Sovietwarplanes

Hi Stefano,
looks a good work.
About the walls: no walls, only a tubular strut, some thin struts to fix the curved panels from outside. You should see some curved space between the strut and the panels.
About the part under the seat: I don't remember, I think that are tubes only. Have you seen the photos of the rebuilt MiG in factory?
Am I wrong, or the lower part of the wing leaves a gap when glued on the upper one?
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
ok for the walls....now I do riveted joints between the panels....  :( ; I found a picture of the seat and below are only tubes.
For the gap on the wing I thought of a mistake of the kit....instead is correct so! Is seen in a photo of walkaround done by Y. Pasholok.
I thought about doing struts, cloche, floor and seat in A14 (steel grey), the rest of the cockpit in AE9 (light grey) with instrument panels in black; can go or is it better to do everything in AE9 as can be seen in so many kit?

Stefano

Hi Stefano,
it's hard to say, but I have collected something recetly at http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/internal-colors-primers/internal-colors-primers.html (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/internal-colors-primers/internal-colors-primers.html).
Seems that the seat and tubes were painted in an unidentified very dark grey.
Regards
Massimo

Nice work so far, Stefano!

Regards,

Jason

Thanks Jason!
Massimo: struts, cloche and armored seat backrest in AE10, seat in green, floor in A14 and cockpit in AE14....are ok?
The green of the wings which would it be? AII or A19f?
For the lower surfaces I have the Gunze H-45 Light Blue (FS15200) can go well?

Stefano

Hi Stefano,
looks likely, but there are uncertainties.
AE-10: I've found a chip thanks to Anderey Averin, and it is a different color. I would say 'unidentified very dark grey' only.
The wings: the outer part is thought AII green, while the inner one (metallic) is thought A19f that is slightly lighter.
About 15200: no, it's too saturate for my eyes. At present time the blue of the pieces in Veesiveehma depot is much more greyish, I am not even sure it's AII blue. According to a recall of Andrey read on some manual of I-200, the name could be AE-14. Anyway 15200 is too saturate for my eyes. I would go with some compromise shade.
From http://www.oocities.org/capecanaveral/4676/reference/russian.htm (http://www.oocities.org/capecanaveral/4676/reference/russian.htm)
Of course, the color is 70 years old, even if presumably well preserved. I can suppose that, when new, it was somewhat more saturate and less yellowish, but this is an interpretation.
As you see on http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/1940-1941/1940-41.html (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/1940-1941/1940-41.html), I would make some difference between the metal part, that is visibly lighter on bw photos, and wooden part. But I would avoid extreme shades, going on compromise ones. Personally I think that the chips of the color page are reasonable, I would go with something like those.
Regards
Massimo

Thanks Massimo!
If I understand it the color of the cockpit is the FS 25352, the color of the lower surfaces is the FS 35352; I could find evidence only for 25352 (Tamiya XF-23 Light Green/Blue) not for the lower surfaces neither for the 35550 and/or 25466....can you help me?
For the wings I have 6/7 different green and I think I find the two correct (I have a match for AII green (worn): Tamiya XF-58 Olive Green FS 34151).
Another question: the internal sides of rear fuselage is paint in silver?

Stefano

Hi  Stefano,
25352 is the semigloss version of 35352, it's  the same color but the different finish is probably a problem of ageing. The original ones were gloss or semigloss. As said, I would use a less grey-green color.
Hard to say about the matches... I would use a mix of H-45 and XF-23, but I haven't yet tried. As written, I would use a bit lighter and greyish color for the metallic parts.
The inner face of the rear fuselage in Veesiveehma looks unpainted wood at my eye.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
going from memory I thought the first number was the tone instead it is the type of finish.... :-[ in effect the tone is influenced by the type of finish, gloss or semi-gloss is darker than the matt.
Tomorrow I'll try to mix the h-45 with different greens and see what comes out.
I'm trying to replicate the initial details of the rear fuselage....I do not think you see nothing but you never know ;D

Stefano

Hi Stefano,
greens... maybe a little of light grey instead, at least for  the AII blue. Please, post some images of your tests.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
then green (+ H-45) for the cockpit and gray (+ H-45) for the outside?

