Sovietwarplanes

Post-war Aviation - The Jet Age => Other types and general => Topic started by: Piotr Mikolajski on May 07, 2013, 04:05:53 PM



Title: B-25G Mitchell post-war
Post by: Piotr Mikolajski on May 07, 2013, 04:05:53 PM
I have and Italeri kit and I'm looking for photos or colour profiles of B-25G used in Soviet Union. I've found a lot of information in this article written by Vladimir Kotelnikov: http://читать-онлайн.рф/index.php?id=36975&pages=1 as well as in book "Американцы в России" (Americans in Russia).

I know that two B-25Gs were used in late 1944 by 15th OMRAP (отдельный морской разведывательный авиационный полк - Independent Naval Recon Air Regiment) of Baltic Fleet VVS, probably in Courland or East Prussia area but detailed information and photos seems to be non-existing. Two others were used by 118th OMRAP of Northern Fleet VVS in late 1944 and 1945 - no photo either. I guess that all aircraft were in standard US camouflage Olive Drab / Neutral Grey but what stars were used? What serial numbers? What tactical signs? No data at all.

Post war use is known a little bit but IIRC only one photo is known, very blurry and with little use for modeller.

As far I've collected following post war "variants" of B-25G:
? B-25G "Cargo" - two unarmed aircraft used in 65th Special Air Regiment VVS VMF (65-й авиационный полк специального назначения ВВС ВМФ) but I've found that it could be kind of sub-unit within 65th Independent Transport Air Regiment (отряд особого назначения, 65-й отдельный транспортный авиационный полк);
? B-25G "Staff" - one of those unarmed aircraft rebuild in Leningrad to special staff variant for the commander of VVS VMF;
? B-25G "Щука #1" - used in the program of mining torpedoes "Щука" (Pike) in Yalta, carrying dummy torpedoes;
? B-25G "Щука #2" - used in the program of mining torpedoes "Щука" (Pike) in Yalta, carrying guidance system.

Personally I can give up with G version and I would rebuild this kit to the C/D variant (parts are included in the kit) but I have no reliable info too. "Американцы в России" book on page 97 shows one photo of "Aerogeologiya" aircraft from Ukhta made in 1955 but registration or numbers are not visible.

Any help will be greatly appreciated.


Title: Re: B-25G Mitchell post-war
Post by: learstang on May 07, 2013, 07:06:22 PM
I didn't realise that the Soviet Union had any B-25G's.  What I don't understand is why they would use such normally extremely heavily-armed aircraft (it had the 75mm cannon in the nose) for a reconnaissance aircraft.  It would seem that a glass-nosed version would be more appropriate.  These aeroplanes with the cannon would seem particularly suited for anti-shipping activities, which the Americans used them for in the Pacific.  Do you know if the Soviets used any B-25H's?

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: B-25G Mitchell post-war
Post by: Troy Smith on May 07, 2013, 09:42:46 PM
I not heard of the VVS getting the B-25G either!

Possibly they got used for other tasks if the VVS did not like the 75mm cannon, took that out and used the airframes for other purposes?   I'm just theorising here. 

Be interesting to see what this thread turns up.

T


Title: Re: B-25G Mitchell post-war
Post by: learstang on May 07, 2013, 09:51:28 PM
I not heard of the VVS getting the B-25G either!

Possibly they got used for other tasks if the VVS did not like the 75mm cannon, took that out and used the airframes for other purposes?   I'm just theorising here. 

Be interesting to see what this thread turns up.

T

That's entirely possible, Troy.  The Soviets were quite frugal with their aircraft - if they could find a use for one, they would.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: B-25G Mitchell post-war
Post by: Piotr Mikolajski on May 08, 2013, 12:52:58 AM
I didn't realise that the Soviet Union had any B-25G's.
Just few aircraft, books inform about 8 aircraft transferred to the VVS VMF, I'm not sure if there were any more. It looks like delivery of few (8? 10?) aircraft for test purposes.

What I don't understand is why they would use such normally extremely heavily-armed aircraft (it had the 75mm cannon in the nose) for a reconnaissance aircraft.  It would seem that a glass-nosed version would be more appropriate.  These aeroplanes with the cannon would seem particularly suited for anti-shipping activities, which the Americans used them for in the Pacific.
Because all B-25s were operated by ADD units, first two B-25G were delivered there too. After few test flight and combat missions it was clear that this variant is unsuitable for long range bomber units. All B-25Gs were delivered to naval aviation:
? 2 - 118th OMRAP of VVS Northern Fleet, delivered in 1944;
? 2 - 15th OMRAP of VVS Baltic Fleet, first combat missions in November 1944;
? 1 - 14th Mixed Air Unit of VVS Pacific Fleet, delivered in the end of 1944, soon transferred to the 50th OMRAP of VVS Pacific Fleet;
? 1 - 2nd Mine-Torpedo Air Division of VVS Pacific Fleet.

