Sovietwarplanes

As I'm nearly to the point of applying topside paint to my Yak-1s, I decided to take a closer look at the three Akan mid-war greens I presently possess. The new acrylic lacquer set 46305 provides two: 4BO and AMT-4. The third is Akan's aqueous acrylic AMT-4. In the following sample photo, the left chip is the acrylic lacquer 4BO, the middle chip is the acrylic lacquer AMT-4, and the right chip is the aqueous acrylic AMT-4:

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Miscellaneous/i-kwFHH8s/0/44e525cb/L/Akan%20Greens-L.jpg)

As you can see, they're all different. The acrylic lacquer AMT-4 is significantly lighter and greener than the aqueous acrylic version. The 4BO is much more olive. Of the three samples, it's closest in character to FS 34151, but darker, actually a nearly dead match for 24098.

The acrylic lacquer AMT-4 is closer in character to 34102, but somewhat darker -- fairly close to 35095.

The aqueous acrylic AMT-4 is close to 34082, but still darker.

All the paints have a semigloss surface. The acrylic lacquers spray much more easily than the aqueous acrylic, which was reluctant to adhere to the sheet plastic, especially around the edges due to surface tension.

In a post to another thread, KL stated, "4BO was developed in 1937-38. AMT-4 nitro paint and A-24 oil paint were developed in 1941 as 4BO equivalents.  AMT-4 and A-24 were used on planes, 4BO was used on tanks, artillery, etc." Based on that statement, I should have thought that 4BO and AMT-4 would be more similar, and that AMT-4 would be closer to Akan's version of 4BO. Actually, the acrylic lacquer AMT-4 seems more like AII Green. Can anybody offer any clarification on this?

Pip

Hi Pip

This is not a clarification really, but I have seen similar variations among my collection of Akan paints. I don't have the acrylic lacquer, although I am very interested in obtaining some. However, I do have many of the WWII colours in both Akan's aqueous acrylic series and their enamel range. I have not sprayed AMT-4 yet, but in the case of AMT-7 / 11 / 12 I made paint chips using both the acrylic and enamel versions. Although the hues are very similar, the colours in the two ranges of paints were not identical. In my case, the enamels were all noticeably lighter than the acrylic equivalents. I have heard others also mention this variation in Akan colours. I will try to photograph my chips in natural light on the weekend - unfortunately I get home when it is dark in the week and I don't think chips photographed in artificial light will be very useful.

In your case, however, the AMT-4 versions in the acrylic lacquer and aqueous acrylic range really are very different, not just in how dark they appear. This seems even more than the differences I observed between the acrylics and enamels, which was definitely more subtle. I would be less concerned about the difference between the AMT-4's and 4BO, since they are not really exactly the same colour as far as I know. The difference between the two AMT-4's are stark, though, and as you said the acrylic lacquer one almost looks like an AII green. I wonder if there is any chance of a mislabeled bottle? Alternatively, it is possible that Akan updated their research and/or quality checking between doing the aqueous acrylic and new acrylic lacquer range.

Bennie

Hi Bennie.
Thanks for the response. I shouldn't worry too much about photographing the colors in artificial light. I don't think the chips are useful as absolute color samples anyway, only as comparative indicators.

I note that of two Akan sets I own, the aqueous acrylic (47314) was made in Finland, while the acrylic lacquer (46305) was made in Belgium by DuPont. That could certainly explain some of the differences between the different versions of the same colors.

I still wish KL or somebody would clarify the relationship between 4BO and AMT-4.

Pip

Based on a PM conversion with KL, 4BO and AMT-4 should be very similar, if not identical. I'm going to use Akan's 4BO rather than the greener AMT-4 because it captures the olive quality much better.

Pip

Hi Pip

Sorry that I haven't photographed those chips yet, but I've been a little snowed over with work, pulling some all-nighters in the process. However, just out of my own curiosity I'll also make an Akan enamel AMT-4 chip, and take some photographs of all the chips together this weekend for a complete "set".
I don't have the 4BO unfortunately. It will probably not help you much, except to demonstrate that there is variation within the Akan paints.