Stefano

Hi Stefano, try to match the chips in the page of colors, and let's see what it comes out.
Regards
Massimo

Good job so far, Skorpio.
I am also struggling with a MiG-3, from Trumpeter. After a lot of headache, my guess regarding MiG-3 interior colors is the following:

1) The steel pipe structure could be light blue or dark grey (AE-10 as per Massimo's last findings?).
2) The pressed metal frame with Dzus fitting holes and leather pads for the removable panels is light blue, see rear fuselage in Finland and many b/w pictures of dismantled aircraft.
3) The inner face of the engine removable plates is dark (outer green, AE-10 or A-14?), while their supporting frames as per point 2 always appear light.
4) I did not see any pictures of the inner side of the cockpit panels. They could be light blue for better inner brightness, as stated for the Finland relic, but they also could be AE-10, A-14 or green, if this is the color of the engine panels.
5) The rear bay behind the seat could well have been camouflage green. But what about factory-painted white MiGs? The logic suggests it is also white, for better concealing. But most of the pictures seem to show dark paint. Camouflage green does not seem logical to me, maybe "interior" grey?
6) In the relic picture here (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1522.0) the trim wheel appears medium grey (A-14?), while structure is dark (AE-10?)
7) Now to the seat armor plate. Here (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1522.0) and here (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1522.30) it seems to me really green. The black paint could be primer, in facts rust is only on black areas.
8) Seat, floor and control column seem to me unpainted aluminium, or clear varnished as no traces of other paint is visible. See above pictures of relic and also here (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1601.0). This does not seem illogical to me, because at least the seat and floor are subject to paint chipping.

I suppose that later examples, as white factory-painted ones, could have more standardized and "grey" interior (mainly A-14 with AE-10 steel frame?) with unpainted "wearing" parts, but these are only assumptions.
Any suggestion? Skorpio and I are eager to close the fuselage halves!

Thanks Otto!
I try to answer your questions:
1) I will do my structure in AE10
2) I'll do all the cockpit area in AE14, except the lower part of seat (green), floor (green) and cloche (aluminum)
3) if I have translated well, I do not care because I will not make the engine exposed
4) I'll do the cockpit in AE14....including the panels ;D Massimo says it's OK
5) I don't find the photo but there is one where you see the inside unpainted wood
6) sorry, with the translator does not understand the question :(
7) I will the seat armor plate in A14....
I did some tests for the color of the cockpit and the lower parts....is the best photo I've done....

(http://www.modellismopiu.net/m+gallerie/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=1015624)

down the color for the lower surfaces at the top for the cockpit

Stefano

My suggestions for MiG-3 interior, based on few fragments from Finland that I am familiar with and colours of two planes preserved at le Bourget (I-153 is relevant because it was made in the same Factory No 1 which later made MiG-3s):

-  I-153 steel-tube fuselage frame (made in 1939) is gray-green, Yak-3 (made in 1944 by Factory 192) is dark gray.
-  MiG-3 wooden wing interior is silver.  LaGG-3 (made in 1941-42 by Factory 21) rear wooden fuselage interior is silver
-  I-153 engine cowling interior is gray A-14 (as prescribed in 1937!), Yak-3 engine cowling interior is unpainted brown-yellow ALG-1 zinc chromate.
-  Yak-3 cockpit interior is gray A-14 (as prescribed in 1937!) including lower part of the seat (parachute bowl??)
-  I-153 steel back armor plate is (yellowish) green.  Several other green back armor plates are known from various wrecks


To skorpio62 (are you 51 ???)
Few details that are obviously wrong:
-  lower part of the seat can't be green - it was made of dur-alluminium, nothing to do with steel back armour
-  floor can't be green
I would suggest gray A-14 for both