Do you know if the Soviets used any B-25H's?
I've found following variants:
? B-25B, 40-2242 - interned after raid over Tokio, transferred to Moscow to 65th Special Air Regiment (65-й авиационный полк особого назначения)
? B-25C
? B-25D
? B-25DP - this is Soviet designation of B-25D-30
? B-25G
? B-25J

From 870 assigned 861 were delivered. It seems there were no B-25H, but in mentioned website with Kotelnikov's article I've found following info:

Во 2-м гвардейском полку B-25J с дополнительными пулеметами использовали для ночных штурмовых ударов по аэродромам противника.

If my Russian is correct, it means:

In 2nd Guard Regiment B-25Js with additional machine guns were used for nighttime assaults against the enemy airfields.

I'm not sure what "additional machine guns" mean in this case.


Possibly they got used for other tasks if the VVS did not like the 75mm cannon, took that out and used the airframes for other purposes? I'm just theorising here.
In fact cannons were removed in case of two B-25Gs used in 65th Regiment for transport duties post-war. I guess that two other used in "Щука" trials had gun removed too. But during WWII B-25Gs had cannons installed and used in combat.


Title: Re: B-25G Mitchell post-war
Post by: Troy Smith on May 08, 2013, 01:30:36 AM
Во 2-м гвардейском полку B-25J с дополнительными пулеметами использовали для ночных штурмовых ударов по аэродромам противника.

If my Russian is correct, it means:

In 2nd Guard Regiment B-25Js with additional machine guns were used for nighttime assaults against the enemy airfields.

I'm not sure what "additional machine guns" mean in this case.

Possibly the 8 gun strafer nose used on the B-25J,
eg
(http://sunsite.utk.edu/westcott/punch.jpg)
though I have no idea if the VVS ever received such versions?  The problem is I have only ever seen them described as B-25J gun nose, or strafer nose, but not an assigned sub-type!

or just adding extra guns into the glazed nose, such as this field modified B-25 C
(http://www.michaelmcfadyenscuba.info/images/b25c.jpg)

Not seen any photos  of this :(

cheers
T


Title: Re: B-25G Mitchell post-war
Post by: learstang on May 08, 2013, 01:42:27 AM
That probably refers to the four gun packs that were fitted to the sides of American B-25J's.  Ordinarily the Soviets removed them to save weight, as they normally used the B-25's for long-range level bombing, not ground attack.  Apparently, some B-25J's in Soviet service did retain the fuselage gun packs, for night intrusion work - that's what that Russian statement refers to.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: B-25G Mitchell post-war
Post by: Piotr Mikolajski on May 08, 2013, 01:48:36 AM
Possibly the 8 gun strafer nose used on the B-25J, though I have no idea if the VVS ever received such versions?
AFAIK there were no deliveries of B-25H. But Soviet techs could easily replace glass nose with solid one.

or just adding extra guns into the glazed nose, such as this field modified B-25 C
It's possible but there is third explanation too: Kotelnikov's "additional machine guns" can be just four "cheek" MGs which were additional when compared to standard B-25C/D. Edit: Jason just wrote about this.

Without photos or at least detailed recollection from Soviet aviators we can only guess.


Title: Re: B-25G Mitchell post-war
Post by: barneybolac on May 13, 2013, 09:27:15 AM
Not sure how accurate this link is? It makes mention of one G model delivered during the war.



http://www.americancombatplanes.com/b25_4.html


Title: Re: B-25G Mitchell post-war
Post by: learstang on May 13, 2013, 05:50:37 PM
Not sure how accurate this link is? It makes mention of one G model delivered during the war.



http://www.americancombatplanes.com/b25_4.html

That's an interesting article; thank you for posting it, Barney!  It's also interesting that the Soviets tested the B-26 Marauder, but found it wanting.  I'd wondered why the Soviets didn't use the Marauder; there's the answer - they didn't like it.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: B-25G Mitchell post-war
Post by: Piotr Mikolajski on May 14, 2013, 03:09:45 PM
Not sure how accurate this link is?
Not bad at all but Soviet Union received at least 6 B-25Gs.


Title: Re: B-25G Mitchell post-war
Post by: learstang on May 14, 2013, 07:20:43 PM
Not sure how accurate this link is?
Not bad at all but Soviet Union received at least 6 B-25Gs.

Are there any photographs of these - I'd love to do a combat Soviet B-25G.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: B-25G Mitchell post-war
Post by: KL on May 14, 2013, 08:46:12 PM
Are there any photographs of these - I'd love to do a combat Soviet B-25G.

(http://www.xliby.ru/transport_i_aviacija/mir_aviacii_1993_04/pic_45.jpg)

Ст. лейтенант С. Н. Накоряков у своего B-25G, переделанного в транспортный самолет. 118 орап ВВС Озерного флага


Title: Re: B-25G Mitchell post-war
Post by: learstang on May 14, 2013, 10:06:32 PM
Thank you, Konstantin!  Too bad that's a transport, though.  I guess they didn't use them in combat?

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: B-25G Mitchell post-war
Post by: Piotr Mikolajski on May 14, 2013, 10:12:22 PM
Thank you, Konstantin!  Too bad that's a transport, though.  I guess they didn't use them in combat?
All six mentioned B-25Gs were used in combat, AFAIK conversions for transport duties were performed post war.


