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Print Page - Chips of AMT-1, A-21m, A-28m and other paints
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Sovietwarplanes

Great Patriotic War Aviation => Painting standards during the GPW => Topic started by: Massimo Tessitori on November 16, 2013, 07:04:09 AM



Title: Chips of AMT-1, A-21m, A-28m and other paints
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 16, 2013, 07:04:09 AM
Hi,
I've received some interesting documents from Andrey Averin. They make some light on some controversal shades.
Here is a page from a manual that gives the limit shades of AMT-1
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/averin/on-amt-1.jpg)
here is a scan of a page of chips referred from the manual.
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/averin/AMT-1av.jpg)
Note the strong variability: so, both the greyish shade and the brownish one are acceptable matches (even if the greyest shade looks deteriorated)

Here another manual gives the limit shades of A-21m and A-28m
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/averin/on-A21m-and-A28m.jpg)
and here are the limit shades of A-21m
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/averin/a-21mav.jpg)
again, a strong variability including greenish shades
and A-28m
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/averin/a-28m.jpg)
that are consistent with the blue shade of AMT-7 and A-28g, and not with the duck egg blue of the Nakrasok Alboom that is presumably altered or perhaps indicative of a stronger variability.
Regards
Massimo




Title: Re: Chips of AMT-1, A-21m, A-28m and other paints
Post by: KL on November 16, 2013, 09:42:56 AM
Interesting. Very, very, interesting and useful...

It says that:  "Colour of the paint after drying should corespond to or should be located around the following numbers in the collection of colour etalons".

For AMT-1 this means 2 colours: light brown and yellowish gray.

Variations were allowed between colours to the left and to the right of the number 924 and to the left and to the right of the number 935.  Akanihin wrote about this at scalemodels.ru forum few years ago.    


Title: Re: Chips of AMT-1, A-21m, A-28m and other paints
Post by: 66misos on November 16, 2013, 01:57:08 PM
Hi KL,
do those two chips for each color represent:
1. two possibilities,
or
2. boudaries where (but not beyond) color should be?

Regards,
    66misos



Title: Re: Chips of AMT-1, A-21m, A-28m and other paints
Post by: richard.kiss on November 16, 2013, 03:17:58 PM
Dear Massimo,

thanks for sharing this very interesting info.

I would like to know what kind of manual is it?
Two dates shown on first picture. When was this book printed?


Title: Re: Chips of AMT-1, A-21m, A-28m and other paints
Post by: learstang on November 16, 2013, 05:52:19 PM
Yes, Massimo, very interesting indeed!  Thank you for posting!  I wonder if this manual is available on the Internet for download.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Chips of AMT-1, A-21m, A-28m and other paints
Post by: KL on November 17, 2013, 12:56:57 AM
Two dates shown on first picture. When was this book printed?

It looks that the book was printed in 1966 (or later) and that it refers to Technical Requirements issued in 1956.  In 1966 AMT colours were out of production for 15-20 years, but obviously the requirements were still valid.

do those two chips for each color represent:
1. two possibilities,
or
2. boundaries where (but not beyond) color should be?

Actually both:
Etalon 924 is "gryazno pesochnaya" (dirty sand) for 1941 experimental AMT-1
Etalon 935 is "svetlo korichnevaya" (light brown) for 1943 3-colour camouflage scheme utilized on Il-2s and bombers

Each colour was allowed to vary between the left and right chip.

HTH,
KL


Title: Re: Chips of AMT-1, A-21m, A-28m and other paints
Post by: KL on November 17, 2013, 01:22:46 AM
Note the strong variability: so, both the greyish shade and the brownish one are acceptable matches (even if the greyest shade looks deteriorated)

Here another manual gives the limit shades of A-21m and A-28m
...
that are consistent with the blue shade of AMT-7 and A-28g, and not with the duck egg blue of the Nakrasok Alboom that is presumably altered or perhaps indicative of a stronger variability.

Thanks for posting this!  A mystery has been solved.

I would not dismiss "Albom Nakrasok", and I don's see any need to stress how chips are deteriorated or altered.  Because they are not deteriorated/altered.  Those chips were protected from UV light, from heat, moisture and other factors that could have caused deterioration.