According to overhaul and repair manuals, Light blue was allowed as a replacement for Gray A-14.  This may explain why Finish MiG-3 has flaps interior and cockpit sides light blue

HTH,
KL

Hi all,
the inside of the rear fuselage of this one looks unpainted wood
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/internal-colors-primers/mig3rearfus.jpg)
while the wing inside is silver
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/internal-colors-primers/mig3wing.jpg)
The tube strut is very dark, but not as dark as the black handle. I've hypothized it was AS-10, but I've found a chip of it and it looks not the same color. I've thought that it was of the same green than the outside for years, but it seems not so.
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/internal-colors-primers/mig3seatbw.jpg)
Here the seat backrest shows very dark grey around the headest, that looks the part where the paint is best preserved, while the green looks underlying. We see also blackish tubes and a lower part of the seat that is without paint (grey for someone).
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/internal-colors-primers/mig3rearplate.jpg)
On the bw photo from the manual, the lower part of the seat appears painted with a light color.The only MiG-3 seat showing a light painting is this oddity (greenish zinc chromate?).
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/internal-colors-primers/mig3supposedseat.jpg)
The inside of the panels of the weapons and engine bays appear as the outside or slightly darker. This is not the shade expected from A-14, that is lighter, so I think it could be the same dark grey of the seat and tubes (as a second choice, green as the outside)
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/mig3/bar652.jpg)
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/mig3/sidepan.jpg)
Of course, this doesn't necessarily mean that all the MiG-3s were painted the same way.
Regards
Massimo

Skorpio/Stefano, in my point N?6 I meant that in the picture of the MiG-3 cockpit wreckage the double trim wheel (il doppio volantino  ;)) appears medium grey, lighter than the frame. Which color did you use to reply AE-14 light blue?
Massimo, a rear picture of the same seat (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1522.0) shows it entirely green, with no gray traces. On the front side, it's true that the zone around the headrest should be the best preserved, but the shape of the stains still seem to me as grey is an undercoat.
Regarding the rear bay of the cockpit which in the Finnish museum wreck appears green as the exterior (where the radio boxes are placed, not the inside which is unpainted wood), are there any suggestions about the factory-painted white MiG-3s? Here (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/mig3/kuybyshev.html) the interior color appears dark.

Hi all,
@ KL to choose colors to use I had spoken with Massimo, in previous speeches of this post, and I decided on these....perhaps the seat armor plate is green; I'm 51 of age and 62 year of birth.
@ otto ok now I understand (you are italian?) I did dark gray (like the struts) I saw that some parts were black (like the top of the cloche) that remain in the view'll scratch with metal color; AE14 is obtained with 10 parts of Gunze H-45 plus 4 parts H-332 (light aircraft gray), for the cockpit is the same mix with a small amount of Tamiya XF-61 (dark green), I want also try other (RLM76 + H45) also changing the green (XF-58 olive green).
@ Massimo you see the picture with the color test? What do you think?

Stefano

This can not be "Unpainted wood".  This is a plane not a piece of furniture.   ::)

All wooden surfaces were protected against moisture.  Especially in MiG-3 because its wooden structure was glued with caseine glue. 
What do you think; Why did they paint wing interior in silver??  just for fun, because workers who made wing liked silver and those who made fuselage simply decided they could leave fuselage interior unpainted?

I see there part in yellow nitro putty and further (or deeper into the fuselage) dirty silver.

Regards,
KL

KL, yelow nitro putty is outside where the wood was, as far as I know, covered with fabric. The interior could have been unpainted but protected with clear varnish, like WW1 Albatros fuselages.
I am not an expert, but it seems to me that MiG-3s were built from sub-assemblies coming, if not from different factories, at least from different sections of the same factory. As a consequence we have dark grey or light blue tubular frames, light blue frames for outer panels, the latter have dark inner color, the seat armor is green...

