Sovietwarplanes

Great Patriotic War Aviation => Lend-lease planes => Topic started by: 66misos on January 13, 2014, 10:45:51 AM



Title: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on January 13, 2014, 10:45:51 AM
Hi,
here is link to the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arWU-lzYjh0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arWU-lzYjh0) with the following interesting moments:

34:52 P-39 starts its long journey via ?Northern path? through Alaska to SU. Soviet red stars (older type with black outline) are already painted on the both underwings.
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/131204_VVSP-39_04_zpsc3ea8fa4.jpg)

32:04 Original old type USAF white star in blue circle is being repainted to the VVS red star with black outline:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/PaintingRedstar_zps14758803.png)
Note rough overpainting of the original blue circle.

33:36 wooden crates with disassembled planes delivered via ?Southern path? are shown. Latter, P-39s are assembled and soviet red stars (latter version with white outline) are painted over original latter USAF marking. White bar and blue circle & outline, still visible, wait for overpainting with green.
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/131204_P-39assemblyinCU_02_zps3199b36d.png)

Note, fresh OD is quite glossy:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/131204_P-39glossyOD_zps016971fa.png)

Regards,
    66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on January 13, 2014, 01:36:46 PM
Hi Misos,
very interesting. Would you use these images to update your article on P-39s?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on January 14, 2014, 11:12:47 AM
Hi Massimo,
yes, I would like to do that. In the meantime I work on templates for another P-39/P-400 profiles to have more pictures. Unfortunately work does not advance as fast as expected. At least the light at the end of tunnel is already visible.
I wonder how fast you or Tapani can make your profiles. :o
Regards,
     66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on January 14, 2014, 01:12:36 PM
Hi Misos,
when a template is available and don't require modifications to panelling or other details, I need few hours for a profile by adapting the closer existing one. The first ones required much more time.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on February 03, 2014, 03:39:23 PM
Hi,

this is link http://www.vm-drygin.ru/gallery/17 (http://www.vm-drygin.ru/gallery/17) to page of V.M. Drygin from 298 IAP with photo galery showing also his Cobra(-s):

(http://www.vm-drygin.ru/sites/default/files/public/gallery/2012-05/17/17.jpeg)

Note how different color shade is on the gun covering side plate with 8 victory stars, like from the different plane. It almost looks like they have one "generic" plate for painting victory stars for celebrating photo sessions used (e.g. repeatedly repainted) for different pilots  ;)

Regards,
    66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Troy Smith on February 04, 2014, 12:22:13 AM
Hi 66 misos

somewhere on the site there is a picture of victory stars being painted on with a stencil.   And, I think on here there is mention of a regulation size for victory stars, possibly 5 cm?

This would explain the similar appearance of the markings.

Sorry, I'm too tired to hunt up these threads, or find if my memory is playing tricks.  Might jog the memory of others.

HTH
T


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on February 04, 2014, 02:32:44 PM
Hi Troy,
I thought about covering plate itself, not about victory stars. That plate is apparently darker than surrounding fuselage. It looks like either greased and polished or from other newer plane. Not repainted, stencils (one under bottom right victory star) are visible.
Regards,
       66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: KL on February 04, 2014, 06:48:14 PM
As I mentioned, there is a clear case when gun compartment panel was reused:  Rechkalov's P-39N and P-39Q

this is G. Rechkalov's P-39N

(http://russcode.ru/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/1335216724_rechkalov.jpg)
(http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/rechcl_4.jpg)

and this is G. Rechkalov's P-39Q

(http://russcode.ru/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/rechkal10.jpg)
(http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/rechcl_3.jpg)


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on February 06, 2014, 01:45:36 PM
Hi,

here is profile of Baranov's P-39 from 28 GIAP based on photo and info from this interview http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1506.0 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1506.0):

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/140206_P-39Q_Baranovno28_LEFT_01_zpsd817cfef.jpg)

In early May 1945 regiment conducted bombing attacks on an enemy forces in the town Palmnicken, using 100 kg and 250 kg bombs.

Pictures and info about FAB bombs taken from http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=685.msg3337#msg3337 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=685.msg3337#msg3337), put together in one doc over several layers a scaled into one common scale.
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/140206_Russianbombs_zps092f00ca.jpg)

Picture of FAB-100
(http://rgakfd.altsoft.spb.ru/getImage.do?object=1805998088&original=1&compatible=1)

Could anybody, please, specify what exact type of FAB-100 and FAB-250 were used on Cobras?
Thanks.

     66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on February 07, 2014, 09:49:33 AM
Hi,

here is profile of P-39Q-21 (4-blades propeller) flown by Porfiriy Borisovich Ovsyannikov from 28 GIAP. Same as G. Baranov above, based on photos and info from interview at http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1506.0

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/140207_P-39Q_Ovsjannikovno42_RIGHT_01_zpscd743a50.jpg)

Board number "42" belongs to P.B. Ovsyannikov's new plane after he was shot down on April 24, 1945 when Soviet forces were near Berlin. It was a forced landing, plane was damaged and replaced.
In early May 1945 he participated in bombing attacks on an enemy forces in the town Palmnicken, using 100 kg and 250 kg bombs.

Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: KL on February 07, 2014, 05:06:42 PM
Hi Misos,
in late 1944 or early 1945, both Airacobras should have standard VVS stars with white and thin red outline.

Regards,
KL


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on February 07, 2014, 05:46:14 PM
Hi KL,
you are right. White line should be 10cm wide and red one should be 1cm (1/10 of white). This red outline is also in my profiles above, probably not visible enough after scaling down the picture. Next time I will make them a bit wider.

Note the nose part of no. "28" - how dark it is on photo (dirty, grease, gun smoke stains?...). I saw it also on other Cobras. I think it could by also applied on Sukhov's Cobra instead of painting it black/dark green.

I still have doubts about white band on the rudder, although interview is only about 28 GIAP ???
- Cobra behind Ovsyannikov's "42" has no white band on rudder. Unfortunately its rear fuselage is covered by propeller blade of Cobra "42". Font of "42" is different from "28" and "81".
- Cobras behind Kislyakov have white band on the rear fuselage, not on the tail, where they have serial number. Font of board numbers, at least "81" seems to be same as "28".
- Baranov's no. "28" has only one solid line on the rudder, while next Cobra on that picture has also thin lines on both sides of center wide band.

Regards,
    66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Troy Smith on February 07, 2014, 08:44:07 PM
HI 66Misos

The Kobra in the background of #28 is interesting, with the white stripe either side of the tail stripe. 
(http://www.airforce.ru/history/ww2/ovsjannikov/ovsjannikov6.jpg)


The image of #42 is interesting, the plane in the background does not seem to have a tail stripe
(http://www.airforce.ru/history/ww2/ovsjannikov/ovsjannikov4.jpg)

and it's always useful to see the phtps that a profile is drawn from as well.

The other image on the page is also of interest, as these have rear fuselage bands

(http://www.airforce.ru/history/ww2/ovsjannikov/ovsjannikov5.jpg)

thanks for your profile work for the site.

cheers
Troy


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on February 26, 2014, 05:19:30 PM
Hi,

I found interesting info at http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_12_start_420.html (http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_12_start_420.html)

USAF Airacobras usually had transmitter IFF (System of Identification) on the back side of canopy, behind pilot's head:
(http://scalemodels.ru/images/2014/01/1391160102_p39_504.jpg)

But because the equipment was secret, the planes supplied under Lend-Lease (whether to Soviet Union or to UK) did not have this system installed. Also planes (actually P-400) taken back to USA from UK did not have these transmitters. So back part of the Soviet, British or American cobra P-400 should look empty like this:
(http://scalemodels.ru/images/2014/01/1390962603_3-014_11A.jpg)

That IFF transmitter could appear only in USAF Cobras delivered directly from USA.

Regards,
     66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: learstang on February 26, 2014, 05:50:08 PM
Interesting information; thank you for sharing!

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on February 27, 2014, 10:07:01 AM
Hi Misos,
this is an interesting note for your page on P-39s. I hope you will find some time to update it.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on February 28, 2014, 06:39:15 AM
Hi Misos,
I've updated your pages. Please, have a look if it is all well.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on March 05, 2014, 01:24:31 PM
Hi,

here is another profile.
It bases on the following photo from the book Airacobras over Kuban by V. Roman and accompanying text about rudder and serial number:

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_different%20Cobras/P-39_74508IAP_zps38e6ba68.jpg)

regards,
      66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: KL on March 05, 2014, 07:39:25 PM
508 iap had different tactical markings:

(http://www.uhlib.ru/transport_i_aviacija/aviacija_i_vremja_2003_06/pic_124.jpg)
(http://airaces.narod.ru/all0/mihal_v5.jpg)

Later, when renamed to 213 giap
(http://crimso.msk.ru/Images6/AS/AS91-1/6-1.jpg)

Lightning was also used by 303 iad, part of which was the famous Normandie-Niemen regiment.  303 iad at different times included P-39 regiments:
- 494 iap from Aug 1943 to Nov 1943
- 9 giap from Oct 1944 till end of war

HTH,
KL


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on March 05, 2014, 09:17:51 PM
Hi Misos,
nice work, but there are some small things:
the number 3 on the fuselage has a different shape; its upper part should be as '37', while the lower part looks as your 3 but the 'mouth' of the number looks more open;
the red star on the fuselage should be wider and moved in lower position (not well centered as on US planes), and perspectically deformed for the wrapping around on the lower part;
the color of the outline of the star looks darker than the 13 and even of the number on the tail, I think it is silver.
Please, check on an enlarged image.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on March 06, 2014, 10:41:33 AM
Hi,
thank you for your comments.
So it should be from 329IAD, IAP not known.

KL,
wasn't 9 GIAP latter rearmed from P-39 to La-7 planes?

Massimo,
I well correct it within couple of day. I travel now.

Rergards,
     66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: KL on March 06, 2014, 06:24:46 PM
wasn't 9 GIAP latter rearmed from P-39 to La-7 planes?

Yes, you are correct - 9 giap received La-7s in summer 1944.

303 iad and its 494 iap is still an option for autumn 1943.
The real question: When was the lightning introduced as 303 iad tactical marking?  Lightning is rarely seen on Yak-1s flown by Normandie pilots in 1943.  Maybe the "French Connection " can help...  :)


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: KL on March 06, 2014, 10:52:41 PM
So it should be from 329IAD, IAP not known.

329 iad comprised of:

- 101 giap
- 66 iap
- 57 giap

101 giap had white spinners!  check here:  http://statehistory.ru/books/Artyem-Drabkin_YA-dralsya-s-asami-lyuftvaffe--Na-smenu-pavshim--1943-1945---/10
Во всех эскадрильях полка коки винтов были белые....  Спереди сбоку наносились крупные белые номера машин. Номера самолетов первой эскадрильи начинались с 01, второй ? 20, третьей ? 30. Я летал на ?кобре? под номером 22. Если самолет вышел из строя и я надолго перехожу на другую машину, то номер также переносился. Ну и за сбитые самолеты рисовали звездочки: там, где номера, ? спереди сбоку. Как у Покрышкина.

(http://waralbum.ru/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/soviet-P-39.jpg)

66iap had different markings.  Check here:  http://statehistory.ru/books/Artyem-Drabkin_YA-dralsya-s-asami-lyuftvaffe--Na-smenu-pavshim--1943-1945---/12
Еще у нас были отличительные знаки полка на самолетах. Первая эскадрилья ? коки винта красные, вторая эскадрилья ? голубые, третья эскадрилья ? желтые. Полос не было  ???. Тактические номера у самолетов полка были белого цвета и наносились на хвостовой части фюзеляжа.

(http://statehistory.ru/books/Artyem-Drabkin_YA-dralsya-s-asami-lyuftvaffe--Na-smenu-pavshim--1943-1945---/image026.jpg)

So, your P-39s with lightnings could be related to 57 giap (something to double check!!!)

(http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/9364/5299263.2a/0_11421b_97cc9abf_XL.jpg)
(http://fighters.front.ru/pictyri/spitfire.jpg)  



Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on March 07, 2014, 11:31:10 PM
Hi,

P-39 board no. 20 from KL's post looks interesting - vertical (white?) stripe on the rudder like on the P-39Q "28" (Baranov, 28 GIAP) from Ovsyannikov interview, no serial number and dark (red or blue?) propeller spinner.
Regarding blue, there are basically 2 possibilities on Massimo's Mig3 pages:
- oil enamel A-9    gloss dark blue      (http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/chips/A9darkblue.jpg)    hydraulic system
- oil enamel A-10   gloss azure          (http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/chips/A10blue.jpg)    oxygen tank and pipes

From Ovsyannikov interview: "we (28 GIAP) had white spinners... the 72nd Regiment, they were red, and in the 68th Regiment?sky blue"
So if blue, then A-10 gloss azure could be a good candidate.

regards,
   66msos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on March 08, 2014, 06:32:36 AM
Hi Misos,
in my idea, sky blue has to be read as the color of undersurfaces of other types, as AMT-7 or A-28m.
About the profile of 13: the photo gives the idea of a star moved a bit more down that ends well in the neutral grey zone and is deformed for perspective.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on March 08, 2014, 12:17:22 PM
Hi Massimo,

I enlarged and deformed star a bit more.
Right tip of that star already touches the board number and left bottom tip is on the trailing edge of the wing (like on the photo).

Regarding that blue color. Do you think that they used AMT-7 or A-28m for painting spinners and tail tips?
(http://www.airforce.ru/history/ww2/photoalbum/30gviap/30gviap_1squadron_tech.jpg)
Here that blue color looks quite bright.
However, here the spinner looks quite dark (e.g.red?):
(http://statehistory.ru/books/Artyem-Drabkin_YA-dralsya-s-asami-lyuftvaffe--Na-smenu-pavshim--1943-1945---/image026.jpg)
Plus, that verical strip on the tail looks a bit darker than white boar no. "20".

Regards,
    66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on March 08, 2014, 05:57:38 PM
Hi Misos,
I suggest to do so:
move downwards the star and deform its lower brace;
modify the 3;
move forward the z of the lightning.
I've tried a rough sketch to explain better:

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lendlease/p-39/sketch13.jpg)

About the light blue: this is how I read 'sky blue' ; I haven't other informations, apart that Mr. Bykov (if I remember well) wrote that, in general,  the blue of undersurface was utilized for markings too.
An alternative could have been AII light blue that was gloss and lighter (but perhaps less easy to be found in 1944).
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: KL on March 08, 2014, 09:44:48 PM
Finally found confirmation for lightnings on 57 gviap planes:

А на следующий день, 19 августа, восьмерка истребителей вылетела в тот же район на штурмовку вражеской автоколонны. Группу истребителей И-16 со стрелами на фюзеляже повел командир эскадрильи Виктор Орлов. Я летел у него ведомым.

from http://militera.lib.ru/memo/russian/ivanov_al/index.html
book's name is "Скорость, маневр, огонь"  author is А.Л. Иванов

(http://static2.ozone.ru/multimedia/books_covers/1008264676.jpg)

from one sentence in memoirs to Il-2 flight simulator game:

(http://www.sukhoi.ru/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=122421&d=1291380254)


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on March 09, 2014, 06:56:28 AM
An automatic translation:
Quote
And the next day, August 19, eight fighters flew in the same area to attack enemy convoys. Group-16 fighters with arrows on the fuselage led squadron commander Viktor Orlov. I flew his wingman.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on March 12, 2014, 06:37:31 PM
Hi Massimo,
I am too busy now to play with PS. So in the meantime just couple of questions:
- is that arrow/lighting white or yellow? I made it according to the Cobra in foreground. "Z" on the arrow/lighting on "13" is partially covered by pitot tube tip.
- I am not sure that digit "3" is so open on the bottom. Photo does not show it clearly. And that Spitfire has similiar upper part but bottom part is closed. Do you have exmple of such open digit "3"?

   66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: KL on March 12, 2014, 08:45:46 PM
Hi Misos,
57 giap Spitfires had yellow arrows as a regiment marking:

К тому же в заблуждение вводили собратьев по оружию и желтые стрелы, нарисованные вдоль фюзеляжа, которыми мы украсили свои ?спитфайры?, ? отличительный знак полка.
Были приняты срочные контрмеры ? содрать с фюзеляжей традиционные ?украшения?.
Вооружившись стамесками, отвертками, металлическими линейками, перочинными ножами и прочими острыми предметами, мы пошли в атаку на желтые стрелы.
Скобяными работами мы были заняты все свободное время между вылетами, а потом, подкрашивали фюзеляж [195] светло-серой краской, под цвет англичанина, Но и после того, как были уничтожены стрелы, все же некоторые летчики и зенитчики продолжали путать ?спитфайр? с ?мессершмиттом?. В один из вылетов нашими ?яками? был атакован самолет гвардии лейтенанта Мироненко.


