Sovietwarplanes

Hi

now this scheme is widely known, from profiles and the ICM kit

eg bort 78
(http://img.wp.scn.ru/camms/ar/52/pics/1_3.jpg)


and the ICM kit
(http://www.aviapress.com/engl/icm/icm48073.jpg)

and this famous photo in Red Stars 1

(http://ram-home.com/ram-old/spitfire-9.jpg)

There are others, but  I have never seen a clear photo showing a Spitfire IX with a white tail and bort number showing.

Are there any not published in the west? Or are the profiles 'best guess' from known information?

cheers
Troy

The same photo is on Red stars 4.
I guess that the tail is not white on this photo, perhaps silver.
Regards
Massimo

Hi,
I've received informations and scans from Ilya Grinberg.
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lendlease/spitfire/26giap Litavrin_Matsievich_Scherbina.jpeg)
The white tail is justified, even if it is chipping on this image.
Note the number; it has a thin outline of unidentified color.
I hope to know some more details from him.
Regards
Massimo

That is brilliant Massimo, and thanks to Ilya.

It's a very appealing scheme, and now confirmation.

A list of serial numbers would be great as well.  I look forward to finding out more.   

note, for those Spitfire enthusiasts out there this site
http://www.airhistory.org.uk/spitfire/production.html

has a list of every Spitfire built, that's 115 pages.   
The descriptions are often very breif, just the serial, engine fitted, where built and when first flown, but may be of help if you are unaware of this resource.


Does Ilya know anything about post war Spitfire use, and are there any clear photos of repainted planes?  I know there are some in Red Stars 4 but they are very small and hard to make out any real detail.

cheers
Troy

Hi,
I've asked for details to Ilya, I'll keep you informed.
I remember to have read an interview with a Soviet Spitfire pilot, probably of this unit, somewhere, perhaps on airforce.ru. Oleg will certainly know it.
Regards
Massimo

White tails and spinners were a quick recognition sign for all VVS combat planes on Leningrad Front in 1944.
Hundreds of planes actually had white tails and spinners - there is no need to guess and interpret colour from a single photo...

Some examples:
103 giap P-39Q
(http://www.airforce.ru/history/ww2/captivity/p-39_galanin.jpg)

101 giap P-39s
(http://www.photo-war.com/photo/shop/4358.jpg)

probably this Spitfire too?
(http://vadimvswar.narod.ru/ALL_OUT/AiKOut06/Spitfire/Spitfire389.jpg)
regards,
KL

Konstantin, were all the Spitfires after the Kuban offensive assigned to PVO units, or did some continue in use with frontal units?  I presume all the Leningrad Spitfires were with the PVO (at least the Mk.IX's).

Regards,

Jason

Hi KL,
this was posted one day latter than quotation you relate on:

Anyhow, this spinner and tail look silver, not white:
(http://bell.pictures.fi/kuvat/Aviation/Museums/Ilmatorjunta%20museo/P-39/548U3053.jpg/_full.jpg)

(http://bell.pictures.fi/kuvat/Aviation/Museums/Ilmatorjunta%20museo/P-39/548U3094.jpg/_full.jpg)

regards,
     66misos

Yes, according to Kotelnikov's book and texts.  By VE-day, 26 out of 81 PVO regiments were equiped with Spitfires.  Spitfire had better high altitude performances than VVS fighters and heavy armament.  Its low level performances were inferior to standard VVS fighters.


If that was a black and white photo of a 1941 Junkers Ju-87B with its nose repainted in light colour, it would be automatically assumed that the light colour was yellow.  I don?t think that anybody would attempt to guess colour (white, light blue, etc.) relying on a single photo?

Regarding the P-39 in the Finnish museum ? if I remember correctly, spinner is silver and tail is white.  But, as you know, the plane was restored and not all the parts are original (propeller) and not all the paints are original (for example gray-green lines around stars).

Anyway, now you know what was the purpose of white spinners and tails ? those were not personal markings nor regimental markings.  Comments on shade of white or other details are really a nit-picking.

Regards,
KL

 

Hi Misos,

Very right
Again, very right.