Some of Albom Nakrasok chips are not perfect - simply, cardboard is not the best medium to spray oil paint - oil from some of those oil paint chips actually penetrated through the cardboard and stained paper pages.  Few other chips (AMT-4 for example) got glued to the protective vellum page.  IMHO, they are still extremely close to their original colour.  Anyway, they are not  deteriorated as EP writes.

You may say that some "Albom" chips are not representative...  Maybe whoever made A-28g chip didn't mix paint enough or didn't clean spraygun?

"Albom Nakrasok" AMT-1 chip is very close to the right, darker 924 chip.

Regards,
KL
 


Title: Re: Chips of AMT-1, A-21m, A-28m and other paints
Post by: learstang on November 17, 2013, 02:16:15 AM
Looking at these chips, it still seems that a tan colour with some grey in it is a reasonable choice for AMT-1 or A-21m.  That's probably the colour I'll continue to use.  Still, there's a lot of variation for this "colour".

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Chips of AMT-1, A-21m, A-28m and other paints
Post by: KL on November 17, 2013, 05:40:43 AM
Looking at these chips, it still seems that a tan colour with some grey in it is a reasonable choice for AMT-1 or A-21m.  That's probably the colour I'll continue to use.  Still, there's a lot of variation for this "colour".

Light brown 935 makes a lot of sense for 3-colour scheme.  It is also similar to other colours called "light brown".
Real surprize is etalon 627.  Nothing in common with 935.  On my monitor it is green; it can't be called "light brown".  It looks as lighter version of 4BO or AMT-4.

Regards,
KL


Title: Re: Chips of AMT-1, A-21m, A-28m and other paints
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 17, 2013, 08:19:27 AM
Hi all,
I'll ask for references of the scans that Andrey has sent at my next emailing.

The possibility of variations between the batches of paint, or due to the storage, to the mixing etc are well known to who utilizes Humbrol paints (and possibly of other firms too).
Many colors are indicated between two numbers with two chips each, that is between four chips.
It is also interesting to see that AMT-1 and A-21m have different specifications. I wonder if this is due to some difference in pigments or to a more yellowish medium for oil enamels.

About the calibration of the scanner or camera of who takes the images  and the monitor of who sees them: it would be good to buy some identical postcards with some identical photos, to include one in the scan and to send copies to who is interested to the shades: this would allow  him to compare the postcard appearing on the scan aside the chips to the real postcard he has, to detect errors of calibration. It would be much less expensive than to buy a FS catalogue for anyone.
Of course, this can function only if who takes the images is willing to do it again including the postcard in the shot.

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Chips of AMT-1, A-21m, A-28m and other paints
Post by: learstang on November 17, 2013, 05:22:50 PM
Looking at these chips, it still seems that a tan colour with some grey in it is a reasonable choice for AMT-1 or A-21m.  That's probably the colour I'll continue to use.  Still, there's a lot of variation for this "colour".

Light brown 935 makes a lot of sense for 3-colour scheme.  It is also similar to other colours called "light brown".
Real surprize is etalon 627.  Nothing in common with 935.  On my monitor it is green; it can't be called "light brown".  It looks as lighter version of 4BO or AMT-4.

Regards,
KL

Konstantin, it looks green on my monitor also.  It is a surprise.  Certainly Orlov doesn't mention this.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Chips of AMT-1, A-21m, A-28m and other paints
Post by: learstang on November 17, 2013, 05:48:35 PM
Massimo, regarding A-21m, Orlov mentions that it had a yellowish varnish.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Chips of AMT-1, A-21m, A-28m and other paints
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 17, 2013, 07:08:40 PM
Hi,
Looking at Akan colors, it seems that it was AMT-1 to have a more greenish tint than A-21m.
Perhaps this is due to the fact that there are yellowish, blackish and reddish pigments; a small lack of the reddish one can move this borderline color into greens.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Chips of AMT-1, A-21m, A-28m and other paints
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 17, 2013, 10:39:09 PM
Hi,
I think that this description, always from Andrey, contains the composition of some prewar colors. Is it possible to obtain any useful information from this text?

