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Print Page - AMT-1 in Akan's new acrylic lacquer line

Sovietwarplanes

Modeling Soviet Warplanes => Colors, schemes, & research => Topic started by: Seawinder on May 06, 2013, 06:04:30 PM



Title: AMT-1 in Akan's new acrylic lacquer line
Post by: Seawinder on May 06, 2013, 06:04:30 PM
There are photos of a completed Tamiya Il-2 in the Plastic Pics section of HyperScale:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/47751/message/1367774138/Tamiya%27s+new+IL-2M+type+3+done...

The builder used the new Akan acrylic lacquers (which I've been using with quite a bit of enthusiasm). To my eye the AMT-1 looks quite different -- more like tan -- from the renditions in their other paint lines. I'd be interested in what others think.

Cheers,
Pip


Title: Re: AMT-1 in Akan's new acrylic lacquer line
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 06, 2013, 11:19:01 PM
Hi Pip,
it looks more tan than the one we've discussed on Britmodeller, but is it an impression of these photos or it was told after having seen the real color?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: AMT-1 in Akan's new acrylic lacquer line
Post by: Seawinder on May 06, 2013, 11:54:52 PM
Hi Pip,
it looks more tan than the one we've discussed on Britmodeller, but is it an impression of these photos or it was told after having seen the real color?
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo. Not quite sure how to answer that. I guess I'm basing my comments on my impressions of the photos. On my monitor at least, the AMT-4 looks pretty similar to what I've been using on my Yak-1, so it seems like a decent bet that the AMT-1 as photographed is pretty close to what came out of the bottle. Bottom line, for me the colors in the new acrylic lacquer line are much more satisfactory than the aqueous acrylics. Can't speak to the enamels since I've never had them in my hands.

Cheers,
Pip


Title: Re: AMT-1 in Akan's new acrylic lacquer line
Post by: learstang on May 07, 2013, 05:07:49 AM
Strange.  Now those colours look like what I painted my first arrow in, and I had become convinced that my colours were too light!  I wonder if this modeller painted straight from the bottle, or lightened them?  That AMT-1 looks a lot like the Testors Model Master Afrika Dunkelgrau '42 flat enamel that I've been using for AMT-1 on the arrow I'm currently working on.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: AMT-1 in Akan's new acrylic lacquer line
Post by: Seawinder on May 07, 2013, 05:41:47 AM
Strange.  Now those colours look like what I painted my first arrow in, and I had become convinced that my colours were too light!  I wonder if this modeller painted straight from the bottle, or lightened them?  That AMT-1 looks a lot like the Testors Model Master Afrika Dunkelgrau '42 flat enamel that I've been using for AMT-1 on the arrow I'm currently working on.

Regards,

Jason

I'll ask him.

Pip


Title: Re: AMT-1 in Akan's new acrylic lacquer line
Post by: Tyronesdaddy on May 07, 2013, 04:48:23 PM
All three topside colours appear significantly lighter than their aqueous counterparts I have used.


Title: Re: AMT-1 in Akan's new acrylic lacquer line
Post by: Seawinder on May 07, 2013, 05:03:12 PM
All three topside colours appear significantly lighter than their aqueous counterparts I have used.

That has been my experience too with the AMT-4 (the appearance of which I like better than the aqueous acrylic). OTOH, the AMT-7 is just about the same in both paint lines.

Cheers,
Pip


Title: Re: AMT-1 in Akan's new acrylic lacquer line
Post by: Seawinder on May 07, 2013, 05:09:23 PM
Here's the response of the builder to my query at the HyperScale thread:

"I didn't lighten the top surface colors though the weathering process may have to some extent. I did play with the undersurface in that I used WEM's French Sky Blue rather than the Akan AMT-7.

"I will say that for some reason the AMT-1 does look more tan in the pics than it actually is on the model. I think this may just be due to my lighting or white balance setting rather than anything else. The actual AMT-1 has a more cool tone when sprayed straight from the bottle."

So perhaps the new line AMT-1 isn't so different from that of the old line. I guess somebody'll just have to buy a bottle and see for himself. One nice thing is that Linden Hill is now selling at least some of the acrylic lacquers (including AMT-1) individually.

Pip


Title: Re: AMT-1 in Akan's new acrylic lacquer line
Post by: learstang on May 07, 2013, 05:56:27 PM
Thank you for the information, Pip!  I see where AKAN now have the three-colour camouflage set (actually it also includes AMT-7 and I believe A-14) just for the Il-2 - I really need to buy that in the acrylic lacquer.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: AMT-1 in Akan's new acrylic lacquer line
Post by: Seawinder on May 07, 2013, 06:29:08 PM
Pip you get me sick!

I bought this paint two month ago un Obchod valka (cz)
so there is and old one and a new one?
I thought the Akan AMT-1 was much more greyish than the pic shows!

anyway I have to use the one I have on my U-2 this afternoon  and I will show you the result..

see you soon!
Xan
Hi Xan.
If you mean I make you sick, I'm very sorry!  :(

The "new" ones are a line of acrylic lacquers that Akan introduced earlier this year. They behave very similarly to the Mr. Color paints. I can't tell from the picture of your bottle whether it's enamel or aqueous acrylic, but the new line is different from both of those. The picture of your plane makes me think you've got the aqueous acrylics, which are apparently consistently darker than both the enamel and acrylic lacquer paints. I'll look forward to more pictures of the U-2. I'll be posting pictures of my Yak-1 (done with the new colors) in a day or two as well.

