Sovietwarplanes

Great Patriotic War Aviation => MiGs => Topic started by: Seawinder on March 02, 2013, 06:23:09 PM



Title: Need help with MiG-3 seatbelts
Post by: Seawinder on March 02, 2013, 06:23:09 PM
Does anybody have any information on where/how the seatbelts were attached to the back plate? I have the Eduard PE set; they would have you cut a slot through the middle of the lower cushion, which seem unlikely to me. I'm thinking maybe between the cushion and the headrest?

TIA.
Pip


Title: Re: Need help with MiG-3 seatbelts
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on March 02, 2013, 08:22:12 PM
Hi Pip,
I did some researches, it seems so from some factory drawings. But you can take into account that the back belts were often omitted because they obstacled the pilot when he had to look back.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Need help with MiG-3 seatbelts
Post by: Seawinder on March 02, 2013, 10:08:31 PM
Hi Pip,
I did some researches, it seems so from some factory drawings. But you can take into account that the back belts were often omitted because they obstacled the pilot when he had to look back.
Regards
Massimo

Oh well, I went ahead and cut a slot for the back belts, so I'll use the Eduard belts. Thanks, Massimo!

Incidentally, I'm going to do White 36, for which you made a profile: http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/mig3/white36.html. I've done the artwork on my computer for the numbers, and I'll have them printed by Joseph Osborn of Fireball Modelworks. One question: Your illustration of the upper surfaces (which I know is hypothetical), has black banding only on the wings, not the horizontal tails. Is there any likelihood they might have been there as well?

Pip


Title: Re: Need help with MiG-3 seatbelts
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on March 03, 2013, 12:02:12 AM
Hi Pip,
the slot has to be there even if the belts are not installed.
White 36... be careful, I'm not sure that it was really camouflaged. The video gives a strong impression of camouflage, but the static photos seem to show a green uppersurface. That unit had both green and camouflaged planes, so I can't say for sure. Other authors have drawn it as green.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Need help with MiG-3 seatbelts
Post by: Seawinder on March 03, 2013, 02:47:16 AM
Hi Massimo.
Are the videos and/or static photos available to see somewhere online? Truthfully, I'm not going to be too worried about whether or not this particular plane had the camouflage if it was found on at least some planes in the unit. I'm trying to do a series of models that illustrate the principal VVS color schemes for a future presentation for my club.I have the I-16 for the overall AII Green, so this would be the next step in the chronology.

Pip


Title: Re: Need help with MiG-3 seatbelts
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on March 03, 2013, 07:43:32 AM
Hi Pip, the only static photo I know is shown aside the profile, and is from the book of Maslov, Medvedev and Hazanov. It is ambiguous. The movie is certainly available on the web, I don't know where, and the photo is almost surely from the movie. I have an old tape of it, but it will be easier to look on Youtube.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Need help with MiG-3 seatbelts
Post by: FPSOlkor on March 03, 2013, 03:28:27 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wTZjYGyl-4&feature=player_embedded


Title: Re: Need help with MiG-3 seatbelts
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on March 03, 2013, 04:01:28 PM
Here is it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ta6hy7IzWwc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ta6hy7IzWwc)
at 0' 42''.
This is better than my tape. It is ambiguous, but I suspect that the black parts could be a joke of the smoke and the shadows.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Need help with MiG-3 seatbelts
Post by: Seawinder on March 04, 2013, 12:04:23 AM
Hi Massimo and FPSOlkor.
Thanks both of you for the video links.

Massimo, are you saying you think maybe even the nose of White 36 wasn't black? It certainly looks like a darker color at the beginning of the video sequence, but seems to fade away as the plane turns further. I'm wondering if perhaps the nose was black but with a vertical or even back slanted demarcation (like some other planes shown), and an exhaust stain gives the impression of the black sweeping down to the wing. I'm thinking more like White 17 (as in the Trumpeter instructions) with an added exhaust stain. In any case, it's certainly hard to see any evidence of black bands on the wings.

Do you have any idea why black was applied to the noses of these planes at all (assuming it was)? Doesn't seem to add much in the way of camouflage.

Pip


Title: Re: Need help with MiG-3 seatbelts
Post by: KL on March 04, 2013, 12:40:23 AM
Massimo, are you saying you think maybe even the nose of White 36 wasn't black? It certainly looks like a darker color at the beginning of the video sequence, but seems to fade away as the plane turns further.
... In any case, it's certainly hard to see any evidence of black bands on the wings.
Do you have any idea why black was applied to the noses of these planes at all (assuming it was)? Doesn't seem to add much in the way of camouflage.

