my field of expertize  :-X

Konstantin,

For someone whose field of expertise are not the 50es, you sure provided me with LOTS OF MIGHTY USEFUL INFORMATION!  :) :) :)

With it, I can now tackle most present and future Soviet kits of the late 40es / early 50es, without fear of a major screw-up...well, at least so far as interior colors are concerned  ;)

TDH  ;D

Pete57


Title: Re: Yak-23 cockpit colors
Post by: KL on March 08, 2013, 07:14:35 PM
As a proof that bombers had dark green cockpit check Il-28 walkaround at http://apolo.koprivnice.org/walkarounds/Il-28/Il-28.htm
most of the cockpit (including floor) was covered with dark green quilted material.  Dark green paint was used on few exposed metal surfaces.  Pilots seat was gray...

(http://apolo.koprivnice.org/walkarounds/Il-28/Il-28_55.JPG)
(http://apolo.koprivnice.org/walkarounds/Il-28/Il-28_50.JPG)

Yak-18A cockpit

(http://www.academiaga.ru/gif/content/141_1306149175.jpg)

Mig-17 cockpit

(http://forums.airforce.ru/attachments/matchast/14984d1232633968-photo47.jpg/)

HTH,
KL


Title: Re: Yak-23 cockpit colors
Post by: Pete57 on September 03, 2013, 05:51:14 PM
More museum exhibits:

OKB Yakovlev/Zadorozhni Museum Yak-23 two-seater; most likely repainted in 1960es or 1970es - colour looks like Yak-52 cockpit colour.  Probably not authentic!!!


I'm briefly resurrecting this thread for a couple of questions

Does anybody know if this Yak-52 cockpit color applies to the Yak-30/32 trainers also(Amodel kits)? And if yes, would it apply to the cockpit only or to all the interior surfaces?

Also, does anybody know the official denomination and / or any model-paint equivalent?

Thanks & regards,

Pete57


Title: Re: Yak-23 cockpit colors
Post by: KL on September 04, 2013, 07:04:16 PM
IMHO, gray-green is colour used for cockpits of Yak military planes in 1970es and later, like Yak-38 - NOT relevant for Yak-30.

Original Yak-30 cockpit:
(http://www.e-reading-lib.com/illustrations/1010/1010126-neizyak_1672_img_149.jpg)

monino Yak-30:
(http://d.a.d-cd.net/a59afeu-480.jpg)

Yak-30 restored to flying condition:
(http://images.mipt-telecom.net/images/4/big/2013/01/14/632e6d0bbf0802be28b47966756fd485.jpg)
from  http://rdce.livejournal.com/26592.html
 


Title: Re: Yak-23 cockpit colors
Post by: Pete57 on September 06, 2013, 07:24:15 PM
KL,

Thanks for the info.

But then, would the Yak-30/32's cockpit grey (that other Russian walkarounds show to have been used also inside the nose and main l/g bays, inner portion of the doors, struts and wheel-hubs) be the A-14, ,i.e. could this paint have still been in use in the early 60's?

And if not, what would this paint be?

On a slightly different subject, I've bumped into a Russian web-site that deals with the colors of the VVS jets in the 50's http://www.wunderwaffe.narod.ru/Magazine/AK/2006_06/06.htm (http://www.wunderwaffe.narod.ru/Magazine/AK/2006_06/06.htm) that may be of interest to you (the Google translation, with its known limits, has provided useful ones - at least to me ;) )

Regards,

Pete57


Title: Re: Yak-23 cockpit colors
Post by: KL on September 07, 2013, 02:52:37 AM
Cockpits of primary trainers and sport planes were gray in 1970es and 1980es.  Gray interior colour can be still seen today in many Yak-52s.  Just Google images for як-52 кабина   :)

In 1960es paint designations were standardised - new system designations consisted of abbreviations for paint type and numbers that described some properties.  Oil paints code was MA, Alkyd paint's code was GF etc...  A-14 and A14f probably remained in production, but under new designations.

HTH,
KL


Title: Re: Yak-23 cockpit colors
Post by: Pete57 on September 23, 2013, 08:42:43 PM
Thanks KL,

Good info and sorry 'bout the late reply - been really busy lately :'(

Regards,

Pete57