Sovietwarplanes

Pre-GPW Aviation => Reconaissance, trainers and light bombers, single-engined, of '20s and '30s => Topic started by: Massimo Tessitori on October 24, 2013, 08:36:05 AM



Title: Page of profiles of R-5 and R-Z of Tapani
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on October 24, 2013, 08:36:05 AM
Hi all,
I'm uploading a new page of color drawings of R-5 and R-Z drawn by Tapani at
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/profiles.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/profiles.htm)
Here is one sample:
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/camotransport.jpg)
As usual, each drawing is shown aside reference photos and commented.
Thanks to Tapani for all his recent work on color profiles.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Page of profiles of R-5 and R-Z of Tapani
Post by: learstang on October 24, 2013, 05:45:45 PM
Good - it will be nice to see some profiles of this under-appreciated aeroplane.  It was a real workhorse for the VVS, both before and during the GPW.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Page of profiles of R-5 and R-Z of Tapani
Post by: B_Realistic on October 24, 2013, 10:28:54 PM
I hope to buy one from Rest Models.


Title: Re: Page of profiles of R-5 and R-Z of Tapani
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on October 25, 2013, 12:36:03 PM
Hi,
it is really nice, with its sleek fuselage. Further drawings are arriving.
Rest Models? Is a kit available?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Page of profiles of R-5 and R-Z of Tapani
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on October 28, 2013, 06:03:31 AM
Some just uploaded pages:

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/cccp-glidertow-t.jpg)
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/cccp-glidertow.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/cccp-glidertow.htm)
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/%2Bdis-t.jpg)
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/%2B.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/%2B.htm)
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/15-t.jpg)
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/winterwar3.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/winterwar3.htm)
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Page of profiles of R-5 and R-Z of Tapani
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on October 28, 2013, 07:43:49 PM
Hi,
we need some help with the R-5.
We're trying to understand if some PR-5 airliners were painted orange, as poswar polar aviation planes, or grey, silver or what else.
Here is a sketch for a first idea:

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/polartest.jpg)

Now, is there written anything in the text that allows to establish the colors of the plane?
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/texts/pr-5.jpg)

Thank you for any help.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Page of profiles of R-5 and R-Z of Tapani
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on October 29, 2013, 09:35:04 PM
Hi,
I've found a table in Aviakollectia 12/2008  with the research of Orlov on colors of Soviet planes.  There is a table of colors at pag.4, including an orange and a cream of uncertain use.
Now, if the orange was for polar planes, couldn't the cream be for liners? I know that these colors are introduced in 1940, but perhaps replaced similar ones of the '30s.
The PR-5 are forthemost in a color darker than white, non metallic, and I am not sure it is grey.
The Po-2 in the Chkalow museum is painted cream. Could it be a wide prewar use?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Page of profiles of R-5 and R-Z of Tapani
Post by: KL on October 30, 2013, 05:59:43 AM
We're trying to understand if some PR-5 airliners were painted orange, as poswar polar aviation planes, or grey, silver or what else.

Now, is there written anything in the text that allows to establish the colors of the plane?
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/texts/pr-5.jpg)

It says that nose of the plane was painted in blue and the rest was silver...
Same scheme was used on Stal passenger planes.

Now, if the orange was for polar planes, couldn't the cream be for liners? I know that these colors are introduced in 1940, but perhaps replaced similar ones of the '30s.
...
The Po-2 in the Chkalow museum is painted cream. Could it be a wide prewar use?

Cream was used sometimes for civil planes - IMHO for sport planes, maybe for small passanger planes, not for airliners...

The PR-5 are forthemost in a color darker than white, non metallic, and I am not sure it is grey.

Silver, see above...

Regards,
KL


Title: Re: Page of profiles of R-5 and R-Z of Tapani
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on October 30, 2013, 06:27:21 AM
Hi,
thank you very much for the translation.  Silver and blue is what can be commonly found on profiles.
But...
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/pr-5/List.jpg)
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/pr-5/stal-3f.jpg)
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/pr-5/stal-3.jpg)
in my idea, they can't b silver, apart for some repaintings on the wrecled planes with a red star.
Maybe one could contact the author of the profile to ask if the colors are a guess or he had some more information on the plane depicted.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Page of profiles of R-5 and R-Z of Tapani
Post by: KL on October 30, 2013, 07:52:41 AM
It really depends who was the owner of the particular plane.  Factories painted sport and passenger planes according to customer orders.