Title: Re: B-25G Mitchell post-war
Post by: learstang on May 14, 2013, 10:25:09 PM
Thank you, Konstantin!  Too bad that's a transport, though.  I guess they didn't use them in combat?
All six mentioned B-25Gs were used in combat, AFAIK conversions for transport duties were performed post war.

Thank you, Piotr!  Now if I only had a paint scheme for them.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: B-25G Mitchell post-war
Post by: Piotr Mikolajski on May 15, 2013, 01:13:24 PM
I'm afraid we can guess only - OD + NG + stars in variants painted in 1943 and later.


Title: Re: B-25G Mitchell post-war
Post by: KL on May 15, 2013, 05:42:57 PM
Too bad that's a transport, though.  I guess they didn't use them in combat?

Some info on B-25G service in VVS can be faund in Aviakollektsiya2-2003:

(http://ih3.tr200.net/image2/0240/00/02400002.jpg)

Осенью 1943 года по АЛСИБу из США прибыли несколько самолетов типа B-25G. Это были тяжелые штурмовики, в носовой части которых стояла 75-мм пушка. Поскольку все ?Митчеллы? тогда концентрировались в АДД, то и эти машины передали туда же. Два первых B-25G попали в 15-й гвардейский полк. Первым на самолете этого типа поднялся в воздух подполковник В.А.Гордиловский. Войсковые испытания проводил экипаж А.В.Дудакова. Он сделал три дневных вылета на полигон, а затем провел ночные стрельбы (цель обозначалась кострами). Оказалось, что в темноте пушечный выстрел ослепляет летчика.
Один из двух самолетов (с тем же экипажем Дудакова) применялся на фронте. В первом же боевом вылете, 9 октября, им были уничтожены два железнодорожных эшелона на перегоне Мозырь-Гомель. Стреляли из пушки, неподвижных носовых пулеметов и развернутой вперед башни. Всего Дудаков сделал три боевых полета на B-25G, включая штурмовку аэродрома.
Однако по результатам испытаний B-25G сочли для АДД непригодным. Решили, что отсутствие носовой штурманской кабины неудобно, перезарядка пушки слишком длительна и опасна (на испытаниях ранило затвором заместителя главного инженера корпуса), сдвиг центровки самолета вперед ухудшил управляемость.
Поступившие самолеты передали авиации флота. Все они попали в разведывательные полки. Два штурмовика из 15-го гвардейского полка перешли в 118-й разведывательный полк ВВС Северного флота. Из крупнокалиберной пушки в боевой обстановке, похоже, морские летчики стреляли всего один раз: экипаж майора Наконечного из 118-го полка 25 апреля 1945 года атаковал немецкую подводную лодку, сделав несколько выстрелов из пушки и сбросив глубинные бомбы. Субмарина по советским данным считается поврежденной, экипаж получил ордена и медали.
Еще два B-25G позже вошли в состав 15-го разведывательного полка на Балтике. Их первые боевые выле- ты зафиксированы в ноябре 1944 года.
...
Несколько ?Митчеллов? в послевоенный период переделали в штабные, транспортные и пассажирские. Это имело место и в военной авиации, и в других ведомствах. Так, такие машины имелись в 65-м полку ВВС ВМФ. Среди них были два разоруженных B-25G и салонный ?лимузин? на базе B-25J. В 1947 году один B-25G переделали в Ленинграде в спецсамолет для командующего ВВС ВМФ.
...
В 1947-1948 годах дна B-25G участвовали в программе отработки планирующей торпеды ?Щука? в Евпатории. Один самолет возил макет торпеды, а на втором опробовали систему наведения; в емком фюзеляже разместили инженера-оператора с аппаратурой.


Title: Re: B-25G Mitchell post-war
Post by: learstang on May 15, 2013, 06:05:37 PM
Thank you for the information, Konstantin!  It looks like it did see a little bit of combat.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: B-25G Mitchell post-war
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 15, 2013, 07:57:04 PM
I've this one, if needed. But there are very few photos of Soviet ones and a page of profiles, the books of Geust are by far better on this point.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: B-25G Mitchell post-war
Post by: Piotr Mikolajski on May 15, 2013, 11:36:24 PM
Massimo, are any photos of B-25Gs in Geust book? Maybe just profile? I'm going to build this kit and started conversion to transport variant but with better photo or profile I could revert changes and build combat ready one.


Title: Re: B-25G Mitchell post-war
Post by: KL on May 16, 2013, 02:14:44 AM
Massimo, are any photos of B-25Gs in Geust book? Maybe just profile?

No photos, no profiles.  B-25G is not even mentioned in Geust's book.