Cheers,
Pip


Title: Re: AMT-1 in Akan's new acrylic lacquer line
Post by: xan on May 07, 2013, 10:42:14 PM
I pip and the others,
I removed my post because I didn't understand that you were talking about a new type of paint.
Indeed, I use acqueous acrilyc.

I started painting the AMT-1 of my U-2 but I will hav to stop it...

How can be the difference so big?

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v35/B717driver/DSC06367_zps0a7fb101.jpg)

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7075/6915667774_17d7bc544c_b.jpg)

and first, wich one is the real one?
I though akan paint (I mean the old one, were based in Orlov and Vaklamov, even done in colaboration with them)
who work with Akan for the new line?
Does Akanine say He was wrong with the acqueous acrilyc to change so much his coulours ?
Does someone see anything in scalemodels .ru ?
well meanwhile, I'm afraid I will have to let my U-2 in stand by...

how, I see know that in your post there are some answer:

"I will say that for some reason the AMT-1 does look more tan in the pics than it actually is on the model. I think this may just be due to my lighting or white balance setting rather than anything else. The actual AMT-1 has a more cool tone when sprayed straight from the bottle."
So perhaps the new line AMT-1 isn't so different from that of the old line. I guess somebody'll just have to buy a bottle and see for himself. One nice thing is that Linden Hill is now selling at least some of the acrylic lacquers (including AMT-1) individually.





Title: Re: AMT-1 in Akan's new acrylic lacquer line
Post by: KL on May 07, 2013, 11:36:02 PM
How can be the difference so big?

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v35/B717driver/DSC06367_zps0a7fb101.jpg)

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7075/6915667774_17d7bc544c_b.jpg)

and first, wich one is the real one?

Olive green and light brown on your first photo look very good - like real AMT-4 and AMT-1  ;D
AMT-4 should look like chlorophille and AMT-1 should look like sand.

Dark gray on your first photo does NOT look like real AMT-12 -it's way too light!!!  No contrast, so the whole plane looks washed out...

Second photo is very problematic: green and light brown are too brownish-greenish  ???  Only dark gray on wing looks convincing.

HTH,
KL


Title: Re: AMT-1 in Akan's new acrylic lacquer line
Post by: xan on May 08, 2013, 12:05:29 AM
Hi mister K I was waiting for your point of view...
wel what you say is quite problematic because the photo below is made wuth "clasical" Akan who were considered as the most accurate...

I started to paint AMT-1 with the "old" AMT-1 wich is very greyish too

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2013/05/07//13050711410814768311164782.jpg)

Massimo use a greyish AMT-1 too in is profiles:

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/pavlov/il2m3-bp-fl-am-3view-pavlov.jpg)

Do we have any colour pic of AMT-1 real paint ? a plane with original colour or colours pics?

Xan


Title: Re: AMT-1 in Akan's new acrylic lacquer line
Post by: KL on May 08, 2013, 12:17:45 AM
No real planes, no wrecks, no colour photos; only photos from "Albom Nakrasok".  FYI, AMT-1 chip in Albom is very grayish.  :)  So, you are safe with your "old" AKAN paint.

Real problem is when AMT-1 turns greenish...

Saludos,
KL


Title: Re: AMT-1 in Akan's new acrylic lacquer line
Post by: xan on May 08, 2013, 12:37:34 AM
All right, if the only AMT-1 we have is the Albom Nakrasok,  where the AMT-1 is very grey indeed

(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e136/Apex1701/80603862.jpg)

why do you say it had to be sand color ? (and you are not the only one , most of profile show AMT-1 sand color?)



Xan


Title: Re: AMT-1 in Akan's new acrylic lacquer line
Post by: xan on May 08, 2013, 02:09:17 AM
Ilooked what I have in my documentation...

first, Marking and Soviet air force.
(http://padabum.com/pics/31382.jpg)
I don't understand well if writer are Kondratyev &Kotelnikov or Vakhlamov and Orlov/

on page 13:

Light brown dope AMT-1, developed back in 1941, was not called the Air Force until July 1943 when he, as well as on AMT 11 and AMT-12, entered the TOU. Color AMT-1 can be described as a light gray-brown. TU allowed ?minor changes color during storage?. AMT-1, as well as the other paints a series of AMT, provide semi-cover.
TU oil enamel A-21м (analog color AMT-1) introduced in September 1943 the color of the enamel is slightly different from the AMT-1, probably due to differences in the film. Oil varnish compared with nitrocellulose was yellow, so the color of A-21м was more yellow, warm. Another characteristic of oil enamel characteristic of A-21м a matte surface is dry film.

they give no references...

second Hornat:

(http://www.hobbykit-import.com/images/IL1001.jpg)

here's what he says about the AMT-1 color:

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2013/05/08//13050801563614768311165058.jpg) (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=13050801563614768311165058.jpg)

he gives two references in FS number:

20324

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2013/05/08//13050801563614768311165059.jpg) (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=13050801563614768311165059.jpg)

20372

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2013/05/08//13050801563614768311165060.jpg) (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=13050801563614768311165060.jpg)

third one in this book :

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2013/05/08//13050801563614768311165056.jpg) (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=13050801563614768311165056.jpg)

they propose FS 26306:
(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2013/05/08//13050801563614768311165057.jpg) (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=13050801563614768311165057.jpg)
surely refering in the albom Nakrasok

and finally this is the color of the AMT-1 in this albom Nakrasok

(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e136/Apex1701/80603862.jpg)


