Sovietwarplanes

I acquired one of these a few months ago and am considering it for a build in the near future. Closer inspection of the parts unfortunatly reveals sink marks on the fuselage sides corresponding to the internal framework. Most of the sink marks are in the area with the representation of the stretched fabric. Has anybody dealt with this issue yet? I have a feeling it will show under paint if left as is, but filling/sanding is going to damage some of the fabric effect.

Pip

Pip, would you post a picture so we can see (I don't have this particular kit)?

Regards,

Jason

Two possibilities:
(1) Apply coats of Mr Surfacer until you're satisfied you've built up enough to fill in the sunken area, then rub it down smooth with isopropyl (rubbing) alcohol applied with a cotton swab. Nail polish remover usually works too, although it depends on the formula - some may attack the plastic, which the rubbing alcohol won't.
(2) Build up several layers of Future, then rub down with Windex or a similar ammonia-bearing window cleaner. I've done this before, to fill in excessive rib detail on control surfaces; the dried Future resists most paints (especially acrylics)  with no problem, but you might want to experiment first.

John

Hi Jason.
Here are two shots of the problem area. The sink marks are quite subtle, and the plastic is white, so it was hard to get them to show clearly, but they're there! You can make out the most forward two in the unmarked version, and all four are marked in blue in the second version.

(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj243/pnmoss/Sinkmark1_zpsac2495da.jpg)
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj243/pnmoss/Sinkmark2_zps8b3537be.jpg)

Pip

Hi Pip, I would go with a small amount of putty put with a thin spatula whose edge is parallel to the struts. Then you can work with a curved blade in each single recess between the struts. Then sand carefully parallel to the struts in each single recess.
Regards
Massimo

Yes, I think it's do-able with care. It won't take very much filler -- the marks are very slight.
Pip

[/quote]

Two possibilities:
(1) Apply coats of Mr Surfacer until you're satisfied you've built up enough to fill in the sunken area, then rub it down smooth with isopropyl (rubbing) alcohol applied with a cotton swab. Nail polish remover usually works too, although it depends on the formula - some may attack the plastic, which the rubbing alcohol won't.
(2) Build up several layers of Future, then rub down with Windex or a similar ammonia-bearing window cleaner. I've done this before, to fill in excessive rib detail on control surfaces; the dried Future resists most paints (especially acrylics)  with no problem, but you might want to experiment first.

John
[/quote]

I would go for option one. Add the Mr Surfacer, then sand the greater part with a glass fiber pen and then rub it down with the isopropyl alcohol. My Modelsvit yak has the same problem  ::)

Not surprising since it's the same mold. Thanks for the suggestion, but what is a glass fiber pen? Never come across one of those before.
Pip

This is a glass fiber pen. I use it for sanding PE or difficult area's
(http://s20.postimg.org/xu9t27r95/foto_24_03_2013_013.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/xu9t27r95/)

Regards,

Remco

I'm finding myself with more questions:

1. Some of the kit profiles seem to show under-wing stars with black outlines, and such stars are provided, but the instructions only call for stars without outlines. Is it likely that different styles were used for upper and lower surfaces on the same plane?

2. Of the 13 markings options for 2nd production series planes (with the small, half-round windows behind the cockpit), only 5 are shown with radio masts. Were they really so seldom found on machines in 1942?

Pip

Hi Pip,
I have had a look to photos in my archive, and the most part of early Yak-1s is really without mast and black outlines. If you post a scan of the sheet, we can try to find the relative photos.
Regards
Massimo

I think I wrote something like this few days ago  ???  ::):

Stars with black outlines were standard from May 1940 to June 1941.  Black outline was supposed to disappear from stars in summer 1941.
Yak-1s camouflaged in black+green in factory didn't have black outlined stars.

HTH,
KL

So very sorry to make life difficult for you. It's just that the South Front kit seems to be fairly well researched. None of the profiles show black outlined stars for the upper fuselage; some of them appear to show black outlines for the stars under the wings, although none of the directions call for outlined stars anywhere. At the same time, outlined stars are provided in two sizes on the decal sheet. I was mainly trying to make sense of that somewhat confusing situation.

Pip

Eventually, there are more photos of Yak-7 with black outlines. This could depend on the factory, however it's safer not to use them if it's not demonstrated by a photo.
Regards
Massimo

The question was specific: Yak-1 only.  Yak-7 was obviously defferent.