Now, here is a detail of the photo of P-39s:
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lendlease/p-39/46-30-96.jpg)
Seems that many of the planes shown as examples of white spinners, tails etc were not so white. One could also note that they aren't Spitfires and aren't of the 26th GvIAP.
We see both white numbers and darker numbers, white spinners and darker spinners. What color could it be?
Seems that white and aluminium were utilized indifferently in some units. This could be the case of the plane in the Finnish museum.

Regards
Massimo

Hi,

here http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1363.msg10231#msg10231 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1363.msg10231#msg10231) I found:


Quotation from http://www.oocities.org/capecanaveral/4676/reference/russian.htm (http://www.oocities.org/capecanaveral/4676/reference/russian.htm)
RUSSIAN WW2 SILVER & OTHER COLOURS, Taken from rec.models.scale newsgroup - author Kari Lumppio:
There is a war-time handbook for chemical industry making paints for  VVS. It contains also color samples for the paints... This book gives only three colors for exterior markings for VVS: white, red and aluminium (silver)...
Silver borders for VVS stars is a stonehard fact. You can even access the  evidence in Internet. Photos of two very different cases of P-39 Russian  Airacobras with such stars can be found...
So it's altogether three different Russian P-39's with silver-bordered stars. Drawing conclusions from only one example could be dangerous.

Well, I do not think that "guessing" silver instead of white color in specific cases for front/unit marking, inscriptions etc. in VVS is such nonsense.
  
    66misos

Hi Konstantin
I've seen this Spitfire discussed somewhere, quite possibly here, I can't find the bit right now, but this was a test aircraft for canopy hood jettison trails IIRC.   Look at the canopy area.
I'd suggest this plane had a red spinner and rudder.  

The photo first appeared in Red Stars 4 I think, that was the first place I saw it.

[EDIT]
I knew I had seen this image elsewhere, here - http://www.thescale.info/news/publish/printer_russian-spitfires.shtml

The image is clearer here.

there are  more photos on the page,  but nothing not already in the Red Stars books.

Two I think are of note

This for the 'lightning bolt' emblem, in Red Stars 4 there is a pic of a plane like this in the background.  
(http://www.thescale.info/news/uploads/russian-spitfire-1.jpg)

This is of interest as it appears to have a uniform upper surface colour, if so then repainted in Soviet colours, post GPW?  
(http://www.thescale.info/news/uploads/russian-spitfire-92-2.jpg)

There is a profile in Red Stars 4 [but no photo] of a "Spitfire IXE, 'blue 2', Lt Col. V.A. Matsiyevich, 26 GIAP, Leningrad spring 1945" in overall gree upper surface and with a white lightning bolt.
(http://i519.photobucket.com/albums/u352/BigBirdsecondary/CCCP%20Spitfire/Spit.gif)

from http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/38430-148-icm-spitfire-lfixe/
I'd forgotten ICM did a boxing of this
Is there any photo evidence for this profile scheme?
I know Xan did a build, mentioned on here, and here http://www.master194.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=72757&start=25#p829012
with this from the Osprey book
(http://nsm03.casimages.com/img/2010/05/24//100524081707534316094770.jpg)

With this blown up pic
(http://www.legang.fr/maquettes/Spitfire%20mkIXE%20xan/petites%20photos/100727090652534316474645.jpg)



The photo Massimo posted has an interesting feature, worth commenting
Note the very far back position of the fuselage star compared to other VVS Spitfires.   As the stars seem ot have been appiled by the  British pre delivery this possibly was repainted in VVS service?

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lendlease/spitfire/26giap%20Litavrin_Matsievich_Scherbina.jpeg)

Any more info from Ilya as yet?

cheers
T

Hi,
The drawings of 78 and 32 have the same characteristic, it could be typical of the unit. I suppose that the red stars were painted by Soviet crews. The rear part of the fuselage seems repainted in all planes, saving the code.
Another thing on P-39s, the last one here I hope:
The photo shown to bear an example of generalised white tails shows one tail only.
(http://www.photo-war.com/photo/shop/4358.jpg)
One could compare the tail to the spinner of the other plane.
If you look carefully, you can also see the outline of the star made with a lighter color. Lighter than white?
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lendlease/p-39/lenin-det.jpg)