Ivanov always uses word "arrows", never "lightnings" - it is posible that the rear end of the marking could have had feathers/stabilizers, like here:

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/il26.jpg)
(http://s51.radikal.ru/i134/1206/e9/241a7ae13702.jpg)  


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on March 13, 2014, 05:15:17 PM
Hi KL,
summarized, arrows on Spits were yellow (wuite dark), but without feathers/stabilizers, arrows on Il-2 were white with feathers/stabilizers.
The arrows on French N-N Yaks were white without feathers/stabilizers, but at the end part a bit thicker than on front part:
Photos from http://www.mission4today.com/index.php?name=ForumsPro&file=viewtopic&t=14430&printertopic=1&start=0&finish=-1 (http://www.mission4today.com/index.php?name=ForumsPro&file=viewtopic&t=14430&printertopic=1&start=0&finish=-1)
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/sub4/Yak3.jpg)
Btw, outline of the red star on this Yak was silver or white?

Arrows on P-39 seem to be white (brighter than serial numbers), of constant thickness. Without supporting photo I think/guess that on Cobras arrows were similiar to other "fighter" arrows, e.g. without feathers/stabilizers.

Star could be similiar to this one:
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/sub4/Russ-p39.jpg)
It is painted over standard US star but with thicker outline and thus top tip is going more up and both bottom tips are going more down.

   66misos
 


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: KL on March 13, 2014, 06:25:58 PM
From what we know about the regimental markings so far, colour was an important element.  If you change colour of the arrow, it isn't 57 giap any more.
White arrow was 303 iad marking.  If your Airacobra has white arrow it automatically belongs to 303 iad.


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Pascal on March 13, 2014, 11:00:49 PM
Lightning is rarely seen on Yak-1s flown by Normandie pilots in 1943.  Maybe the "French Connection " can help...  :)

One Yak-1 of the Normandie is known with a white arrow, in october 1943 : the 23. But it is then the only Yak-1 remaining in the group, that flow Yak-9 at that time.

(http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/973239yak1.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=973239yak1.jpg)

Normandie's planes surely wore the arrow in 1944, as the 18 GIAP's do.

Pascal


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: KL on March 14, 2014, 03:30:38 AM
Thanks Pascal,
this makes 303 iad and its 494 iap more likely for those two Airacobras with white arrows


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on March 14, 2014, 06:53:15 AM
Hi Misos,
Quote
Hi Massimo,
I am too busy now to play with PS. So in the meantime just couple of questions:
- is that arrow/lighting white or yellow? I made it according to the Cobra in foreground. "Z" on the arrow/lighting on "13" is partially covered by pitot tube tip.
- I am not sure that digit "3" is so open on the bottom. Photo does not show it clearly. And that Spitfire has similiar upper part but bottom part is closed. Do you have exmple of such open digit "3"?
At present time I've found this one. Only, the photo is from far.
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/il-2m/13band-90_GShAP.jpg)
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/il-2m/il2m-bp-fl-al-3view-prof-whiteband13-p.jpg)
About the arrow: on the photo of P-39s it appears, on both planes, lighter than the snow on the background. I suppose it was painted white.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on March 18, 2014, 12:54:56 PM
Hi Misos,
looks good. Excellent drawing indeed.
I will be glad to add it to your excellent page.  Today I've some problems with my usual mailbox, but I hope they will be resolved soon.
A question: I see the number with 5 digits on the photo. In another discussion on P-40s, I had the impression that often serials of US planes had 6 digits. Could you help me to understand the thing, please?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on March 18, 2014, 01:51:14 PM
Hi Misos,
the mailbox is ok now.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: KL on March 18, 2014, 08:03:09 PM
If 494 iap then it should be autumn 1943, not winter 1943/44.

the regiment is still questionable  :-[ From the discussion about general Zaharov's Yak-3 it became clear that not all of the regiments that belonged to 303 iad had white arrow on their planes...


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on March 18, 2014, 08:14:50 PM
Hi Massimo,

thanks for comment. :D
...I see the number with 5 digits on the photo. In another discussion on P-40s, I had the impression that often serials of US planes had 6 digits. Could you help me to understand the thing, please?
http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_serials/usafserials.html (http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_serials/usafserials.html):
Serial numer painted on the tail (officially called the radio call number, but almost universally known as the tail number) represents uniq identification number of the plane produced in the particular fiscal year. This system based on the United States Fiscal Year was introduced on 1 July 1921 and it continues to the present day. In 1940, the third sequence was started at 00001 (with five digits). When the third sequence reached 99999, it continued with six digits which continues to date.
Since military aircraft were at that time not expected to last more than ten years, the first digit of the fiscal year number was omitted. For example, Curtiss P-40B serial number 41-5205 had the tail number 15205 painted on its tail fin, Curtiss P-40K serial number 42-11125 had the tail number 211125 painted on the fin, and P-51B 42-106559 had 2106559 painted on the tail.

I will send you updated profile according to the last KL's comment. KL, thank you for correction ;)

Regards,
    66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on March 18, 2014, 08:41:13 PM
Hi,

here is updated profile accorging to your recommendations:
- letters 3 is changed,
- red star is enlarged, with silver/red outline and moved down,
- arrow is white,
- regiment changed from 329 IAD (57 IAP?) to 303 IAD / 494 IAP.

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_different%20Cobras/140318BellP-39K-1_303IAD_v03_zps59c1e17d.jpg)

I deleted my previous alternatives to reduce number of incorrect pictures.

EDIT: http://www.wikiwand.com/ru/494-%D0%B9_%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B1%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9_%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B0%D1%86%D0%B8%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9_%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BA (http://www.wikiwand.com/ru/494-%D0%B9_%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B1%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9_%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B0%D1%86%D0%B8%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9_%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BA)

regards,
    66misos




Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on March 19, 2014, 01:01:01 PM
Hi Misos,
I've received your mail. I'll upload it as soon as possible.
Regards
Massiimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on March 20, 2014, 06:00:43 PM
Hi,
I found at http://crimso.msk.ru/Site/Arts/Art3884.htm (http://crimso.msk.ru/Site/Arts/Art3884.htm) another "multicolor" P-39 - number "103" in "painting typical for spring 1945", as quoted from photo:
(http://crimso.msk.ru/Images6/IA/IA-26/47-2.jpg)
and this is artistic profile by Michail Bykov:
(http://crimso.msk.ru/Images6/IA/IA-26/40-3.jpg)

It is interesting how bright is that repainting. It looks even brighter than repainting on Sukhov's P-39 "50". Again, blue-grey AMT-11 or light brown AMT-1 or what?  ???  I do not think that it is German paint.

    66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: KL on March 20, 2014, 06:30:45 PM
"v tipichnoi okraske" may reffer to regimental markings, not to camouflage.

It is interesting how bright is that repainting. It looks even brighter than repainting on Sukhov's P-39 "50". Again, blue-grey AMT-11 or light brown AMT-1 or what?  ???  I do not think that it is German paint.

"Polevoi Remont" instructions, in the part about the L-L planes, clearly indicate that nitro paints have to be repaired with nitro paints and that oil paints have to be repaired with oil paints.  IMHO, P-39s were painted with oil paints - so AMT nitro varnishes should be excluded.


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on March 20, 2014, 10:07:57 PM
Hi KL,
very interesting info. From VVS oil paints there are basicaly two options - A-24m green and A-21m light yellowish brown. A-24m, similar to AMT-4 and 4BO green, almost disappears on bw photos on Olive Drab background (blue circles repainting). So A-21m bright similarly on Il-2 seems to be the right candidate. A-32m Dark grey is too dark.
      66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: KL on March 21, 2014, 11:20:05 PM
For A-21m you could try a colour between the two left chips

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/averin/a-21mav.jpg)


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on March 22, 2014, 06:52:23 PM
Hi Misos,
looks very interesting for a profile. The 'normal' planes on the background are very nice too, with their white nose and markings on the doors.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on March 22, 2014, 08:19:43 PM
Hi KL,
I will try that A-21m chips. I think I already have some PS mix of that left samples in my comp. I used it on one of alternatives for Sukhov's "50".

Do you have anybody better pictures of orders painted on the doors, please? One on the right door looks like Guard Order, but I do not know what is on the left door.
Thanks.

regards,
       66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: KL on March 22, 2014, 10:32:18 PM
213th giap's full name was: 213-й гвардейский истребительный Одерский орденов Богдана Хмельницкого и Александра Невского авиационный полк
 
Their P-39s had either order of Bogdan Hmelnitski or order of Alekander Nevski

(http://www.rusorden.ru/content/image/su/o7_1a.gif)
(http://www.rusorden.ru/content/image/su/o8a.gif)


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on March 23, 2014, 12:09:48 PM
Hi,
by the way, EP has made a recent page where there are two interesting photos and a profile of a P-39:
http://www.redbanner.co.uk/History/Frantic/Frantic.html (http://www.redbanner.co.uk/History/Frantic/Frantic.html).
Any comments?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: KL on March 24, 2014, 06:47:30 PM
EP has made a recent page where there are two interesting photos and a profile of a P-39:
http://www.redbanner.co.uk/History/Frantic/Frantic.html (http://www.redbanner.co.uk/History/Frantic/Frantic.html).
Any comments?

Hi Massimo,
the text and profiles are interesting, but I would not comment it because everybody knows how I value Pilawskii's "research".
Can you comment on it? Have you found it interesting and why?
Regards,
KL 


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on March 25, 2014, 11:18:13 AM
Hi Konstantin,
I've not comments on this page for now.
I found it while looking for his page on Safonov, because Tapani is making drawings of Soviet P-40s including this one.
This page shows a small part of plane n.10 with a well visible stripe that I considered as a demonstration that the P-40 had the Dupont camouflage. But the screenshots made by Tapani don't show any camouflage, even if he has found the same photogram, with the pilot in the very same position. I wonder what is the source of the image of EP.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on March 25, 2014, 02:06:17 PM
Hi,
I found two interesting things there:

1.) I do not know how old is that article, but the photo of soldier polishing Yak-9 is very similar to one I made and post here on these pages a year ago http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1557.msg11896#msg11896 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1557.msg11896#msg11896) However I left logo of the source material in the top-right corner. ;)

2.) Photo of this P-39:
(http://www.redbanner.co.uk/History/Frantic/p39-grab2.jpg)
is interesting due to white stencilled logo painted under horizontal stabilizer. If I read correctly, I see there something different from what EP saw - three digit number (?), dash, PARM (=Field Airplane-repairing Workshop) and some other letters.
That Cobra seems to be the same one from this photo:
(http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/080116-F-1234S-014.jpg)
Airacobra was heavily stencilled plane originally. However, stencils are missing here. And surface is quite dark. It looks like this plane was generally repaired and repainted in some PARM which identification logo is stencilled on the fuselage. ???

KL,
I read elsewhere that Airacobras from 213 GIAP had Alexander Nevsky order painted on the left doors. 

regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on March 25, 2014, 04:40:52 PM
Hi Misos,
so the plane could have its uppersurface completely repainted in Soviet green. And what about undersurfaces?

Another note on the article of EP: the star on the fuselage of his profile of La-5 is too deformed. The photo shows a not perfect star, but the most part of the visible deformation is apparent, due to the perspective and the curvature of the fuselage sides.

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on March 28, 2014, 10:46:19 AM
Hi,
I work on another profile:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_different%20Cobras/140327_P-39Q-15_68GIAP_LEFT_01_zpsd2c4ea94.jpg)

It is based on the low quality photo from Avia Dejavu http://crimso.msk.ru/Site/Crafts/Craft20288-3.htm#pics (http://crimso.msk.ru/Site/Crafts/Craft20288-3.htm#pics)
(http://crimso.msk.ru/Images6/AS/AS91-1/5-1.jpg)
Same photo but in much better quality is also in Osprey book about P-39, where board no. "67" looks angular, without rounded corners.
Blue band and spinner is AMT-7 from Massimo's Mig3 page.

Still some work ahead. I will appreciate your oppinions and corrections.
regards,
    66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on March 28, 2014, 11:34:39 AM
Hi Misos,
nice profile indeed.
Seems that the tube around the gun is of a different color than the spinner.
Could you show the better photo, please? I would see the white outlines of the stars that, on this image, looks a bit wider than in the drawing, and so for the white lines around the blue one.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on March 28, 2014, 12:46:17 PM
Hi Massimo,
sorce: P-39 Airacobra Aces of World War 2 by G. Mellinger and J. Stanaway (Osprey publ.):
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_different%20Cobras/P-39_78a_Q-1568GIAP5GIADwinter1944-45_zps253c55fe.jpg)


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on March 31, 2014, 09:52:41 AM
Hi,
here is updated profile:
- tube around the 37mm cannon is dirty/smoked white,
- white outlines of the stars a bit wider as white lines around the blue band,
- digit "6" is i bit rounded on the corners.
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_different%20Cobras/140331_P-39Q-15_68GIAP_LEFT_01_zps8e436ac4.jpg)

Regards,
    66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on March 31, 2014, 11:53:53 AM
Hi Misos,
looks very good. I hope to receive your files to update your page soon.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on April 01, 2014, 12:25:39 PM
Hi,
here in a profile of the another P-39 from 5GIAD, now from 72GIAP.
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_different%20Cobras/140401_P-39Q-15_72GIAP_LEFT_01b_zps40729c0f.jpg)

Inspiration taken again from Avia Dejavu http://crimso.msk.ru/Site/Crafts/Craft20288.htm (http://crimso.msk.ru/Site/Crafts/Craft20288.htm) and http://www.airfighters.ru/zavaruhn.php (http://www.airfighters.ru/zavaruhn.php)
I want to make still another one, the third to the party, P-39 with the white spinner and band.
regards,
    66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 01, 2014, 01:55:09 PM
Hi Misos,
very nice drawing. Could you link directly the reference images, please?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on April 01, 2014, 02:44:08 PM
Hi Massimo,
thank you. :) I did not find real photo of that "21". There are only profiles at the attached links. However, I posted this my profile at airforce.ru forum http://vif2ne.ru/nvi/forum/0/0.htm (http://vif2ne.ru/nvi/forum/0/0.htm). I hope some photo or verbal correction will be posted there.
Regards,
     66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: FPSOlkor on April 03, 2014, 08:48:01 PM
http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/kulakov/index.htm
What about planes from this interview? And there is one interesting Cobra here:
http://www.airforce.ru/history/cold_war/zabelin/index_en.htm


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on April 04, 2014, 03:38:15 PM
Hi Olkor,
thanx for links. I browsed them, found there others with interesting photos and info.
http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/articles/shevchuk/shevchuk.htm (http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/articles/shevchuk/shevchuk.htm)
Photo of P-39 still in USA prepared for transit to SU. Note already repainted late war USAF insignias on the fuselage:
(http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/articles/shevchuk/shevchuk_10.jpg)
Here is part of that interview:
"- Do you remember where and how they draw red stars on "Cobras"?
They came to us from the factory with our (e.g. red) stars.
Were aircrafts painted completely with our designation?
Yes.
- Were not American stars there?
They have white stars, and we have the red stars. Do not confuse it. Planes came with red stars. I do not know, where they did it, at the factory or somewhere else.
- Where there no cases that "Cobra" with white American stars flew to the USSR? Could not it be?
No. There also happened, that the planes came from the factory with drawings - jaws of pike or other fish, or mouth of the beast or tiger was drawn directly on the both sides of the fuselage. Beautifully. Different posters and signs were painted.
- Did not you repaint it?
No. We were not allowed to paint.
- Did such planes go to the Soviet Union?
Yes, they did. They came with drawings. But there were not many planes with pictures."

Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 04, 2014, 04:51:40 PM
Hi Oleg,
this one
(http://www.airforce.ru/history/cold_war/zabelin/zabelin_05.jpg)
and this one
(http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/kulakov/kulakov_08.jpg)
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: KL on April 04, 2014, 07:46:46 PM
... Note already repainted late war USAF insignias on the fuselage:
...
They came to us from the factory with our (e.g. red) stars.
...
Planes came with red stars. I do not know, where they did it, at the factory or somewhere else.
- Where there no cases that "Cobra" with white American stars flew to the USSR? Could not it be?
No.

It looks that more L-L planes arrived in Soviet Union with USAAF markings already repainted by the Americans than previously thought.  From this interview it is clear that not only the planes that arrived through Iran, but also the Alsib planes had there red stars actually painted by the Americans.
All those profiles depicting Airacobras with USAAF blue disks and VVS red stars should be reassessed.


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on April 04, 2014, 08:39:09 PM
Hi KL,

IMHO blue circles could be more often at the hectic beginning, with old D versions, when L-L supplies were not fast enough. But lately, when production run on full throttle, they were rare.

(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=955272)
Note already red star on the fuselage, same long-range external fuel tank gun console under left wing, sane as on photo in post above.

Regarding red stars via ASLIB see my first post in this thread ;)
Regards,
      66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 04, 2014, 11:02:08 PM
Hi Misos, hi Oleg
please have a look to these details of plane 2.

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lendlease/p-39/details.jpg)

What do you think it could be?

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on April 11, 2014, 12:39:19 PM
Hi Massimo,
there is no response at airforce.ru regarding those details. I have ho idea what it is and what colors are on the tail :'(

I made another profile in the meantime, number "81" from 28GIAP of 5GIAD with the white band on the rear fuselage:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_different%20Cobras/140411_P-39Q_28GIAPno81_LEFT_02_zps717fb85f.jpg)
Serial no. is apparently painted on the tail, unfortunately is not recognizable on the poor quality photo.