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/averin/prewarcomposition.jpg)

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Chips of AMT-1, A-21m, A-28m and other paints
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 18, 2013, 06:27:15 AM
Hi,
another table posted by Kari Lumppio on scalemodels.ru
(http://s4.postimg.org/5kjhcb9x9/tabl_21_tsveta_nitro_5134_et_5133.jpg)
describes AII colors and their postwar matches.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Chips of AMT-1, A-21m, A-28m and other paints
Post by: KL on November 18, 2013, 06:53:26 AM
Many colors are indicated between two numbers with two chips each, that is between four chips.

I found Akanihin's explanation.  It's an excerpt from an official document:

" Нормирование цвета эмалей и красок": "Нормирование цвета эмали или краски двумя эталонами (при этом в нормативном документе указываются два номера картотеки) означает пределы оттенка, в которых может находиться цвет выпускаемого лакокрасочного материала...Картотека дает возможность ОТК (Отделу Технического Контроля) предприятия контролировать поступающие на завод эмали и краски по цвету и при их несоответствии эталонам браковать лакокрасочную продукцию и возвращать её изготовителю. Цвет должны проверять при дневном отражённом свете, визуально сравнивая высушенную накраску лакокрасочного материала с соответствующим эталоном картотеки или двумя эталонами, определяющими допускаемое отклонение по цвету."

It says that when colour is standardized with two numbers shades between the numbers are allowed.  For AMT-1 it means all colours between light brown and sand, contrary to what I said few days ago.   ;D

It looks that the left chip is actually the real paint surface.  The right chip seems to be chip's back - paint seen through the plastic film.

let us know what Averin says.

Regards,
KL
 


Title: Re: Chips of AMT-1, A-21m, A-28m and other paints
Post by: KL on November 18, 2013, 07:53:45 AM
Akanihin's comment on Albom chips:

В "Альбоме..." размещены образцы, попавшие в "вилочные допуски". Они не обязательно могут быть точной копией одного из пары эталонов. Скорее всего они будут посередине допускаемых отклонений. Но там такой малюсенький зазорчик!!!


Title: Re: Chips of AMT-1, A-21m, A-28m and other paints
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 18, 2013, 08:32:09 AM
That means...


Title: Re: Chips of AMT-1, A-21m, A-28m and other paints
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 18, 2013, 05:30:22 PM
Quote
In the "Album ..." are samples that fall into the "fork-tolerance." They may not necessarily be an exact copy of one of a pair of standards. Most likely they will be the middle of the allowed tolerances. But there's a tiny zazorchik!


Title: Re: Chips of AMT-1, A-21m, A-28m and other paints
Post by: KL on November 19, 2013, 03:12:58 AM
That means...

Is your post a question or a conclusion? ???


Title: Re: Chips of AMT-1, A-21m, A-28m and other paints
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 19, 2013, 07:01:06 AM
It was a request of translation, as for previous pages, particularly the names of the AII colors in the second page I've posted.


Title: Re: Chips of AMT-1, A-21m, A-28m and other paints
Post by: KL on November 19, 2013, 08:36:08 AM
It was a request of translation, as for previous pages, particularly the names of the AII colors in the second page I've posted.

(http://s4.postimg.org/5kjhcb9x9/tabl_21_tsveta_nitro_5134_et_5133.jpg)

Nitro enamel NTs-5134
(former AII (k) and AII (p) second cover)

Alluminium
Beidge No 965
White No 802, 803
Red No 10, 11
Olive No 966
Ivory No 900
Light Cream No 962, 963
Light Pistachio No 967
Lilac-gray No 964
Tobacco No 861

I don't think this helps... those are not VVS WWII colours.  May explain origin of "Tractor Green" - No 967  ;)


Title: Re: Chips of AMT-1, A-21m, A-28m and other paints
Post by: bbrought on November 19, 2013, 01:40:16 PM
Quote
In the "Album ..." are samples that fall into the "fork-tolerance." They may not necessarily be an exact copy of one of a pair of standards. Most likely they will be the middle of the allowed tolerances. But there's a tiny zazorchik!

The last sentence: "But there's such a tiny little gap!", meaning the tolerance is small.