Regards
Massimo

Hi,

here is well known plane from 159 IAP. Star outline on the tail seems to be brighter then the rudder - looks like red white-outlined star over silver background:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/La-5/159IAP_LA-5FN_no15_ZaVaskuiZhoru_zpsdb2ba4df.jpg)

Another plane from 159 IAP. Again, same as previous, star outline on the tail seems to be brighter then the rudder - original red white-outlined star partially overpainted with something darker (silver?) than white:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/La-5/159IAP_La-5_01_zps88900278.jpg)

Yesterday I browsed in MBI publication about La-5. There is text about camo & painting by Milos Vetsik. There is one b&w photo and two color profiles of 159 IAP planes with description - silver nose and silver rudder...

     66misos

Hi Misos,
I am not sure, but the La.5 n.26 looks to have preserved the thin red outline, while the white part was repainted silver. An higher resolution scan could help.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
let come back to those 26 IAP Spitfires. It is important that there are photos of different planes and info supporting (also) silver propeller spinner & rudder/tail on planes in Leningrad area.

I wonder if there is publicly available copy of some original VVS document/order clearly saying that tails and spinners had to be painted:
1. strictly white, or
2. strictly silver, or
3. either silver or white (according to the local paint stock? ;))
as a quick recognition sign for all VVS combat planes on Leningrad Front in 1944.

I would not say that P-39 (no. 26 from Finland) tail on the b&w photo bellow is silver. Probably dirty white in shadow, or yellow ???:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Colors/Smerovka2_zpsbe23b63c.png)

    66misos

Hi Misos,
you write Airacobra n.26... do you mean the one in the museum? I've asked Jan Vihonen for more informations.
If you mean the La-5: observing the star, I don't think that the rudder is angulated.
About the P-39 photographed near the flag: to tell the truth, I can't put my hand on the fire about the fact that the tail is silver, but by sure it's not a proof of white. Maybe it could be a less thick layer of white paint than the outline, who knows... Silver and white are easy to be distinguished on a curved surface, but this is a nearly flat one.
A written document would be very interesting, if it can be found.
Just another consideration: if an order 'forbids' something, this could mean that it was widely done before.
Regards
Massimo

Well, if I said silver - it was silver.  Thanks for the link/reminder...

BTW, I didn't use word "nonsense".
Regards,
KL

Hi KL,
sorry. There is nothing personal. I just simply do not thing that "guessing" silver instead of white color in specific cases for front/unit marking, inscriptions etc. in VVS is such nonsense (generally, not only in this case). Next time I will try to be more precise.

Massimo,
this is scan from MBI publication Lavochkin La-5:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/La-5/scan0001b_zps6c497b1e.jpg)
Note another plane behind no. 36 in different position against sun - rudder, star outline and main landing gear cover are brighter than on no. 36.

Another scan  from MBI LA-5, profile:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/La-5/scan0002b_zps1b89bd46.jpg)
of this plane:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/La-5/159IAP_La-5_01_zps88900278.jpg)

Regards,
     66misos

Hi Misos,
the comparison of 36 with the plane on the background confirms that it is more exposed to direct sun. The photo leaves many doubts, the 'silver' spinner looks an illusion due to an effect of the frontal lightening of the plane, and so the 'silver' rudder and numbers could be the effect of a reduced light. On the other side, we can't say that the fuselage is in shadow.
I wonder if there are other photos of the planes of the 159 IAP for a comparison.
About plane 26, I am convinced that the rudder is not white nor angulated. The grey camouflage finish is interesting for this type.
Regards
Massimo

Hi,
I've received some informations on the P-39 in Finnish museum  from Jan Vihonen:


Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
thank for info. So at least those Cobras have comfirmed silver tail or rudder.
Back to that Spitfire:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Spitfire/VVSSpitfire_zpscedc213f.jpg)
Red arrows pointing at little areas brighter than white (or silver?) surrounding. It looks like something was painted on the tail using also white color and finally overpainted by overall white or silver(?) tail.
I speculated a bit - that damaged white/silver color also reminds me painting... I draw there thin black lines to make it more clear ::)

Regards,
   66misos