However, there is visible also dark vertical band on the rudder - it looks like repainted original white band, similiar to plane "28" from the same unit, see http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1714.msg13987#msg13987 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1714.msg13987#msg13987)
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/140206_P-39Q_Baranovno28_LEFT_01_zpsd817cfef.jpg)

It looks like vertical band on the rudder was earlier 28GIAP identification mark, latter replaced by white band on the rear fuselage. ???
Regards,
    66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 11, 2014, 01:59:36 PM
Hi Misos,
very interesting work.
Only, the blurried serial is aesthetically unpleasant. I would guess a serial on the base of the version, writing in the text that it is guessed. My impression is that it could end with 62.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on April 14, 2014, 09:15:13 AM
Hi Massimo,
I rather would not guess serial number. I preffer that way, it better reflects original photo of P-39 "81", although blurried serial is aesthetically unpleasant. May be my level of aesthetic is not high enough :-\

Here is another profile from the same regiment, Ovsyannikov's "42":
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_different%20Cobras/140413_P-39Q_Ovsjannikovno42_LEFT_03_zps133eebdc.jpg)

It is updated profile from my post http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1714.msg13989#msg13989 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1714.msg13989#msg13989)

Quotes from Ovsyannikov interview at http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1506.0 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1506.0)
"In our regiment we had white spinners, and I think the rudders were also white. The stars on the wings? I don?t even remember where they were, but I think they were only on the bottom. The serial numbers remained on the fins, but I don?t remember their color. I remember one (tactical number) ?42. This was already after they had shot me down and I had changed aircraft.
In early May 1945 our regimet participated in bombing attacks on an enemy forces in the town Palmnicken? using 100 kg and 250 kg bombs."


(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_different%20Cobras/140411_P-39Q_28GIAPnoXX_RIGHT_01b_zps1c689f5c.jpg)
I superimposed original photo with P-39 color profile to better see surface painting details on the Cobra next to (behind) Ovsyannikov?s Cobra ?42?:
-   position of the possible white band on fuselage is covered behing propeller blade of Ovsyannikov?s Cobra ?42?,
-   bottom part of the vertical white band on the rudder is visible, same as on Baranov?s P-39 ?28? ? so I decided for this alternative,
-   serial number is not visible.
Regards,
    66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 14, 2014, 10:10:15 AM
Hi Misos,
interesting work, but the photo seems to show a much wider section of the rudder painted white. The red star on the fuselage is wider too.
About n.81, I've asked Oleg for a wider photo of it.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on April 14, 2014, 11:28:31 AM
Hi Massimo,
you are right. However, that partially covered Cobra is only indicative.
IMHO, it is important, that:
- serial number of Cobra "42" is not known (confirmed also by Konstantin Chirkin, one of autor of interview with Ovsyannikov, in personal post), but was there (Ovsyannikov himself: "...serial numbers remained on the fins..."),
- there is a lot of uncertainities regarding 28GIAP regimental marking, confirmed by M. Bykov in his post at airforce.ru forum,
- Ovsyannikov himself: "...we had white spinners, and I think the rudders were also white...",
- Ovsyannikov's "42" is 4-blades Cobra, most probably the new plane, that he received after he was shot down in previous one,
- from interview http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1714.msg14364#msg14364 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1714.msg14364#msg14364): "They (e.g. Cobras) came to us from the factory with our (e.g. red) stars.", while the red star on the fuselage of that covered Cobra is a big one, looks like painted in SU, not in USA.

IMHO, new Ovsyannikov's "42" had "standard" red stars painted in USA, had serial number on the tail, did not have white fuselage band, but did have something white on the tail. That "something white" could be either rudder completly white, or white band on rudder like on Cobra "28", or white band with two thin bands on sides like on the Cobra next to Cobra "28". Or nothing, or anything between. ??? Significantly wider white band on the rudder could be acceptable compromise.
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on April 16, 2014, 05:04:16 PM
Hi,
here is a better picture of P-39 "81" fitted with three-blades propeller from my post above:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_different%20Cobras/140415_P-39no81_photo02b_zpsec6bea21.jpg)

Serial number painted on the tail is long, e.g. 6 digits starting with ?4?, the last 3 digits seems to be ?461?, e.g. could be 44-xy461.
The only possibilities for S/N: 44-xy461 are:
1.)    P-39Q-25    44-32167 to 44-32666
2.)    P-39Q-25    44-70905 to 44-71104, but ?461? does not fit here,
3.)    P-39Q-30    44-71105 to 44-71504

?x? is fully repainted.
?y? is partially repainted, its right side is visible and seems to be solid, something like 1, 3, 8, 9, 0.
P-39Q-25 was fitted with a four-blades propeller, P-39Q-30 returned to three-blades propeller, so SN for Q-25 is not an option.

From this perspective the digit to the left from ?461? could be only ?1?, so serial number could be 44-71461, painted on the P-39Q-30 tail as 471461,

Regards,
    66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on April 17, 2014, 09:16:04 AM
Hi,
both-side profile of P-39Q-30 "81" S/N: 44-71461 is here:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_different%20Cobras/140417_P-39Q_28GIAPno81_RIGHT_01_zpsd66d4e0b.jpg)

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_different%20Cobras/140417_P-39Q_28GIAPno81_LEFT_02_zpsfb04789c.jpg)

Note ring antena on the rear bottom fuselage.
regards,
    66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 18, 2014, 06:43:09 PM
Hi Misos,
looks convincing enough. Much better than a blurried number.

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: KL on April 18, 2014, 09:17:47 PM
HI Misos,
interesting analysis - much better than guessing the number!  ;)

P-39Q-30 was the last Airacobra subtype; when was it delivered to VVS and how that fits with the time when photo was taken?
Is that loop antenna related to any specific P-39 subtype?

Regards,
KL


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: KL on April 19, 2014, 08:19:24 AM
BTW, standard abbreviations for regiments and divisions were written in lower case ("small") letters in 1940es - it should be 68 giap, 5 giad if you want that detail authentic....


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 19, 2014, 09:01:38 AM
Hi Misos,
I would thank Oleg Korytov that has sent the original high resolution image.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: xan on April 19, 2014, 09:16:53 AM
Very interesting missos , and well done!
Sorry if my  question is very basic, but : The red star were painted in USA ? That's why you don't represent the US roundel in AMT-4 ?


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on April 19, 2014, 10:57:22 AM
Hi All,
thankx all to answers & comments.

Massimo,
I did not know the source. But definitely great thanks to Oleg.

XAN,
red stars were painted both in SU (more at beginning) and in USA (more at the end).

I found link at US Militaria Forum http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/154273-bell-p-39-airacobra-aka-%d0%b1%d0%b5%d0%bb%d0%bb-%d0%bf-39-%d0%b0%d1%8d%d1%80%d0%be%d0%ba%d0%be%d0%b1%d1%80%d0%b0/ (http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/154273-bell-p-39-airacobra-aka-%d0%b1%d0%b5%d0%bb%d0%bb-%d0%bf-39-%d0%b0%d1%8d%d1%80%d0%be%d0%ba%d0%be%d0%b1%d1%80%d0%b0/) with interesting info:
"Late 1945 at Radom, Poland, the Soviets abandoned a crate with mystery P-39 in the US camouflage scheme, with complete USAAF markings (see below). Typically, all L-L P-39s were delivered with Red Stars painted according to the scheme agreed with the Soviets. That Radom specimen had complete US scheme. That P-39 was taken by the Poles to aviation engineer schools and finally landed at Warsaw Technical University, Aviation Faculty"
So nicely fit to my post http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1714.msg14364#msg14364 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1714.msg14364#msg14364)

KL,
thanks for correction. Yes, it should be in lower case ("small") letters. I usually see upper case in English written texts. In Russian they add "-й", e.g. 68-й, so full correct designation should be e.g. "68th giap". Am I correct?
P-39Q-30 was the last Airacobra subtype; when was it delivered to VVS and how that fits with the time when photo was taken?
Is that loop antenna related to any specific P-39 subtype?
Actually, P-39Q-30 44-71461 was one of the last produced Cobra, they finished at 44-71504, e.g. only after next 43 plane.
I am not sure about that loop antena. I read somewhere on the net, that it was directorial antena used (mainly) during transfer via ASLIB. And that Soviets usually removed it. Anyhow, I saw it only on pictures of late Cobras:

P-39Q-25
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/P-39_Mix01.jpg)

P-39Q-20
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/P-39_67_zps8e120735.jpg)

P-39Q-15
(http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/articles/shevchuk/shevchuk_10.jpg)

fuselage from 44-2664, e.g. P-39Q-15
(http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/photogallery/p-39_tikkakoski/airacobra_26_16.jpg)

(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=955272)

Regards,
    66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 19, 2014, 02:31:01 PM
Hi Misos,
a plane with the large ventral tank could be nice for a profile, and maybe for a 3 views scale drawing.
Is it reproduced in any kit?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: KL on April 19, 2014, 08:46:15 PM
thanks for correction. Yes, it should be in lower case ("small") letters. I usually see upper case in English written texts. In Russian they add "-й", e.g. 68-й, so full correct designation should be e.g. "68th giap". Am I correct?

Ordinal numbers are also incorrect - it should be 68 giap.
This was discussed on Russian forums many times:  those abbreviations were standardized for use on military maps and that is why they are not complaint with Russian grammar and linguistic rules.

Regards,
KL 


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: barneybolac on April 20, 2014, 02:25:33 AM
Anyone have a photo of white 12 belonging to Alexander L Carmine of the 129TH?

http://airaces.narod.ru/all2/karmin.htm

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/P-39%20Cobras/silverp-39n_zpsa6eeaca2.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/P-39%20Cobras/silverp-39n_zpsa6eeaca2.jpg.html)


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 20, 2014, 07:46:53 AM
There was a photo of a (presumably) grey P-39 at http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=674.0 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=674.0), but now it's gone. Probably it's still preserved in some hard disk.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: barneybolac on April 20, 2014, 07:56:50 AM
There was a photo of a (presumably) grey P-39 at http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=674.0 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=674.0), but now it's gone. Probably it's still preserved in some hard disk.
Regards
Massimo

This photo?

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/P-39%20Cobras/p39a_zpsec7c296d.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/P-39%20Cobras/p39a_zpsec7c296d.jpg.html)

I thought at first it might have been one of these aircraft.

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/P-39%20Cobras/silverp-39na_zpsda5a3735.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/P-39%20Cobras/silverp-39na_zpsda5a3735.jpg.html)


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 20, 2014, 08:54:19 AM
Quote
This photo?
Probably. I thought to remember a better quality.
About the profile, I've tried an automatic translation

Quote
In the spring of 1944, after the 15th Air winning art painted hood karminovskoy "Airacobra" in red color with a recognized ace.

- We are here with a little mechanic painted in your car hood - said Carmine overnight technician level. - That, then, was more noticeable and more beautiful.

In the darkness Carmine could not see anything. And only in the morning understood: his nose "Airacobra" was painted not in the usual green and red.

On the same day the squadron flew Bekashonka to cover the troops of the 2nd Ukrainian Front, and a pair of Carmina - to cover his group. Bekashonok with its pilots appeared over the battlefield just in time: 18 "Junkers" unfolded for the bombing of our combat formations. Slightly taller dive bombers "grazed" 4-109.

Strike Group "Airacobra" took bombers. Carmine, ordering slave cover it, went to the rapprochement with the leading "Messer". But then came the voice of the headphones Chugunova that the engine of his car gives interruptions. Carmine had to send him to their base and continue the fight alone.

"Messer" immediately attacked him with a single machine 2 sides. There was an emergency. Karminskaya "Cobra" thrashed from side to side in alternating counterattacks, spewing fire. "Messer" rebounded, but ammunition is running out. Now followed by a new attack. Without waiting for her, Carmine deftly flew to the side of the leading car and drove almost the entire course of the rest of their ammunition. Aflame "Messer" crashed near KP Field Army. The rest of the triple-109 left to climb into the clouds. Following their "compliance" Carmine Alexander took part and at the expense of mental influence his red nose "Cobra".

Group Bekashonka meanwhile dispersed "Junkers" without giving them bombed, 3 bomber dogarali on earth. It's time to go back to their base and our fighters. But three "Messers" re stuck right carmine. Fly slightly to the side and looked at him. Carmine, waited a moment, suddenly rushed to the extreme Me-109. He rushed to the peak, Carmine behind him. Caught and pressed on, perched close to the tail, and led to his airfield. Now, they say, rammed! The remaining pair of "Messers" did not dare shoot: afraid to get in their way. "Messer" wanted to go through the wing coup, and the height of 300 meters - crashed into the ground. Couple-109 fired from a distance and went Carmine, damaging him screw.

Despite the successful completion of the match, returning to their base, Carmine ordered technique to paint the nose of the "Airacobra" in the normal color.

This looks hardly compatible with the profile.
The plane was lost  in the spring

Quote
May 31 there was a fight, the details of which are not blotted out in memory of Alexander Leontyevich and after the war. Rose in the air group "Airacobra" waged by the division commander, Lieutenant Colonel Leonid Goregliad. Senior Lieutenant Carmine on "Airacobra" tail number "12", together with his wingman Freedom flew above the main group.

Six enemy fighters appeared suddenly out of the sun. Couple "Messers", separated from the main group, rushed to the plane division commander. "Goregliad! Thee Attack! - Carmine passed by radio and rushed to intercept. Went into a nosedive." Messer "was in the crosshairs. Fire from all onboard weapons - and the Me-109 broke apart in the air.

After the attack Carmine looked around but did not find Frida. In the heat of battle was lost slave - he was young, has not fired a pilot. Carmine did battle turn and climbed higher. Saw the second "Messer", which went into its territory, and gave chase. German anti-aircraft guns opened fire on our aircraft. Shells hit the wing and cockpit. Carmine was wounded in the leg and arm. The plane caught fire. "Jump!" - Flashed the thought, but, glancing down, he saw leaving the Me-109.

"No! - Carmine decided - will burn itself, but also will not give you leave." Through the pain, he introduced the "Cobra" and into a steep dive, firing cannons and machine guns, catching up "Messer" bumped into him. Shot from the pilot lost consciousness. How was thrown out of the plane and pulled the parachute ring - can not remember. Awoke from jerk reveal dome. The remaining four "Messers" trying to avenge his master died, the wounded pilot fired - bullets hit in the back and leg.

Carmina landed pulled from the neutral area on which it is blown by the wind, a woman - a doctor. While bandaging the wounded pilot, commander of the unit, which landed on a plot Carmine went to the fallen aircraft - the benefit they lay side by side - looked at them. He brought his Carmina planchette coated with her intelligence and 2 "Iron Cross" dead German ace.

P-39 A.L.Karmina
Thus ended this sortie Alexander Carmina. For his feat, he was awarded the Order of the Red Banner. In total, during his participation in World War II, he made ​​221 sorties. After spending 31 dogfight, shot down 19 enemy aircraft in person and 14 in the group with his friends (M. Yu Bulls in their research indicates 17 personal and group 1 victory) .
Again, if I have understood well the text, this looks scarcely compatible with the profile.

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on April 20, 2014, 07:34:43 PM
Hi,
I back with Ovsyannikov "42" from http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1714.msg14408#msg14408 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1714.msg14408#msg14408)
Quotes from Ovsyannikov interview: "In our regiment we had white spinners, and I think the rudders were also white..."

I superimposed high resolution photo with P-39 color profile to better see surface painting details on the Cobra next to (behind) Ovsyannikov?s Cobra ?42? - bottom part of the vertical white "band" on the rudder is more back, it looks like either much wider band or almost half of the rudder painted white. I marked it with black dots:

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_different%20Cobras/140420_P-39Q_Ovsjannikovno42_RIGHT_02_zpsfd4c3443.jpg)

Plus, here is another profile, P-39 "103", 213 giap, from my post at http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1714.msg14256#msg14256 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1714.msg14256#msg14256)
For light color I used A-21m chip from KL's post at http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1714.msg14261#msg14261 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1714.msg14261#msg14261) - mix of top two examples.

(http://crimso.msk.ru/Images6/IA/IA-26/47-2.jpg)

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_different%20Cobras/140420_P-39Q_213GIAPno103_LEFT_01_zpsb2a62c82.jpg)

Regards,
    66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 21, 2014, 07:54:00 AM
Hi Misos,
the overimpression of the white band of the profile is a bit confusing, but it seems that the white part of the rudder was the back one. Where the curvature disappears behind the elevator, the rudder is nearly ended, I don't think that they masked a olive nail of 3 cm. I don't distinguish well the front contour of the white part on this photo.
About the very nice profile of 103, the emblem on the door is too wide, it should be more distant from the lower part of the door.
The repaintings on the back could be a bit sharper, the one under the exhausts should be closer to the panel's contour.
Excellent work anyway.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on April 21, 2014, 12:17:25 PM
Hi Massimo,

here I put detail of that high res photo with increased contrast together with tail from my profile to see it better:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_different%20Cobras/140421_P-39Q_Ovsjannikovno42_RIGHT_03TAIL_zps4110c1f9.jpg)
It really does not seems to be the band of the same width and in the same position as on the plane "28". Left side of the white part is clear arch. Right side of that white part is not vertical line - if it is shadow of the horizontal stabiliser then it is not far from Ovsyannikov's memories - rudder completly white. ???