SSSR N-70 was most likely as posted text says.

I meant something like this:
(http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/6522/10208042.c5/0_737d0_240a304a_XL.jpg)

photos you posted are interesting, but they need more research...  :)

Regards,
KL   


Title: Re: Page of profiles of R-5 and R-Z of Tapani
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on October 30, 2013, 01:10:37 PM
More research... true, I'm trying to find more informations.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Page of profiles of R-5 and R-Z of Tapani
Post by: KL on October 31, 2013, 04:16:09 AM
IMHO, This PR-5 model looks extremely convincing

(http://www.dishmodels.ru/picture/glr/07/07152/g07152_2780619.jpg)
(http://www.dishmodels.ru/picture/glr/07/07152/g07152_9995594.jpg)
(http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/cw1/pr5/pr5-3.jpg)

(http://www.dishmodels.ru/picture/glr/07/07152/g07152_6960345.jpg)
(http://www.polarpost.ru/forum/download/file.php?id=4036)

Following Stal-2 model IMHO is a better representation than red-cream profile

(http://s3.uploads.ru/PGWoM.jpg)

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/pr-5/stal-3f.jpg)

(http://s3.uploads.ru/tkmey.jpg)



Title: Re: Page of profiles of R-5 and R-Z of Tapani
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on October 31, 2013, 09:11:05 AM
Hi,
the PR-5 is surely a good model, but I don't see absolutely the same shining.
Geust, on his Red Stars 3, says the light color is light blue. I don't know if he has sure sources; it shouldn't be too difficult, we are speaking of hundreds of planes of Aeroflot and similar public companies; anyway il looks fairly credible.
I hope to find more on this topic, who knows if there is any Russian expert of old civilian planes?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Page of profiles of R-5 and R-Z of Tapani
Post by: B_Realistic on October 31, 2013, 07:52:17 PM
@KL
Who made the stunning PR-5?


Title: Re: Page of profiles of R-5 and R-Z of Tapani
Post by: KL on November 01, 2013, 04:27:29 AM
Model was made by Valentin Muchichko.  Muchichko made a number of master models for ICM; his creation is that "overengineered" but excellent TB-3, then Tu-2, SB bomber, Nakajima Ki-27, Heinkel He-70 etc.

R-5 and PR-5 were his last projects for ICM.  models were announced, but never realised.

Muchichko's web page with some of his models and several master models at:
http://savoya.io.ua/album

For example:
(http://m.io.ua/img_aa/medium/0244/85/02448575.jpg)
(http://m.io.ua/img_aa/medium/0244/86/02448677.jpg)
(http://m.io.ua/img_aa/medium/0272/90/02729027.jpg)
(http://m.io.ua/img_aa/medium/1671/95/16719553.jpg)

Another 1930s Soviet passanger plane by Muchichko at
http://www.dishmodels.ru/gshow.htm?mode=P&vmode=T&p=2266&id=22414&tp=g

(http://www.dishmodels.ru/picture/glr/02/02266/g02266_5398352.jpg)


Title: Re: Page of profiles of R-5 and R-Z of Tapani
Post by: learstang on November 01, 2013, 04:50:14 AM
Mr. Muchichko is a great craftsman.  The surface detail on the kits he mastered is always excellent.  I've always wondered if he did the master for the Amodel Ar-2, since the surface detail on that kit is amazing, the best I've ever seen in 1/72nd scale.  Every panel line, every rivet, is there.  I do wish someone would do his R-5's.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Page of profiles of R-5 and R-Z of Tapani
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 01, 2013, 02:06:31 PM
Great craftsman indeed. So, the ICM moulds are made with a master copied with apposite instruments, a traditional technology. No 3D computer modelling and CNC as Chinese firms do.
The Rieman commercial plane is the master built for Amodel, I suppose. So, he never built an R-10, I fear. I hoped that it would have opened the way to such a release.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Page of profiles of R-5 and R-Z of Tapani
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 01, 2013, 11:05:59 PM
Hi,
Another drawing.
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/20dis-t.jpg)
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/20.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/20.htm)
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Page of profiles of R-5 and R-Z of Tapani
Post by: KL on November 02, 2013, 01:19:53 AM
IMHO, "transport" is not the word that describes the role of this aircraft the best.  Profile probably depicts plane that carried stretchers with wounded soldiers - "medical", "first aid", or something similar would be better.   
Regards,
KL


