Sovietwarplanes

Modeling Soviet Warplanes => Colors, schemes, & research => Topic started by: HenkNtb on January 06, 2013, 03:05:58 PM



Title: Green - green scheme
Post by: HenkNtb on January 06, 2013, 03:05:58 PM
Hallo guy's, this is my first posting, so perhaps its in the wrong place. I'm 'studying' camouflage schemes to use in the Il-2 Sthurmovik simulator. At the moment I'm looking at the Yak-1 and found in Eric Pilawskii's book the mentioning of a green / green scheme on page 133, 135 and 137. but, checking out http://airfield.narod.ru, I could not find a single green / green scheme there. So thats why I ask here: did the Yak 1 really did have a green / green scheme during the war?

Thanks for reading


Title: Re: Green - green scheme
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on January 06, 2013, 04:46:48 PM
Hi Henk,
accordink to known documents, a green-green camouflage was never considered in the standards of the VVS, what was often interpreted as darker green or red brown was probably black, more or less faded.
Of course, this don't necessarily mean that none Soviet aircraft was painted this way (some veterans speak of green-green paintings, for example), but available photos should be interpreted as according to the codified standard unless there are other good reasons to do differently. Yak-1s are planes that usually show an high contrast in photos (at least after 1941), so there is no doubt that the darker color was black.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Green - green scheme
Post by: HenkNtb on January 06, 2013, 05:12:14 PM
Wow that was quick, thanks Massimo  :)


Title: Re: Green - green scheme
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on January 06, 2013, 05:24:07 PM
You're welcome.


Title: Re: Green - green scheme
Post by: KL on January 06, 2013, 06:37:26 PM
Hi Henk,
AII Dark Greed mentioned in Pilawkii's book is pure fiction.  Dark green camouflage paints haven't been produced during the war in Soviet Union.  In reality, Soviet paint industry produced only one green camouflage colour - it was called "Protective" and it was olive green.

Since you are  'studying' camouflage schemes you should be aware of the "Pilawskii case".  His book is practically useless; most colours and schemes are fiction i.e. product of his imagination.  More on the following thread:  http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1071.0

HTH,
KL


Title: Re: Green - green scheme
Post by: HenkNtb on January 15, 2013, 09:45:00 PM
Hi KL, I have noticed that you are not a fan of Mr. Pilawskii.  ;) I grew up with the Profile publications, so anything looking more serious than 'The black-and-green camouflage on this aircraft originated with the use of stocks of paint held for the tractors previously build by the factory' * looked good. I have also seen rather great mistakes by Mr. P. on fighter performance in his book. I've learned a lot in my short time on this site.

* Quote from Air International vol. 20, page 42.


Title: Re: Green - green scheme
Post by: B_Realistic on January 16, 2013, 09:29:39 AM
Hi KL, I have noticed that you are not a fan of Mr. Pilawskii.  ;) I grew up with the Profile publications, so anything looking more serious than 'The black-and-green camouflage on this aircraft originated with the use of stocks of paint held for the tractors previously build by the factory' * looked good. I have also seen rather great mistakes by Mr. P. on fighter performance in his book. I've learned a lot in my short time on this site.

* Quote from Air International vol. 20, page 42.

I've opened my eyes also when I joined this site. :D
There is sometimes pritty intense conversations considering colors but you've got pro's here.


Title: Re: Green - green scheme
Post by: KL on January 16, 2013, 06:25:38 PM
Hi KL, I have noticed that you are not a fan of Mr. Pilawskii.  ;) I grew up with the Profile publications, so anything looking more serious than 'The black-and-green camouflage on this aircraft originated with the use of stocks of paint held for the tractors previously build by the factory' * looked good. I have also seen rather great mistakes by Mr. P. on fighter performance in his book. I've learned a lot in my short time on this site.

* Quote from Air International vol. 20, page 42.

Hi HenkNtb,
Thanks for posting this - I believe that cold war era myths should be uprooted (The real history is more interesting).  Sometimes it helps to identify the origin of the story and to prove it is a myth...

I also grew up with William Green's and Gordon Swanborugh's texts in 1970es and 1980es.  I know well that those two authors absorbed everything that appeared in Soviet popular literature at that time.  This can not be said for Pilawskii - he rejected most of Orlov's and Vahlamov's research from late 1990es.  Plus, he continued to propagate myths from 1970es...  This made him not a historian.
KL


Title: Re: Green - green scheme
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on January 16, 2013, 08:22:06 PM
Hi all,
you know that I have not any admiration for EP, but it's bad to continue personal attacks against him.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Green - green scheme
Post by: HenkNtb on January 16, 2013, 09:29:44 PM
Yes you're right Massimo, and I think there's no more difficult terain than colour. So many influences different batches, different preparations, different underground preparation, almost to many to mention.


Title: Re: Green - green scheme
Post by: KL on January 17, 2013, 07:50:38 AM
Hi all,
you know that I have not any admiration for EP, but it's bad to continue personal attacks against him.

Yes you're right Massimo, and I think there's no more difficult terain than colour. So many influences different batches, different preparations, different underground preparation, almost to many to mention.

It's not about personal attacks, and not about the shades of green.  It's about desinformation that Pilawskii spreads.  Not minor details, his book and website provide totally wrong picture of VVS camouflage practices.
First post refers to his book, more specifically to one of the many cases when he made up things.  I think it is fair to warn new forum member how unreliable is Pilawskii's book.
KL