I did have a look again last night and noticed that the differences are not all that bad - for example, my Enamel AMT-7 is very noticeably lighter than the acrylic version, but my enamel and acrylic AMT-11's are pretty much identical (the enamel one is only very slightly lighter). My AMT-11 chips both look darker than what I've seen on the internet, but it is very difficult to judge photographs on a monitor. I once sent some chips to Mario who also post here occasionally, and he said they were identical to what he had, so maybe what one sees on a monitor is even more deceiving than what one realizes. I always knew not to trust digital samples, but it still amazes me just how deceiving it can be.

Anyway, the variations within the Akan brand is a little surprising, although I must admit I have seen variations between Humbrol tins bought at different times that were also very noticeable. I guess even with today's technology consistent colour control during paint manufacture is still not that easy to achieve.

By the way, I have had similar difficulties in choosing British WWII colours. You will be amazed how different the interpretations from different companies are. For example, Dark Earth from WEM, Humbrol and Gunze are all very different colours. I am starting to think that I simply worry too much about getting these things perfect. Once you start weathering, filtering and shading you mess them up anyway...

On a slightly different but related topic - how is your experience so far with the Akan acrylic lacquer range? I heard some people say that they suspect it is very similar to Mr Color lacquer paints? I need some early war Akan paints (AII green, blue, etc) and was considering whether I should try and obtain those colours from the new acrylic lacquer range.

I tend to agree. I probably am coming across as obsessive, but really I'm just trying to get a color rendition in which I'm confident; once there I can live with small variations.
 

I actually just posted yesterday to the Question on Akan Paints thread just below this one. I used the acrylic lacquer AMT-7 on the bottom of a Yak-1 and thought it was really excellent. Don't know how it compares to the enamel since I can't obtain it here in the US, but I think it sprays quite a bit better than the aqueous acrylic.

Pip

Pip, you probably thought I forgot about this discussion. I now posted my paint chips in the discussion here:
http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1567.15

I don't think Massimo would like it if I double-posted everything here, but as a quick reference, here is a photograph of the colour chips:
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff39/babroughton/Mixed/paintchips_painted.jpg)

Kind regards,
Bennie

Hi Bennie.
Yes, I saw your two sets of chips (very nicely done!) at the other thread. Thanks for posting!

As I've posted at a couple of other threads, I went ahead and used the Akan (acrylic lacquer) 4BO on one of the Yaks and AMT-4 on the other. Not sure which is the closest to "reality," but I think both colors look pretty good.

Pip

Hi Pip and Bennie,
photos of Yaks show usually a strong contrast with the black.
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/1941-43/yak-1c.jpg)
I suppose that they utilized AMT-4 in one layer, that didn't cover completely the  yellowish base color of the primer and putty, so the effect should be similar to the 4BO.
Regards
Massimo

Massimo, are you saying that the AMT-4 on the Yak's was more olive than on other aeroplanes because of the underlying yellow primer/putty?

Regards,

Jason

Hi Jason,
it's the most likely idea to explain this. Usually AMT paints were given in two layers, but they passed to one during 1942/43 to spare paint, green paint in particular. I would say that it could have appeared  more yellowish and lighter.
Regards
Massimo

I've gotten the Accurate Miniatures Yak-1 far enough along to be able to post this picture so you can compare the two greens in the AKAN acrylic lacquer 1941-43 package. The model on the left has their 4BO; the model on the right has their AMT-4:

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Miscellaneous/i-8gXTWHh/0/a738511e/L/Yak%20Comparison-L.jpg)

As you can see, while there's not a lot of difference contrast-wise, the AMT-4 is distinctly greener. I think both are plausible renditions of the 1942 color, but I think I'll probably go with the AMT-4 when I get around to the La-5. What do you all think?

Cheers,
Pip

Well, I like the AMT-4 as it's closer to what I'm using right now - Testors Model Master Interior Green.

Regards,

Jason

I like both the shades. I wonder if Akanihin has lightened them after having heard the feedbacks of the modellers, or there is some technical reason for this difference.
Regards
Massimo

I also like both shades, Massimo. I obviously don't know why they were manufactured lighter than the aqueous acrylics (besides that they're being produced in a different country by a different company), but I find no need to lighten them out of the bottle.

I'm looking forward to sampling the new versions of AMT-11 and -12, which should happen later this year. I will say that, as others have probably pointed out, one gets a much more accurate impression of the paint on a model than on a little plastic square.