Hi Stefano,
Looks likely. I would make the greenish color a bit lighter, and I would use it for metallic outside surfaces too.

Hi Otto
Could be, bw photos don't help to decide between green and dark grey.

Hi Konstantin,
If you love to think that the inside of the fuselage shown in the photo is silver, please do. You are the owner of your opinions. But if you say this thing to anyone, please show him this photo as a good example of silver painting, just to allow him to make his mind.
Why was silver paint utilized for wood and fabric? To protect them against UV rays. To protect from moisture, any protective paint is good, including transparent one. So it LOOKS unpainted just as I've written.
If it is something else, I would hear this from someone that has seen the real piece.
Regards
Massimo

I am an expert; I saw with my own eyes some of the MiG-3 fragments others are posting on this thread.

Yes, Mig-3 was built from sub-assemblies.  There were no "different factories" - it was made by one factory.  I can't see how these two facts relate to the supposed variability in colours.


It's so amusing to read this.  Could you honestly say where did you first find about silver and UV rays?  Did you find about that in Pilawskii's research, or maybe in my posts few years ago?

BTW, what UV rays inside MiG-3's wooden wing or inside LaGG-3's rear fuselage?
Regards,
KL

 

Hi Konstantin,
I remember some other person saying something similar.

Sorry to say that your arrogance is unacceptable. Please consider this as a first warning.

Regards
Massimo

Hi,
From Orlov, Aviakollectia 12/2008, pag.3


Regards
Massimo

Hi,
on the net I saw that some modeller puts two orange piping, one on right and one on left, in the low side of perimeter of the cockpit....someone tell me what is this? ;D

Stefano

HI Stefano

which make of photo etch you using on this build?

does not look like Eduard, is this Part? 

neat work on the build
and welcome to the site
cheers
Troy

Hi,
thanks Troy, the photo etch is from ACE not Eduard ;)

Stefano

Hi all,
I'm doing the piping of the cockpit but I don't understand how they are made some pipes.
Left side: the compressed air bottle, chargeable from a hole on the side panel (blue arrows), how is connected with the tap on the strut....as the red line? I do not know what is indicated by black arrows and one with the green arrow is a metallic plate fixed to the strut?

(http://www.modellismopiu.net/m+gallerie/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=1016575)

Or so: charging line in yellow and distribution line in red (connected with the "mistery tool")?

(http://www.modellismopiu.net/m+gallerie/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=1016577)

Same question for the oxygen line .... so okay?

(http://www.modellismopiu.net/m+gallerie/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=1016573)

Last question: these two orange hoses, seen on some kits, are real or fantasy?

(http://www.modellismopiu.net/m+gallerie/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=1016567)

Stefano

Hi Stefano,
in the first drawing, the orange pipe shows thebottle connected to the regulator and filter.
The thing indicated in green is the inside of a footstep, closed by tissue.
The thing indicated in lack is an hand pump for fuel injection at starting.
About oxygen systen: I don't know any more. Try to have a look to other planes as the La-7. The oxygen system could have not been installed on very early planes.
About the yellow pipe; at what level is it according to the kits?
Regards
Massimo

Stefano, here (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/mig3/yuri-rr/left-side.htm) and here (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/mig3/personnel.html) are pictures showing the cap for compressed air refuelling.

Hi all,
Massimo today a friend lent me a book about the MiG-3. ...WOOOOWWWW!!! Congratulations I find it very very well done!
So well done that I have already removed some doubts ;D like the yellow pipe: is vent line of the fuel tanks....I read that you don't know if it was also about Mig of the war time, so don't think I replicate it ::)
Thanks otto, I also saw that on the right side there is a small door. .. is for oxygen.
I did find two schemas.
The first is for left side in red is piping for air compress: from charging hole to bottle, from bottle to regulator/filter, from regulator/filter towards the engine; in blue is piping for fuel: from the hand pump to engine

(http://www.modellismopiu.net/m+gallerie/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=1016719)

The second is for right side in green is piping for radio cables: from dynamotor to box on rear fuselage (small cable), from box to reciever (large cable), from reciever to control panel (small cable); in blue is piping for oxygen: from charging hole to bottle, from bottle to regulator, from regulator to mask attack (I saw the pictures of the cockpit of a Lavochkin)

(http://www.modellismopiu.net/m+gallerie/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=1016721)

are right or wrong?