Regards,
    66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on April 22, 2014, 06:33:53 AM
Hi,
Here is updated "103":
- Alexander Nevski emblem a bit smaller,
- A-21m areas with sharp edges (painted with brush),
- painting more follows panel lines.
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_different%20Cobras/140422_P-39Q_213GIAPno103_LEFT_01_zps5c5af5a7.jpg)

Regards,
    66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 22, 2014, 07:26:18 AM
Hi Misos,
to tell the truth, the blotches were better in the old version. They had just to be a bit sharper, but sprayed anyway.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on April 22, 2014, 09:17:56 AM
Hi Massimo,
To tell truth I like this version ;) It does not look like camoflage but more like some temporary repainting. But yes, using spray gun was probably more usual than brush in 1945. I will make also version with A-21m blotches with thin soft edges.

What do you think about white rudder on Ovsyannikov's "42" from my last post on the peevious page?
Regards,
      66misos

 


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 22, 2014, 10:12:12 AM
Hi Misos,
I think that the white color arrives up to the rear end of the rudder. Yes, there is the shadow of the stabilizer on it. We can see where it starts. There is still to check if it corresponds to the hinge line, or if the white starts behind it.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on April 23, 2014, 06:43:18 AM
Hi,

here is updated profile of "103", A-21m blotches with thin soft edges:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_different%20Cobras/140422_P-39Q_213GIAPno103_LEFT_02_zps8e4ea3fd.jpg)

(http://crimso.msk.ru/Images6/IA/IA-26/47-2.jpg)
Plane "104" has disc under the fuselage red star. Standard USAF insignias from that period had white rectangles with blue outline on the sides, so this looks like it was repainted still in US to Bell "transport" marking, e.g. red star in the white disc and subsequently white disc was repainted green in SU. So I added AMT-4 green disc under red star also onto "103".

Here, regarding "42", I put together all already posted pictures:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_different%20Cobras/140423_P-39Q_Ovsjannikovno42_RIGHT_04TAIL_zps8d3ffacf.jpg)
Black arrows show possition of slightly darker area, it could correspond to the hinge line. It is darker than area to the right from it, so it looks like unpainted part of the rudder, not white in shadow.
Alternatives:
1.) Planes "28" and "81" from 28 giap / 5 giad had painted white band either on the tail or on the rear fuselage.
2.) Ovsyannikov ("42"): "I think the rudders were also white..."
...it seems that the white part of the rudder was the back one. Where the curvature disappears behind the elevator, the rudder is nearly ended, I don't think that they masked a olive nail of 3 cm.
I would agree with that. Unless new/better photo evidence will prove something else.
Regards,
    66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 23, 2014, 06:51:56 AM
Hi Misos,
this looks right.
To be sure, could you overpose a rear fuselage without white line, but with an external arrow to better see where the hinge line should be?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on April 24, 2014, 06:48:29 AM
Hi Massimo,
here it is:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_different%20Cobras/140424_P-39Q_Ovsjannikovno42_RIGHT_04TAIL_zpsdb2494d1.jpg)
When lines are kept in the original full length, then fuselage fits as well as leading edge of the tail (e.g. is hidden). Cockpit and rudder does not fit.
When lines are deformed (shortened) in perspective, then fuselage fits as well as white bottom part of rudder and cockipt almost fits, but tail leading edge is not hidden. Anyhow, this seems to be much closer to reality.
In neither case hinge line fits to photo dark area.
Regards,
    66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 24, 2014, 07:37:16 AM
Hi Misos,
this is interesting. Looks that the rudder was painted white on its 2/3 back, and olive for 1/3 close to the hinge.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 01, 2014, 08:38:01 AM
Hi all,
the recent works of Misos were uploaded at this page:
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lendlease/p-39/p-39.html (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lendlease/p-39/p-39.html)
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: FPSOlkor on May 03, 2014, 10:22:56 PM
I would highly recomend to look through these forums for photos too:
http://forum.evvaul.com/index.php?topic=298.0
http://forum.evvaul.com/index.php?topic=63.0
http://forum.evvaul.com/index.php?topic=73.0
http://forum.evvaul.com/index.php?topic=65.0
http://forum.evvaul.com/index.php?topic=78.0Speaking of Cobras look at these photos for example
http://forum.evvaul.com/index.php?topic=73.msg29939#msg29939
http://www.pobeda.witebsk.by/foto/821iap/161/
http://www.pobeda.witebsk.by/foto/p39/13/


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on May 13, 2014, 11:04:53 AM
Hi,
do you know anybody, please, what is that little vent on the bottom nose fuselage between leg and propeller?
(http://www.airforce.ru/history/ww2/photoalbum/30gviap/30gviap_karlov_5.jpg)
(http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/photogallery/p-39_tikkakoski/airacobra_26_13.jpg)
On the production series I saw it only on the late Q versions. It is still not here on the early Q5 version:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/68/P-39Q_Airacobra_weapons_bay.jpg/800px-P-39Q_Airacobra_weapons_bay.jpg)
Do I only poorly see or it really was not on N, L, K etc. versions.
Thank you in advance.
rergards,
    66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on May 26, 2014, 06:23:02 AM
Hi,
was this plane painted with silver/alluninium paint?
(http://f6.s.qip.ru/ismpq5Ml.jpg)

It looks quite similiar to these Cobras
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/P-39%20Cobras/silverp-39na_zpsda5a3735.jpg)


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 26, 2014, 07:47:12 AM
Hi Misos,
the seaplane was likely silver.
I suppose your real interest is the Cobra. The looks is silvery, but there are two wavy dark parts on the fuselage  behind the wing that are certainly the original grey undersurface. I think that the plane was painted white, and the silvery look is an illusion due to the nearly horizontal sunlight.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: xan on May 26, 2014, 11:55:25 AM
Massimo , I agree with you.
I saw last year in Lyon's exposition an silvered interpretation of the pic

(http://nsa33.casimages.com/img/2014/04/05/140405035041289032.jpg)

Xan


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on May 26, 2014, 12:30:46 PM
Hi Massimo,
as far as I know, white paint was matt, something like on this Mig3
(http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/mig3/Red02n.jpg)
from http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/mig3/winter1.html (http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/mig3/winter1.html)
Direct sun is also here (hard edges shadows), we can clearly see reflection on the semi-gloss red on the star, but almost no reflection on white, although on this high contrast photo (on "12") white looks quite glossy:
(http://hsfeatures.com/features04/images/mig3tb_ref.jpg)

Here the sun is almost directly behind photographer, one would expect reflection there, but there is nothing:
(http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/la5/chkalov/chkalovf0arr.jpg)

In opposite, reflections on those Cobras are strong. IMHO those Cobras were painted with silver/alluminium color, something like this tail and spinner:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/P-39_Mix03.jpg)

I agree with you that "wavy dark parts on the fuselage behind the wing are certainly the original grey undersurface." Plus, IMHO, aileron on the left wing is not painted, but all rest wing upper surface is painted. Inner half of the wing looks brighter due to reflection of the bright fuselage.

XAN, that kit in bare metal, it is different story. Plus I do not think it had half of the wing painted red.
Regards,
    66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 26, 2014, 02:55:11 PM
Hi Misos,
I suspect that particular conditions of light, as low sun and perhaps some ice on the surface, can give the idea of a metallic reflection on white surfaces.
Look at this image:

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/il2-1942/2vitruk.jpg)

Both the Il-2 and the MiG-3s looks silver. But it's very unlikely that 3 planes of 2 different units in 1942 had all silver finish. So it can easily be a joke of the light.
In the case of MiG-3s, we have strong evidence that the nose of n.12 was painted silver for comparison to n.02 that clearly wasn't.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on May 26, 2014, 04:54:08 PM
Hi Massimo,
here is another Il-2 in (most probably) white looking quite glossy, like silver, in low direct sun (long sharp shadows):
(http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/converted2seaters/takeoff.jpg)
So yes, in cases above, those Cobras included, surface of the planes could matt white, only in some cases it can look quite glossy due to photo quality (high contrast), and/or snow/ice on the surface etc. :(
Regards,
    66misos

PS: Anyhow, silver Cobra would be very nice.


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: KL on May 27, 2014, 01:13:01 AM
Hi Misos,

Just a note: both regular (permanent) white paint and silver paint were sometimes used as substitutes for the temporary white MK-7.  Permanent white paint was almost certainly glossy - there was no white paint among AMT paints.  So, there were basically three options:

1.  Matt temporary white MK-7
2.  Glossy permanent white
3.  glossy, highly reflective silver

MK-7 was the most common, standard winter camouflage.  Permanent white and silver were the occasional substitutes.

Regards,
KL  


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 27, 2014, 06:46:02 AM
No doubt, Il-2 n.2 in silver would be more interesting than in white.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: KL on May 27, 2014, 05:58:32 PM
No doubt, Il-2 n.2 in silver would be more interesting than in white.

Go ahead, make an interesting profile!  :)

I saw last year in Lyon's exposition an silvered interpretation of the pic

(http://nsa33.casimages.com/img/2014/04/05/140405035041289032.jpg)

XAN, that kit in bare metal, it is different story. Plus I do not think it had half of the wing painted red.

It's an old myth, I remember reading about the red wings in 1970es in World War II Aircraft by Christopher Chant.  Supposedly wings were painted in red to help to find planes after force landing on snow.  It was an analogy with polar exploration planes - those had wings painted in red, but in 1950es and 1960es, not during WWII.

(http://fly.historicwings.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/HighFlight-OperationOilDrum2-300x269.jpg)

(http://www.findmodelkit.com/sites/default/files/14671_0.jpg)

Of course this analogy was a guess, far from reality.  High-visibility wingtips were unknown in Soviet VVS during the WWII.  Interpretations in western books and magazines probably influenced drawings published in the Soviet "Modelist-Konstruktor" magazine in 1977.

(http://hobbyport.ru/mkmagazin/avia/mig_3_4.jpg)


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on May 28, 2014, 10:57:47 AM
Hi KL,
thank for interesting info. I definitely abandoned idea of red wings on P-39 or Mig-3 during war time.
 
However, I am still not fully confident with those Cobras painting white :-\
I do not understand why they should paint them with permanent (glossy) white. And then repaint them back with OD from stock or green A-24m or AMT-4, if I (or them) considered already painted surface as primed. Moreover, white spinners on other Cobras look matt, very rare at least semi-gloss, i.e. at http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/photogallery/30giap/index.htm (http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/photogallery/30giap/index.htm) or http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/ovsyannikov/index.htm (http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/ovsyannikov/index.htm)
Ice, snow or optical illusion are also options, but white on planes (Migs, LaGGs, Yaks, Ils...) is in vast majority hard matt under any possible light conditions. I have not seen high quality photo showing such glossy white winter painting yet.
So if there is no clear evidence (close high quality photo, text document etc.) and if I use analogy and probability based on pure statistics, it still have tendency to accept alluminium as more probable.
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 28, 2014, 03:43:45 PM
Hi,
I suggest to make a research on photos of planes of other nations (Germans, Finns) that painted their planes white in similar light conditions, and see if some of them appear silvery too.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: KL on May 28, 2014, 05:23:38 PM
I do not understand why they should paint them with permanent (glossy) white. And then repaint them back with OD from stock or green A-24m or AMT-4

"Substitutes" were used when required "first choice" wasn't available.  They had to camouflage planes, but they didn't have matt MK-7; so they were allowed to use permanent white or silver instead.  Very simple....

Planes camouflaged in silver were repainted in spring, same as planes painted in glossy white.  Because both silver and glossy white were permanent paints and it would be too complicated to remove them.  Very simple again....

Moreover, white spinners on other Cobras look matt, very rare at least semi-gloss

Spinners colour at Leningrad Front and in the North is also a big unknown.  Some are interpreted as white although they look silver.  Some are interpreted as silver, but they may have been glossy white.

When applied on markings, numbers and star borders (permanent) glossy white and silver were treated as equals, as one.  In 1944/45 some factories used silver for star borders, others used glossy white.  This is confirmed!

So if there is no clear evidence (close high quality photo, text document etc.) and if I use analogy and probability based on pure statistics, it still have tendency to accept alluminium as more probable.

As I said, for VVS, glossy white and silver were the same... IMHO, chances to encounter them are 50:50.   ;D

Regards,
KL



Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: learstang on May 28, 2014, 06:03:25 PM
So Konstantin, a silver over blue Il-2 might be possible? Now that would make a brilliant model! By the way, everyone, I just sent off a manuscript of the history of the Il-2 to be published (it was solicited by an actual publisher in the UK, so unless it's truly bad, it will be published). I will no doubt make a nice, big announcement when it's actually published.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: AC26 on May 28, 2014, 09:51:46 PM
I suggest to make a research on photos of planes of other nations (Germans, Finns) that painted their planes white in similar light conditions, and see if some of them appear silvery too.
Hi!

At least Finnish winter distemper wa dead flat. It doesn't look silver at all in the pictures.

Cheers,

AaCee


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 28, 2014, 10:59:35 PM
Hi Jason, what is the dead line to update the drawings in it?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: learstang on May 29, 2014, 01:04:16 AM
Hi Massimo! Thank you for those great profiles! As far as what's in the book, I can probably change some out when I start to make the inevitable editorial changes. I'll let you know via PM.

Best Regards,

Jason

P.S. If you're thinking about a silver over blue Il-2, I'd love to see it - if nothing else, I still have my Modelling Guide to work on and I can now get back to it.


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on May 29, 2014, 05:40:41 AM
Hi Gents,
I would like not to mix Ils in Cobras thread and moreover I think "silver" Il-2 deserves its own topic, so I started it in the Ilyushins section at http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1799.0 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1799.0).
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 29, 2014, 06:40:11 AM
OK Jason, keep me informed.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 29, 2014, 06:43:50 AM
Hi AaCee,
Quote
At least Finnish winter distemper wa dead flat. It doesn't look silver at all in the pictures.
Interesting. Tapani said the same thing.
Now we need an expert of German planes.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on May 29, 2014, 06:14:28 PM
Hi,
there was quite long discussion on Airforce.ru forum, whether spinner, board number and tail are white or silver on this Cobra:
(http://vif2ne.ru/nvi/forum/files/Zaika/(140520234930)_R-39_bn_38_belyj_hvost_Uglovo_maj_1945_kopiya.jpg)
It was identified as Cobra from 403 iap of 2 giak, Leningrad PVO, May 1945.

It is similar to this Cobra from 103 giap of the same 2 giak:
(http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/photogallery/p-39_tikkakoski/airacobra_26_04.jpg)
at http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/photogallery/p-39_tikkakoski/index.htm (http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/photogallery/p-39_tikkakoski/index.htm)

This is final statement of Mikhail Bykov:
"Вообще-то стандартными обозначениями самолетов частей 2 гв.иак ПВО были именно БЕЛЫЕ кок винта и хвост (киль и руль направления) самолета. Эффект "серебристости" на фото, возможно, возникает от того, что сама белая краска глянцевая + при вращении поверхность кока, вероятно, дополнительно "полируется" воздухом."
translated:
"Actually, the standard marking of the aircraft from the 2 giak PVO were just WHITE spinner and tail (keel and rudder). The effect of "silver" on the photo (of Cobra no. "38") may arise from the fact that the white paint was glossy + surface of the spinner was probably more "polished" by air during rotation."
Regards,
    66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: learstang on May 29, 2014, 06:23:51 PM
That's interesting as I would have thought that the spinner in the GPW photograph was silver. It does seem that quite a few of the fighters in the Leningrad area had the white tails. I believe I've seen a PVO Spitfire Mk.IX with the white tail. Was this white tail common to all or most PVO units in the Leningrad area? Do you know if anyone has a profile of this aeroplane? I've always wanted to do a four-bladed VVS (or PVO) P-39, although I suppose I could figure out all (or most) of the colours and markings from the photograph.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: KL on May 29, 2014, 07:38:56 PM
This is final statement of Mikhail Bykov:
"Эффект "серебристости" на фото, возможно, возникает от того, ... при вращении поверхность кока, вероятно, дополнительно "полируется" воздухом."
translated:
"The effect of "silver" on the photo (of Cobra no. "38") may arise from the fact that... surface of the spinner was probably more "polished" by air during rotation."


if this was true we would use hair dryers and air blowers to polish and sand surfaces...  and sand paper manufacturers would go bankrupt!

Do you know what is "sand blasting"?  Obviously air on its own can't sand or polish the surface.  You need something harder than the surface - it is actually all about the hardness.  Harder the surface, even more hard sanding or polishing substance is needed.  That is why sand papers and polishing pastes are made of glass, quartz, corundum, garnets or diamonds (hard minerals...!).