Cheers,
Pip

Hi,
I wonder how big is that difference. It was written in Sukhov's P-39 thread that at least at plastic kit painted by modeller paints all three colors 4BO, AMT-4 and A-24m should look the same. For that P-39 repainting I would preffer color of AMT-4  rather than 4BO. At least based on these photos  ???

    66misos

Hi Misos. The difference of the two Akan colors was what led me to start the thread in the first place since I had been informed by KL that 4BO and AMT-4 were virtually identical.

Cheers,
Pip

Hi,
under influence of discoussions above I airbushed my SF Yak-1 with AKAN water acrylics 4BO. I was pleased with the result so I compared it to AKAN water acrylics AMT-4:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Yak-1/20130512_180320_zpsc6a06e1f.jpg)
- both paints are almost 2 years old, so no latest/actual editions,
- both paints were thinned with Tamiya thinner for acrylics paint,
- both paints were airbrushed thick enough to fully cover underlying surface colors - I want to get their real appearance without influence of the undelying colors. That is why I do not use preshading,
- photo was taken in interior with indirect sun light without any lamp/flash.

As you can see they look almost identical. In reality it seems that 4BO is a very little bit brighter than AMT-4, may be it is only optical illusion, it is not evident on this photo.
Interestingly no such difference between greens as in the AKAN acrylic lacquer 1941-43 package - 4BO and AMT-4 as seen in Seawinder's post on April 30, 2013, 05:37:40 PM.

     66misos

Hi Misos. Thanks for posting that. The two colors do indeed look virtually identical -- nothing like the difference between the acrylic lacquer colors. Also, although it could be because of photographic differences, they appear a bit less green (more olive-yellow), perhaps somewhere in between the acrylic lacquer AMT-4 and 4BO.

Cheers,
Pip

Hi Pip,
yes, those colors look slightly different in reality. And differently on smartphone, notebook or big monitor. But not so different as those lacuers AMT-4 and 4BO. I do not understand. ???
But my intention was to show how similiar are those color in "my" case regardless absolute color. I will spray them both side by side to beter see similarity or difference.

    66misos

Hi,
as promissed I made another test chip - AKAN 4BO airbrushed directly side-by-side to AKAN AMT-4:

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Colors/130516_4BOvsAMT-4vsAII-Z_zps74276cfa.jpg)
Pic#1 - sun light on the table but chip in the shadow,
Pic#2 - colors in the direct sun light,
Pic#3 - no direct sun light in the room.

All 3 pictures were made in time frame 15 minutes with the same camera (but with auto setup) without interior lamp. Only difference was in the presence of the direct sun light and it was enough to get significantly different results.
It is apparent now that acrylics AKAN 4BO is brighter than acrylics AKAN AMT-4 in all 3 cases. Previous photo with 4BO on plane wing did not show it.

     66misos

Hi Misos.
Thanks again for taking the time to do the photos. The difference between the aqueous acrylic AMT-4 and 4BO, while obviously there, is seemingly more a matter of darkness-lightness, while the difference between the acrylic lacquer versions is of hue as well. I think, perhaps, the two versions of 4BO aren't that far apart, but the acrylic lacquer version of AMT-4 is greener than the aqueous acrylic version. None of which is going to keep me from using the acrylic lacquer AMT-4 on my La-5 (whenever that gets started).

Cheers,
Pip

Hi ,
I copare either my acqus akan green , to represent AIIZ color...
the akan AII green seems very dark tome, an d perhaps I will choose the AMT-4 one .
Anyway they are all in the same shade, and I imagine that like all other paint, AIIZ faded as time past...

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2014/08/31//14083109470514768312491399.jpg)

Xan

Hi Xan, I think that the dark shade is good for a prewar I-16 with Russian colors.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Xan,
pre-war I-16 look quite dark, although it is tricky to make decisions according to the bw photos. Aii-Z was really darker, compare also Mig-3 and La(GG0 wing fragments (Aii-Z vs. AMT-4) in Finland museum, photos also at mig3 pages.
IMHO, Akan Aii-Z would be better choice.
Regards,
   66misos

Hi Massimo, pre war green yes , but wich one?
There have been two...

before 1937 there was a green who was according to Konstantin very dark , like the RLM 83.
It's the color I used for the I-15 I did , and for the I-16 I'm doing...