Title: Re: Page of profiles of R-5 and R-Z of Tapani
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 02, 2013, 07:26:40 AM
Hi,
you could be right for this photo, on which the profile is based
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/20foto.jpg)
that looks to bear a narrower version of these containers
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/pod2.jpg)
while it transports newspaper on another photo
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/20fb.jpg).
I'm in doubt for the star on the tail. Tapani didn't trace any star there asking me to complete the missing details; I added it, but now I'm starting to think that a smaller star on the rudder only would have been more appropriated, because the wire is  an obstacle to paint larger stars by mask.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Page of profiles of R-5 and R-Z of Tapani
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 02, 2013, 08:53:54 AM
Well, I've modified it.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Page of profiles of R-5 and R-Z of Tapani
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 04, 2013, 09:46:56 AM
Hi,
here are some variants of the '30s.
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/executives-t.jpg)
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/executives.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/executives.htm)

There is an unclear thing:
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/texts/5215.jpg)
Here it seems to write that only a plane, n.5215, was modified in this way, and that the wreck is its tail. But the division line between fin and rudder isn't the sane, and isn't of a typical R-5. Can the text make some clarity on this?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Page of profiles of R-5 and R-Z of Tapani
Post by: learstang on November 04, 2013, 06:53:45 PM
I can read it says "TSAGI" on the tail, TsAGI being the Central Aerodynamic and Hydrodynamic Institute (which I'm sure you already know, Massimo), so this is probably just a one-off experimental version.  I'm sure someone who reads Russian better than me will be along to translate the text.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Page of profiles of R-5 and R-Z of Tapani
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 04, 2013, 07:48:48 PM
Hi Jason,
thank you for the suggestion.
It would be interesting to see if the text insists that it was the same plane or gives an explanation for the different tail shape.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Page of profiles of R-5 and R-Z of Tapani
Post by: 66misos on November 04, 2013, 07:53:38 PM
Hi Jason,
that Russian text says that in 1932-34 specialists from TSAGI conducted tests how P-5 get out from spinner. And (as usually) shit happend on May 9, 1933...

      66misos


Title: Re: Page of profiles of R-5 and R-Z of Tapani
Post by: KL on November 04, 2013, 07:57:41 PM
Hi Massimo,
last week I guessed about the R-5 "Limuzin" number "20" and I missed...  :(
I checked Maslov's Armada and Kotelnikov's Aviakollektsiya issue and there is no references of that plane being "medevac"!
Only 5 R-5s were converted to carry 2 stretchers under wings in 1937 and that was it.  During the war, I guess (again...) U-2 was a primary medevac planes; U-2 could carry 2-3 wounded soldiers (1-2 stretchers depending on version).  R-5s were used as transports for larger loads (R-5 could lift between 500 and 1000kg) - R-5s supplied partisan units etc.

Back to R-5 "Limuzin" number "20":  both authors agree that it was a wartime modification.  It could be an one of a kind plane... I guess  :).
Kotelnikov says that it was modified in Leningrad overhaul depot in 1941 (check http://lib.rus.ec/b/251378/read ).
There is a photo of this R-5 during overhaul in Armada on page 44.  This photo shows a small rudder red star without any outline.

Regards,
KL    


Title: Re: Page of profiles of R-5 and R-Z of Tapani
Post by: KL on November 04, 2013, 08:50:09 PM
More about wartime  R-5 "Limuzin" number "20":
Maslov calls this plane an "executive transport", Kotelnikov describes it as a "communication plane".  Maslov says that the same plane delivered newspapers in 1944 ( a lot of newspapers, between 500 and 1000kg).

Kotelnikov calls the streamlined underwing containers "kaseta Shcherbakova".  Sometimes it was called "Model 1934".  Two persons could fit in the container, but it was normally used as a cargo space for various loads.

(http://crimso.msk.ru/Images6/AV/AV10-3/13-3.jpg)

Following is a airborne assault container ("desantnaya kabina") which was used to carry (and drop!!!) two soldiers-paratroopers.

(http://crimso.msk.ru/Images6/AM/AM04-8/5-3.jpg)

Anyway, to reffer to the underwing containers as "passanger" is not appropriate in this case.  Also, experiments/record breaking attempts with 16 people in G-61 containers are not related to this plane.