Regards,
KL



Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: KL on May 30, 2014, 02:50:12 AM
Although Bikov says that 2 giak PVO P-39 had WHITE spinners and tail, IMHO Airacobra which is preserved and displayed in Finland has correctly pained spinner and tail.  Its spinner was silver even before the restoration:

(http://www.hs.fi/kuvat/iso_webkuva/1135239397249.jpeg)

The spinner and tail were repainted during restoration, no doubts about that.  The paint and maybe even its texture, are not authentic - but its colour and general appearance are OK.

Our Finnish friends probably have photos of those P-39s that were captured in 1944.  These photos will show how Soviet silver paint looked during the war.

Regards,
KL


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on May 30, 2014, 05:49:41 AM
Hi KL,
this was alreay posted in the Sukhovs's P-39 thread http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1515.msg12235#msg12235 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1515.msg12235#msg12235):
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lendlease/p-39/26.jpg)
Answers to the "Frequently Asked Questions", by museum staff:
We have been asked whether the paint of our Airacobra, currently under restoration, has been changed since the artistic brush marks of its Russian painter. The paint of the P-39Q under restoration has not been touched.
But... Soviet paint is not characterized by utmost permanence...So is there so much to wonder about if something falls off the surface of an airplane in a forced landing and in the ensuing shock?
The museum's aim is to preserve as much original as possible, in other words, we try to maintain the guise in which the aircraft made its forced landing...

So even if Finish silver is not authentic, same like 60 years old original, it is important, that it is silver and not white, yellow etc.

It was also written that silver was approved alternative to white.

I know that paint cannot be polished only with air (also Bykov wrote there "probably"), but I would accept white paint as generally more preferable option. If photo (moreless) clearly shows silver, I will go with silver, like Cobra in Finland. But without such evidence I would go with white paint.
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on June 05, 2014, 07:07:56 AM
Hi,
I just found this photo at propjet forum http://propjet.ucoz.ru/forum/2-60-2759-16-1335379522 (http://propjet.ucoz.ru/forum/2-60-2759-16-1335379522), the best quaily photo of these "shining" Cobras I found up to day:

(http://propjet.ucoz.ru/_fr/0/2447689.jpg)

Painted white? Painted silver? Or not painted but original RAF matt paint removed, i.e. duraluminium?  ??? ??? ???
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: KL on June 07, 2014, 04:30:52 AM
...photo of these "shining" Cobras
...
Painted white? Painted silver? Or not painted but original RAF matt paint removed, i.e. duraluminium?  ??? ??? ???

1.  You should be 100% sure that it wasn't bare duraluminium!  It was forbidden - there were no bare duraluminium planes in VVS....
2.  these are early (British?) P-39s so it has to be winter 1942-43 ->  Less likely to encounter permanent white or silver

IMHO, it's properly applied (sprayed?) MK-7, maybe in an overhaul depot.... strong reflections ("shining") are caused by the low sun and snow glare.

Maybe a case similar to these Mig-3s painted in white in an overhaul depot

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/mig3/slogan.jpg)
 
  


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: FPSOlkor on June 07, 2014, 12:01:56 PM
Story with spinners might be much simpler - if they were NOT painted by US, and generally fit into @white [email protected] scheme, there might be no need to paint them at all


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on August 06, 2014, 11:33:45 AM
Hi,
nice photo of P-39 under overall maintenance:
(http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/9757/69185483.1a7/0_f6811_5a25bcce_XL.jpg)
Note nonstandard font in serial number.
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on August 27, 2014, 11:26:02 AM
Hi,
here are pictures of "Soviet pin-up" painted on P-39 posted  in "A Lavochkin with a pin-up" thread at http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1656.msg15294#msg15294 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1656.msg15294#msg15294)
 
(http://scalemodels.ru/images/2012/12/1356290539_T2eC16JEE9s2ufV-wBQymONFY60_57.jpg)

(http://scalemodels.ru/images/2012/12/1356290514_KGrHqJlFCeqOWhnBBQymslhQoQ60_57.jpg)

Massimo,
I am not decided whether to make profile of that P-39 or colorize one of these photos.
Btw, any idea about color of:
- no. 46 - seems to be darker than (clean) white (e.g. dirty white or yellow or silver?),
- outline of small victory stars and lightning/arrow,
- rear part of the spinner, behind propeller blades - seems to be different from red on the stars, or color of 46, or color of lightning?

regards,
    66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: learstang on August 27, 2014, 07:37:53 PM
Well the "46" doesn't seem silver - no shine. I'm always skeptical about yellow on VVS aircraft so could it be blue?

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on August 27, 2014, 09:39:27 PM
Hi Misos,
it seems that there are only the head and the arms of the woman. She has an hat and a shirt with black around the neck. It's difficult to understand the position of the hands, seems that she is posing with her hands under her chin. 
The number is darker than her skin. I don't think it is dark white because it is in front of the exhaust stacks, so it has to be yellow or blue. If it's the same color of the contour of the starlets, yellow is more likely.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: KL on August 27, 2014, 11:39:54 PM
Another "Soviet VVS pin-up" from http://vikond65.livejournal.com/4816.html

(http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/vikond65/53941713/30041/30041_original.jpg)

it's clearly a page from an American magazine glued onto the plane...

comment from the same link reveals pilots identity and unit:
Слава, на крыле кобры - комэск Николай Цисаренко, 102 гв. ИАП, Ленфронт...
Привет. Валерий (Киев)


regards,
KL


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: KL on August 28, 2014, 01:44:24 AM
it seems that there are only the head and the arms of the woman. She has an hat and a shirt with black around the neck. It's difficult to understand the position of the hands, seems that she is posing with her hands under her chin. 
The number is darker than her skin. I don't think it is dark white because it is in front of the exhaust stacks, so it has to be yellow or blue. If it's the same color of the contour of the starlets, yellow is more likely.

this may help a bit:

(http://s1.violity.com/files/2013/01/16/19/22079_1358357462.jpg)


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Troy Smith on August 28, 2014, 03:08:08 AM
This is one of the two photos I mentioned as being in Red Stars 4.

some great photos of Nieuport's with 'pin-ups' as well in the link.



Another "Soviet VVS pin-up" from http://vikond65.livejournal.com/4816.html

(http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/vikond65/53941713/30041/30041_original.jpg)

it's clearly a page from an American magazine glued onto the plane...

caption
Quote
Glory, on the wing of a cobra - Squadron Commander Nikolai Tsisarenko , 102 gv . IAP, Lenfront ...
Hello. Valery (Kiev)

comment from the same link reveals pilots identity and unit:
Слава, на крыле кобры - комэск Николай Цисаренко, 102 гв. ИАП, Ленфронт...
Привет. Валерий (Киев)


regards,
KL


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on August 28, 2014, 06:30:31 AM
Hi,
this is interpretation of "40" on AML Decals http://www.aml.cz/index.php/en/decals-in-1-48-scale/38-amld-48-020 (http://www.aml.cz/index.php/en/decals-in-1-48-scale/38-amld-48-020)
Enlarged picture:

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_different%20Cobras/AMLD72020Cx_zps95513bda.jpg) (http://s1063.photobucket.com/user/66misos/media/P-39_different%20Cobras/AMLD72020Cx_zps95513bda.jpg.html)
White number 40, no band on the spinner.  ??? Victory stars seems to be red with the white outline. No serial number on the tail.
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on August 28, 2014, 07:09:00 AM
Hi Konstantin,
yes, it helps. Unfortunately I can't understand how hands are. Could it be that she has a small silvery pistol on his left hand?
Hi Misos,
I fear that the AML instructions are wrong on the band and on the color of the number.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: KL on August 29, 2014, 08:43:27 PM
2 Airacobras which belonged to two squadron commanders of the 69 giap:

Shikunov
(http://waralbum.ru/wp-content/uploads/yapb_cache/5_0_b715d_68fe984_orig_cor.2nu7crnx804k8448g0gsosog4.ejcuplo1l0oo0sk8c40s8osc4.th.jpeg)

and Proshenkov
(http://scalemodels.ru/images/2012/12/1356290514_KGrHqJlFCeqOWhnBBQymslhQoQ60_57.jpg)

It is possible that the coloured spinner ring marks squadron: yellow on Shikunov's P-39 and red on Proshenkov's P-39.
HTH,
KL


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on August 30, 2014, 08:19:27 AM
Hi KL,
thank for photos, I already know them, but I am I bit confused differences, although the both are from 69 giap:

1.) Shikunov's no. "61"
- (white?) digits 61 are outlined (red?),
- Alexandr Nevski emblem on the door,
- no arrow/lightning on the side.

2.) Proshenkov's no. "46"
- digits 46 do not have apparent outline. Although on the enlarged photo some outline is visible, but it could be also only compression artifacts,
- no Alexandr Nevski emblem ,
- (red) arrow/lightning with (white?) outline

Regards,
     66misos



Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: KL on August 31, 2014, 08:30:29 AM
Hi Misos,
1.) Shikunov's P-39 had number "21"

2.) Shikunov was photographed in 1944, Proshenkov a year later, in spring 1945.

3.) Nevski order, lightning, victory stars and pin-ups are all personal (pilot's) markings

4.) Painted spinner was regimental, tactical marking.

HTH,
KL


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on August 31, 2014, 10:16:59 AM
Hi KL,
You are right, Shikunov's P-39 is "21":

(http://www.airaces.narod.ru/all0/shikunv1.jpg)

(http://www.airaces.narod.ru/all0/shikunv2.jpg)

I found at http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/102-69giap-online-wargaming-rof-il2-clod/?p=22259 (http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/102-69giap-online-wargaming-rof-il2-clod/?p=22259) that 69giap was awarded Order of Alexander Nevsky on 26.04.1945 for "For exemplary performance of command assignments in the fighting during the breakthrough of the German defenses and defeat the enemy troops southwest of Oppeln and displaying valor and courage."
Therefore I thought that Alexandr Nevski Medal emblem painted on the door was unit marking/decoration, not personal (pilot's) one. Here is another example, pilot Vasily Ivanovich Tchizh also from 69 giap in front of his P-39:
(http://airaces.narod.ru/korea/chizh.jpg)

Regards,
   66misos



Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: KL on September 02, 2014, 12:51:33 AM
Hi Misos,

Therefore I thought that Alexandr Nevski Medal emblem painted on the door was unit marking/decoration, not personal (pilot's) one.

Yes, you are right about the Alexander Nevski Order - Shikunov wasn't awarded with this one.
In this case, Nevski Order emblem is a regimental marking, but not a tactical marking.  It wasn't painted on planes to distinguish them from the planes of other regiments; it was more a decorative element.

KL


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on September 04, 2014, 06:09:18 AM
Hi KL,
I realized now, that photo of Shikunov with A.N. emblem painted on his Cobra is dated to 1944 while 69 giap was awarded A.N. on April 1945, at least according to info I found on the net ???
Regards,
  66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: KL on September 04, 2014, 08:12:07 AM
Hi Misos,
after all, I was right - A. Nevski emblem was Shikunov's personal marking!   :D

info from wikipedia https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A8%D0%B8%D0%BA%D1%83%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2,_%D0%A4%D1%91%D0%B4%D0%BE%D1%80_%D0%98%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%87

О́рден Алекса́ндра Не́вского - Приказ 5-й ВА № 016/н от 29.04.1944
Погиб 15 марта 1945 года. Похоронен на центральной площади города Бриг (ныне город Бжег, Опольское воеводство Польши).

Cheers,
KL


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on September 04, 2014, 12:18:16 PM
Hi KL,
Thanks for clarification.
Hi Misos,
after all, I was right ... :D...
KL
I somehow felt it, therefore I made my previous post ;)
Regards,
    66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: KL on September 04, 2014, 09:20:51 PM
Hi Misos,
an interesting case!
According to M. Bikov's book, all three 69 giap pilots mentioned in this post (Shikunov, Proshenkov and Chizh) were awarded with A. Nevskii order.  69 giap as a unit was also awarded with same A. Nevskii order.

Shikunov (21+1 victories) was proposed for GSS order, but awarded only in 1998 posthumously!  Proshenkov (19+4 victories) was awarded with GSS order in June 1945.  Chizh ended WWII with 12+1 victories and although he scored 2 more victories in Korea he never became GSS (GSS order was usually awarded for 15 victories during GPW).

Regards,
KL
  


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: KL on May 29, 2015, 02:06:29 AM
Photo with Rechkalov and Trud was published in "Ogonek" magazine No 28-29 1944

(https://reibert.info/attachments/2a-jpg.1085189/)

(http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/rechkal17.jpg)

KL


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on August 22, 2015, 01:47:29 PM
Hi,
nice pictures of the "grey" Cobras from 22 giad:

212 giap:
(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1118349&t=1)

(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1118351)

According to the Russian sources it is already after-the-war photo. This Cobra should be of the same grey color as this
Karmin's Cobra from 129 giap, same 22 giad:
(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1118350)

Color of this Cobra from 213 giap is questionable:
(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1118356)
It is late war Q21-25 version, probably winter 1944/45 at that time VVS already did not use winter camouflage (also not the tail of the next Cobra). It laso does not look like silver "serebrjanka". So most probably some grey. Note the propeller blades - they still have original logo and stencils and they were originally relatively dark:
(http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lendlease/p-39/misos/8.jpg)
In this context light blue-grey AMT-11 could be a canditate.

regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on August 22, 2015, 02:30:50 PM
Interesting photos indeed, a grey Cobra would turn into an interesting profile.  AMT-11 is a likely candidate for uniform grey planes. It depends also on the year of the shot.
I suppose that the photos of n.44 were shot in different time, and that the white band was deleted between the shots. Seems that two thin outlines were still visible.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: KL on August 23, 2015, 07:31:23 PM

Color of this Cobra from 213 giap is questionable:
(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1118356)
It is late war Q21-25 version, probably winter 1944/45 at that time VVS already did not use winter camouflage (also not the tail of the next Cobra). It laso does not look like silver "serebrjanka". So most probably some grey. Note the propeller blades - they still have original logo and stencils and they were originally relatively dark:

Why would they completely overpaint a plane that was made in spring 1944 and which arrived in the regiment in autumn 1944 (maybe even later)???

If airplane is really completely overpainted, photo was made after the war: winter 1945/46, maybe even later.  IMHO, this Airacobra looks like it is in the standard postwar overall light blue-gray scheme.  Like overall AMT-16 painted La-9 or Yak-11.

Regards,
KL


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on August 23, 2015, 09:30:40 PM
Hi KL,
I am not able to say from the photo, whether that Cobra is overall grey, or it has blue (AMT-7) under surfaces and only sides and upper surfaces are grey (or bluegrey AMT-11).
According to the VIF there is Chepinoga on the photo and he was tranfered to the other division after the winter 1944/45.
And, IMHO, on the Cobra tail in the background is war-time 22 giad element of the fast recognition - white diagonal stripe, which seems to be repainted after the war, something like here:
(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1118351)
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on August 24, 2015, 07:09:25 AM
Hi,
(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1118356)
note the ceremonial swords. If it's possible to recognize the men and find if them both received an award on the same day, this could date the photo.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: KL on August 25, 2015, 01:59:56 AM

According to the VIF there is Chepinoga on the photo and he was tranfered to the other division after the winter 1944/45.
And, IMHO, on the Cobra tail in the background is war-time 22 giad element of the fast recognition - white diagonal stripe, which seems to be repainted after the war...


Neither of those are proofs that the photo was taken in winter 1944/45.  Chepinoga may have been visiting old friends in winter 1945/46 or winter 1946/47.  ;)

Again, the question is: why would they completely repaint a new airplane?.  Only planes which clocked a certain number of hours in air were overhauled and repainted, not new planes.

note the ceremonial swords. If it's possible to recognize the men and find if them both received an award on the same day, this could date the photo.

IMHO, swords indicate a parade, something like "victory parade" in June 1945

(http://s020.radikal.ru/i702/1305/30/852837c485fc.png)

Regards,
KL


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on August 25, 2015, 04:42:42 PM
Hi,
according to the info from VIF forum this picture:
(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1118350)
is completly unreliable. It was drawn according to the memories, no known photo of that plane exists. Even board number "12" wrong, Karmin had different...

This photo:
(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1118356)
is not reliably dated and it does not show full plane - to compare color of the red star and number "100", whether the number is black or red etc.

So it seems that only this after-the-war photo:
(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1118349&t=1)
can teorethicaly show Cobra still with war-time marking (white number "44" and white diagonal stripe on the tail)
there were repainted during the overhaul, so this next photo:
(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1118351)
could show the final appearance of the same Cobra after the overhaul.

So from the pictures above only this:
(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1118349&t=1)
could be the possible candidate for grey war-time Cobra.

Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on August 25, 2015, 05:43:52 PM
Hi Misos,
Quote
it does not show full plane - to compare color of the red star and number "100", whether the number is black or red etc
I think that this photo darkens reddish colors as faces, brownish uniforms, olive drab plane on the background, and lightens bluish ones, as the sky and the neutral grey supposed on the blades. On this base, I think that the color of the number is compatible with red (and with black, of course)..
Quote
could show the final appearance of the same Cobra after the overhaul.
Here we see two thin dark lines on the tail. This suggests that the deletion of the mark was partial, and made after the grey repainting of the whole plane.
regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on August 27, 2015, 09:14:06 AM
Hi,
here are working alternatives:

EDIT: Work In Progress deleted.