(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2013/05/08//13050802055114768311165063.jpg) (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=13050802055114768311165063.jpg)

in fine what have we?
If we trust in the only colour we have , it had to be very grayish, but according to the name (it's important) and the description Hornat talk about, it had to be sand or browner...

sorry if I deviate the sens of the topic

Xan


Title: Re: AMT-1 in Akan's new acrylic lacquer line
Post by: learstang on May 08, 2013, 05:24:18 AM
Xan, the first book you show was written by Mikhail Orlov, as unfortunately Mr. Vakhlamov had passed away by the time the book was written.  Using a combination of a computer translation, my limited Russian, and my general knowledge of Soviet colours and camouflage, I've been able to translate this into a form I can understand.  As you indicate, according to Mr. Orlov, AMT-1 Light Brown was a light grey-brown.  AMT-21m, the oil enamel equivalent to the nitrocellulose lacquer AMT-1 had a yellow oil varnish, making this version appear more tan.  I've also read (from Orlov or Hornat?), that later versions of AMT-1 were tanner than the earlier versions.  So right there you have three versions of this colour, "Light Brown"; you have the greyer earlier AMT-1 lacquer, the tanner later AMT-1, and AMT-21m, which is described by Mr. Orlov as being "more yellow, warm".  This may explain some of the differing interpretations of this colour.  To be honest, this seems to be the trickiest VVS colour to pin down, and it may be that those different interpretations, or at least some of them, are correct depending upon the time and which variant of Light Brown, lacquer or oil enamel, were used.  That's about the best sense I can make of it.  However, what I don't understand is the greenish tint of the original AKAN AMT-1.  I don't see this greenish tint mentioned in any of the literature.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: AMT-1 in Akan's new acrylic lacquer line
Post by: Seawinder on May 08, 2013, 05:29:44 AM
Xan, the first book you show was written by Mikhail Orlov, as unfortunately Mr. Vakhlamov had passed away by the time the book was written.  Using a combination of a computer translation, my limited Russian, and my general knowledge of Soviet colours and camouflage, I've been able to translate this into a form I can understand.  As you indicate, according to Mr. Orlov, AMT-1 Light Brown was a light grey-brown.  AMT-21m, the oil enamel equivalent to the nitrocellulose lacquer AMT-1 had a yellow oil varnish, making this version appear more tan.  I've also read (from Orlov or Hornat?), that later versions of AMT-1 were tanner than the earlier versions.  So right there you have three versions of this colour, "Light Brown"; you have the greyer earlier AMT-1 lacquer, the tanner later AMT-1, and AMT-21m, which is described by Mr. Orlov as being "more yellow, warm".  This may explain some of the differing interpretations of this colour.  To be honest, this seems to be the trickiest VVS colour to pin down, and it may be that those different interpretations, or at least some of them, are correct depending upon the time and which variant of Light Brown, lacquer or oil enamel, were used.  That's about the best sense I can make of it.

Regards,

Jason

Hi Jason.
FWIW I approve of your thought process on this.

Cheers,
Pip


Title: Re: AMT-1 in Akan's new acrylic lacquer line
Post by: Seawinder on May 08, 2013, 05:45:12 AM


Olive green and light brown on your first photo look very good - like real AMT-4 and AMT-1  ;D
AMT-4 should look like chlorophille and AMT-1 should look like sand.

Dark gray on your first photo does NOT look like real AMT-12 -it's way too light!!!  No contrast, so the whole plane looks washed out...

Second photo is very problematic: green and light brown are too brownish-greenish  ???  Only dark gray on wing looks convincing.

HTH,
KL

Hi Konstantin.
Just to clarify. The "first photo" is one of a set posted to Plastic Pics at HyperScale of a Tamiya Il-2 built by another modeler who used the new Akan acryic lacquers for all three upper surface colors. I assume the "second photo" is of one of Xan's builds, again presumably using the Akan aqueous acrylics. If I'm wrong about that, hopefully he can correct me.

I generally bow to your MUCH greater knowledge, but I wonder if one shouldn't allow a bit more leeway with the AMT-12, which others have stated was quite prone to fading?

Cheers,
Pip


Title: Re: AMT-1 in Akan's new acrylic lacquer line
Post by: learstang on May 08, 2013, 05:53:58 AM
Xan, the first book you show was written by Mikhail Orlov, as unfortunately Mr. Vakhlamov had passed away by the time the book was written.  Using a combination of a computer translation, my limited Russian, and my general knowledge of Soviet colours and camouflage, I've been able to translate this into a form I can understand.  As you indicate, according to Mr. Orlov, AMT-1 Light Brown was a light grey-brown.  AMT-21m, the oil enamel equivalent to the nitrocellulose lacquer AMT-1 had a yellow oil varnish, making this version appear more tan.  I've also read (from Orlov or Hornat?), that later versions of AMT-1 were tanner than the earlier versions.  So right there you have three versions of this colour, "Light Brown"; you have the greyer earlier AMT-1 lacquer, the tanner later AMT-1, and AMT-21m, which is described by Mr. Orlov as being "more yellow, warm".  This may explain some of the differing interpretations of this colour.  To be honest, this seems to be the trickiest VVS colour to pin down, and it may be that those different interpretations, or at least some of them, are correct depending upon the time and which variant of Light Brown, lacquer or oil enamel, were used.  That's about the best sense I can make of it.

