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Sovietwarplanes

Modeling Soviet Warplanes => Colors, schemes, & research => Topic started by: erussell on February 09, 2013, 12:19:35 AM



Title: Ladies' decoration
Post by: erussell on February 09, 2013, 12:19:35 AM
The new Osprey book on Pe-2 Guards Regiments includes this photo

(http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m581/erussell2000/Pe-2_01_zps6b5e6b0e.jpg)

The associated profile has the swallow in blue. Given real ones are brownish grey, is there any reason to think it was light blue?
Who knows - there may be a written reference somewhere........


Title: Re: Ladies' decoration
Post by: Troy Smith on February 09, 2013, 02:48:48 AM
HI Ed

IIRC your in Australia?

In Europe swallows are blue on top... they don't tend to look this blue unless in good light though. But not light blue.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/24/Landsvale.jpg/800px-Landsvale.jpg)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barn_Swallow

Are there pics of the whole plane though?  Now that would be interesting.  Or have they presumed a bort number from the constructor number? 

HTH
T


Title: Re: Ladies' decoration
Post by: erussell on February 09, 2013, 05:10:08 AM
Thanks - that looks like a 'Chernobyl' swallow which glows in the dark! lol

It's interesting where modelling takes you.... I now know that's a Barn Swallow, that swallows are cosmopolitan and many swallows migrate to the Southern Hemisphere including Australia in winter.

I was thinking a Barn Swallow looked more like this guy.......

(http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m581/erussell2000/467px-Hirundo_rustica_young_male_spring_NRM_zpsd95cda35.jpg)

That is the only picture I know of to show this plane (edit - see below!). My next question was where did they get the "89" but you have probably answered it - by deduction from the constructors' number.

So, next question, how does one deduce the bort number 89 from c/n 14/136?


Title: Re: Ladies' decoration
Post by: learstang on February 09, 2013, 05:33:37 AM
How do you deduce a bort from the construction number?  The c/n is assigned by the zavod, the factory, whilst the bort is assigned by the polk, or regiment.  Is this not correct?

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Ladies' decoration
Post by: Troy Smith on February 09, 2013, 06:16:27 AM
Ed

that looks the Swallows I used to see 20 or so years ago, don't see them these days here, which is southern England. [I was interested in birds before planes]  In England they are just Swallows.
It's basically dark blue though, not brownish grey...

I'm very skeptical of profiles without a photo these days though.

Jason, I'd love to know how they got the bort number too.

I must go to bed


later
T




Title: Re: Ladies' decoration
Post by: learstang on February 09, 2013, 06:40:03 AM
The real question becomes, are these European or African swallows, and are they laden or unladen?  (This question is no doubt incomprehensible to anyone not familiar with British humour of the last 40 or so years.)

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Ladies' decoration
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on February 09, 2013, 06:54:37 AM
Hi,
maybe some of these ladies has written some book of memories where the number can be read. For what I know, only Lavochkins had their bort number painted in factory with the last two ciphers of the factory number. Maybe you could contact the author to question about this.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Ladies' decoration
Post by: erussell on February 10, 2013, 07:39:24 AM
This would appear to validate the "89". I do like it when people produce good evidence.

(http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m581/erussell2000/Pe-2_Fedotova__zps2ec9fc7a.jpg)

Any opinions on colour scheme?



Title: Re: Ladies' decoration
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on February 10, 2013, 08:49:15 AM
Hi,
good image indeed. Was it sent by the author?
The plane has certainly a 3 colors camouflage typical of bombers after August 1943.
Maybe this page can give some help, even if the late camouflages of Pe-2s seem to have  been not very repetitive.
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/pe2/pe2camo/pe2camo.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/pe2/pe2camo/pe2camo.htm)
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Ladies' decoration
Post by: erussell on February 11, 2013, 10:08:18 AM
That page is quite helpful. The Osprey book has it in two greys with a light blue bird.
The picture came as an anonymous email but it may have been from the reclusive Reina Pennington as I have asked her for pictures before. I didn't know she read this forum though.


Title: Re: Ladies' decoration
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on February 11, 2013, 11:30:06 AM
Anonymous email? looks mysterious...
I don't think that this plane was in two-gray pattern. I think to see three shades on the fuselage.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Ladies' decoration
Post by: erussell on February 12, 2013, 03:59:26 AM
I think you are probably right about 3 upper colours.
I guess the last question is what does the constructor number 14/136 tell us about the date of build and what series of Pe-2 this plane is?