All colors are from http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/color-table.html (http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/color-table.html).

Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on August 28, 2015, 03:41:51 PM
Hi,
The little vent between propeller and nose gear leg as well as wing guns are missning on Cobra no. "44", so it should be either late N (with removed wing guns) or early Q version in standard configuration. This Cobra could be old enough for war-time overhaul and repainting with the war-time paints for single-seat fighters.
The other two fighter regiments from 22 giad used "regimental" colors on spinners/noses at the end of the war - 129 giap red color, 213 giap white color. Therefore, if repainted during the war, I painted spinner blue, same as outline of the board number and diagonal stripe on the tail. I know it is not fully confirmed, but...

Cobra no. "100" is version Q21-25 (4-blades propeller).
...the question is: why would they completely repaint a new airplane?.  Only planes which clocked a certain number of hours in air were overhauled and repainted, not new planes...
Agree with KL, so without additional info I tend to preffer after-war paints. When comparing contrast from the long distance (e.g. small picture), black board number is better visible than red one.
Regards,
  66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: KL on August 28, 2015, 09:50:40 PM
Hi Misos,

IMHO, the two photos of the Airacobra No "44" were taken at the same airfield and approximatelly at the same time - within days...  ;) note the 2-level building with shallow, almost flat roof in the background on both photos!!!  The cover on the cockpit canopy also looks almost the same:

(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1118349&t=1)

(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1118351)

1.  Lower photo also shows that number 44 and tail stripe can not be white - those two elements are not the same as the white outline of the red star...
2.  Blue outline on fuslage number and tail stripe isn't contrast enough  against gray or blue-gray - it's more likely red, same as red star on the lower photo
3.  number 44 is underlined on both photos

IMHO, both the number and tail stripe could be yellow outlined in red or light blue outlined in red

Yellow filter and films with different sensitivity may cause stripe to look white on one photo and gray on the other...

HTH,
KL


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on August 28, 2015, 10:57:47 PM
Hi Misos,
in my idea, none of the photos of n.44 justifies that it has a lighter color on undersurfaces. So i think it was uniform grey, or that preserved the undersurfaces in neutral grey.
Am I wrong, or you've drawn the stabilizer in dark color? The dark thing on the first photo can easily be the  shadow of a crane.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on August 29, 2015, 10:19:41 AM
Hi,
thanks for comments.
l would like to summarize the comments before I spam this thread with another pictures ;):
- diagonal stripe and number 44 have evident outline,
- number 44 is evident free-hand work and is underlined with the (probably) same color as outline,
- red star on the fuselage seems to be without thin red outline, at least I do not see it there,
- for the spinner I would choose the light blue color, as it was regimental fast recognition element,
- for the same reason I would choose the same light blue for diagonal stripe and number 44. It is question whether only spinner or also part of the front fuselage was blue (like red noses on Cobras from 129 giap, or white noses in 213 giap that time). I see there darker line which is not usually so visible on the other Cobras. Is it (red?) line separating light blue nose from AMT-11 fuselage? Also some darker color is around the nose guns (?)

Well, as I already wrote, it is question whether one photo shows Cobra during overhaul but still in pre-overhaul (war-time) appearance and the second photo shows the same Cobra after overhaul (still same locatiom, but several hours/days latter) in her new, more decorative/colorfull appearance.

...i think it was uniform grey, or that preserved the undersurfaces in neutral grey.
Am I wrong, or you've drawn the stabilizer in dark color? ...
- IMHO if repainted grey (AMT-11?) during the war, I would say that final appearance should be closer to the standard scheme, e.g. light blue under surfaces.
- stabilizer is darker by mistake, probably forgotten layer. Thank you for remark.

There were no comments on "100". So as the final version I would take the after-war overall blue-grey (AGT-16?) with the black board number.
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on August 29, 2015, 01:14:11 PM
Hi Misos
Quote
- IMHO if repainted grey (AMT-11?) during the war, I would say that final appearance should be closer to the standard scheme, e.g. light blue under surfaces.
please, compare the shade of the fuselage sides and of the landing gear doors with the same angulation, and then compare the contrast between light blue and blue-grey on the sides of any Yak or Lavochkin. I don't see the same contrast, if any.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on August 29, 2015, 05:36:43 PM
Hi,
here is something for discussion:
- Cobra is overall blue-grey.
- Blue number & stripe over blue-grey surface nicely fits the photo after overhaul, but not the one before/during overhaul, it is too little contrast. Even red outline seems to be little contract. It was probably black.
- So the yellow/orange spinner+number+stripe with black outline could be OK. But did they (in 212 giap & generally) use yellow color instead od blue?
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on August 29, 2015, 07:35:16 PM
Hi,
the shade of the contour of the numbers on the photo is compatible with the shade of the star. Could also be black, of course.
The photo shows a dark ellipse around the guns. It's not the shadow of the propeller.
I can't see the red outline around the star on the photo.
If blue is the color of the regiment, I would go with it. Saturate colors can change look depending on the film and filter, and the sky itself looks very light on the first image.
I don't think that the spinner was coloured. It appears identical to the fuselage.
Besides the cylinder on the top of the spinner looks darker than the spinner itself.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on August 29, 2015, 10:13:09 PM
Hi Massimo,
I went again through the discusion at VIF about grey Cobras and there was said that Cobra "44" was grey and spinner should be blue. Not specific what grey and what blue.
Front landing gear leg seems to be repainted with the same light "grey" like upper surface so it is very probable that Cobra overall was really in one color. Also front leg on "100" is bright, although originally it is dark green.
Cannon tube cover on the spinner and ellipses around nose guns seems to be in the same color, same/similar like red star - kind of decoration ???

I really do not know whether originally white stripe on the tail is only roughly repainted by brush with bluegrey color, e.g. deleted, or it was repainted with some new regimental color, let's say light blue.
Regards,
  66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on August 30, 2015, 08:55:10 AM
Hi Misos,
a change in the shade of the spinner could also pass unobserved on the second photo, given that the number and band appear similar to the background, but not on the first one where they appear white and the spinner doesn't seem so.
I think that the dark parts on the guns should be black or dark grey, to hide traces of fumes.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on August 30, 2015, 09:41:46 AM
Hi Massimo,
yes, on the first photo the color of the spinner is clearly different from the color of number and stripe, but similar to the overall "grey" color. On the second photo the color of the number and stripe does not much differ from the color of the spinner (and overall "grey" color). ???
To make it a bit more tangled here is another statement from VIF regarding regimental colors - red/129 giap, blue/212 giap and white/213 giap:

"That's right, but with two nuances - firstly, by some accounts, 212 giap had yellow spinners and secondly, in the (212) regiment divisional stripe on the tail was sometimes painted in regimental color, on many photos it is clearly not white. The were not seen such deviations in 129 and 213 giap."

I more and more think that there are two different paintings of the same Cobra on those two photos, although photographed at one place but in different time.
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on August 30, 2015, 10:56:45 AM
Hi Misos,
Quote
"That's right, but with two nuances - firstly, by some accounts, 212 giap had yellow spinners and secondly, in the (212) regiment divisional stripe on the tail was sometimes painted in regimental color, on many photos it is clearly not white. The were not seen such deviations in 129 and 213 giap."
the thing of yellow spinner is interesting, but is it confirmed, or is an interpretation of bw photos of olive drab cobras? Eventually, the wartime yellow or blue spinner could have been overpainted grey .
It can be, of course, that the plane has changed its painting between two shots, but the spinner looks the same of the grey surface on both them.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: KL on August 31, 2015, 04:40:47 PM
Hi Misos & Massimo,

IMHO, yellow with red outline is more likely than blue with red/black outline.

Photo below was probably taken with yellow filter:

(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1118349&t=1)

According to http://www.fineart-photography.com/bwfilter.html yellow filter
- "Probably the most widely used.  Offers an accurate tone range in compensating for the blue sensitivity of panchromatic films."
- Lightens yellow
- Darkens blue (sky)


True, on this photo, spinner is NOT white (meaning yellow)...

Photo below was taken without filters but on a film which makes red look black...

(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1118351)

to my eye, spinner could be the same color as number and diagonal stripe.  Yes, gun ports are black/dark gray (or red?)

From AIF disscusion,  22.08.2015 12:00:40
"... с двумя нюансами - во-первых,по некоторым свидетельствам, 212 Гв.ИАП имел желтый кок, во-вторых, в полку иногда дивизионную полосу на оперении рисовали полковым цветом"

"...with two nuances: First - according to some accounts, 212 giap had yellow spinners and second - division (i.e. 22 giad) stripe was sometimes painted  in regimental colors"

So, it was 212 giap and both spinner and tail diagonal were yellow...

Regards,
KL

PS.  only problematic point in "yellow version" is spinner - a good compromise would be gray spinner.  Maybe 212 giap actually at one point switched from yellow spinners to unpainted spinners and yellow numbers and yellow diagonals?



Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on August 31, 2015, 07:21:30 PM
Hi,
thanks for comments and advices. So here are the final profiles:

(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1120856)

I hope I did not forget for something and I can move to another Cobra. ;)
Regards,
   66misos



Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: KL on August 31, 2015, 07:24:41 PM
Hi Misos,
exactly what I have in my previous post.  :)

Maybe 212 giap actually at one point switched from yellow spinners to unpainted spinners and yellow numbers and yellow diagonals?

Cheers,
KL


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on September 01, 2015, 07:42:58 AM
Hi Misos and KL,
this interpretation is certainly compatible with photos.
But, what about this statement?
Quote
To make it a bit more tangled here is another statement from VIF regarding regimental colors - red/129 giap, blue/212 giap and white/213 giap:
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on September 01, 2015, 08:37:34 AM
Hi Massimo,
That statement (and some others from VIF) says that although standard regimental color for 212 giap was blue and divisional was white, there were eyewitnesses seeing also yellow color. And yellow color was seen also in other units (Sultan Ahmet Chan), or on other planes (La-7) that time.
So finally the yellow color seems to be a quite probable option.
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on September 01, 2015, 01:51:44 PM
Hi Misos,
Quote
And yellow color was seen also in other units (Sultan Ahmet Chan), or on other planes (La-7) that time.
Interesting, there is a light shade visible on photos of Lavochkins that was sometimes interpreted as a different shade of red. Is it sure that it was yellow?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on September 02, 2015, 10:06:12 AM
Hi Massimo,
I did not see any yellow spinner on Cobra in personal, but I have read about them in the several ocassions:

1.)
...Proshenkov
(http://scalemodels.ru/images/2012/12/1356290514_KGrHqJlFCeqOWhnBBQymslhQoQ60_57.jpg)

It is possible that the coloured spinner ring marks squadron: yellow on Shikunov's P-39 and red on Proshenkov's P-39...

2.) Cobra of Sultan Amet-Chan:
(http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/amet_h12.jpg)
No known photo of this plane exist, I asked also at VIF :'(
However, description under picture:
"...this Cobra is sometimes drawn with the red spinner, but according to the veteran's memories the spinners on the Cobras from Sultan Amet-Chan's 3rd squadron were yellow."

Back to grey Cobra "44".
Red star on the fuselage does not have (or have very very thin) red outline. No star is visible on the left upperwing, as usual (not always) on the late Cobras.
IMHO there were no red stars on the upperwings, and red stars on the fuselage and underwings had only white outline.
Regards,
   66misos






Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on September 02, 2015, 11:57:27 AM
Hi Misos,
I wonder if it's the same for his La-7 too.
regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: KL on September 04, 2015, 11:43:26 PM

2.) Cobra of Sultan Amet-Chan:
(http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/amet_h12.jpg)
No known photo of this plane exist, I asked also at VIF :'(

However, description under picture:
"...this Cobra is sometimes drawn with the red spinner, but according to the veteran's memories the spinners on the Cobras from Sultan Amet-Chan's 3rd squadron were yellow."

Hi Miosos,

As you have also learned from M. Bikov, the profile is pure fantasy...

Two photos of 9 giap Airacobras you can easily find on the internet, show planes without tactical or individual markings:

(http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/aleluh11.jpg)

(http://warspot-asset.s3.amazonaws.com/articles/pictures/000/004/140/content/002.jpg)

Regards,
KL

 


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Dark Green Man on September 05, 2015, 03:04:21 PM
does anyone have any more info on Alelyukhin's P-39 ?
I have his Yak-1b and La-7 on the build list and would add his P-39 if it is reasonable to attempt it.
Thanks !


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on September 05, 2015, 08:16:14 PM
Hi,
as I wrote before, there is no known photo showing complete Alelyukhin's P-39.
One photo shows Alelyukhin in the cockpit, the second photo shows only the front part of fuselage. Non of them helps with marking. Moreover, on the second photo there are no white/bright details visible on the Cobras in the background.
That profile with the snake is pure fantasy, although reportedly drawn according to the memories of eyewitnesses.
Regards,
  66misos



Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on September 07, 2015, 06:46:44 PM
Hi,
another P-39 to the late war 22 giad serie - now blue-nose Cobra from 212 giap:

(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1122710)

EDIT Sept 9, 2015: Updated profile:
(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1123081)

Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on September 08, 2015, 08:21:56 AM
Hi Misos,
very nice artwork.
Could the prop be black?
I think to see some repaintings.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on September 08, 2015, 10:13:28 PM
Hi Massimo,
thank you for comment.
IMHO propeller blades are grey as in vast majority. Only the color is ragged from the back side (mostly on the outer end and less and less to the inner end), as often seen also on MiGs, Yaks, etc.
Plus black blades had yellow tips.
Best regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on September 09, 2015, 05:22:33 AM
Hi Misos,
I see, it could be a shadow due to the change of angulation of the blade.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on September 13, 2015, 07:23:05 AM
Hi all,
all the recent work of Misos on P-39s of 22 giad has been uploaded on the site.
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lendlease/p-39/p-39.html (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lendlease/p-39/p-39.html)
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on January 10, 2016, 11:03:44 AM
Hi,
these Cobras look very dark and glossy:
(http://waralbum.ru/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/soviet-P-39.jpg)
or
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/sub4/Russ-p39.jpg)
(http://www.redbanner.co.uk/History/Frantic/p39-grab2.jpg)
(http://www.redbanner.co.uk/History/Frantic/p39-grab1.jpg)
Especially "48" is interesting - showing PARM logo and no stencils. Apparently VVS repainting.

The question is - what is that color? Polished spare OD or some VVS dark glossy paint? It does not look like (relatively bright) green AMT-4. Dark grey AMT-12? ???

This is original OD - looks quite matt (in comparison to the USAF blue disc):
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/131204_P-39assemblyinCU_02_zps3199b36d.png)

Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on January 10, 2016, 02:02:28 PM
Hi Misos,
I've found similar photos of P-63 too. I think to have read that they were repainted in AMT-4 or similar in late 1944, but I don't know if this was a positive information or an interpretation.
Else, I think that US replaced their OD with one of much better quality around 1944, perhaps they have sent a stock of new paint to Soviet Union.
The landing gear doors look worn and disuniform.
A wreck of P-40 downed in 1944 shows a layer of Soviet green paint over the original OD.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: KL on January 14, 2016, 04:05:24 AM
Hi Misos,
from what I see, on Oborin's, Kozhevnikov's and on the No "80" in your previous post, nose wheel cover (door) is the same colour as the nose.

IMHO, all 3 Airacobras were painted in 1 colour overall - no light blue/gray undersides...

regards,
KL


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: KL on January 18, 2016, 05:21:59 AM
Hi Misos,
check these photos for "VVS planes overpainted in 1 colour overall"

(http://www.warbirdsnews.com/wp-content/uploads/Bell-P-63-kingcobra_wings-2.jpg)

(http://www.pacificwrecks.com/aircraft/p-63/44-4368/wings.jpg)

Regards,
KL


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on January 18, 2016, 11:04:13 PM
Hi KL,
nice pictures, but they are P-63 Kingcobras. They were abandoned by Soviets in mid fifties and they still had serial numbers. So repainting is not probable in this case.
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on January 19, 2016, 06:36:53 AM
Hi,
I see that red stars on kingcobras are without the red outline.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: KL on January 19, 2016, 08:11:19 AM
Star is probably original factory painted, only early P-63 had transit "red stars in white disc" markings

(http://www.operatorchan.org/w/src/139053559364.jpg)

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/79/58/9a/79589aa7285d2c0399c3922f0f6b1ba4.jpg)

Kingcora's undersides should be NG and that wing is way too dark for NG

KL

 


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on January 19, 2016, 04:03:51 PM
Hi KL,

(http://www.warbirdsnews.com/wp-content/uploads/Bell-P-63-kingcobra_wings-2.jpg)

(http://www.pacificwrecks.com/aircraft/p-63/44-4368/wings.jpg)

Wing on the upper photo and the closest wing on the bottom photo is IMHO the same one - check damages and other surface details.