Title: Re: B-25G Mitchell post-war
Post by: Piotr Mikolajski on May 16, 2013, 02:38:01 AM
So no hope because I have all Russian books about Mitchell I'm aware of. On the other hand I can build everything ;)


Title: Re: B-25G Mitchell post-war
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 16, 2013, 07:03:17 AM
No photos, the only one that let me in doubt is this one, but there are not straight barrels under the covers so probably it's not the case.
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lendlease/b25unkn.jpg)
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: B-25G Mitchell post-war
Post by: barneybolac on May 16, 2013, 08:47:59 AM
No photos, the only one that let me in doubt is this one, but there are not straight barrels under the covers so probably it's not the case.
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lendlease/b25unkn.jpg)
Regards
Massimo


That is a G model radio loop antenna on top where the H model had it mounted below the fusalage & I can tell by the shape of the nose of the aircraft that it is or was a cannon armed plane. Also the tarp has two sleeves for the two 50 cals that would have been mounted in the nose. My guess this is one of them that has been turned into a transport at this stage.

Great photo any way even if the plane is hidden.


Title: Re: B-25G Mitchell post-war
Post by: Piotr Mikolajski on May 16, 2013, 05:06:15 PM
Excellent find indeed. But I guess this photo shows armed B-25G and was made during war. There are no reasons to put temporary winter camouflage during peace time. And we know that armed B-25Gs were still used in combat until the VJ-day.

My guess: one of B-25Gs used by Baltic Fleet or Northern Fleet in late 1944/early 1945.


Title: Re: B-25G Mitchell post-war
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 16, 2013, 05:40:23 PM
Hi,
I'm happy that the photo is interesting. It seems that the  barrels on the nose have been removed. Was the G suitable as a bomber? Could them have not appreciated the gun armament and converted it as a transport plane during the war?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: B-25G Mitchell post-war
Post by: Piotr Mikolajski on May 16, 2013, 06:32:05 PM
Was the G suitable as a bomber?
Prototype had option for 3000 pound of bombs but I'm not sure what was configuration of serial built aircraft.

Could them have not appreciated the gun armament and converted it as a transport plane during the war?
Almost certainly not those from Naval Abiation. Soviet Union received about 10 aircraft (Kotelnikov: "Около десятка машин поступило в Советский Союз".) and naval aviation received 8 of them, in late 1944. From Kotelnikov's article and book that both Baltic and Northern Fleet used them in combat in 1945. But it seems there were two aircraft remaining and I'll quote Kotelnikov later.

Here is what Kotelnikov wrties about B-25Gs in Soviet Union:
     Осенью 1943 г. по АЛСИБу из США прибыло несколько самолетов типа B-25G. Поскольку все ?Митчеллы? тогда концентрировались в АДД, то и эти машины передали туда же. Два первых B-25G попали в 15-й гвардейский полк. Первым на самолете этого типа поднялся в воздух подполковник В.А. Гордиловский. Войсковые испытания проводил экипаж А.В. Дудакова. Он сделал три дневных вылета на полигон, а затем провел ночные стрельбы (цель обозначалась кострами). Оказалось, что в темноте пушечный выстрел ослепляет летчика.

      Один из двух самолетов (с тем же экипажем Дудакова) применялся на фронте. В первом же боевом вылете 9 октября им были уничтожены два железнодорожных эшелона на перегоне Мозырь ? Гомель. Стреляли из пушки, неподвижных носовых пулеметов и развернутой вперед башни. Всего Дудаков сделал три боевых полета на B-25G, включая штурмовку аэродрома.

      Однако по результатам испытаний B-25G сочли для АДД непригодным. Решили, что отсутствие носовой штурманской кабины неудобно, перезарядка пушки слишком длительна и опасна (на испытаниях ранило затвором заместителя главного инженера корпуса), сдвиг центровки самолета вперед ухудшил управляемость.

      Поступившие самолеты передали авиации флота. Все они попали в разведывательные полки. Два штурмовика из 15-го гвардейского полка перешли в 118-й разведывательный полк ВВС Северного флота. Из крупнокалиберной пушки в боевой обстановке, похоже, морские летчики стреляли всего один раз: экипаж майора Наконечного из 118-го полка 25 апреля 1945 г. атаковал немецкую подводную лодку, сделав несколько выстрелов из пушки и сбросив глубинные бомбы. На поверхности появились обломки и масляное пятно. Субмарина, по советским данным, считается поврежденной, экипаж получил ордена и медали. Немцы потерю лодки не признают.

      Еще два B-25G позже вошли в состав 15-го разведывательного полка на Балтике. Их первые боевые вылеты относятся к ноябрю 1944 г.

      На Тихом океане В-25 появились в конце 1944 г. Один самолет числился за 14-м смешанным авиаотрядом, базировавшимся на аэродроме Вторая речка, другой ? за управлением 2-й минно-торпедной дивизии. Машина из 14-го отряда затем перешла в 50-й разведывательный полк, на ней летал командир полка майор И.В. Сидин. Всего военно-морской флот официально получил восемь В-25.