Regards,

Jason

Hi Jason.
FWIW I approve of your thought process on this.

Cheers,
Pip

Thank you, Pip!  You'll notice I've amended my comments to include about the greenish tint of the AKAN AMT-1.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: AMT-1 in Akan's new acrylic lacquer line
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 08, 2013, 08:29:02 AM
Hi all,

Quote
they propose FS 26306:

surely refering in the albom Nakrasok

26306 was  proposed by V/O in an article published on M-Hobby 2/99, certainly on the base of the Alboom Nakrasok.
There is an asterisk close to the number, with a note in Russian that I can't read. Aside the number there are two other numbers, 1005-43 and 1008-43, a sort of code that I am not able to interpretate.
In the same table, fs 34201 and  36350 and Humbrol 84 are described as matches for A-21m.

I suppose that the FS chips given by Hornat are compromise matches influenced by the descriptions of coffee and milk etc, that are hardly compatible with the chip of Nakrasok alboom and the photos of the available wrecks  (all heavily weathered for what I know).

I have materially a FS-26306 chip in my hands and it looks a brownish grey without any green tinge, I wonder what is written close to the asterisk.
On my catalogue, 30324 is the matt version on the missing 20324 and is strongly tan, while 20372 looks a compromise shade.


About AMT-12:
it appears clearly darker than AMT-4 only in few photos of Il-2 of Zavod 1
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/il-2m3/rear-puzzle.jpg)
but in most photos of many types it appears undistinguishable, or even lighter than AMT-4.
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/il-2xcamo1r.jpg)


This one is particularly interesting.
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/il2band.jpg)
Note the contrast with the tail of the plane on the background. On this tail, the shape ot the black (?) blotch and its sharpness recalls the planes built in z.1 after 1943, it should be grey.
Possible conclusions?
-or Z.1 employed black instead of grey on the wings and tail of its Il-2 (something similar appears on photos of Tu-2 built in another factory, I don't remember which one)
-or AMT-12 fades quickly (for unknown reasons, less quickly on planes of z.1)
-or AMT-12 appears different for planes built in different plants due to thinning, thickness of the layer and so on.


Title: Re: AMT-1 in Akan's new acrylic lacquer line
Post by: xan on May 08, 2013, 10:50:43 AM
Hi every body ,

Pip, the second pics is a Tyronesdaddy's mount, it was just to comparate the two kind of colors...

well the FS 20 312 solution is tempting , because it's a compromise, not very far from the Nabrasok alboom and not very far from what we can see on many of three colors camos, and last but not list, it' prettyier  ;D

but just because it's a compromise it inevitably wrong...

Orlov and Vakhlamov are the ultimate reference for all uf us I presume...

Orlov propose that:

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2013/05/08//13050810461614768311165739.jpg) (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=13050810461614768311165739.jpg)

comparing to those references, Akan paint is not far, particulary from the first A-21m:

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2013/05/08//13050810551114768311165784.jpg) (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=13050810551114768311165784.jpg)

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2013/05/08//13050810485814768311165753.jpg) (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=13050810485814768311165753.jpg)
the first pic was taken yesterday night with lights, and the second one this morning...

finely I will use the AMT-1 akan as it comes. What do you think about?

Xan


Title: Re: AMT-1 in Akan's new acrylic lacquer line
Post by: bbrought on May 08, 2013, 11:14:22 AM
Hi Massimo:

26306 was  proposed by V/O in an article published on M-Hobby 2/99, certainly on the base of the Alboom Nakrasok.
There is an asterisk close to the number, with a note in Russian that I can't read.

and

Quote
I have materially a FS-26306 chip in my hands and it looks a brownish grey without any green tinge, I wonder what is written close to the asterisk.

I assume you are referring to the table on page 23 in the magazine. The asterisk points to note number 4, which reads:

"Очень приблизительное сходство (надо темнее)."

This means: Very approximate similarity (needs to be darker).

Hope that helps...

Bennie


Title: Re: AMT-1 in Akan's new acrylic lacquer line
Post by: xan on May 08, 2013, 11:23:05 AM
it does help!
Xan


Title: Re: AMT-1 in Akan's new acrylic lacquer line
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 08, 2013, 01:48:40 PM
Thank you Bennie.

Hi Xan, it's strange, from the dicussion on Britmodeller I made the idea that AMT-1 had to be greener than A-21.

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: AMT-1 in Akan's new acrylic lacquer line
Post by: 66misos on May 08, 2013, 05:11:16 PM
Hi Xan,

I think that using Akan AMT-1 as it comes is nothing bad.
Akan makes extraordinary effort to make paints as authentic as possible. But making paints in two different factories gives two different results (water acrylics vs. laquers), regardless modern technology and peacetime processes.
I do not know wheter original paints were produced only in one factory during war. Imagine that wartime stress, also in paint production, application etc. No wander there could be different colors of the one particular paint part no., changing a bit in time and territory.

    66misos


Title: Re: AMT-1 in Akan's new acrylic lacquer line
Post by: KL on May 08, 2013, 06:55:19 PM
It's usefull to see different sources and how different they are.  Interesting discussion too.
Few comments:

-  "Coffee with  milk" is a description used by Vahlamov years before the classical 1999 M-Hobby text which relayed on Albom Nakrasok
-  In period technical literature AMT-1 and A-21m were called "light brown" or "dirty sand" (I haven't seen "gray" in any official description
-  Although called "sand" colour was supposed to blend with the colour of dry dirt.  It definitively did not relate in any way to desert sand

Regarding Albom Nakrasok AMT-1 and A-21m chips:
-  Nothing in common with "coffee with milk"
-  Nothing in common with desert sand
-  AMT-1 and A-21m chips are very close (definitively closely related colours):  AMT-1 is slightly darker, A-21m is slightly yellower.