HTH,
KL   

 


Title: Re: Page of profiles of R-5 and R-Z of Tapani
Post by: KL on November 05, 2013, 06:50:44 AM
It's actually "liaison plane", not "communication plane"...
regards,
KL


Title: Re: Page of profiles of R-5 and R-Z of Tapani
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 05, 2013, 06:56:35 AM
Hi Misos
Quote
Hi Jason,
that Russian text says that in 1932-34 specialists from TSAGI conducted tests how P-5 get out from spinner. And (as usually) shit happend on May 9, 1933...
Interesting, but does it say it was the same plane of the side photo?

Hi Konstantin,
Quote
last week I guessed about the R-5 "Limuzin" number "20" and I missed...  Sad
I checked Maslov's Armada and Kotelnikov's Aviakollektsiya issue and there is no references of that plane being "medevac"!
Only 5 R-5s were converted to carry 2 stretchers under wings in 1937 and that was it.  During the war, I guess (again...) U-2 was a primary medevac planes; U-2 could carry 2-3 wounded soldiers (1-2 stretchers depending on version).  R-5s were used as transports for larger loads (R-5 could lift between 500 and 1000kg) - R-5s supplied partisan units etc.
Back to R-5 "Limuzin" number "20":  both authors agree that it was a wartime modification.  It could be an one of a kind plane... I guess  Smiley.
Kotelnikov says that it was modified in Leningrad overhaul depot in 1941 (check http://lib.rus.ec/b/251378/read ).
There is a photo of this R-5 during overhaul in Armada on page 44.  This photo shows a small rudder red star without any outline.
More about wartime  R-5 "Limuzin" number "20":
Maslov calls this plane an "executive transport", Kotelnikov describes it as a "communication plane".  Maslov says that the same plane delivered newspapers in 1944 ( a lot of newspapers, between 500 and 1000kg).
Kotelnikov calls the streamlined underwing containers "kaseta Shcherbakova".  Sometimes it was called "Model 1934".  Two persons could fit in the container, but it was normally used as a cargo space for various loads.
excellent informations indeed, thank you very much!
About the star, the photo on which the profile is based is of 1944, I suppose that the outlines were added, anyway it is possible to make a variant of the profile. I should also  check the thickness and width od the containers.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Page of profiles of R-5 and R-Z of Tapani
Post by: KL on November 05, 2013, 07:45:30 AM
Hi Misos
Quote
Hi Jason,
that Russian text says that in 1932-34 specialists from TSAGI conducted tests how P-5 get out from spinner. And (as usually) shit happend on May 9, 1933...
Interesting, but does it say it was the same plane of the side photo?

No, it is not the same plane.
Rafaelyants Limuzin R-5 photo is related to page 12 text.

R-5 No 5215 was used in expeiments which were supposed to improve R-5's stall recovery charackteristics (Russian "shtopor" is translated as "stall").  This plane had movable rear wing struts - movable struts were supposed to function as rudder during stall recovery.


Title: Re: Page of profiles of R-5 and R-Z of Tapani
Post by: KL on November 05, 2013, 08:17:47 AM
Again correction....  :(
Armada page 44 photo is a similar, not the same plane...
it's profile is drawn here:

(http://www.libma.ru/transport_i_aviacija/aviacija_i_kosmonavtika_1997_03/pic_8.jpg)


Title: Re: Page of profiles of R-5 and R-Z of Tapani
Post by: bbrought on November 05, 2013, 09:14:37 AM
R-5 No 5215 was used in expeiments which were supposed to improve R-5's stall recovery charackteristics (Russian "shtopor" is translated as "stall").  This plane had movable rear wing struts - movable struts were supposed to function as rudder during stall recovery.

Are you sure about that? I am not a native Russian speaker, but since I work as an aeronautical engineer with Russian as my third language I am often asked to translate for my colleagues. I always translated штопор (shtopor) as "spin" and "срывь" (sriv) as a "stall". Going through some test reports that I have from TsAGI they also seem to consistently refer to it this way.

In the text quoted by Massimo, they also seem to use the word штопор for "spin". If I translated that part of the text, it would be something like this (which seems to also imply the aircraft was spinning):

"On 9 May 1933, R-5 No. 5215 suffered an accident. The observer of the experiment, A.V. Tchesalov, jumped out with his parachute in the 17-18th turn of the spin. Pilot M.A. Volkovoinov, hoping to recover the aircraft, abandoned it too close to the ground. His parachute did not have time to inflate and Volkovoinov perished."