Short information about interned B-25s:
     На Курилах использовались и несколько самолетов, полученных неофициальным путем. Они были интернированы в 1943?1945 гг. Первые четыре из них сели на аэродроме Елизово под Петропавловском после налета американской авиации на о. Парамушир 11 сентября 1943 г. Эти машины принадлежали 77-й бомбардировочной эскадрилье ВВС армии США. Еще один бомбардировщик добавился, через год, 17 сентября 1944 г. Всего на Камчатке приземлились 12 В-25. Последний из них, B-25J Р. Уолбринка, сильно поврежденный японскими зенитчиками, сел на ?брюхо? 10 июня 1945 г. Несколько самолетов удалось отремонтировать и поставить в строй 128-й смешанной дивизии. На 27 августа в ней насчитывалось пять В-25, из них четыре в 903-м бомбардировочном полку. Все они были разных модификаций ? С, D, G, и J. Их использовали как учебные, для подготовки экипажей к переходу на американские бомбардировщики А-20, а также для различных вспомогательных целей.

And final note about transport conversion and post-war use:
     В начале 1945 г. ?Митчеллы? решили передать в 3-ю дивизию связи, базировавшуюся на подмосковном аэродроме Мячково. Ее основной задачей была перевозка курьеров и документации к фронту и обратно. В феврале инженеры дивизии разработали проект переделки В-25 в связной самолет. В марте в Мячково прибыли две машины, причем обе ? модификации G. В том же месяце первая из них подверглась доработке. Позднее она прошла испытания в НИИ ГВФ; летал на ней Б. Остапчук. С апреля началась их постоянная эксплуатация. В июне к двум имевшимся ранее самолетам добавился третий. (...) Самолеты из 3-й дивизии связи перешли к Якутскому управлению ГВФ и летали там до ноября 1948 г. (...)

      Аналогичные переделки выполнялись как в гражданской, так и в военной авиации. Подобные машины имелись в 65-м полку ВВС ВМФ. Среди них были два разоруженных B-25G и салонный ?лимузин? на базе B-25J. В 1947 г. один B-25G переоборудовали в Ленинграде в специальный штабной самолет для командующего ВВС ВМФ.

      Часть машин приспособили для различных экспериментов. Один бомбардировщик переделали в летающий стенд для испытания реактивных двигателей. Третий двигатель у него стоял на пилоне над фюзеляжем. В частности, на этой машине испытывали ТРД РД-10Ф. В 1947?1948 гг. на B-25J (без вооружения) опробовались отечественные взлетные ускорители ?93-I? (пороховые) и СУ-1500 (с ЖРД). В 1948 г. в ЛИИ испытывали отделяемую кабину экспериментального ракетного самолета ?346?, В 1947?1948 гг. два B-25G участвовали в программе отработки планирующей торпеды ?Щука? в Евпатории. Один самолет возил макет торпеды, а на втором опробовали систему наведения; в емком фюзеляже разместили инженера-оператора с аппаратурой. В ОКБ-115 в 1949 г. разработали систему ?Бурлак?. С ее помощью предполагалось увеличить радиус действия реактивных истребителей, который поначалу был очень небольшим. Бомбардировщик стыковался с истребителем в воздухе и далее тянул его на буксире. Сперва экспериментировали с Ту-2 и Як-23, а затем приспособили В-25 и Як-25 (первую машину под этим обозначением, с одним двигателем). Бомбардировщик лебедкой БЛК-1 выпускал на тросе воронку. Истребитель нес в носовой части ?гарпун? с шарниром, которым должен был попасть в воронку.

      Испытания ?Бурлака? проводились в ЛИИ в июне 1949 ? марте 1950 г. На Як-25 летал С.Н. Анохин, на В-25 ? пилот Торощенко. Удачно провели семь сцепок. Испытания продолжили в июле. Теперь В-25 пилотировал В.Ф. Хапов. На втором этапе выполняли ночные сцепки, для чего на бомбардировщик поставили сигнальную красную фару, а на воронке закрепили светоотражатели. Истребитель подсвечивал себе посадочной фарой, которую специально развернули немного вверх. ?Митчелл? тащил истребитель на скорости 320?330 км/ч и мог позволить себе только плавные эволюции. Работы по системе ?Бурлак? велись до 1956 г., но в качестве буксировщика уже использовали Ту-4, а тянули МиГ-15.

Most of information from this article was posted in this thread earlier.


Title: Re: B-25G Mitchell post-war
Post by: KL on May 16, 2013, 06:34:25 PM
From 2008 Model Aircraft Monthly

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/NakoryakovB-25G_zps5053f823.jpg)

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/ShchukaB-25G_zps75aa05c7.jpg) (http://s292.photobucket.com/user/klesnikov/media/Posted%20in%20forums/ShchukaB-25G_zps75aa05c7.jpg.html)



Title: Re: B-25G Mitchell post-war
Post by: Piotr Mikolajski on May 16, 2013, 07:20:18 PM
Two photos of the same aircraft. Excellent find indeed. Can you tell which issue exactly it was?


Title: Re: B-25G Mitchell post-war
Post by: KL on May 16, 2013, 07:59:37 PM
Hi Piotr,
It's one and the same text by V. Kotelnikov that was published in "Amerikantsi v Rosii", in Aviakollektsiya magazine and in Model Aircraft Monthly magazine.