Title: Re: Chips of AMT-1, A-21m, A-28m and other paints
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 19, 2013, 09:45:37 PM
Thank you Konstantin,
in fact they don't seem for military planes.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Chips of AMT-1, A-21m, A-28m and other paints
Post by: KL on November 20, 2013, 06:34:53 AM
The table was made in 1960es, after the new paint coding system was introduced.  Some of the paints in the table are definitively military paints.  Protective colour is mentioned in two groups. Group below the former AII paints is interesting:

Nitro enamel NTs-5133M

Light Blue No 952, 953
Green No 741-760
Light Brown No 924, 935
Light Gray-Blue No 842, 843
Gray-Blue No 820, 823
Dark Gray No 823, 827
Black No 861

It may not look like a group of military paints, but those are AMT paints.  Standard numbers are identical to the numbers in table provided by Averin:

AMT-7 = Light Blue No 952, 953
AMT-4 = Green No 741-760
AMT-1 = Light Brown No 924, 935
AMT-16 = Light Gray-Blue No 842, 843
AMT-11 = Gray-Blue No 820, 823
AMT-12 = Dark Gray No 823, 827
AMT-6 = Black No 861


IMHO, AII paints listed in this table are AII paints that remained in production and use after WWII.  AII Red and AII White were used for red star markings on planes painted in AGT paints, AII Aluminium was used for UV protection (as you already know from 2008 Aviakollektsiya) on Yak-12s and other fabric covered postwar planes.

I have no idea what "AII Lilac" and "AII Pistachio" were used for. ???  Might be related to Nadia Bukhanova ???

HTH,
KL


Title: Re: Chips of AMT-1, A-21m, A-28m and other paints
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 20, 2013, 01:20:37 PM
Yes, I knew of the change of name, but I was hoping in new informations on AII wartime ones because AMT are already well known. Who knows if that olive is the same of AII Z? Well, anyway we can't be sure.
In the meanwhile, here are scans of the covers of the manuals where Andrey found some of his documents.
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/averin/covers.jpg)
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Chips of AMT-1, A-21m, A-28m and other paints
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 20, 2013, 03:32:14 PM
Hi all,
some other chips from Andrey.
The first one is for AE-10 (whose only known use is for the inside of seaplanes below the water line) and the chromatically identical DD-118. Not any very dark grey, then.

(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/averin/AE10-dd118.jpg)

Just for a comparison, the better known A-14f.

(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/averin/a-14f.jpg)


Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Chips of AMT-1, A-21m, A-28m and other paints
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on September 20, 2017, 09:58:11 AM
Hi all,
after a request of Misos, I've restored the links to the images of the chips and documents from Averin in this topic.
I know that there are still many broken links to the site in the forum.
If you have interest into the restoration of some particular link, please ask. Else, you could find it replacing 'mig3.sovietwarplanes' with 'massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages' into the url.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Chips of AMT-1, A-21m, A-28m and other paints
Post by: 66misos on September 20, 2017, 09:44:24 PM
Hi Massimo,
Thank you for correction of the links to pictures.
So we have etalons for light brown and light blue now. It would be nice to have the same etalons with two colors and limited values of each one also for green AMT-4 and greys AMT-11 and AMT-12.
I have browsed quite a lot Russian pages via yandex.ru, but did not find anything.
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Chips of AMT-1, A-21m, A-28m and other paints
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on September 21, 2017, 08:33:16 PM
Hi Misos,
I've the chip for AMT-4.
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/averin/amt-4.jpg)

I can ask for other scans, even if I don't trust scans too much as a source for colors. A white chip and a black one inserted in aren't enough, one should add other known colors as a page of FS-595 to be sure of what he is seeing.
The main information given is that AMT-1 and A-21m have to be different colors, while AMT-7 and A-28 m have to be the same.

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Chips of WWII VVS paints
Post by: 66misos on September 23, 2017, 01:45:42 PM
Hi Massimo,

thank you for uploaded chips. I know, those chips are not dogmatic, but they give quite good idea about shades and that there was no one 100% correct shade, but there was intervals of shades (two intervals of two colors), so shades could vary a bit.