Last thing: the fuel tanks, that I thought were blacks, instead they are in gloss yellow?

Stefano

Hi Stefano,
the venting pipe of the tanks of the rebuilt MiG is uncorrect, but it seemed unkind to write it after they helped me. It doesn't appear on the back deck on original photos, I think it ends into a small hole on the right side of the fuselage  under the rear part of the canopy, outside.
Yellow tanks... it is likely (apart when they were covered by self-sealing rubber); on some photos they appear light , on other ones are black.
Regards
Massimo

Hi
Ok for the color of the fuel tanks, but the schemas for the pipes go well?
By certain drawings (one on your book) it seems that the vent pipe is not visible because under the floor ???
Stefano

Hi,
Under the rear deck you mean? Probably it was so.
The cutaway shows a pair of pipes, but none seems to start from the fuel system. So, seems that it doesn't appear or that is not correctly represented.
Regards
Massimo

Hi
Massimo I have not explained well, I mean the pipes of the last two drawings (radio, air compress, oxygen....)

Stefano

Hi,
what can I say? From the drawing it seems that the cable to the radio deck should pass for behind it, and other cables should be fixed to the tube strut, not to pass at mid air.
Regards
Massimo

Hi all,
I'm finishing the cockpit and resolved the doubts about piping I have another question....yes another one.... ;D
The arming handles on the instrument panel are two or three? In some drawing are three (even here in the cockpit page) in other are two (the book of Massimo and drawing taken from the aircraft's technical manual).
On the sides the handles are the same in all designs (arming the ShKAS) but the central handle? If there is where fixed? To panel?

Stefano

Hi Stefano,
the central handle is for the UBS. Usually it was between the ShKAS.
Some variants of MiG-3 had two UBS or two ShWAK instead of three machine guns in the nose.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
so should I put? Is attached to the panel?

Stefano

Hi,
It is connected to a rod passing through a small hole on the front plate, on the left of the gunsight.
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/mig3/cockfor.jpg)
Regards
Massimo

Hi all,

I went ahead and I detailed fuselage interior

(http://www.modellismopiu.net/m+gallerie/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=1018411)

(http://www.modellismopiu.net/m+gallerie/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=1018413)

(http://www.modellismopiu.net/m+gallerie/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=1018415)

and I started the painting of the cockpit

(http://www.modellismopiu.net/m+gallerie/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=1018417)

(http://www.modellismopiu.net/m+gallerie/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=1018419)

(http://www.modellismopiu.net/m+gallerie/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=1018421)

(http://www.modellismopiu.net/m+gallerie/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=1018427)

(http://www.modellismopiu.net/m+gallerie/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=1018429)

the instrument panel, the arming handles are made of copper rod

(http://www.modellismopiu.net/m+gallerie/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=1018425)

fuel tank with piping to wing tanks, air compress bottle (black, made from a rocket in 1/35) and oxygen bottle (shaped by a piece of sprue)

(http://www.modellismopiu.net/m+gallerie/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=1018423)

Stefano

Very nice work, Stefano!

Regards,

Jason

Hi Stefano,
interesting work indeed. A lot of good details.
Regards
Massimo

Great job, Strefano.
I am also buildig a MiG-3, from Trumpeter, and I am also finishing the cockpit. I hope I will post pictures soon.

Thanks to all ... I also hope to be able to make better pictures. ... ;D

Stefano