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2014/06/02//14060208574314768312286103.jpg)

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2014/08/29//14082905554014768312485544.jpg)

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2014/08/29//14082906232214768312485569.jpg)

according to Orlov and Vakhlamov article in mister hobby wroten in 2006, ther was a new circular (?) in febrery of 1937 (No.133580c ) signed by  general Alexandrov about "general paints for aircraft" destinated to all VVS plane factory.

in this circular, they speak about green and aluminium colors.

so it is a new green, the AIIz and I imagine the A-19f for metal parts...

the changement were not apply at once, but more in 1938....

the AII green didn't change until 1941.

in 2013 turists found a I-16 near what was the north front:

this metal part has to be A-19f (the piece is wet, but we can see ? dry part)
but perhpas it is AMT-4 ???

(http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/929508139471435191.jpg)

that's why I imagine the AII green more olive green and lighter  akan did...

I did this I-15bis with AMT-4 akan, and I'm quite satisfied with the result

(http://www.legang.fr/maquettes/I-15bisxan/petites%20images/8.jpg)

I'm doing another Chinese I-16 type 10, and I wanted to show the diference between the two green, but My choise is not done,
and may be misos and Massimo you are right...

I have to do more tests

Xan

Hi Xan,
green paints often become brighter with the ageing because the green chromium oxyde pigment is more stable than other ones in the mix.
Of course, it can be that AII green becomes lighter, but probably it lost its glossy finish with ageing, and the same with the colors of the markings.
Regards
Massimo

I finaly choose the AIIz akan ( An old fidelity story with akanine ;-) )

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2014/09/02//14090207130314768312495524.jpg)

compare with akn AMT-4:

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2014/09/02//14090207075214768312495515.jpg)

and green before 1937:

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2014/09/02//14090207075414768312495518.jpg)

the two I-16:
(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2014/09/02//14090207075014768312495514.jpg)
the type 5 won't stay flat...
Iit is only the first paint I have now to weathered it...
(I still find it dark...)
Xan

That is dark, but great work as always, Xan! Tres bien!

Regards,

Jason

thank you my lord, but the real work start now...
Xan

I also used the AKAN AIIz, in my case the enamel version. My photography is not in natural light, and I do think it looks a bit different in reality, but this is what I get prior to any clear coats, etc:

(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff39/babroughton/Eduard%20I-16/DSC_5958.jpg~original)

And the final model. I used a gloss prior to the decals, and I think the satin that I used to restore the original sheen should have been more matt. The flash does make it look shinier than it really is though. Also, in the picture below, it definitely looks darker than it does in natural light. I'll try to photograph it outside sometime for a more accurate representation:
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff39/babroughton/Eduard%20I-16/DSC_5983.jpg~original)

It does look dark in reality (not so dark as in the pictures), but I actually like it. Of course, if you believe EP's interpretation of this colour, you would consider it completely wrong, but the few German colour photographs of this colour do appear pretty dark, as well as on many black-and-white photographs.

Nice Ishak, BA!

Regards,

Jason

Thanks, it is the Eduard Weekend kit, and except for some homemade seatbelts and a bit of detailing around the engine, it was pretty much built out of the box. Easy kit to build and quite satisfying result. I might build one of the Profipack versions in future - I really enjoyed it.

Although I did do some basic research, I didn't put in a huge amount of effort in getting it 100% accurate in all respects, so please excuse any shortcomings or inaccuracies. It was more of a cheap and quick way to try out the AIIz and AIIg on an actual model, and as I said I like how they look.

Here is a picture of the AIIg (enamel) before any clear coat. I did shade it a bit with a slightly lightened version of AIIg (about +20% white), so the darker areas are more representative of what you get out of the bottle. I think the AIIg is pretty much what one would expect:
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff39/babroughton/Eduard%20I-16/DSC_5960.jpg~original)

And another angle, again with the flash making it look too shiny and perhaps a bit too dark also:
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff39/babroughton/Eduard%20I-16/DSC_5984.jpg~original)

Bennie

Hi,
Both builds are very nice. I like that dark appearance of Allz, for me very convincing.
Regards,
   66misos