Title: Re: Page of profiles of R-5 and R-Z of Tapani
Post by: KL on November 05, 2013, 05:34:44 PM
R-5 No 5215 was used in expeiments which were supposed to improve R-5's stall recovery charackteristics (Russian "shtopor" is translated as "stall").  This plane had movable rear wing struts - movable struts were supposed to function as rudder during stall recovery.

Are you sure about that? I am not a native Russian speaker, but since I work as an aeronautical engineer with Russian as my third language I am often asked to translate for my colleagues. I always translated штопор (shtopor) as "spin" and "срывь" (sriv) as a "stall".

You are right, it looks I have mixed up some aeronautical terms;  it's spin caused by stall...
Thanks for the correction.
KL


Title: Re: Page of profiles of R-5 and R-Z of Tapani
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 05, 2013, 05:55:01 PM
Hi Konstantin,
Quote
Again correction....  Sad
Armada page 44 photo is a similar, not the same plane...
it's profile is drawn here:
Thank you, maybe could be good for another profile.
Is it written how many of these were converted?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Page of profiles of R-5 and R-Z of Tapani
Post by: KL on November 05, 2013, 10:23:42 PM
Hi Konstantin,
Quote
Again correction....  Sad
Armada page 44 photo is a similar, not the same plane...
it's profile is drawn here:
Thank you, maybe could be good for another profile.
Is it written how many of these were converted?

in Aviakollektsiya R-5 issue, same photo (page 83) is commented as: "One of the numerous wartime modifications - liason limuzin"
nothing more...

IMHO, I guess, two planes were probably modified at the same depot:  cockpits are similar, both are silver.  1941-42 fits in general trend when many trainers, civilian, damaged etc. planes were overhauled.  From photographic record we know that some of these overhauled planes were silver.  ;)
HTH,
KL


Title: Re: Page of profiles of R-5 and R-Z of Tapani
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 06, 2013, 09:38:14 PM
Looks likely. I think that they were used far from the front.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Page of profiles of R-5 and R-Z of Tapani
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 11, 2013, 10:12:54 AM
Hi, two new ones from Tapani

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/pr-5/PR5grey-t.jpg)
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/pr-5/PR-5grey.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/pr-5/PR-5grey.htm)

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/camo20-t.jpg)
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/camo20.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/camo20.htm)

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Page of profiles of R-5 and R-Z of Tapani
Post by: KL on November 12, 2013, 08:58:02 AM
Hi Massimo,
a corrrection for your PR-5 profile:

PR-5 was made in significantly smaller numbers than your 1000 planes.  It should be "around 200" or "over 200".  Exact number is not known, probably because after the series production in 1936-37 (when newly made wings were used) some planes were made utilazing parts from old R-5s

Maslov has 200 planes made by Zavod 402 starting from 1936
Kotelnikov has 130 planes.  Supposedly old R-5 were modified to PR-5 by Zavod 241 till 1940
Sobolev has around 225 planes total.  Around 200 were made by Zavod 402 in 1936 and around 25 planes made by Zavod 241 in 1937

HTH,
KL 


Title: Re: Page of profiles of R-5 and R-Z of Tapani
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 12, 2013, 01:09:15 PM
Hi Konstantin,
you are right, Andersson reports 220 PR-5 built in z.241 in 1936-39 and over forty P-5 converted to PR-5 in 1940 (probably the planes in the drawing you've posted, I wonder how their section of fuselage was made). I don't remember where I read the number of 1000, but probably included other variants. Thank you for the warning.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Page of profiles of R-5 and R-Z of Tapani
Post by: KL on November 13, 2013, 02:27:23 AM
... Andersson reports 220 PR-5 built in z.241 in 1936-39 and over forty P-5 converted to PR-5 in 1940 (probably the planes in the drawing you've posted, I wonder how their section of fuselage was made). I don't remember where I read the number of 1000, but probably included other variants.

As far as I remember, 1000 is the total of R-5s that were in civil service (with Aeroflot, various ministries, aeroclubs etc.).  This number includes disarmed unmodified R-5  and R-5 modified in various ways.

Two liaison planes with enclosed cockpits were planes modified for military service during the war, probably in 1941-42.  Both planes have VVS red stars, ie military markings and no registration number.