Some of the info in Kotelnikov's text is questionable.  For example, 15 orap KBF received 2 B-25s in mid 1944 - one cannon armed B-25G and one unarmed B-25J that was used as a transport.  B-25G was sent to the North shortly after it's arrival (from a book about VMF aviation units).  Another questionable point:  "Shchuka" didn't exist in 1947, it's design started in 1948...


Title: Re: B-25G Mitchell post-war
Post by: Piotr Mikolajski on May 17, 2013, 12:45:58 AM
Text in book and quoted here text from "Aviakollektsiya" are slightly different in details but it's good to know that nothing new was there.

It's really bad that all available info about B-25Gs are from Kotelnikov and that these informations seems to be not quite correct. I really really would like to build B-25G in Baltic Fleet camouflage, especially the one flying over East Prussia. But even B-25G rebuild for staff or transport duties would be nice. Now I have to build another variant or build kind of fantasy plane.


Title: Re: B-25G Mitchell post-war
Post by: KL on May 17, 2013, 02:29:07 AM
It's really bad that all available info about B-25Gs are from Kotelnikov and that these informations seems to be not quite correct. I really really would like to build B-25G in Baltic Fleet camouflage, especially the one flying over East Prussia. But even B-25G rebuild for staff or transport duties would be nice. Now I have to build another variant or build kind of fantasy plane.

Kotelnikov is one of the more reliable authors, most of the text is probably correct...
How about "what if" plane:  If B-25G participated in "Shchuka" project in 1947-48, it probably carried German Hs-293 missiles - this would make an interesting model!

Google РАМТ-1400 ?Щука?, to learn more about the project.


Title: Re: B-25G Mitchell post-war
Post by: Piotr Mikolajski on May 17, 2013, 02:06:42 PM
Seems to be good alternative and sounds interesting. Уголок неба (http://www.airwar.ru/weapon/pkr/ramt1400.html) site shows following drawings of РАМТ-1400 "Щука-Б" and I think I can try to build this one. I guess that for this role turret was removed as well as gun.

(http://www.airwar.ru/image/i/weapon/ramt-1400.gif)

BTW, I find it quite interesting that all sources mention Tu-2D and Il-28 only as mother ships, no mention about B-25Gs. It seems this article (http://avia.mirtesen.ru/blog/43749186444/Letyat-%22SCHuki%22...) (in Russian) provides most details and I'm not sure about use of B-25s in "Щука". Maybe you are right and maybe B-25Gs were used in the trials of different weapon? Or maybe even in Hs 293 or Hs 294 tests in Crimea?


Title: Re: B-25G Mitchell post-war
Post by: KL on May 17, 2013, 07:26:36 PM
Hi Piotr,
first air launch of the Shchuka misile happened on June 16 1949 from Tu-2T.  You may read about this at  http://www.e-reading-lib.org/djvureader.php/140232/27/Shirokorad_-_Ognenyii_Mech_Rosiiiskogo_Flota.html

Another text about Shchuka and its development is available here:  http://avia.mirtesen.ru/blog/43749186444/Letyat-%22SCHuki%22...

About Hs-293 and its 1948 tests  by the Ministry of Agricultural Mashinery:

Как ни странно, освоение Hs-293A в Советском Союзе в 1947 году было поручено Министерству сельскохозяйственного машиностроения. Дело не в названии ведомства - в начале 1946 года в ходе преобразования государственного управления в Наркомате, а затем в Министерстве сельскохозяйственного машиностроения были сосредоточены практически все предприятия бывшего Наркомата боеприпасов. Однако, в соответствии с основополагающим для отечественного ракетостроения Постановлением Совета Министров СССР от 13 мая 1946 года № 1017-419, головным министерством по реактивным самолетам-снарядам был определен Минавиапром, а Минсельхозмашу поручили разработку и производство реактивных снарядов с пороховыми двигателями.

Однако Hs-293 в 1947 году попал-таки в Минсельхозмаш - видимо как боеприпас - "планирующая бомба" или "реактивная торпеда" и был передан для изучения в расположенное в Москве КБ-2 этого министерства, организованное в соответствии с упомянутым Постановлением на базе филиала № 2 НИИ-1 Минавиапрома (бывшего РНИИ) и занятое, в основном, работами по небольшим пороховым реактивным снарядам.

В 1948 при участии специалистов КБ-2 были проведены летные испытания Hs-293. В качестве носителя был дооборудован самолет Ту-2Д, Для подготовки экипажа носителя в качестве имитаторов Hs-293 использовались два Ла-11. Кроме того, к испытаниям привлекались два Ту-2 с фотоаппаратурой и два По-2 для поиска упавших ракет.

Пуски собранных в КБ-2 Hs-293A проводились как с системой наведения "Kehl-Strassburg", так и с отечественной радиокомандной системой "Печора", а также в нештатном исполнении - с автономной системой управления. Из 24 запущенных ракет с радиокомандными системами наведения в цель попало только 3. По результатам испытаний воспроизведение в серии ненадежного и уже явно устаревшего Hs-293 было признано нецелесообразным, хотя ранее и прорабатывалась возможность его запуска в производство на авиационном заводе № 272 в Ленинграде.