Star with black border was an official form of VVS markings.  Black border wasn't an addition to impove contrast.  Two types of stars on one plane would be an exeption.
Enlarged stars were also required by one 1941 order.  Some orders were not specific, so different interpretations were common.
KL

Thanks, M and K. I'll go with no outlines above and below.

Pip

Hi Pip,
if you let us know the plane, we can look for photos to be sure.





Your statement was general, not relative to Yak-1 only.

Regards
Massimo

The stress is on supposed to.  In reality factories complied to a various degree to the instructions that were not clear.

- Factory in Saratov (Yak-1 producer) applied stars with no black borders
- Factory in Novosibirsk (Yak-7 producer) continued with black borders

HTH,
KL

machines of series 49 would have the early canopy type and radio aerial wires ,but no mast.
(Avdeev's early Yak-1 is like this)
I do not know exactly what series introduced the the plywood panel with two small windows.
one machine was tested from series 55 (3855) in November 41 that had skis, and this 'mid-production' canopy.
to give some context ski-equipped machines were only manufactured from November '41 to February 25 1942.
I do not have an exact date or series number for the radio mast and I would not be surprised if it was not fitted to all machines in any gives series.

it has been discovered to be standard practice at Zavod 292 (where Yak-1's were made) to only use plain red stars on the fuselage and under the wings.

Well, actually I've got a confession: I'm working on two Yak-1s. One is the South Front kit. The other is the Accurate Miniatures kit, but with the Alpha Flight conversion set that corrects the width of the cockpit opening and canopy. For one I'm leaning toward Baranov's Red 1, which from the kit profile had the orthodox camouflage scheme in normal colors (black at the nose). For the other one I'd like to do a plane that had the colors reversed, possibly Homyakova's White 42. Incidentally, neither of these planes is shown with radio mast (there are several good photos of Baranov's plane that confirm that). Would there still have been antenna wires, and if so, where would they have been attached to the fuselage?

Pip

Discovered?  Who made the discovery, when and how??  ???

Hi,
I have question about under surface color also for Baranov's Yak-1.

This is picture from AMD Decals sheet (still in plastic bag) showing Baranov's plane from 1942:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Yak-1/Baranov_1942_01_zpsc0c71059.jpg)

This was written here http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1536.msg11703#msg11703 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1536.msg11703#msg11703):



Number of victory stars shows that plane was not new but already existed some time in summer 1942.
What blue color should be used - AII Blue or AMT-7?

It this:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Yak-1/Baranov_1942_02_zps1427657c.jpg)
the same plane as from the decal sheet?

    66misos

Great photo, Misos! That certainly looks like the same plane as on the decal sheet, and it doesn't appear to have any antenna wires.

I've just ordered a copy of the AML sheet. It'll be interesting to see how they interpret the starboard inscription. South Front has it in red except for the last letter (white) that's on top of the star. There are two photos at this site:

http://www.rkka.es/Otros_articulos/30_Mijail_Baranov/001_Mijail_Baranov.htm

The first of them make it appear that South Front got it right. The second is more ambiguous to my eye.

Pip

I have the very same question. Do you suppose anybody has an answer?

Pip

Orlov writes exactly what Massimo says!    AII light blue and AMT-7 were used in parallel for some time.  Technical requirements for AMT-4 and AMT-6 appeared in the begining of July 1941.  Technical requirements for AMT-7 appeared 1-2 months later in August.

AII light blue was found on several wrecks (Vesivehmaa LaGG-3 for example), so period of parallel use was quite longer than summer 1941.
HTH,
KL

Hi KL,
Thanks for reply.
However, your recommendation for Baranov's Yak-1 would be AII Blue or AMT-7 for summer 1942?
     66misos

Well, Misos, the silence is deafening. My guess is there's no conclusive answer to the question, so it's just you and I on our own with this decision. Which way are you leaning? Given the number of victories Baronov had already achieved by mid-1942, the plane probably dates from early in the year, if not late 1941. Perhaps AII Blue makes more sense?

The same may also be true of Homyakova's White 42, but I'll probably go with AMT-7 for that one just to show the different schemes possible.

Pip

Hi Pip. hi all,


It could also be that they reported on this plane some marks of victories obtained from a previous one.