Check here for regiments short history: http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/401-%D0%B9_%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B1%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9_%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B0%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BA

Rushed into the combat 8 days after German attack.  disbanded 1.5 months later afer loosing more than half of its pilots.  Maybe they did not have time for camouflage, tactical or personal markings...
HTH,
KL


Title: Re: Need help with MiG-3 seatbelts
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on March 04, 2013, 07:11:05 AM
This is likely. The plane was surely built with prewar livery, then the question is if there are black repaintings. The tape I saw seem to show black parts but now I suspect that this was wrong, a joke of shadows and bad quality of the tape. Being in doubt, I suggest to change your choice, if you really want a camouflaged plane.
About black noses on other MiG-3s: it could have been a way to improve the cooling of the engine panels.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Need help with MiG-3 seatbelts
Post by: Seawinder on March 04, 2013, 06:19:13 PM
This is likely. The plane was surely built with prewar livery, then the question is if there are black repaintings. The tape I saw seem to show black parts but now I suspect that this was wrong, a joke of shadows and bad quality of the tape. Being in doubt, I suggest to change your choice, if you really want a camouflaged plane.
About black noses on other MiG-3s: it could have been a way to improve the cooling of the engine panels.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo.
How about White 42 from the 401st (another of your profiles)? The photo certainly seems to show a color demarcation indicating the nose was painted black.

Is there in fact any solid documentation supporting the black bands on the wings of any of these planes? I can't see any in either the video or the photos you've supplied in your MiG pages.

Best,
Pip


Title: Re: Need help with MiG-3 seatbelts
Post by: KL on March 04, 2013, 07:12:53 PM
All those black noses are very, very, very suspicious...
Link to scalemodels.ru thread about S. Suprun's Mig-3 (tail No 13): http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_16321.html
Two photos posted there (one is from Massimo's Mig-3 book)
(http://s2.postimage.org/5mwcg7ppl/401_57.jpg)
(http://s2.postimage.org/vwnzmtaav/Image1.jpg)

Mig-3 No 36 was supposedly plane of the famous test pilot A. Kubishkin
(http://airaces.narod.ru/all6/kubyshk4.jpg)
(http://allaircraft.ru/uploads/posts/2012-06/1339148186_mig3-c1.jpg)
(http://airaces.narod.ru/all/mig3_401.jpg)

It is obvious that 401 iap on Mig-3s were not camouflaged.  It is safe to assume that they were in factory colours.  Black noses are not associated with any type of new planes introduced in 1941 - Il-2s (same engine) didn't have black noses, Yak-1 and Lagg-3s didn't have black noses, I-16 Type 29 (also introduced in 1941) did not have black noses.
HTH,
KL


Title: Re: Need help with MiG-3 seatbelts
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on March 04, 2013, 07:43:20 PM
It's likely. Only, the profiles should have much smaller red stars.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Need help with MiG-3 seatbelts
Post by: tinleeds on June 10, 2014, 10:14:58 PM
Hi Massimo. Probably I'm a bit late but we got some information from Russian handbook for MiG-3 and they says  there is no shoulder straps on this plane...

(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-3LrnJmqW2CY/U5dlEIGTpVI/AAAAAAAAJTY/ammcHbbKEBE/w446-h615-no/nostraps.jpg)

here is tread about it http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_6048_start_0.html (http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_6048_start_0.html)  on a page 28.
Ivan


Title: Re: Need help with MiG-3 seatbelts
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 10, 2014, 10:28:29 PM
Hi Ivan,
this is interesting. I wonder if they are considered an optional. Some sketches do exist but they don't seem to agree with the photos of the recovered armoured back that doesn't show slots or other joint points for them.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Need help with MiG-3 seatbelts
Post by: tinleeds on June 10, 2014, 11:06:49 PM
Hi Massimo. This handbook said "no shoulder straps  for now but maybe fitted latter" I am a Russian and if Russian telling you "not for now but maybe I'll do it latter" that means (99%) - never :)
As you know production of MiG-3 was stopped to get priority for IL-2 (engines) I'm pretty sure that this aircraft, especially the earlier version never had shoulder straps. Again - have no photographs with shoulder straps, and the recollections of pilots, there were cases of injury against the dashboard during the emergency landing, which may indirectly indicate a lack of shoulder straps. But this is just my opinion and may differ from yours. :)
 Regards
Ivan. 


Title: Re: Need help with MiG-3 seatbelts
Post by: KL on June 10, 2014, 11:10:17 PM
Scanned document is a preseries MiG-1 flight test report and the photo shows I-200 seat.  Text above the photo says that tested plane didn't have shoulder straps and that the straps "will be installed", presumably on series machines.  Were they really installed on series MiG-3s, nobody knows...

Regards,
KL

PS.  This was posted while I was typing:
Hi Massimo. This handbook said "no shoulder straps  for now but maybe fitted latter" I am a Russian and if Russian telling you "not for now but maybe I'll do it latter" that means (99%) - never :)

Strictly speaking it doesn't say "for now" and it doesn't say "maybe"!!!
It only describes then current situation - "shoulder straps are absent" and what will be done in near future - "they will be installed later on"  


Title: Re: Need help with MiG-3 seatbelts
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 11, 2014, 06:21:30 AM
Hi,
for now, I can't see belts nor their junction points or slots  on the backrest plate of MiG-3s.
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/internal-colors-primers/mig3internalstrut.jpg)
It would be good to look at photos of pilots in the cockpits, to see if there are other belts overposed to those of the parachute.
Regards
Massimo