Sovietwarplanes

Modeling Soviet Warplanes => Colors, schemes, & research => Topic started by: 66misos on January 17, 2013, 09:16:13 AM



Title: Single grey on b/w photos ?
Post by: 66misos on January 17, 2013, 09:16:13 AM
Hi,

in this thread http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1136.msg6921#msg6921  (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1136.msg6921#msg6921) was discussion whether there was also single grey (AMT-11 or AMT12) during WW2.

This picture was given by KL as example:
(http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/fww2/la9/la9-8.jpg)
with the comment:
Quote
Photographic evidence suggests single gray for individual planes which may have been repainted in units.  I wouldn?t rush ? better quality photos usually show that planes were actually camouflaged in standard two-gray scheme.

While watching TV series Крылья России - Истребители - Грозовые годы (Wings of Russia) on Youtube I just found sequence from which I made following screenshots:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/La-9/La-9_mix.jpg)

It looks like same planes, once on b/w photo and once on color film. And what appears as single grey scheme is in this particular case red painting. No single grey.

Regards,
     66misos



Title: Re: Single grey on b/w photos ?
Post by: warhawk on January 17, 2013, 01:58:30 PM
Is there a way to prove that first and subsequent pictures show the same squadron?


Title: Re: Single grey on b/w photos ?
Post by: 66misos on January 17, 2013, 02:32:36 PM
Hi Warhawk,

all pictures (plus some others) can be found in TV series Крылья России - Истребители - Грозовые годы (Wings of Russia) at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYrIIh5XTpQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYrIIh5XTpQ) from 46:45 to 47:56 and from 48:15 to 48:30 (without board numbers)
As it is montage, it is not exact proof that all that planes are from the same squadron.
From 49:15 there are La-11 during some arctic flight. However their undewings seems to have the same dark color as fuselage and underwings and quite glossy (and with board numbers).

regards,
    66misos



Title: Re: Single grey on b/w photos ?
Post by: Troy Smith on January 17, 2013, 04:16:53 PM
HI 66misos

there was a thread here on La-7 profiles
http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=818.0

where I posted this
Quote
This  looks like single upper colour on these La-7's, with I presume red nose and rudder tabs?  A (looks same colour as stars) A little blurred but the La-7 badges and cowl bands are visible.
Dated April 1945.
(P32 MBI La-7 book.  posted as 'fair use')

AMT-12 upper surfaces it appears, as AMT-12 was applied first, with AMT-11 applied over this, if I remember a posting somewhere on here correctly.

(http://i646.photobucket.com/albums/uu181/hurricanebuild/La7-singleuppercolor176GIAPp32MBI.jpg)

HTH
T


Title: Re: Single grey on b/w photos ?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on January 17, 2013, 05:31:36 PM
Hi Misos, hi Warhawk,
very interesting images! I don't know if the bw photo is of the same planes, but there is no doubt that a bw version of the same images would be interpreted as a green/blue or grey/blue plane in absence of other informations.
For what I know, overall La-9 were used for tests of an airfield on the northern ice, and there are some red/blue Yak-3s too.
However these cases are the exception, I won't see any dark uppersurface as a proof of a red one.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Single grey on b/w photos ?
Post by: 66misos on January 17, 2013, 05:59:16 PM
Hi All,
thank you very much for your inputs.
I just want to say that what appears single grey on b/w photo need not be necessary single grey in reality.
I do not want to say that what appears single grey on b/w photo must be red in reality. ;)

Thanks to Troy's post I found what I already look for:
Quote
Orlov did write that right after war gray-gray scheme was changed just to AMT-11 on the top and in late 1947/early 1948 to AGT-16.
So I suspect that some b&w pix are dated wrong and show some planes after post-war repainting. This would explain appearance of some planes such as Dolgushin's La-7. Remind you that standard painting procedure for gray-gray scheme was to spray AMT-12 (darker) first and then the areas in AMT-11 according to desired pattern which, contrary to popular belief, was vastly (fully) adhered to by manufacturers.

How widely used were those La-9/11 during WW2?

Regarding mentioned Dolgushin plane I have only this (poor quality) photo:
(http://wunderwaffe.narod.ru/Magazine/AirWar/70/Pictures/42.jpg)
I am really far from being able to say anything about single grey vs. two grey camo based on it.

Regards,
     66misos


Title: Re: Single grey on b/w photos ?
Post by: learstang on January 17, 2013, 06:13:45 PM
The La-9/11 were not used at all during WWII.  They were completely postwar.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Single grey on b/w photos ?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on January 17, 2013, 08:08:28 PM
Hi all,
after grey uppersurfaces, green uppersurfaces were used too. A veteran said that La-9s were green and blue as prewar I-16s. Besides somewhere there is a photo  of a postwar Yak (Bulgarian I think) that was repainted green over grey.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Single grey on b/w photos ?
Post by: 66misos on January 17, 2013, 08:32:51 PM
Hi,
those La-9/11 had metal surface, not wood/fabric, if I remember correctly. If yes, then they are irrelevant in the discussion about single AMT grey vs. two AMT grey during WW2 era (on La-7 - Kozedub, Dolgushin etc).
If they were grey I think it was paint other than AMT11/12.
Postwar green/blue camo is possible. At least on Il-10 it was usual.