I don't have any AKAN paints and I am not planning to purchase any, so I can't say how close they are to Albom chips.  I would greatly appreciate if somebody provides me with AKAN paint chips. :)
 
HTH,
KL

PS. Xan, I have my own FS equivalents for Albom Nakrasok chips, send me a PM if you are interested.  


Title: Re: AMT-1 in Akan's new acrylic lacquer line
Post by: 66misos on May 09, 2013, 09:23:17 AM
Hi,

these are pictures from E.P. page http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Research/1948/1948_Albom_Nakrasok.html (http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Research/1948/1948_Albom_Nakrasok.html) about his observations of Albom Nakrasok. Original text accompanying pictures is in Italic font:

(http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Research/1948/pewing-alg1.jpg)
"A section of Pe-2 wing surface at Bodo, here showing an unusually well preserved area of ALG-1 primer..."

(http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Research/1948/alg1-old-pe2.jpg)    
"Pe-2 stabiliser at Bodo. This 'golden' tint is very typical of oxidised ALG-1."

(http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Research/1948/alg1-old-il2.jpg)
"The most corroded example of ALG-1 I have ever seen on an actual part (this found on an Il-2 wing which has sat uncovered in a forest for 70 years) which is starting to turn orange; it is still, however, less corroded than the 1948 booklet chip."

In the different thread was written:
...This brown ALG-1 is also preserved on some Il-2 wings found in the tundra - some authors (namely Pilawskii  ;) ) confused this primer with camouflage paints and called it AII Brown, AMT-1 etc  ;D...

So does color on these images represent yellow-brown primer ALG-1 (IMHO here too bright) or light brown A-21m? AMT-1 on these metal wings seems not to be a case.

    66misos


Title: Re: AMT-1 in Akan's new acrylic lacquer line
Post by: xan on May 09, 2013, 10:18:37 AM
I finished my camo with akan aqueous acrilyc paints:

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2013/05/09//13050910155214768311169217.jpg) (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=13050910155214768311169217.jpg)

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2013/05/09//13050910155314768311169218.jpg) (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=13050910155314768311169218.jpg)

the AMT-12 seems to be black as AMT-6!
the pics are taken inby the morning with lightd woh gar the AMT-1 warmer than it is I think...

I tried without light:

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2013/05/09//13050910155214768311169214.jpg) (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=13050910155214768311169214.jpg)

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2013/05/09//13050910155214768311169215.jpg) (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=13050910155214768311169215.jpg)
I have the impresion that with the AMT-12 at the side, AMT-1 get browner...
What do you thnk about?

Xan





Title: Re: AMT-1 in Akan's new acrylic lacquer line
Post by: bbrought on May 09, 2013, 11:01:52 AM
Xan, I also thought my AMT-12 is too dark, but you know what: The combination on your model looks really good to me. I also agree that the presence of the other colours can influence your perception. On your model, the AMT-1 now definitely looks less grey than it looked before. If it was my model, I would leave it exactly as is.


Title: Re: AMT-1 in Akan's new acrylic lacquer line
Post by: KL on May 09, 2013, 05:36:37 PM
Hi Xan,
Your AMT-12 is OK.  It should be dark - original gray colours of the Le Bourget Yak-3 are also dark. AMT-12 is very dark, almost black.

AMT-1 chip in Albom Nakrasok is somewhat darker and grayer than your AMT-1 (but you should count on distortions caused by your camera, my monitor etc.).

Overall your model looks very, very good!!!  :)
KL


Title: Re: AMT-1 in Akan's new acrylic lacquer line
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 10, 2013, 07:42:37 AM
Hi all,
I've found good photos of a new-built U-2 at http://propjet.ucoz.ru/forum/2-71-3 (http://propjet.ucoz.ru/forum/2-71-3). The paint is new, still semigloss (or semimatt if one prefers).
Here are two:
(http://propjet.ucoz.ru/_fr/0/8044412.jpg)
(http://propjet.ucoz.ru/_fr/0/0474562.jpg)
No doubt, a three shades camouflage.
Now, compare the plane of the photo with the NKAP templates of 1943:

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/1943-45-bombers/tem-u2-43r.jpg)

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/1943-45-bombers/tem-u2-43-br.jpg)

The plane looks to respect well one of the templates (the other one than the model of Xan), but the darker color seems to be green, not grey.

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: AMT-1 in Akan's new acrylic lacquer line
Post by: 66misos on May 10, 2013, 08:59:32 AM
Hi KL,

does, please, color on images in my yesterday post http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1585.msg12327#msg12327 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1585.msg12327#msg12327) represent yellow-brown primer ALG-1 or light brown A-21m? AMT-1 on these metal wings seems not to be a case.
Thank you.