HTH,
KL


Title: Re: Page of profiles of R-5 and R-Z of Tapani
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 13, 2013, 06:50:44 AM
This is likely.
Best regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Page of profiles of R-5 and R-Z of Tapani
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 13, 2013, 01:56:54 PM
Hi,
we are looking details of the SSS, the rear turret in particular.
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/sssdetails.jpg)
Note the wall-like object behind the shoulders of the gunner. Probably it is a curved ammo box. I wonder if its extension is symmetrical or not behind the gunner.
Has anyone any ideas or images on this?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Page of profiles of R-5 and R-Z of Tapani
Post by: KL on November 13, 2013, 08:25:22 PM
You guys are producing these drawings too fast...
I have quite a few comments/corrections for your previous drawings.  If interested and if you are willing to correct your drawings, I will post my comments...  :)

For example:

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/pr-5/PR5grey-t.jpg)

Quote
The plane was already old at the date of its capture, and shows extensive silver brush repaintings, particularly on the back of the fuselage and around the door, probably intended to protect the wood against exposure to elements.

Being a military plane, the most likely color for its background is AII light grey or similar paint.

This plane was more likely a civilian plane pressed into military service in summer 1941.  The plane was originally silver and had its civilian registration overpainted in gray...  It may have looked like this one:

(http://www.prooptiku.ru/images/imagegallery/pro-raznoe/pro-tehniku/002/r_1.jpg)

HTH,
KL
 


Title: Re: Page of profiles of R-5 and R-Z of Tapani
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 13, 2013, 10:32:32 PM
Hi Konstantin,
it is very possible that the plane was an old civilian plane remarked, but I don't think that silver was its original color.
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/pr-5/pr5greyf1.jpg)
In first place, because silver is overposed to the red star (this should be enough).
In second place, because silver is put in the places of major wearing: the upper surface exposed to the sun and around to the door. We don't see grey in the places where a civil mark was deleted, but all around the plane, also where there are not likely civilian marks.
In third place, PR-5 rarely appear silver on photos. Probably some were silver, but the most of them is in some light non metallic color. Geust writes that the prototype was light blue with dark blue nose and side stripes, so I suppose that the similar planes of Aeroflot were light blue too.
But if this plane came out of factory with such a livery, it was covered with a non metallic color (grey?) before marking it with red stars.
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/pr-5/pr5greyf2.jpg)

Of course, if you have comments or informations on other planes, I'm interested to read them.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Page of profiles of R-5 and R-Z of Tapani
Post by: learstang on November 14, 2013, 01:28:19 AM
Hi,
we are looking details of the SSS, the rear turret in particular.

Note the wall-like object behind the shoulders of the gunner. Probably it is a curved ammo box. I wonder if its extension is symmetrical or not behind the gunner.
Has anyone any ideas or images on this?
Regards
Massimo

Could it be armour or something to protect the gunner from the slipstream?

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Page of profiles of R-5 and R-Z of Tapani
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 14, 2013, 07:12:24 PM
Hi Jason,
I'm sure it is an ammo box. The rail for the ammo passes inside the right part of the strut sustaining the gun.  Just I would know if it was symmetrical.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Page of profiles of R-5 and R-Z of Tapani
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on December 01, 2013, 08:55:48 PM
Hi,
what seems the thing on the leading edge of this plane? Some repair?
(http://lib.rus.ec/i/78/251378/pic_68.jpg)
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Page of profiles of R-5 and R-Z of Tapani
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on December 02, 2013, 05:19:04 PM
Another one.

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/12camo-t.jpg)
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/camo12.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/camo12.htm)

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Page of profiles of R-5 and R-Z of Tapani
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on December 05, 2013, 08:38:29 PM
Another one.
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/winter12-t.jpg)
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/winter%2012.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/winter%2012.htm)
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Page of profiles of R-5 and R-Z of Tapani
Post by: KL on December 05, 2013, 09:28:27 PM
This plane should not have stars on wing tops.  Stars on top wing surfaces were removed at the beginning of the GPW and this R-5 clearly overpainted during the war.

This particular R-5 delivered supplies to partisan units behind the front line.  Underwing containers would be more appropriate than bombs.

HTH,
KL


Title: Re: Page of profiles of R-5 and R-Z of Tapani
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on December 06, 2013, 01:22:52 PM
Hi Konstantin,
where are these informations from? I don't say they are wrong, but the photo is not dated, and occasional use of white paint on R-5 was seen even before the war.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Page of profiles of R-5 and R-Z of Tapani
Post by: KL on December 06, 2013, 08:59:19 PM
(http://lib.rus.ec/i/78/251378/pic_68.jpg)

This photo was published in Kotelnikov's Aviakolektsiya issue on page 85 with following comment:

"Makeshift repaired R-5 on the partisan airfield"

Same photo in Kotelnikov's "Legendary R-5" book on page 103 has similar comment:

"R-5 after the repairs at the partisan airfield"

It's definitively a wartime plane, there were no partisan airfields before the war.  The photo was most likely taken in winter 1942/43 or 1943/44, hence no stars on the upper wing.  Can you tell more about the "occasional use of white paint on R-5 before the war" - when and why?