My guess is that by 1949, B-25s were too old and woren out for Shchuka tests.  1947 tests at Evpatoriya were probably Hs-293 tests performed by the Navy.


Title: Re: B-25G Mitchell post-war
Post by: KL on May 17, 2013, 07:45:02 PM
Better photo showing Nakoryakov

(http://crimso.msk.ru/Images6/AK/AK2009-02/20-1.jpg)


Title: Re: B-25G Mitchell post-war
Post by: Piotr Mikolajski on May 17, 2013, 08:51:09 PM
First air launch of the Shchuka misile happened on June 16 1949 from Tu-2T.  You may read about this at  http://www.e-reading-lib.org/djvureader.php/140232/27/Shirokorad_-_Ognenyii_Mech_Rosiiiskogo_Flota.html
Unfortunately I've got "Sorry, the page you are looking for is currently unavailable. Please try again later." information. I'll try later ;)

Another text about Shchuka and its development is available here:  http://avia.mirtesen.ru/blog/43749186444/Letyat-%22SCHuki%22...
I've linked this article in comment above :D

My guess is that by 1949, B-25s were too old and woren out for Shchuka tests.  1947 tests at Evpatoriya were probably Hs-293 tests performed by the Navy.
It seems you are right. B-25s could be used in tests in 1947 but not in 1949 and later.

Better photo showing Nakoryakov
This photo was always described as "transport variant of B-25G" but I'm quite sure all three photos of Nakoryakov's B-25G posted in this thread were made during the same photo session.

I think that this aircraft had removed gun (but gun port in nose is still visible) and probably had removed turret too. I'm not sure if it was transport aircraft during 1947 trials of Hs 293 / Hs 294 or maybe if this was launch pad of these missiles. There are no visible modifications to carry Hs 293 under fuselage but this is not proof for anything - I can imagine that aircraft could carry missile in bomb bay with doors open and could close it after launch. But more important - B-25J had kind of ventral shackles able to hold one external Mark 13 air-dropped torpedo.

BTW, I've found one more thing and I think I know why Kotelnikov writes about "Щука". Just look on these images:

This photo is described as "Original German WWII designer's model of the Henschel Hs 294 Torpedo Bomb":

(http://p2.la-img.com/1022/19979/6836852_1_l.jpg)

This is drawing of initial variant of "Щука":

(http://mtdata.ru/u26/photoABBB/20608574579-0/original.jpg)

Few more photos are available at http://www.luftarchiv.de/index.htm?/flugkorper/hs293_294_295.htm (http://www.luftarchiv.de/index.htm?/flugkorper/hs293_294_295.htm) website and in my opinion this is slightly modified Henschel Hs 294. So building modified B-25G with Henschel Hs 294 is not so strange or stupid idea ;)


Title: Re: B-25G Mitchell post-war
Post by: barneybolac on May 18, 2013, 07:26:27 AM
Better photo showing Nakoryakov

(http://crimso.msk.ru/Images6/AK/AK2009-02/20-1.jpg)

Interesting picture the twin 50 cals are gone as is the cannon port that would have been mounted on our right of the photo or the aircrafts left side. I did notice something unusual though there seems to be what looks like a portal of some kind with a round apparatus mounted in the low center of the nose that is not typical of any B-25G I have ever seen before. Did they mount the cannon other than the left side on the aircraft at some point of the B25G model?
I never heard of that before & it would be very unique if so.


(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitchell%20B-25H/20-1_zps849c9b56.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitchell%20B-25H/20-1_zps849c9b56.jpg.html)

A typical B25G cannon portal.


(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitchell%20B-25H/Scan6_zps064a9319.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitchell%20B-25H/Scan6_zps064a9319.jpg.html)

 (http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitchell%20B-25H/ArtilleryB25SharkArtillery300_zps3130b01e.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitchell%20B-25H/ArtilleryB25SharkArtillery300_zps3130b01e.jpg.html)


(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitchell%20B-25H/north-american-b-25h-mitchell-pacific-1944-bomber-01_zpsaffdb7f7.png) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitchell%20B-25H/north-american-b-25h-mitchell-pacific-1944-bomber-01_zpsaffdb7f7.png.html)




Or is it something else the Russians may have modified on that aircraft?


Title: Re: B-25G Mitchell post-war
Post by: barneybolac on May 18, 2013, 07:36:33 AM
Better photo showing Nakoryakov

I think that this aircraft had removed gun (but gun port in nose is still visible)


It would be very interesting if that is the cannon port in that location.
Or did the Russians modify the outer skin for something else?


Title: Re: B-25G Mitchell post-war
Post by: Piotr Mikolajski on May 19, 2013, 08:13:55 PM
It would be very interesting if that is the cannon port in that location.
I would say this is original gun port in the nose but without better quality photo or other photos it's impossible to tell anything more. It can be gun, it can be hole (IMO not much sense honestly, too much drag), it can be kind of probe, camera or anything else useful during tests. Last but not least it can be hole patched with metal plate painted with darker paint.