Red stars with only white outline were painted already in Bell factory. Note how red color is still red, no shift to orange.
Regards,
    66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on January 19, 2016, 04:45:33 PM
Looking into the wheel bay, it seems that the outer dark color was painted roughly by brush.
regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: KL on January 20, 2016, 02:33:30 AM
This Douglas C-47 made forced landing in Siberia (Taimir peninsula) in April 1947.
Fuselage and centroplan were clearly overpainted in gray-blue AMT-11 (or oil equivalent).

(http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/5800/nordroden.2/0_49386_291fad95_XXL.jpg)

(http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/4506/nordroden.2/0_4938d_f622aa23_XXL.jpg)

(http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/4806/nordroden.2/0_4938e_de147f5a_XXL.jpg)

Undersides were overpainted in light blue AMT-7 (or oil equivalent)

(http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/4507/nordroden.2/0_49383_88bda501_XXL.jpg)

(http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/5900/nordroden.2/0_49393_d2fb1975_XXL.jpg)

HTH,
KL


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on January 20, 2016, 07:17:54 AM
Interesting images.
In photos of wrecks of Il-2, AMT-12 fades into a lighter shade.
I wonder if this dark grey could be a faded version of a dark olive color, US late type or a Soviet imitation. If so, it could be related to the color of P-63s. It would be good to see a wreck of P-63, even an US plane, to look as that paint ages.
Note that the prop blades seem painted differently each other.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: KL on January 20, 2016, 08:12:52 AM

I wonder if this dark grey could be a faded version of a dark olive color, US late type or a Soviet imitation. If so, it could be related to the color of P-63s. It would be good to see a wreck of P-63, even an US plane, to look as that paint ages.


On color photos Kingcobras look pretty much the same as Airacobras...

(http://www.asisbiz.com/il2/P-39/Bell-P-39-Airacobra/images/Bell-P-39-Airacobra-in-beautiful-color-courtesy-of-Niagara-Aerospace-Museum-01.jpg)
(http://www.asisbiz.com/il2/P-39/Bell-P-39-Airacobra/images/Bell-P-39-Airacobra-in-beautiful-color-courtesy-of-Niagara-Aerospace-Museum-20.jpg)
(http://www.operatorchan.org/w/src/139053559364.jpg)

 


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on January 22, 2016, 10:15:34 AM
Yes, looks the same when new, but I think that the late OD has a better resistance to fading than the earlier one. I am not expert of US paints though.
The wide photos are beautiful, but create difficulties of visualization and perhaps an increase in traffic. Could you resize them, please?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Graham Boak on January 22, 2016, 03:00:44 PM
I think this may be confusion with the US/UK agreement of common colours, in particular ANA613 Olive Drab.  However, according to the researches of Dana Bell, the USAAF did not adopt these colours and continued requesting Olive Drab 42 as before, before switching almost entirely to bare metal finishes.  Considerable confusion has arisen because, at least  in the early years of the Pacific War, the USAAF did not keep a strong control over manufacturers when it came to colour standards.   Any brand of OD would do - which is why you will see considerable differences even on the same aircraft.  The tail of B-17s was commonly darker and greener than the fuselage, because they were made in different factories.  C-47s could be seen in at least three different colours with the fuselage in a sandy brown, the wing in a greyish olive and the tail in a darker shade.  The fabric covered flying surfaces would be different again.  With the paint coming from different manufacturers, using different pigment mixes, they could then proceed to weather/fade/chalk in different ways.

However, I think the very dark grey seen on the crashed C-47 would seem extreme even allowing for this.


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on January 22, 2016, 05:20:15 PM
The dark color on the fuselage looks overposed to a previous lighter OD layer. I think we all agree that it was repainted, the doubt is the original look of the paint.
About ANA 613, Soviet AF continued to receive od P-63 in 1944. Were they painted with this paint in factory?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: KL on January 23, 2016, 01:22:46 AM
American paints, lacquers, pigments etc were included in lend-lease shipments. but, official documents list small amounts of paints in Lend-lease shipments:
in protocols and shipments lists at http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/documents/files/Part_1_pages_13-28.pdf
there is only

Quote
Lacquer Bakelite   11,200 lbs
Lacquer Black      56,000 lbs

there is a list of material shipped to USSR at http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/pearl/www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6315/lend.html
"From Major Jordan' Diaries" doesn't sound official  >:(  looks like a chapter from a book  ???

Quote
Kalsomine o.c.w. paints, dry           34,236 lbs.         $11,786.
Lacquers, nitrocell clear             13,598 lbs.         $27,050.
Lacquers, nitrocell pigmented           2,276 lbs.          $3,335.
...
Paints, bitimious liquid plastic          --          $188,2?4.
Paints, colors, paste, oil, n.e.s. 2,341,892 lbs.     $279,679.
Paints, etc., ready mixed, n.e.s.    176,211 gal.     $298,321.
...
Chemical pigments, n.e.s           92,583 lbs.       $34,817.
...
Chrome pigments                    51,426 lbs.       $11,746.


MlSCELLANEOUS FOR 1945 ONLY

Quote
Paint spraying equipment & parts           938.
...
Ready mixed paints, stains, enamels       28,622 gal.     
Pigments, chrome l0% chrome                9,374 lbs.     
Pigments, chemical, n.e.s.                12,022 lbs.     
Paint, colors, paste oil, n.e.s.         668,409 lbs.     
Water paints, dry                         22,400 lbs.       
Laequers, nitrocell pigmented              4,650 gals.

IMHO, quantities for nitro-cellulose lacquers, which would be important for Soviet aviation industry are small.  Some of the numbers in this list are substantial, 1,000 tonnes of n.e.s. paint (n.e.s. means "not especially specified")  :o those are not necessarily aviation paints - could be paints for ships, industrial plants etc.

I would say that Soviets received significant amounts of chemicals used in paint production (like 3,300,000 lbs of acetone) and some pigments. In the end, VVS planes were painted with Soviet made paints in shades requested by VVS and NKAP.

Regards,
KL


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on February 09, 2016, 10:21:30 PM
Hi,
another interesting Cobra(s) from http://sputniknews.com/art_living/20150726/1025061931.html (http://sputniknews.com/art_living/20150726/1025061931.html) and http://survincity.com/2012/02/russian-fighter-aces-on-the-lend-lease-part-c/ (http://survincity.com/2012/02/russian-fighter-aces-on-the-lend-lease-part-c/):

During delivery:
(http://cdn5.img.sputniknews.com/images/102506/20/1025062046.jpg)

Already in the regiment - according to VIF it should be 9 iap (latter 211 giap):
(http://i58.fastpic.ru/big/2013/1029/9a/646cbc9fcdd009356d93dc9d135a619a.jpg)

Compare the noseart(s):
upper Cobra has white woman head with the hat plus text "Buffalo..." while on the second photo the hat and text is missing - it could be repainted green (same Cobra), or they are two different Cobras.
Note repainted serial number on the "67" tail.
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on February 10, 2016, 08:10:32 AM
Hi Misos,
nice image. It would be interesting to know if the mark refers to a normal school and is strictly individual, or if there is any military school there that could justify a collective marking. I think that Ilya Grinberg could know this.

I've seen another plane with apparently shining blades.
(http://i59.fastpic.ru/big/2013/1029/47/0d374aa16c469ff76b35f5375e6aee47.jpg)
I suspect that it's only the effect of a gloss finish in particular conditions of light.

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on February 10, 2016, 04:00:43 PM
Hi Massimo,
according to the info from VIF the plane was (or planes were) built from the money colleceted in the School no. 51, Buffalo, NY, e.g. this plane is (or these planes are) related to one particular school.
Regards,
    66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on February 13, 2016, 03:58:51 PM
Hi Misos,
so it's possible that the planes of the photos were not the same.
Anyhow, I think that some license is possible in drawing profiles, if they are explicitely declared into the text.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on February 13, 2016, 07:23:21 PM
Hi,
here are another photos posted at VIF:

(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1178366)
Painting "Lady in V" is on the both sides of the fuselage. Lady's hat seems to have different color and text :Buffalo school..." is missing.

(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1178365)

I guess:
- "V" is red,
- lady is white,
- hat is dark (red, blue?)

Regards,
   66misos





Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on February 14, 2016, 07:08:41 AM
Hi Misos,
so, you project to represent plane n.67, without the inscription and with a dark hat.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on February 26, 2016, 06:00:47 AM
Hi,
I do not know, but repainting colors on all these aircrafts looks very similliar - solid dark color on the upper surfaces and light color on the bottom with (relatively) sharp demarcation line between those two colors:

Bf-109F
(http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z27/marluc_foto/Bf-109%20capturado_Hase48/013ussr05.jpg)
(http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z27/marluc_foto/Bf-109%20capturado_Hase48/Bf109F2_VVS1.jpg)

P-39
(http://rgakfd.altsoft.spb.ru/getImage.do?object=1806240736&original=1&compatible=1)

Me-262
(http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/attachments/aviation-history/583531d1382036503-soviet-me-262s-jn.jpg)

I know it is speculation, they are different aircrafts from the different time period, but they all remind me these repainted Cobras from present days, painted what they had - some green and blue (not grey):

(http://forum.ngs.ru/preview/forum/upload_files/c4ca4238a0b923820dcc509a6f75849b_1b761608d5128cf974911f5134240c07_136222924246_800px.jpg)

(http://i59.fastpic.ru/big/2013/1029/c8/3f037af7f3d35434a477b53021640ac8.jpg)

or with dark grey / black ??? on upper surfaces like this P-63:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fb/Bell_P-63_Kingcobra_on_display_in_Victory_Park%2C_Moscow._Photo_taken_in_June_2004.jpg/1920px-Bell_P-63_Kingcobra_on_display_in_Victory_Park%2C_Moscow._Photo_taken_in_June_2004.jpg)

Regards,
    66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on February 26, 2016, 05:38:58 PM
Hi,
according to http://www.warbirdregistry.org/p39-p63registry/p63-444011.html (http://www.warbirdregistry.org/p39-p63registry/p63-444011.html) P-63 "08" s/n 444011 is a composite build from severa Kingcobras.
Here is another versions of the same aircraft:
(http://cdn.spotters.net.ua/files/images/0000005898_small.jpeg)
(http://www.aosmy.ru/alias/2kill_la-star/lempic/e275b-img_2700.jpg)
Note that Il-2 single-seater in the background, seemt also repainted latter.
(https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/3508/35994105.5fe/0_cd5b9_86c87c03_XL.jpg)
None of them id OD/NG. So from all "fictional" alternatives IMHO most attractive is that dark grey (black) version. ;)
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: KL on February 26, 2016, 07:46:57 PM
I would not pay too much attention to those 1:1 scale models, monuments etc.  I haven't seen a single one that is painted in historically accurate colours.

(http://files.volfoto.ru/2/41082201046445587164.jpeg)

HTH,
KL


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on February 26, 2016, 08:01:23 PM
Hi KL,
my point was that they seem so paint those aircrafts with the paints they had on hands in the present day. Like what they had on hands in fourties. Question is "what did they have on hands in 1943-45 period?"
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: KL on February 26, 2016, 08:33:53 PM

my point was that they seem so paint those aircrafts with the paints they had on hands in the present day.


Paint cost some money and it's usually political leadership of a city or a region or a donor who provides funds for restoration.  Restorers than buy paint they think is appropriate.  Those planes are painted in wrong colours and silly schemes only because restorers had no clue how real planes looked like...

That poor Su-2 model in Volgograd (former Stalingrad) has been fixed and repainted in meantime.  Now it looks like this:

(http://www.excursions-volgograd.ru/pc/excursionimage_pic/img_2896.JPG?1401022837)

Better, but still wrong.

Regards,
KL


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on February 26, 2016, 08:50:45 PM
So if we exclude present days, then
...Question is "what did they have on hands in 1943-45 period?"
According to the NKAP 1943 scheme AMT-11/12/7 were approved for fighters and so (IMHO) these paints were produced and delivered to PARMs for fighter planes overhaul. There was also green AMT-4 used for bombers and Il-2s, so it could be available in some (smaller) amounts also for fighters (repainting USAF/white discs).
So teoreticaly most probable (not only, just most probable) alternative for any overall repainting during the period from the summer 1943 untill end of war is either dark grey AMT-12 and/or bluegrey AMT-11 for upper surface and light blue AMT-7 for undersurfaces. ???
Regards,
    66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: KL on February 26, 2016, 09:32:44 PM
Hi Misos,
what you say applies to Yaks, Lavochkins and Il-2s - mixed construction and wooden planes.  Airacobra was a metal plane...

You may download 1943 "Polevoi remont samoletov" at http://elib.uraic.ru/handle/123456789/5771
Check pages 143 and 144, metal planes were repainted only with oil paints.  Oil paints might have been scarce in fighter regiments/divisions.  Other good quality oil paints (Soviet, US or German) were better substitute than nitrocellulose paints.  This may explain Airacobras in non-standard colours.

Regards,
KL


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on February 27, 2016, 09:04:50 AM
Hi KL,
If we narrow it down to the VVS aeronautical oil paints from September 1943 - 1945, there are even less options:
http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/color-table.html (http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/color-table.html)
Colors used for shturmoviks, bombers and transport planes:
- A-28m matt greyish blue for undersurface (e.g. blue again, not grey),
- A-32m matt dark grey (oil eq. to AMT-12) and A-24m matt camouflage green (oil eq. to AMT-4) for uppersurfaces.
There was no light grey for exterior use.
That green looks usually too light on the photos. So dark grey / light blue is the final.  ???
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on March 08, 2016, 10:35:58 PM
Hi,
another interesting Cobra:
(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1187731)
http://www.forumavia.ru/forum/8/9/3788046170264537798121171695289_6.shtml (http://www.forumavia.ru/forum/8/9/3788046170264537798121171695289_6.shtml)
P-39 from 66 iap in Bydgosc (Poland), aug-sept 1945.
Seems there is a red star also on the rudder. Plus spinner is nicely colorfull - my guess: black-yellow-red-white. And red tips on the propeller blades.
It looks like bright (light bluegrey?) Cobras were not so rare after the war. ???

regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on March 09, 2016, 06:56:34 AM
Hi Misos,
very very interesting.
There is a small number 68 on the fin, hidden between shadows and lights. Two small circles are the lower part of it, the most visible.
The number of the other plane is vaguely visible behind the nose leg of the first one, looks another 68 but more likely another similar number as 66.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on March 11, 2016, 10:09:52 AM
Hi Massimo,
here is enlarged part of the photo from above:

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_different%20Cobras/P-39%2066%20iap_01b_zpsihsxk7hd.jpg)

One red star is on the tail (only rudder), on the fix part of the tail seems to be number 68 and there is visible top arm of the fuselage red star.
Regrads,
  66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on March 12, 2016, 07:11:17 AM
Hi Misos,
it looks enough for a profile.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on March 12, 2016, 11:00:23 AM
Hi Massimo,
there are still open important questions:
- what is color of the fuselage? Glossy/polished light bluegrey?
- what colors are on the prop spinner? White-Black-Light bluegrey-Red or White-Black-Yellow-Red or...?
- tail number "68" is red?
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on March 12, 2016, 01:31:57 PM
Hi Misos,
yes, but one has to guess. I don't think that new things will emerge on the look of this plane.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: KL on March 12, 2016, 08:16:28 PM

- what is color of the fuselage? Glossy/polished light bluegrey?
- what colors are on the prop spinner? White-Black-Light bluegrey-Red or White-Black-Yellow-Red or...?
- tail number "68" is red?



Hi Misos,
IMHO,

- spinner colours are White-Black-Light blue-Red
- fuselage is light blue
- number "68" is yellow-orange

You may exclude "polished" from your guessing - some planes had factory polished wings in 1939/40, but in 1945 this practice was totally forgotten (it required special pastes, tools and it was time consuming...).  Here you have an example of highly glossy paint.