    66misos




Title: Re: AMT-1 in Akan's new acrylic lacquer line
Post by: bbrought on May 10, 2013, 10:02:11 AM
Hi KL, I am also very interested in your ideas about that post from 66misos. The pictures he posted are from EP's discussion on the Albom Nakrasok. I was always very confused by that particular part of EP's argument (actually many other parts also). But there are two issues that stand out for me in this particular case:

1) He uses those pictures to prove that the sample of ALG-1 in the albom cannot possibly be correct and that it is too dark. However, all of those pictures seem to show external surfaces. I am trying to understand whether he is suggesting (a) that the original paint was worn off so evenly as to expose the entire surface of underlying ALG-1 or (b) that those surfaces were actually painted with ALG-1 as a final coat or (c) that these are actually internal surfaces showing the ALG-1 primer on surfaces not painted with a top coat.

2) In that last comment by EP: "The most corroded example of ALG-1 I have ever seen on an actual part (this found on an Il-2 wing which has sat uncovered in a forest for 70 years) which is starting to turn orange; it is still, however, less corroded than the 1948 booklet chip." I am trying to get my mind around how a part lying outside in the elements for 70 years can be less corroded than a paint chip preserved in a book kept in a temperature and humidity controlled building.

Anyway, my own stab at answering (1) is that what we are seeing in those pictures is actually A-21m and not ALG-1. Here is a picture of A-21m as given in the al'bom:
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff39/babroughton/Mixed/A_21_83079.jpg)
I don't know, but to me that chip looks like a fresh version of the "ALG-1" in EP's pictures, which makes it seem to me that he was wrong about it being ALG-1 but that it was rather A-21m that had faded slightly over the years. The fact that they look like external surfaces seem to support this, but maybe I'm missing something here.

Sorry, I don't want to turn it into another EP bashing, but I am truly confused by some of his arguments and this one in particular.


Title: Re: AMT-1 in Akan's new acrylic lacquer line
Post by: bbrought on May 10, 2013, 10:10:40 AM
By the way, here is a link to EP's latest interpretation of VVS colours:
http://www.redbanner.co.uk/History/il2guide/colour-samples.htm

As you can see, his version of A-21m is such a dark grey, that it would explain why he would never consider the possibility that the colour shown in those photographs could, in fact, be A-21m and not ALG-1. Once again, I am trying to figure out how he could interpret a colour called "light brown" as being a medium to dark grey with no brown in it at all.


Title: Re: AMT-1 in Akan's new acrylic lacquer line
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 10, 2013, 12:18:50 PM
Hi all,
Quote
So does color on these images represent yellow-brown primer ALG-1 (IMHO here too bright) or light brown A-21m? AMT-1 on these metal wings seems not to be a case.
Am I wrong, or the light greyish shades are a remain of the light blue of the undersurfaces? I don't see doubts that this yellowish color is due to the primer.
In my idea, it's impossible to rely on photos to show so subtle difference of shades between the wrecks and the chip. The information given by a color photo is forthemost useful to compare colors inside the same photo. We have not even a good vision of the background to estimate the light and color balance of these photos, so we can't really say if the shades of ALG-1 are different or identical.

I don't think that this color is A-21, anyway. We see something of the vegetation on the background, and it appears very dark. I don't think that any flash was utilized, so the light should be similar to that of the wreck. If you lighten the image to give a proper color to the leaves, the shade of the piece is as light as the other ones.

(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff39/babroughton/Mixed/A_21_83079.jpg)

(http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Research/1948/alg1-old-il2.jpg)

Are there other photos known of this wreck?

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: AMT-1 in Akan's new acrylic lacquer line
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 10, 2013, 12:47:50 PM
Hi,
Quote
Once again, I am trying to figure out how he could interpret a colour called "light brown" as being a medium to dark grey with no brown in it at all.
this is true, and one could also ask how he could have considered his AII green as a camouflaging color.  I think that we should forget this table.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: AMT-1 in Akan's new acrylic lacquer line
Post by: 66misos on May 10, 2013, 01:06:17 PM
Hi,
but EP himself put a disclaimer to his latest interpretation of VVS colours at http://www.redbanner.co.uk/History/il2guide/colour-samples.htm (http://www.redbanner.co.uk/History/il2guide/colour-samples.htm):
"...it is intended for representative purposes ONLY. It is not currently possible to guarantee the exact colour or shade of anything drawn on a computer monitor. These samples are to be regarded only as a general familiarization, particularly for those new to the subject, and should not be accepted 'as such' with the value shown on your screen."
So do not take his colors too seriously especially those "not new to the subject". ;)

Compare this chip including photo of Akan paint:
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff39/babroughton/Mixed/A_21_83079.jpg)

with A-21m "chip" directly from AKAN page:
(http://akan.ru/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/resized/_____21__________4d2ee79045bf7_90x90.jpg)
and
(http://akan.ru/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/resized/73079_84x90.JPG)
Of course, different Akan product number, but they both, three show the same color - A-21m. Not a big difference.

Here is a chip of ALG-1 from Albom Nakrasok posted by KL at http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1515.msg12015#msg12015 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1515.msg12015#msg12015):
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/VVS%20colours/1948-scan-alg.jpg)

It could match this quite well:
(http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Research/1948/alg1-old-il2.jpg)

Here I would like to repeat EPs words from above - it is not currently possible to guarantee the exact colour or shade of anything drawn on a computer monitor and should not be accepted 'as such' with the value shown on your screen. IMHO, this disclaimer should start every discussion, or at least disputes about colors.

Regards,
    66misos


Title: Re: AMT-1 in Akan's new acrylic lacquer line
Post by: bbrought on May 10, 2013, 02:07:37 PM
Am I wrong, or the light greyish shades are a remain of the light blue of the undersurfaces?