Could you, please, ask also for scans of AMT-11 and AMT-12. Then we will have basically full portfolio.
Plus, it would be interesting to see how close were the darkest AMT-11 and lightest AMT-12, e.g. "low contrast" combination and lightest AMT-11 to the darkest AMT-12, e.g. "high contrast" combination.

Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Chips of AMT-1, A-21m, A-28m and other paints
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on September 23, 2017, 10:26:48 PM
Hi Misos, I've asked Andrey, he sent many documents, but the chips of AMT-11 and 12 are those of Nakrasok, I think that you have already seen them.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Chips of AMT-1, A-21m, A-28m and other paints
Post by: 66misos on September 24, 2017, 09:42:49 AM
Hi Massimo,

I have this scan from Albom Nakrasok:
(http://scalemodels.ru/images/2017/02/1487084416_IMG_0005.jpg)
There is one chip per color, AMT-11 and AMT-12 are quite different there.

According to:
(http://modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1337015)
AMT-11 is between 820 and 823, while AMT-12 is between 824 and 827. Note - each color has approved variation between three numbers/steps/levels(?), but minimal difference between AMT-11 and AMT-12 is only one number/step/level - 823 vs. 824.

Compare it to another one number/step/level difference: A-21m is between 627 and 628, or AMT-7 is between 952 and 953. Following the same logic then AMT-11 of 823 should be quite similiar to AMT-12 of 824, making minimal contrast.
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Chips of AMT-1, A-21m, A-28m and other paints
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on September 24, 2017, 09:04:29 PM
Hi Misos,
this is an interesting consideration. I'll try to insist with Andrey.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Chips of AMT-1, A-21m, A-28m and other paints
Post by: righidan on September 24, 2017, 11:44:29 PM
Dear Massimo,
   thank you so much for restoring the links to this most important topic.
   About Kartoteka, alias TU 6-10-1449-XX where XX is the year of print, like 92 for 1992, as long as I understand it, it is different from the like of FS 595.
   In a single page you have the same color, but one is printed matt and the other is gloss, so it can be used with paints of different smoothness, and nearby colors are often similar but not always: 612 and 613 are very different browns.
   You can see some colors of the Kartoteka, unluckily not all of them, at: http://lakokraska-ya.ru/ral , a site reported by Kari Lumppio some time ago, and have an idea of its structure.
   If you can be so kind to ask Mr. Averin for some scan, I beg you to ask him for a scan of the BACK of the chips: in the back there should be, handwritten in the older ones and printed in the more recent ones, the values of X, Y and Z, which are the determinants of the color shade according to the Commission Internationale de l'Éclairage (CIE) 1931 standard.
   Actually the CIE standard has changed, but there are many programs that convert the old values to the new ones, and while the color chips may have changed with time the numbers have remained the same: this is a standard after all!
   Having the correct values will make possible to compare the colors with other standards like FS 595 or RAL, to verify how correct are the modelling colors in production now, and even to reproduce them accurately using colors of today.
   Mr. Averin has always been a precious source of information, and we must remember that he has been the first to publish, in the first issue of the now defunct magazine “MIG”, in 1994, an accurate account of Russian colors in Russian language.
   I would finally ask forum members, after Photobucket went insane, which image hosting sites they have found reliable.
Best regards
Daniele


Title: Re: Chips of AMT-1, A-21m, A-28m and other paints
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on September 25, 2017, 08:03:06 AM
Hi Daniele,
your considerations are very interesting. I've passed your request to Andrey, I hope that he will write the numbers on the back of the chips.
I didn't know the name of the chips collection, you have made things more clear for me.
About the link, my McAfee has given some warning.
I am very interested about criteria and methods of the CIE about colors. Where can I learn more about this?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Chips of AMT-1, A-21m, A-28m and other paints
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on September 25, 2017, 07:23:51 PM
Hi Misos,
Andrey has answered that it could be that chips with closer numbers aren't necessarily close in shade. I think that he hasn't those chips, else he would have sent them. Anyway your idea is interesting and it would deserve some researches.

Hi Daniele,
Andrey hasn't found notes on the back of the chips, bit he says to have a table with similar information.