Title: Re: Ladies' decoration
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on February 12, 2013, 09:52:49 AM
Hi,
the exhaust stacks are separed, so it looks a late plane. At present time I have not good knowkledge of the evolution of Pe-2, but the Squadron describes this variant as 'serie 359 built in summer 1944 and later; it should have a forward-moved small retractable windshield on the back hatch.
If I'm wrong about exhausts, and 139 is the serie, according to the Squadron it should have large pipe-like exhausts, wood aft fuselage with beaver-shaped tail, and two smalll side windows under the nose deleted, with the retractable windshield overposed to the hatch's doors.
Serie 115 was built in Autumn 1942, so 139 could have been built in winter 1942/43 and have black-green finish. This don't seem the case of the photo.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Ladies' decoration
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on February 12, 2013, 05:38:36 PM
Hi,
I quote part of a mail by Alex Ruchkosky on this subject:
Quote
Hello Ed and Massimo,
Sorry guys I really have no time to post anything at the forum but let me just email you what I can say about the 125 GBAP plane. Use it as you like.
First of all, lets not regard the Squadron or Osprey book as anything useful except a source of photos. Peter Smith's book (Crowood) is better even though it has its owen share of mistakes.
Speaking of plane #89, I cant agree with Massimo that we can see any individual exhaust pipes, I think it could be a single-piece collector which we dont see behind the wing. 125GBAP had planes of quite a few different series at different times, see pictures below.

Also, as we see, the aerial mast is located at the rear end of the pilot canopy, so this would make it a so-called "series 179" plane that has already has 105PF engines bot not yet all those series 205-211 improvements: no air brake fairings, no bomb rack refinements, no rounded lower engine cowls. If you look at this rough scheme I once did - the left sketch is what you need for PF planes before srs205; center is series 205-->, and right is early pe2 with RA engines (reduction gear and prop shaft a bit lower than PF, hence the upper cowl is more sloping).

 Production time probably second half of 1943. 3-color scheme quite possible. Hardly possible for 2-tone grey as it does have 3 apparent shades on the fuselage.
I would not quess on colors of swallows :) Those ladies have never been to Australia for sure, and also finding dark blue paint could have been tricky. I must refresh texts I read on the 125th but if my memory serves me right there could have been more than 1 plane with the swallow painting. So 14/136 should not necessarily be tactical 89.
I have attached what I have on the 125th planes. Hope it helps :)

I'll add the images as soon as possible. About the swallow: my idea is that it's painted black and white.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Ladies' decoration
Post by: KL on February 12, 2013, 10:02:37 PM
I guess the last question is what does the constructor number 14/136 tell us about the date of build and what series of Pe-2 this plane is?

If this is a factory number  ???, then it is 14th plane of the 136 series.  Each series should have had 20 planes.
Zavod 22 production by year from wikipedia http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D0%B5-2

1940 - 0
 
1941 - 1120 planes
 
1942 - 1937 planes
 
1943 - 2423 planes
 
1944 - 2944 planes
 
1945 - 1634 planes

This should give you an idea what series were made in what year - planes of the136th series were made in 1942...

HTH,
KL


Title: Re: Ladies' decoration
Post by: KL on February 13, 2013, 06:44:57 PM
Series by year were approximatelly:

1941 - 1120 planes -> 56 Series -> Series 1 to Series 56
 
1942 - 1937 planes -> 96 Series -> Series 57 to Series 152
 
1943 - 2423 planes -> 121 series -> Series 153 to Series 273
 
1944 - 2944 planes -> 147 Series -> Series 274 to Series 420
 
1945 - 1634 planes  ->  81 Series -> Series 421 to Series 503

over 1000 Pe-2s were made by other, "shadow", factories.  Those factories utilized their own Series numbers.
HTH,
KL


Title: Re: Ladies' decoration
Post by: erussell on February 19, 2013, 10:57:44 AM
Thanks for that useful production information Konstantin - you are a veritable mine of info!

I initially thought the birds were different but, from my rough calculation the bird is in the same position and aspect on both pictures.

(http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m581/erussell2000/Pe-2_birds_zpsa725cf5d.jpg)