Or did the Russians modify the outer skin for something else?
IIRC additional windows were added in transport variants but not in this area.


Title: Re: B-25G Mitchell post-war
Post by: KL on May 22, 2013, 09:40:29 PM
I did a bit more Internet search on Hs-293 and "Shchuka" projects.  Not much available, but it's interesting:

In 1947 a group of 30 interned German specialsts was organized as a design bureau KB-2, formally under the Ministry of Agricultural Machinery Production.  Bureau was lead by D.L. Tomashevich, designer of I-110, also imprizoned at that time.  Bureau's main task was to prepare Hs-293 for series production planned at a Factory in Leningrad.

By 1948, 24 Hs-293 were ready for tests with various types of remote control (German and Soviet).  Tests were done with Tu-2D, pilot was captain V.V. Zentsov.  From 24 Hs-293 launched, only 3 hit the target.  It was then decided, in April 1948, to design a new misile.  This new misile was named Shchuka.

Modifications of Tu-2 for "Shchuka" project were made at OKB-30 headed by A.P. Golubkov in 1948.

Большинство доработок Ту-2 выполнили в ОКБ-30 под руководством А.П. Голубкова. В 1948 году начали дорабатывать один из Ту-2Д для подвески реактивной торпеды (крылатой противокорабельной ракеты) "Хеншель" 293-А. Для тренировки экипажей самолетов-торпедоносцев "Хеншеля" оборудовали два истребителя Ла-11. Ту-2 использовался также для исследований макета крылатой ракеты "Шторм" М.Р. Бисновата и реактивной крылатой торпеды "Щука". На морском полигоне около Феодосии с Ту-2 сделали 15 пусков с высот от 2000 до 5000 метров на дистанциях от 12 до 30 км. Дальнейшие испытания и доводка "Щуки" проходили на самолете Ил-28, но на вооружение ее так и не приняли.

Hs-293 at http://www.rulit.net/books/aviaciya-i-kosmonavtika-2007-02-read-233266-8.html

Tomashevich's biography at  http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/topic-666.html and http://www.xliby.ru/transport_i_aviacija/samolety_mira_2001_02/p2.php

Tu-2 flying labs http://pro-samolet.ru/samolety-sssr-ww2/bomberdir/81-bombardir-tu-2?start=6


Title: Re: B-25G Mitchell post-war
Post by: Piotr Mikolajski on May 23, 2013, 06:28:57 PM
It seems that B-25s could not be involved in Hs 293 tests. Kotelnikov connects B-25Gs in some kind of bombs / missiles tests. It means that Kotelnikov is wrong and B-25s were not involved in such trials or... Kotelnikov is right and B-25s were used for tests but with another weapon.

I tried to find some more info about Hs 294 trials in Soviet Union but information are almost non-existing.


Title: Re: B-25G Mitchell post-war
Post by: KL on May 23, 2013, 07:03:48 PM
It seems that B-25s could not be involved in Hs 293 tests. Kotelnikov connects B-25Gs in some kind of bombs / missiles tests. It means that Kotelnikov is wrong and B-25s were not involved in such trials or...

Or the other way around...  :)
1.  Since Kotelnikov is a "relatively" reliable source, it seems that B-25Gs were involved in some radio controlled missile tests in 1947-48.

2.  1947-48 tests were not related to the activities of KB-2 design bureau and later "Shchuka" Project.

3.  Soviets were extremely interested in Hs-293 - some were captured, some assembled from captured parts, series production was planned.  Hs-293 was extensively tested, various methods of control were considered.  Eventually,initial Shchuka was a development of Hs-293/294.

Again, if B-25G was involved in radio controlled missile tests in 1947-48, the missile was clearly Hs-293.  There was nothing else available.  :)


Title: Re: B-25G Mitchell post-war
Post by: Piotr Mikolajski on May 23, 2013, 08:20:25 PM
There were Hs 294s in Soviet Union :)

Information about captured Hs 293s and Hs 294s can be found in "Огненный меч Российского флота". Rostislav Angelskiy in "Esli bu Ne Korolev" article wrote:

Quote
На завод №70 в Москву также прибыли "Фау?2", "Рейнтохтер" и, кроме того, крылатые ракеты Хеншель HS?293А и HS?294, управляемые бомбы "Фриц-X", противотанковые гранатометы "Панцерштрек".

Plant №70 in Moscow received V-2, "Rheintochter" and, additionally, guided missiles Henschel Hs 293A and Hs 294, guided bombs "Fritz-X", "Panzerschreck" anti-tank grenade launcher.

(Angelskiy, R. A., Esli bu Ne Korolev, Aviatsiya i Kosmonavtika, 4.98, p. 22 (http://epizodsspace.airbase.ru/bibl/a-i-k/1998/4/ne-korolev.html))

Unfortunately I have no info how many of 125-165 manufactured before May 1945 were captured and delivered to Soviet Union. But idea of Hs 294, rocket torpedo weapon, different from guided bomb Hs 293, was developed in "Shchuka" Project. These missiles have to be tested but there are no info at all. Why?