Another interesting thing: the numerical codification was used in SSSR since the early '50s, so it didn't exist in 1941-45 when the AMT paints were formulated. The document scanned at the beginning of the topic is later. So, samples of wartime colors were identified with the numerical system and relative chips after the war.
On this forum, sometimes it was said (or at least I understood so) that paint factories utilized these chips during the war to define a range of acceptability, but this seems wrong.

Andrey has sent the last table of Soviet military colors (it was seen on scalemodels.ru) and seems that some colors and numbers match the kartoteka (es.760), but other ones are missing (es.741).
Besides the colors whose numbers started with 9 were moved or renamed under other numbers.

(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/averin/1500573773_sssr_origin.jpg)

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Chips of AMT-1, A-21m, A-28m and other paints
Post by: righidan on September 26, 2017, 10:47:11 PM
Dear Massimo,
   about CIE, there is a very wide bibliography, in which I find easy to get lost.
   I can suggest a few publications that I found useful, and that are not too large.
   One is “HISTORY OF THE CIE 1913-1988” which can be freely downloaded at the address: http://files.cie.co.at/657_cie082-1990.pdf
   One very technical CIE publication, that I find very difficult to follow completely, but that can give an idea of the work behind colour determination is: "CIE 15: Technical Report: Colorimetry, 3rd edition,” that can be freely downloaded at: http://www.cdvplus.cz/file/3-publikace-cie15-2004/
   Another interesting test is “Gernot Hoffmann CIELab Color Space” with many formulas, but also with many nice illustration, from: http://docs-hoffmann.de/cielab03022003.pdf
   The one that I find most useful for normal, non-geek human beings is : “HunterLab Presents: The Basics Of Color Perception and Measurement” which is a pdf with a series of illustrated slides, prepared by one of the largest producers of instruments to measure colour, from the address: http://www.elscolab.nl/pdf/color.pdf
   Of course there many others, but even studying these four will take a lot of time, and for our scope, that is to understand how to measure airplanes colours correctly, I suppose that they can be enough.
    About TU 6-10-1449-, it is, just like FS595, a post war standard, but like FS595 it standardizes some wartime colours.
   All what I found about its introduction, from Russian Wiki and the site http://textarchive.ru/c-1138931.html, seems to indicate that it was devised in the “All-Russian Scientific Research Institute of Technical Aesthetics”.
   Here is a translation of what I found:
 “All-Russian Scientific Research Institute of Technical Aesthetics (VNIITE) is a research and design-experimental institute , an educational and methodological and information center in the field of design . It is under the jurisdiction of the Ministry of Education and Science of the Russian Federation .

  The Institute was established in 1962 in Moscow on the territory of the Exhibition of Economic Achievements of the USSR in accordance with the Resolution of the Council of Ministers of the USSR No. 349 "On improving the quality of products of machine-building and cultural goods through the introduction of methods of artistic design."

  VNIITE together with the paint and varnish industry for 25 years improved the "Card of samples (standards) of paintwork materials color", through which the standardization and color control of paint and varnish materials was carried out, and instrumental methods controlled the quality of color reproduction standards, which allowed to maintain and maintain the color standards (and paint and varnish materials). The results of the work of VNIITE were reflected in TU 6-10-1449-85, in which for the first time a list of all the standards of the "Cartotek" with exact color names and color characteristics appeared, which, for the first time, allowed the domestic card index to be raised to the level of international standards such as RAL and TGL.”
   I must say that I have seen dates on photos that seem to suggest that some sort of standard was published from 1974 or maybe earlier.

   About Mr Averin: if he has a table with the X,Y,Z values, it is perfect!
   We do not need to have a physical example of the colour, which was supposed to last without hue changes for about three years, but if we can have the X,Y,Z values of 820, 823, 824 and 827, we can exactly reconstruct the shade of AMT 11 and 12.
   And also of all the other colours in which we are interested, and that do not appear in modern tables.
   I know that it can appear a little bit strange for us, that have grown comparing colours to the chips in the FS595, but believe me, it works!
   Best regards
Daniele



Title: Re: Chips of AMT-1, A-21m, A-28m and other paints
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on September 27, 2017, 10:14:16 AM
Hi Daniele,
I've read the link about Hunterlab, it is certainly interesting. The difficulty of xyz method is that, when knowing the coordinates, we have to go to a paint mixer with colorimeter, because digital chips aren't very reliable; for example, I have seen digital chips of fs 34102 in the range of the brown instead of green.
From what you write, I think to understand that the chips of kartoteka are of the '60s, not of the '50s.
I'm still waiting the scan of the xyz table from Andrey.