Regards,
     66misos


Title: Re: Single grey on b/w photos ?
Post by: learstang on January 17, 2013, 11:37:27 PM
Despite a superficial resemblance to the earlier Lavochkins, the La-9/11 were completely new designs, of all-metal construction.  They did not even enter production until after WWII.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Single grey on b/w photos ?
Post by: KL on January 18, 2013, 12:34:22 AM
Disruptive camouflage was a wartime measure - VVS planes were not (factory) camouflaged neither before 1941, nor after 1945.

Solid gray during the war seems to be a myth.  Certain author/profile artist based it on a few blured photos, few misdated photos and his imagination.

KL  


Title: Re: Single grey on b/w photos ?
Post by: 66misos on January 18, 2013, 10:10:05 AM
Hi,
I only do not understand why on some photos difference between AMT11 and AMT12 is so evident:

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/La-7/la7_2.jpg)  (summer shot)

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/La-7/la7etalon1.jpg)  (winter shot)

and on others hardly noticeable:

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/La-7/Image001b.jpg)
Here only rudder shows some little evidence of AMT11+AMT12.

Regards,
     66misos


Title: Re: Single grey on b/w photos ?
Post by: Troy Smith on January 19, 2013, 12:59:53 AM
and on others hardly noticeable:

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/La-7/Image001b.jpg)
Here only rudder shows some little evidence of AMT11+AMT12.

Regards,
     66misos
HI 66misos

I don't have the MBI book to hand, [which I think is where I saw the pic before] but I think bort 69 is not AMT-11/12 uppers, but is a single colour upper.
IIRC it is a post war photo, hence being inspected by all the civilians and  note the different style of '69' in black[?]

I have formed the impression that single colours upper surfaces appeared quite soon after the end of the war, possibly to keep the ground crews busy...

I think bort 69 maybe a 3-gun plane as well [I was looking for photograph document 3 gun nose planes for my Gavia kit, as opposed to these http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Markings/La7-3gun/index.php]
Has anyone apart from Erik seen these photos?

As an aside, a chap I corresponded with on Britmodeller knew Erik when he was in the Bristol area, and he said he was shown some photos he could not publish.
Probably worth a new thread....
cheers
T


Title: Re: Single grey on b/w photos ?
Post by: learstang on January 19, 2013, 01:11:16 AM
Troy, I think it is a 3-cannon La-7 as well.  It appears to have the elongated gun fairings of that variant.  If that is a GPW aircraft, it's rather odd - not only the bort but look at that fuselage star; something strange is going on there.  This is almost certainly a postwar example.  Too bad, really, as I'd love to do a single-grey La-7 (I realise I still could, but I'm sticking to GPW aeroplanes for now).  I think it'd look quite appealing.  Oh well, at one time I was ready to do a tractor green/black Il-2 because I liked the look of it.  Too bad facts have to get in the way sometimes.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Single grey on b/w photos ?
Post by: 66misos on January 19, 2013, 09:22:37 PM
Hi Troy and Jason,

I found picture of that dark (black?) "69" also in the Osprey book Lagg&Lavochkin Aces of World War 2.
Text accompanying that photo says "Relatively rare piece of La-7 armed with 3 cannons Berezin B-20 of 20mm caliber is surrounded by soviet people during Exhibition of Victory organized in summer 1945 in Leningrad".

However I still think it has two grey camo - see difference between lighter and darker color on the rudder (just above left peak of the star), on the upper fuselage between digit 9 and rudder and on the left horizontal stabilizer between trimmer and right hinge - basically all are there where one could expect them according to the NKAP AMT11+AMT12 scheme.
Plane is just cleaned and polished so difference between two greys is not so evident on this overexposed photo taken during sunny day from this particular direction.

Regards,
     66misos


Title: Re: Single grey on b/w photos ?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on January 19, 2013, 10:45:28 PM
Hi all, hi Misos
Quote
However I still think it has two grey camo - see difference between lighter and darker color on the rudder (just above left peak of the star), on the upper fuselage between digit 9 and rudder and on the left horizontal stabilizer between trimmer and right hinge - basically all are there where one could expect them according to the NKAP AMT11+AMT12 scheme.
Plane is just cleaned and polished so difference between two greys is not so evident on this overexposed photo taken during sunny day from this particular direction.

The number 69 is smaller than factory painted numbers, so the plane has to have been repainted over the camouflaged base. Contrast between fresh camo colors should be strong, so I think that was repainted in uniform grey, and some traces of the previous camo are unperfectly covered by the new paint.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Single grey on b/w photos ?
Post by: 66misos on January 20, 2013, 09:24:51 AM
Hi Massimo,

photo was taken on the afterwar exhibition. That plane could be repainted just for purpose of that exhibition, fast and not very standard. It could explain nonstandard board number 69 and at least remnants of two grey camo on the rear fuselage and tail.
And then it could also mean that this 3-cannon La-7 had AMT11+AMT12 camo during the war.

 regards,
     66misos


Title: Re: Single grey on b/w photos ?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on January 20, 2013, 11:28:43 AM
Hi Misos,
yes, the plane was certainly camouflaged during the war. You can guess that the numbers were not black, but of standard white with blue outline (but considering the decals available, it's better to suppose that it had red outline).
About the unpublished photos of Erik, I think they could have been prints from the web, not necessarily from archives opened for him only.
Regards
Massimo