You could definitely be right. I think this is the huge difficulty in looking at such a limited resolution picture. You can't see for sure what is on top and what is underneath. You see, what I saw in that picture was this:
1) Light grey - oxidised aluminium skin, which typically ends up in all sorts of variations of grey.
2) Dark spots of darkish grey-green primer (top left is best example, but all the borders between light grey and light-brown colour seem to show this dark colour). I thought this was perhaps ALG-5? Apparently, ALG-5 would normally be used with A-21m.
3) A-21m on top.

However, your interpretation is also possible, so I won't try to argue it. I am still surprised that you can end up with such beautifully revealed primer over almost the entire outer skin, with almost nothing left of the top coat. Then again, if that light grey is indeed the top coat, I guess it would make sense. To me it looked like oxidised aluminium, rather than the paint, but as I said what you describe certainly sounds feasible.

I obviously agree 100% with the rest of what you write, namely that you can't rely on photos to reveal subtle differences in colour. I also still feel that if this is indeed ALG-1, then it doesn't prove the albom wrong, as EP suggests. In fact, the darker chip compared to the lighter older, exposed paint on the wreck, would make perfect sense.

Table below mentions use of ALG-5 with A-21m:

(http://propjet.ucoz.ru/_fr/0/3508608.jpg)




Title: Re: AMT-1 in Akan's new acrylic lacquer line
Post by: bbrought on May 10, 2013, 02:24:16 PM
but EP himself put a disclaimer to his latest interpretation of VVS colours at http://www.redbanner.co.uk/History/il2guide/colour-samples.htm (http://www.redbanner.co.uk/History/il2guide/colour-samples.htm):
"...it is intended for representative purposes ONLY. It is not currently possible to guarantee the exact colour or shade of anything drawn on a computer monitor. These samples are to be regarded only as a general familiarization, particularly for those new to the subject, and should not be accepted 'as such' with the value shown on your screen."
So do not take his colors too seriously especially those "not new to the subject". ;)

Sure, I've seen his disclaimer, but there is a point where you feel that if those colours look right on his monitor, he probably needs to invest in a new computer :)


Title: Re: AMT-1 in Akan's new acrylic lacquer line
Post by: bbrought on May 10, 2013, 02:48:30 PM
Am I wrong, or the light greyish shades are a remain of the light blue of the undersurfaces? I don't see doubts that this yellowish color is due to the primer.

and

Quote
Are there other photos known of this wreck?

Massimo, is this not the same aircraft? From your own site on the discussion of bomber colour evolution:
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/1943-45-bombers/pinemyra-01.jpg)

(http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Research/1948/alg1-old-il2.jpg)

That looks like upper surfaces to me?


Title: Re: AMT-1 in Akan's new acrylic lacquer line
Post by: 66misos on May 10, 2013, 03:12:33 PM
Hi bbrought,

...there is a point where you feel that if those colours look right on his monitor, he probably needs to invest in a new computer :)
Fully agree  :D

       66misos


Title: Re: AMT-1 in Akan's new acrylic lacquer line
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 10, 2013, 03:33:10 PM
Hi,
you're very right, it's the same and it's the uppersurface. Now we can see the light on this wing and background, too. Unfortunately, there are not further informations after the discussions already done. If I remember well, it had a layer of red brown primer on the undersurface.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: AMT-1 in Akan's new acrylic lacquer line
Post by: bbrought on May 10, 2013, 03:36:11 PM
Hi,
you're very right, it's the same and it's the uppersurface. Now we can see the light on this wing and background, too. Unfortunately, there are not further informations after the discussions already done. If I remember well, it had a layer of red brown primer on the undersurface.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo, based on this information, do you also think it MIGHT be A-21m, or you still think it is just primer?


Title: Re: AMT-1 in Akan's new acrylic lacquer line
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 10, 2013, 05:36:15 PM
Hi bbrought. I think it is brown, but I don't know if the perception of its look was altered by the underlying paint (red brown?). We're at the same point of the thread on Britmodeller.  I would understand better if there was a layer of green, or red brown or what else under this brown. If I remember well, there was an apparently credible chip on a small hatch that seemed not too terribly different from the A-21 of Akan.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: AMT-1 in Akan's new acrylic lacquer line
Post by: bbrought on May 10, 2013, 05:42:50 PM
Thanks, Massimo. I am quite intrigued now about this particular colour. Very interesting!

Regards,
Bennie


Title: Re: AMT-1 in Akan's new acrylic lacquer line
Post by: KL on May 10, 2013, 08:16:42 PM
If my opinion counts, the ochre areas are ALG-1. I actually have no doubts about this!

It's the same brown-ochre ALG-1 that is shown at Albom Nakrasok ALG-1 chip.
(http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Research/1948/alg1-old-il2.jpg)
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/VVS%20colours/1948-scan-alg.jpg)

No mysteries there, the chip is darker because it's fresh, Il-2 wing is lighter because it's weathered (better to say sun bleached).
Same ochre ALG-1 is used on Musee del'Air Yak-3 on engine cowlings and other large dur-alluminum panels.
Same ochre ALG-1 was used on postwar Li-2s.
Same ochre is visible under green camouflage paint beetwen two guys

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/1943-45-bombers/pinemyra-01.jpg)

Conclusion: ochre was very common ALG-1 colour.