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Chips of AMT-1, A-21m, A-28m and other paints
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on September 27, 2017, 09:17:22 PM
Hi Daniele,
here are the scans of a booklet with x,y,z values from Andrey. Colors are numbered up to 9xx.
Please, let me know what you can obtain from this.
Regards
Massimo

http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/averin/IMG_0001.jpg (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/averin/IMG_0001.jpg)

http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/averin/IMG_0002.jpg (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/averin/IMG_0002.jpg)

http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/averin/IMG_0003.jpg (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/averin/IMG_0003.jpg)

http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/averin/IMG_0004.jpg (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/averin/IMG_0004.jpg)

http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/averin/IMG_0005.jpg (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/averin/IMG_0005.jpg)

http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/averin/IMG_0006.jpg (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/averin/IMG_0006.jpg)

http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/averin/IMG_0007.jpg (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/averin/IMG_0007.jpg)

http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/averin/IMG_0008.jpg (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/averin/IMG_0008.jpg)

http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/averin/IMG_0009.jpg (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/averin/IMG_0009.jpg)

http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/averin/IMG_0010.jpg (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/averin/IMG_0010.jpg)

http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/averin/IMG_0011.jpg (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/averin/IMG_0011.jpg)



Title: Re: Chips of AMT-1, A-21m, A-28m and other paints
Post by: righidan on September 28, 2017, 01:41:10 AM
Dear Massimo,
   Bingo!!!
   Please thank Mr. Averin and promise him some good bottles of wine if he ever happens to be near Florence, where I live!
   And of course, some bottles are always ready for you!
   You are absolutely right, we cannot trust digital chips.
   But with the information you have just given, we can reach real colour chips.
   The first method is to have a colorimeter, then translate the XYZ values to L*A*B* and control how close to the original are the model colours you have.
   I do own a colorimeter, but it is rather expensive, and outside the interest of a “normal” modeler.
   But we can do a lot, with very little expense.
   Let’s take as an example the Kartoteka colour number 734, that according to Mr. Akan is one of the two limits of the colour 4BO.
   From the back of the Kartoteka chips, the values are: X=11,0 Y= 11,8 Z=7,7.(https://i.pinimg.com/564x/19/c8/dc/19c8dc04980a65a062c160a628eabb21.jpg)
   You can see that they are the same from the image 008 you have sent, where for colour 734 we have X=11,095 Y=11,807 Z=7,765.
   They are the same values, with different decimals: perfect!
   Then you can use an xls free file to convert them to L*A*B* values, or use the program “Easy RGB” (https://it.pinterest.com/offsite/?token=973-134&url=https%3A%2F%2Fs-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com%2Foriginals%2Faa%2F62%2Fe4%2Faa62e47906149251a3c1fb9605711837.jpg&pin=481463016406804613)at the address http://www.easyrgb.com/en/ to convert them, and that program lets you find similar commercial colours using the function “Match” and as you can see, the commercial paint “N457 Tikkurila Symphony Opus I and II” is very similar to colour 734.(https://it.pinterest.com/offsite/?token=506-272&url=https%3A%2F%2Fs-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com%2Foriginals%2Fff%2Fe5%2Fbb%2Fffe5bbe13baaea946116844b655e50b2.jpg&pin=481463016406804618)
   I suppose that Tikkurila  produces real colour chips of their paint, and I am sure that savvy modellers can devise a way to get it.
   Then we have the English E-Paint co, that at http://www.e-paint.co.uk/ has a site where you can insert the L*A*B* values, and compare them to the most common colour standards.
   You insert the values and voila! You find that 734 is distinguishable only to the practiced eye if compared to the standard TSD 1-3-5 DIN 6164, but even more important for our practical interests, it is VERY CLOSE to FS595 24098!(https://it.pinterest.com/offsite/?token=27-745&url=https%3A%2F%2Fs-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com%2Foriginals%2F18%2F52%2Fe4%2F1852e42e9f7d41672a2679fc974047ea.jpg&pin=481463016406804630)
   As human resourcefulness is very ample, we have another option: we go to sensuallogic “Paintmaker” site, at https://sensuallogic.com/paintmaker, and after inserting the RGB values of 734, that we have got from easyRGB, we have different mixing options using popular artist oil colours, in this case Winsor & Newton artist oils, and we can produce in our home a colour VERY SIMILAR to Kartoteka 734.(https://it.pinterest.com/offsite/?token=905-292&url=https%3A%2F%2Fs-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com%2Foriginals%2F6a%2Fac%2Ff0%2F6aacf0176ed6c4b15d2cec26361b010b.jpg&pin=481463016406804640)
   Of course it is human, and so it is not perfect, but for us modellers is a huge advancement and we hope that it will put an end to VVS planes painted in venomous acid green.
   Now the work is to extract the colours that have been used on VVS airplanes, to convert them to L*A*B* values, and study the real colour chips that can represent them, and then I think that we can have some acceptable information about VVS colours.
   Moreover, if we can produce L*A*B* values for VVS colours, it will be very easy for modelling colour companies to market correct colours.
   I am happy and willing to give an hand, but I will be away from home for a medical meeting in the next few days, and I suppose that I will have many time constraints in the next weeks, but I must say that the magical team Massimo- Andrey has stricken a golden ball!
   Best regards
Daniele