Regards,
KL



Title: Re: Page of profiles of R-5 and R-Z of Tapani
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on December 06, 2013, 10:04:37 PM
Hi,
ok, a partisan field was in wartime.

Quote
Can you tell more about the "occasional use of white paint on R-5 before the war" - when and why?
This photo is dated february 1936, manoeuvres near Noginsk, Aviacia i Vremiya 3/2010
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/winter/r-5wintersk1936b.jpg)
By the way, it's the subject of the latest profile.
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/white1936-t.jpg)
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/white1936.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/white1936.htm)
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Page of profiles of R-5 and R-Z of Tapani
Post by: KL on December 06, 2013, 11:05:45 PM
That was quick!  no stars and bombs disappeared!!!   :)

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/winter12.jpg)

Are you sure about the observer's machine gun?  I can't see it on the photo...  Those planes usually delivered supplies and on their way back took wounded partisans, machine guns were not critical.

BTW, if you remove (totally unrelated) photos of 4-person desant containers from the "Red 20 transport plane" page, I'll post more info about that plane.  ;)

regards,
KL


Title: Re: Page of profiles of R-5 and R-Z of Tapani
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on December 07, 2013, 06:24:36 AM
Not sure about the mg, but it is harder to remove without having the multilayer version.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Page of profiles of R-5 and R-Z of Tapani
Post by: KL on December 08, 2013, 06:42:43 PM
BTW, if you remove (totally unrelated) photos of 4-person desant containers from the "Red 20 transport plane" page, I'll post more info about that plane.  ;)

not interested to learn more about this plane??

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/20dis-t.jpg)


Title: Re: Page of profiles of R-5 and R-Z of Tapani
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on December 08, 2013, 08:13:32 PM
 If you have informations, please write them, but not under conditions, else it sounds very unkind.


Title: Re: Page of profiles of R-5 and R-Z of Tapani
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on December 16, 2013, 06:53:13 AM
Hi,
3 new profiles
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/highalt-rz-t.jpg)
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/highalt-rz.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/highalt-rz.htm)
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/pr-5/SSSR-L2183-t.jpg)
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/pr-5/SSSR-L2183.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/pr-5/SSSR-L2183.htm)
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/pr-5/SSSR-L2167t.jpg)
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/pr-5/SSSR-L2167.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/pr-5/SSSR-L2167.htm)
The last one is interesting because it seems that it was flown without the engine cowling.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Page of profiles of R-5 and R-Z of Tapani
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on January 10, 2014, 01:43:02 PM
Hi,
another drawing by Tapani.
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/capturedred2-t.jpg)

http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/captured2.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/captured2.htm)

It was not easy to find images of its strange turret and gun pods.

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Page of profiles of R-5 and R-Z of Tapani
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on January 13, 2014, 07:34:43 AM
Hi, another drawing.
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/r-z/17W20-t.jpg)
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/r-z/17W20.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/r-z/17W20.htm)

A Spanish one after the end of the Civil War. Colors are supposed similar to German ones (62, 65, silver).
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Page of profiles of R-5 and R-Z of Tapani
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on January 18, 2014, 02:48:46 PM
Hi,
another one: a PR-5 with military markings, unclear if before or after the war's outbreak.

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/pr-5/VVS3-t.jpg)

http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/pr-5/VVS3.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/pr-5/VVS3.htm)

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Page of profiles of R-5 and R-Z of Tapani
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on January 18, 2014, 04:03:14 PM
An Iranian one, this time.
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/persian-t.jpg)
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/persian.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/persian.htm)
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Page of profiles of R-5 and R-Z of Tapani
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 28, 2015, 10:03:03 PM
Hi,
another colorful drawing of R-5 by Tapani

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/yellowdwg-t.jpg)

http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/yellow.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/yellow.htm)

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Page of profiles of R-5 and R-Z of Tapani
Post by: han9 on November 25, 2017, 12:39:50 PM
R-5 training film

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wu7khv7Xsps