I have found a photo of a supposedly similar plane
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/1941-43/yak1-reversed-42.jpg)
Here we see the lightened reflex of the gear door on the wing undersurface. This suggests the use of a gossy light blue, and is in favour of the AII one.
By the way, this one has the reversed camouflage, pity that the bort number is not readable.

Regards
Massimo

Hi all,


I think it's Pavlov's white 15.
There's a second picture of the same here:
http://airfield.narod.ru/yak/yak-1/yak-1_color.html

Jean

Thank you Jean, it's surely the same plane.
Regards
Massimo

Hi,
originally I inclined to AII Blue - at least it would look nice and it would be another example of VVS camouflage.
BUT then I browsed different Russian pages (mainly http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/baran_md.htm (http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/baran_md.htm)) to get background of Baranov and his plane.
Here is overview of the key info:
- from the beginning of the war M.D. Baranov was a fighter pilot of 183rd iap,
- 183rd iap was formmed in August 1941 and armed with MiG-3 planes,
- 24-Dec-1942 Baranov bailed out on parachute from burning plane (most probably MiG-3) after the dogfight,
- 18-Mar-1942 - 183rd iap reformed and rearmed with Yak-1 planes,
- Jun 1942 - Baranov has already 20 air victories plus 6 on the ground,
- 13-Jul-1942 - 183rd iap started fighting on Stalingrad front as part of 265 iad and from the end of the month as part of 169 iad,
- 6-Aug-1942 - Baranov shot down 3 planes plus fourth plane hit by taran and again bailed out on parachute from damaged plane (most probably Yak-1),
- 12-Aug-1942 - Baranov awarded by Hero Of the Soviet Union,
- 13-Aug-1942 - article in "Pravda" newspaper about Baranov and his 24-stars plane.

So, original Baranov's plane (not necessarily "personal", but may be preferred) with max. 20 victory stars (if any painted on it) was destroyed on 6-Aug-1942 during his the most famous fight. He is awarded HSU and journalists from Pravda etc. came to 183rd iap to make photos for article.
IMHO, some existing plane from 183rd iap is taken and 24 victory stars and slogans are painted on it for photosession purpose - see following photos:

(http://www.rkka.es/Otros_articulos/30_Mijail_Baranov/01_Mijail-Baranov.jpg),
partially glossy (=polished?) Matt AMT-4 fuselage around freshly painted decorations,

(http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/baran8.jpg)
- red star is partially repainted/corrected,
- partially missing black paint on the propeller blades,

(http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/baran15.jpg)
- scratches and spots on fuselage,
- chafed color on the wing root,

(http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/baran4.jpg)
- wing look quite weathered and scratched,

(http://www.rkka.es/Otros_articulos/30_Mijail_Baranov/03_Mijail-Baranov.jpg)
- Under wings (blue) color is not so bright here,
- note glossy (polished) AMT4 and AMT-6 on the front fuselage.

No antenna mast and no antena wire visible on the photos.

from Massimo's http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/1941-43/1941-43.html (http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/1941-43/1941-43.html):
While AMT-4 and 6 were codified in July 1941, AMT-7 was codified in August 1941, and is not mentioned on earlier manuals; earlier AII light blue remained in use in parallel with the darker AMT-7 in the first years of war.

Although the Baranov's Yak-1 plane used during the photosession seems not to be the new, most probably it was not made long before 18-Mar-1942 (date when 183rd iap was armed with Yaks). When considered "turnaround" or life span of the planes that time I would guess (having no other exact info) that "photosession plane" was built sometimes between March and August 1942, e.g. some 7 -12 months (average cca 10 months) after the blue AMT-7 was codified.

If I take that average 10 months, it points at cca June 1942 as production date of the "photosession plane".
It gives some time to plane to get some scratches, dirty/dust and may by some weathering. And within info and thoughts above IMHO the new AMT-7 is a bit more probable than AII Blue from the old stocks.

     66misos

Wow, good and helpful information, Misos. Thanks for posting it.
Pip

Good research, Misos.
It's a bit sad to think that the most part of the famous and colorful planes of the aces were not as they used to fly them, but painted for some photo session.
Regards
Massimo

Jean

thanks for the Yak links, not seen that before!!   What a great resource.  For anyone else, there are many pages of profiles of various Yaks, and underneath are links to known photos. Great.  very easy to get distracted by this!

cheers
T

I finally finished joining the South Front fuselage today. It actually came together better than I expected given other reports, but the width of the fuselage doesn't match the width of the wing fairings -- it's too wide. Has anybody else come up against this? If so, do you have any suggestions? I'm a little worried about the force it's going to require to get everything to line up.