Title: Re: Chips of AMT-1, A-21m, A-28m and other paints
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on September 28, 2017, 09:07:01 AM
Hi Daniele,
I'm happy that you have clear ideas how to proceed.
To tell the truth, I've inserted these coordinates into the site, and it gives a shade that is more brownish than I expected. I've seen its saturated version on Photoshop, and it is a reddish yellow, not a lemon yellow as expected for a camouflage green. I wait to see a real painted chip to clarify the thing. I had the same problem with FS-34102, for example. The commercial names for some of the paints given as similar by the same site point on forest green. It seems that the rgb rendition on screen of these shades by colorimeters is unreliable.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Chips of AMT-1, A-21m, A-28m and other paints
Post by: 66misos on September 28, 2017, 09:35:21 AM
Hi Gents,

very interesting information. I tried it for AMT-1, AMT-11 and AMT-12 and here are results:

(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1338902)

(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1338903)

(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1338904)

It is interesting how dark are those colors and how little difference is between greys AMT-11 and AMT-12.
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Chips of AMT-1, A-21m, A-28m and other paints
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on September 28, 2017, 07:57:06 PM
Hi Misos,
this is an interesting experiment.
As before, the look on the screen is different from my expectations, but the comparison between shades can be significant.
Unfortunately I don't know if those paints can easily be found near home.
I think to remember a modelistic site that made a similar work with paints for modelistic use, but I can't remember the link. Maybe on some old posts?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Chips of AMT-1, A-21m, A-28m and other paints
Post by: 66misos on September 30, 2017, 10:56:40 AM
Hi,
to have completed it, here are another two colors:

Green AMT-4
(http://modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1339383)

Light blue AMT-7
(http://modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1339385)

However, this is very important information:
...the numerical codification was used in SSSR since the early '50s, so it didn't exist in 1941-45 when the AMT paints were formulated. The document scanned at the beginning of the topic is later. So, samples of wartime colors were identified with the numerical system and relative chips after the war.
On this forum, sometimes it was said (or at least I understood so) that paint factories utilized these chips during the war to define a range of acceptability, but this seems wrong...
Document has in its header the date March 13th, 1956 (e.g. eleven! years after the WWII), and update on May 3rd, 1966.
Questions is - where they had color samples that were scanned from? From original wrecks? From old stocks? From the new production?
So also those chips are only indicative, no dogma. And endless discussions about the "right colors" can continuse ;-)
Regards,
   66misos