Regarding this Il-2 wing:
I have seen many pieces of wrecks were exterior (camouflage) paint is 90% washed away and what is left is underlaying primer.  Zinc-chromate is more resistant to weathering than camouflage paints, especially nitro paints.  Zinc-chromatte etches alluminum surface and forms compound with alluminum - zinc chromate will not peel off the surface like nitro paint.
It is posible that the gray areas close to the trailing edge are actually remnats of the camouflage paint,either AMT-1 or AMT-12. Impossible to determine which one because the paint is degraded.

Regarding EP:
In 2008 in his Albom Nakrasok tirade, Pilawskii finally identified this as ALG-1.  Before that, around 2005, he made following Il-2 profile:

(http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/DigitalModeling/monthly_profile/june06/il2-white25-mstitel.jpg)

under the influence of the same photo

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/1943-45-bombers/pinemyra-01.jpg)

HTH,
KL



Title: Re: AMT-1 in Akan's new acrylic lacquer line
Post by: bbrought on May 10, 2013, 09:26:44 PM
Thanks for your input, KL. I have also been thinking a bit more about it, and agree that it certainly could be ALG-1 primer. I do wonder though, whether what we see left of the original top coat is the light grey areas, or the dark areas (or both - but two different colours).

By the way, do you know of any artifacts that are likely to be A-21m - I'd like to see the comparison? Similarly, artifacts with AMT-1?


Title: Re: AMT-1 in Akan's new acrylic lacquer line
Post by: 66misos on May 10, 2013, 09:57:51 PM
Hi bbrough,

Check this link http://ktsorens.tihlde.org/flyvrak/allied-2.html (http://ktsorens.tihlde.org/flyvrak/allied-2.html)
There are color photos of the WW2 plane wrecks found in Norway. Just klick the link to any soviet metal plane.



    66misos


Title: Re: AMT-1 in Akan's new acrylic lacquer line
Post by: KL on May 10, 2013, 10:00:15 PM
By the way, do you know of any artifacts that are likely to be A-21m - I'd like to see the comparison? Similarly, artifacts with AMT-1?

see reply no 13, first page of this thread.  :)


Title: Re: AMT-1 in Akan's new acrylic lacquer line
Post by: bbrought on May 11, 2013, 02:30:12 AM
By the way, do you know of any artifacts that are likely to be A-21m - I'd like to see the comparison? Similarly, artifacts with AMT-1?

see reply no 13, first page of this thread.  :)

Thanks, I missed it, although at that point the discussion was still only about AMT-1 and A-21m came up only later. Anyway, let's hope the real answer is "nothing has been found yet", and there is still a wreck out there with a definite sample to be discovered... The use of neither A-21m nor AMT-1 was supposed to have been that rare.


Title: Re: AMT-1 in Akan's new acrylic lacquer line
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 11, 2013, 07:53:14 AM
Hi,
the wing of Pinemyra wreck looks to have brown primer on its undersurface, as visible on these photos from Mustang70 at
http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234933995-vvs-colours-in-the-great-patriotic-war/page-8 (http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234933995-vvs-colours-in-the-great-patriotic-war/page-8)
(http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x266/Redwood70/DSCF0099_zps37669275.jpg)
it looks under the green also
(http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x266/Redwood70/DSCF0097_zps29c71be6.jpg)
here are two pieces cleaned for comparison
(http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x266/Redwood70/SAM_2017_zpse563e0c5.jpg)
Note that the brown is of brighter shade on the upper part of the hatch, and darker in the lower one. It's unclear which is the less altered color.

It's clear that the relatively neat distribution of green and brow on the wing is a relic of the previous camouflage, I don't see other convincing explanations to this fact.
Now, let's compare the wing of Pinemyra with these drawings
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/1943-45-bombers/tem-il2-43r.jpg)
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/1943-45-bombers/tem-il2-43-br.jpg)
We see not good coherence. It resembles the camo of the first drawing, but green and brown are inverted. . However the grey blotch is there.
This would be compatible with some photos of planes of Z.18 (although I don't know where the wrecked plane was bult)
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/il-2m3/53blur.jpg

Conclusions? Hard to say. The primer looks red brown, while the ochre seems an altered remain of the original brown, possibly influenced by the underlying primer.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: AMT-1 in Akan's new acrylic lacquer line
Post by: learstang on May 11, 2013, 05:42:48 PM
The upper part of the cleaned hatch looks similar to some of the interpretations of AMT-1/A-21m, although lighter.  It would be nice to know where that hatch came from on the wing, to see if it came from an area that had Light Brown according to the NKAP templates.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: AMT-1 in Akan's new acrylic lacquer line
Post by: KL on May 11, 2013, 06:23:48 PM
Thanks, I missed it, although at that point the discussion was still only about AMT-1 and A-21m came up only later. Anyway, let's hope the real answer is "nothing has been found yet", and there is still a wreck out there with a definite sample to be discovered... The use of neither A-21m nor AMT-1 was supposed to have been that rare.

Correct, I meant AMT-1 and A-21m haven't been positively identified on wrecks.
AMT-1 and A-21m were not rare, they were used on thousends of Il-2s, Po-2s, Pe-2, Il-4s and Tu-2s. Several factors contributed to situation we have today (nothing yet...):

- majority of planes (of types listed above) were made of wood and fabric
- not a single wartime plane (of types listed above) preserved in museums in Soviet Union
- AMT-1 and other nitro paints were not resistant to aging and weathering  
- after 70 years most of the paint weathered (disappeared) from the wrecks that were exposed to the elements

Regards,
KL