Pip

Hi Pip,
I've never built that model, but I suppose that forcing could cause some distortion, maybe on the dihedral. It's better to file the wing fairings.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo. Filing the fairings isn't really an option: the kit is engineered with the fairings as part of the wings, not the fuselage. The curved tops of the fairings are supposed to meet the corresponding bottoms of the fuselage sides. The dihedral (and hence the distance between the fairing tops) is rigid because there's an internal wing spar. Thus, the only thing that can give is the fuselage sides. I was able to use a spring clamp to press the sides together while one side set up in the proper position. I'll do the other side tomorrow. I think it's going to work out.

I've got both the South Front and the Accurate Miniatures/Alpha Flight Yak-1s just about ready to paint, and I've encountered a question: The Alpha Flight vacuformed rear canopy piece has a frame at the forward edge of the two small quarter panels. The South Front piece doesn't (rather like the two small clear panels on a P-40). Drawings and photos are ambiguous. Does anybody know which is correct? I'm going to have to leave the vacuformed piece as is either way, but the South Front piece will be an easy fix -- or non-fix -- depending.

Pip

http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1060.0

http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_16167_start_60.html

OK, so you Dark Green Man made a discovery in May 2011.  May we know how did you discovered this?
Or, was it M. Golovanov who in January 2011 posted that black outlines hadn't ever been applied in Saratov factory?

Mind you that in 2008 Aviakollektsiya, Orlov explained that "plain" Red Star was standard from June 1941 to Sept 1943.  IMHO, only this qualifies as a discovery.

Regards,
KL

It's great to "see" your voice here again, Konstantin!

Is it possible that the standard "plain" Red Star also included the one with thin black outline? It certainly appears that many Yak-7s, produced between 1941 and 1943, had such stars. Or was that an aberration confined to the Novosibirsk factory?

Best,
Pip

Yes, it was typical for (confined to) Novosibirsk Zavod 153.
Abberation, exeption, non-standard, call it however you want.
Again, black outline on Zavod 153 Yaks was mentioned by Orlov in 2008 - so, it's a known, published fact.

Thanks for the reply. Now, another question if I may. The South Front Yak-1 instructions call for the wheel hubs to be painted A-14 Steel Grey. (The Accurate Miniatures instructions call for the outward-facing hubs to be the interior color and the inward-facing hubs to be black.) Is this correct, or should the hubs be green like other types?

Thanks again,
Pip

Here are a couple of bench shots of the South Front kit painted and decaled. I used the kit decals (produced by Begemot). They look iffy on the paper, but behaved very well. Markings are for Valeriya Homyakova, 586 IAP. Upper colors are 4BO and AMT-6 from the Akan acrylic lacquer 1941-43 set, colors reversed from standard scheme. Lower color is my version of AII Blue. I loved airbrushing with the new Akan paints, which were not tinted.

(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj243/pnmoss/South%20Front%20Yak-1/Left_zpsff2d18b4.jpg)
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj243/pnmoss/South%20Front%20Yak-1/Right_zps136b52ac.jpg)

Pip

Hubs were probably green.  ??? I could be wrong there...  :-X

Neither of the two original early Yaks preserved in Russian museums, Yak-1 in Saratov Regional Museum and early Yak-9 preserved in OKB Yakovlev Museum has gray wheels:

(http://walkarounds.airforce.ru/avia/rus/yak/yak-1b/mg_yak-1b_48.jpg)

(http://walkarounds.airforce.ru/avia/rus/yak/yak-9/ds_yak-9_14.jpg)

Both planes were repainted many times, shade of green is probably diffferent than original...

Pip, your Yak-1 looks quite nice!  The AKAN colours look good to me; that AMT-7 is definitely blue, not greyish-blue as I mentioned in Jon's thread on his Yak-7V.

Regards,

Jason

Thanks, Konstantin, that's good enough for me. I'll go with green hubs and dare anybody to prove me wrong.
Cheers,
Pip