66 iap had a vertical line on rudders as a quick recognition marking:

(http://soviet-aces-1936-53.ru/abc/k/kamozin3.jpg)

(http://airaces.narod.ru/all/p39_66iap.jpg)   

Regards,
KL 


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on March 13, 2016, 08:31:42 AM
Hi KL,
original glossy paint is real option. Question is what paint did they use. It looks like glossy car paint, not military paint for aircraft from that time (summer 1945, no AGT paints yet).
Why do you think that tail number is yellow-orange? It is not contrast enough on the light blue surface? IMHO red is more realistic. 68 seems to have no outline.
Spinner is really colorfull "artistic" work. I am not sure light-blue is better option than yellow.
Note darker tips on the propeller blades. They were yellow on the black blades. But here on the steel grey (note dark stencils) yellow is not contrast enough, red seems to be more probable.
White vertical tail band was used during the war (1944-45). But this is the afterwar picture of repainted Cobra, no white band is on the tail.
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on March 19, 2016, 03:52:29 PM
Hi,
the page of Misos was updated with the articles on p-39s of 212 giap.

http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lendlease/p-39/p-39.html (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lendlease/p-39/p-39.html)

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lendlease/p-39/misos/212giap-19/Pict01-t.jpg)
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lendlease/p-39/misos/212giap-19/212giap-19.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lendlease/p-39/misos/212giap-19/212giap-19.htm)

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lendlease/p-39/misos/438iap-5-oborin/Pict01-t.jpg)
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lendlease/p-39/misos/438iap-5-oborin/438iap-5-oborin.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lendlease/p-39/misos/438iap-5-oborin/438iap-5-oborin.htm)

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lendlease/p-39/misos/212giap-34-kuzmin/Pict01-t.jpg)
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lendlease/p-39/misos/212giap-34-kuzmin/212giap-34-kuzmin.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lendlease/p-39/misos/212giap-34-kuzmin/212giap-34-kuzmin.htm)

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lendlease/p-39/misos/212giap-47/Pict01-t.jpg)
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lendlease/p-39/misos/212giap-47/212giap-47.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lendlease/p-39/misos/212giap-47/212giap-47.htm)

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lendlease/p-39/misos/212giap-56/Pict01-t.jpg)
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lendlease/p-39/misos/212giap-56/212giap-56.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lendlease/p-39/misos/212giap-56/212giap-56.htm)

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lendlease/p-39/misos/212giap-53/Pict01.jpg)
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lendlease/p-39/misos/212giap-53/212giap-53.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lendlease/p-39/misos/212giap-53/212giap-53.htm)

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lendlease/p-39/misos/212giap-44/Pict01-t.jpg)
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lendlease/p-39/misos/212giap-44/212giap-44.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lendlease/p-39/misos/212giap-44/212giap-44.htm)

Plane n.100 of 213 giap was modified.
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lendlease/p-39/misos/213giap-100/Pict01-t.jpg)
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lendlease/p-39/misos/213giap-100/213giap-100.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lendlease/p-39/misos/213giap-100/213giap-100.htm)

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on June 16, 2016, 02:10:59 PM
Hi,
The remnants of two P-39 Airacobras have been recently found in Czech Republic:

1.) P-39Q-21-BE, S/N: 44-3534, crashed probably at the beginning of March 1945. This Cobra probably belonged to 6 giak of 2 VA. It was found near the little city Harrachov, NE from Prague, near to the state boarder with Polland.
Pictures from the crash site http://www.leteckabadatelna.cz/havarie-a-sestrely/detail/64/ (http://www.leteckabadatelna.cz/havarie-a-sestrely/detail/64/)

2.) P-39Q-25, S/N: 44-32665 (4-blades propeller), B/N: ??, 268 iap/310 iad PVO, pilot Grigori Sergeevich Rogachko, crashed on April 13, 1945.
More at http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?p=218382 (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?p=218382)
Plane has been found near village Petrovice u Karvin?, pictures from the crash site http://www.leteckabadatelna.cz/havarie-a-sestrely/detail/356/ (http://www.leteckabadatelna.cz/havarie-a-sestrely/detail/356/)
More info in the Russian language at http://trizna.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=53630 (http://trizna.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=53630) and http://trizna.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?p=522391 (http://trizna.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?p=522391)

This Cobra should be similiar to this one, also from 268 iap (photo from VIF):
(http://www.moypolk.ru/sites/default/files/%D0%A1%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B5%D0%BB%D1%8C%D1%89%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B2%20%D0%98.%D0%98.3.JPG)

Regards,
  66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on February 12, 2017, 11:06:46 AM
Hi,
I just found interesting photos at http://sk16.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1439 (http://sk16.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1439) of the discovery of the crashed VVS delivered from RAF.
It is Airacobra I BX225 from 2 giap flown by E.A. Gridyushko.
Interesting is original green-brown RAF camouflage scheme:

(http://sk16.ru/forum/download/file.php?id=1312&mode=view)

(http://sk16.ru/forum/download/file.php?id=1313&mode=view)

Bottom wing, note RAF roundel repainted by light blue color (AMT-7?) under the red star, which has no outline:
(http://sk16.ru/forum/download/file.php?id=1314&mode=view)
(http://sk16.ru/forum/download/file.php?id=1318&mode=view)

Upper wing - RAF roundel repainted by black (?) color, no red star:
(http://sk16.ru/forum/download/file.php?id=1317&mode=view)

Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on February 12, 2017, 10:33:20 PM
Hi Misos,
really interesting images. By the way, I wonder if the camouflage is painted by brush, I can't see any part where the division is soft.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Spitfire on February 18, 2017, 10:39:45 AM
Great photos, thank you for posting them, Massimo the camouflage may have been painted the same way that Curtiss painted P-40's with mats hence the hard demarcation.

Cheers

Dennis


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on February 18, 2017, 02:29:15 PM
Hi Dennis, this looks likely.
The roundel deleted with black paint is particularly interesting on a model.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on July 13, 2017, 10:24:16 PM
Hi,
here is a photo of the nice Cobra of I.M. Fanin from 9 iap http://soviet-aces-1936-53.ru/abc/u/fanin.htm (http://soviet-aces-1936-53.ru/abc/u/fanin.htm)

(http://modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1313524)

Note (probably)
- red white-outlined belts on the wings,
- red prinner with the white spiral,
- red white-outlined lightning on the engine cover,
- victory stars above the lightning (14? 15?...)
- white/silver board number "24",
- no serial number on the tail,
- looks like late "Q" version without wing guns.

Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on July 14, 2017, 05:59:58 PM
Hi Misos,
this plane is one of the most beautiful Cobras I've seen. I suppose you'll draw a profile of it some days.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on November 14, 2017, 04:30:04 PM
Hi,
I have found this link http://www.mi-psi.eu/cs/p-39.html (http://www.mi-psi.eu/cs/p-39.html) with the skins for the Il-2 simulator, some of them based on my profiles. Really nice to see those planes in 3D.
One of those pictures as an example:
(http://www.mi-psi.eu/cs/pics/p-39n1_56_1.jpg)

Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 14, 2017, 05:47:36 PM
Hi Misos, very nice image.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on August 14, 2019, 03:27:04 PM
Hi,
pretty interesting photo is pasted at http://ava.org.ru/iap/211g.htm (http://ava.org.ru/iap/211g.htm) (pg_monster's page):

(http://ava.org.ru/iap/211g/p39_111.jpg)

Marks of the farst recognition in the 23 giad (21, 69 and 211 giap) - short wide horizontal white lines on the rudder, color propeller spinners and overpainted serial numbers on the tail.

So this should be applicable also to Shikunov's plane from 69 giap:
(http://www.airaces.narod.ru/all0/shikunv1.jpg)
http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/board/index.php?topic=1714.msg15348#msg15348 (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/board/index.php?topic=1714.msg15348#msg15348)

Another interesting note about Shikunov's Cobra from my frieng building another P-39 in 1/32 - look at the little vent between propeller and front landing gear:
(https://www.worldwarphotos.info/wp-content/gallery/usa/aircrafts/p-39-2/P-39N_69GIAP_Schikunov_44.jpg)
https://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery/usa/aircrafts-2-3/p-39-2/p-39n-69giap-schikunov-44/ (https://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery/usa/aircrafts-2-3/p-39-2/p-39n-69giap-schikunov-44/)

And the same could be applicable to Proshenkov's Cobra from the same 69 giap (and also Q version instead on N?):
(https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/p-39-yellow-46-jpg.272143/)
However, are there wing guns at this plane?

It is typical for late Cobras (cca Q-15 and latter). N version did not have it - see green elipse in the picture below:
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lendlease/p-39/misos/rechkalov/Pict06.jpg)

Regards,
   66misos




Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on August 14, 2019, 06:43:00 PM
Hi Misos,
those tails look interesting. Do you think to make modifications to the already published pages, or to make some profile?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: PG monster on August 29, 2019, 07:08:45 AM
Some more Cobras - http://ava.org.ru/iap/25.htm
28 iap, 266 iap and other coming soon :)


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on August 29, 2019, 09:38:48 AM
Hi, thank you for posting . Good photos.
Are the colors of the emblem known?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: PG monster on August 30, 2019, 05:12:30 PM
Hi, thank you for posting . Good photos.
Are the colors of the emblem known?
Regards
Massimo


If you means the shield - I not sure, maybe as the numbers. The order is standard Red Banner.


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on August 31, 2019, 06:48:03 AM
Probably a white shield. On one photo it appears lighter than the spinner, in another appears darker. Probably they are different shades of white.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on September 01, 2019, 02:22:57 PM
Hi,
so here I made a profile of Shikunov's Cobra:

(https://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1520766)

IMHO, it is a Q version, not N, see my comments in my post above.

pg_monster, what was, please, a color of the propeller spinner (and probably also fuselage number outline) on the Cobras in 21 giap http://ava.org.ru/iap/211g.htm (http://ava.org.ru/iap/211g.htm)? I would like to make also a profile of the White 111.
Thank you.

Regards,
   Misos



Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on September 01, 2019, 03:34:40 PM
Hi Misos,
beautiful work as always.
I hope to receive your update for the web page, when possible.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on September 01, 2019, 06:25:15 PM
Hi Massimo,
thank for comment.
Here is WIP on anoter Cobra from 23 giad / 21 giap:

(https://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1520780)

(https://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1520781)

Interesting detail is the reinforcement of the rear fuselage without painting, only NMF.

Still need to know the color of the prop spinner.
regards,
   66misos



Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on September 01, 2019, 07:09:20 PM
Hi Misos,
observing the ruddes of the line, I see a lot of white paint over the od areas. I wonder why they look so badly painted.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on September 02, 2019, 05:39:02 PM
Hi Massimo,
thank you. Here is finished White 111 from 21 giap:

(https://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1521039)

I decided for blue front part of the prop spinner, as 69 giap had red one and Cobras from link http://ava.org.ru/iap/211g.htm (http://ava.org.ru/iap/211g.htm) about 211 giap had white front part of the prop spinners.
Regards,
   66misos



Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on September 02, 2019, 09:40:06 PM
Hi misos,
excellent work as usual. It is strange that there are not visible repaintings of the serial on the rudder.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on September 02, 2019, 10:03:34 PM
Hi Massimo,
Thank you. The whole rudder has different shade - looks like the spare rudder from the other plane and completly repainted. And those white blotches coulf be the remnants of the previous fast recognitions elements... Who knows?
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on September 03, 2019, 02:18:52 PM
Hi Misos, looks likely.
Observing carefully the photo, seems that the rear brace of the star was deleted during the repairs on the fuselage, and then repainted again. Seems also that the top of the star wasn't repainted red at the date of the photo.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on September 04, 2019, 05:27:56 PM
Hi Massimo,
I am not sure that I understand what you mean by "the rear brace of the star was deleted during the repairs on the fuselage..."
IMHO top of the star is slightly disappearing in shining of the glossy NMF reinforcement.
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: PG monster on September 04, 2019, 07:49:34 PM
pg_monster, what was, please, a color of the propeller spinner (and probably also fuselage number outline) on the Cobras in 21 giap http://ava.org.ru/iap/211g.htm (http://ava.org.ru/iap/211g.htm)? I would like to make also a profile of the White 111.

Sorry my late answer. Sadly I havn't the proofs for those spinners, so I don't know. Maybe you right (more likely), mabe not....


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on September 04, 2019, 08:26:02 PM
Hi Misos,
on the rear brace there is a thin white line that seems to divide the rear part of the star, repainted, and the older one. Anyway I agree that it is not necessary to evidence such small retouches on the drawing.
About the top brace: it could be shining, but if it is painted, the shining of the metal should not be visible through. Maybe it is retouched with a fresh glossy red...
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on September 04, 2019, 09:38:14 PM
Hi Massimo,
You are right about the left tip of the star. I will slightly distinguish red color on the reinforcement.

Hi PG_monster,
At your page about 211 giap there are two photos of Lepelenko standing in front of two Cobras:
- white 10 with white tip of the prop spinner and with unfortunately uncomplete inscription "Za Vasju Bxxx". Do you know full text?
- white 77 - does it have also white tip of the prop spinner?
I suppose they both have 4 white stripes at the rudder.

regards,
  66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on September 05, 2019, 10:52:30 AM
Hi,
White 111 slightly reworked/corrected as disscussed with Massimo:

(https://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1521724)

Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on September 05, 2019, 12:59:36 PM
Hi Misos,
it matches the photo very well.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on September 06, 2019, 07:41:58 PM
Hi,
another Cobra from 23 giad - now WIP of Proshenkov's P-39Q  from 69 giap:

(https://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1522202)

and source photos:
(https://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1522203)

(https://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1522204)

Color of the number 46 is apparently darker than white picture of the woman and outline of the star - so is it yellow?
Rear part of the spinner is even darker than number 46. So is that rear part of the spinner, originally painted let's say white, repainted with some camouflage color?  It is relavively bright and glossy, so it will not be Olive Drab. Some VVS AMT-xx paint?  Green on the tail (usually) looks darker than OD, so I used light brown AMT-1. Who knows...
Still missing radio in the cockpit and painted lady between gigits 4 and 6.
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on September 06, 2019, 08:46:10 PM
Hi Misos,
the paint of the plane looks relatively glossy and uniform. No deletion of serials and of national markings is visible. In my opinion it was repainted with AMT-4 green. the rear band of the spinner could be OD or what else.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on September 07, 2019, 07:27:05 PM
Hi Massimo,
there are stencils visible on the detail photo, so IMHO it is original OD. That plane was probably new (late Q version in late 1944), and/or cleaned and polished for the photosession. I also changed color on the spinner from light browvn to green AMT-4.
Plus I made OD more greenisch and darker (as a new one), so serial number and circle under the star are not so apparent.

(https://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1522528)

Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on September 08, 2019, 08:56:49 AM
Hi Misos,
in this way, the AMT-4 for the deletion of markings and on the spinner are different. I think that it's necessary to find another color for the rear part of the spinner, maybe some blue.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on September 08, 2019, 09:52:21 AM
Hi Massimo,
thank you for comment. However, seems that Soviets were not very strict with the paints, they used diffefrent shades:

This bright green over blue disk looks like AMT-4 or 4BO or A-24m:
(https://i.pics.livejournal.com/as_1919/47713503/871/original.jpg)

However, this is repainted by pretty dark green, unknown type:
(https://lh6.ggpht.com/_uSMdZ1Gk_ds/SdWL2GsoyaI/AAAAAAAACkc/1ZtcTdTXlFs/s800/DSC05149.JPG)

Here is nicely visible the difference between that (oil?) dark green and something like green AMT-4/A-24m/4BO:
(https://s3.postimage.org/b0hzu50ar/DSC3053_small.jpg)

So I let it green until proof of the different color appears.
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on September 09, 2019, 06:17:15 AM
Hi,
here is Cobra from 9 iap, renamed to 211 giap in October 27, 1944. This Cobra has several interesting aspects:
- red star also on the tail - according to the VVS standards but very rare on the Cobras,
- reinforced leading edge of the vertical stabilizer,
- and again, reinforced rear fuselage, panted dark green a partially covering left brace of the star:

EDIT Sep 10, 2019:
(https://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1523485)

(https://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1522873)

(https://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1522871)

Text Buffalo Belle is not visible on White 67, neither in this Cobra, co I did not painted it in my profile.

(https://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1522872)

Regards,
    66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on September 09, 2019, 01:35:08 PM
Hi Misos,
good work as usual, but the photo of flying 67 seems to show different hair and/or color of the hat.  Probably some of the marks were personalized by pilots.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on September 10, 2019, 04:24:48 PM
Hi Massimo,
you are right. I corrected/changed color of the hat and replaced picture oin my post above. Thank you for comment.
regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on September 11, 2019, 06:25:41 PM
Hi Misos, you're welcome, as usual.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on September 12, 2019, 10:21:46 AM
Hi Massimo,
when lookingat the spinner od the White 67 it looks brighter the fuselage - seems to be of a different color.
What about something like at this Cobra also from 9 iap? However I do not see here big V with the lady like at White 67.
http://ava.org.ru/iap/211g.htm (http://ava.org.ru/iap/211g.htm)
(http://ava.org.ru/iap/211g/p39_24-9-iap.jpg)
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on September 12, 2019, 05:54:41 PM
Hi Misos,
I'm prone to think that both the spinner and the leading edge of the tail of 67 could be red. They appear of the same shade of the star and the thing on the tail has sharp outlines as a mark, more than a retouch.

The photo of 24 is highy interesting. You can see a couple of thin white lines on the wing uppersurfaces, it is likely that the space between was painted with another color as red. A sort of black or red shield is visible on the nose, and victory starlets over it.  I am prone to think that this spinner was red too, it appears a bit darker than the OD.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on September 12, 2019, 06:21:47 PM
Hi Misos, hi all,
I've uploaded four pages and profiles of your P-39s at http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lendlease/p-39/p-39.html (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lendlease/p-39/p-39.html).
Please, have a look and let me see if all the pages are ok.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on September 12, 2019, 07:16:37 PM
Hi Massimo,
thank you for posting. However, could you, please, put P-39 21 giap/23 giad just above P-39 69 giap/23 giad to have all 3 planes from 23 giad together?
I am not convinced that leading edge on the tail of White 67 is red (kind of divisional/regimental/squadron? elements of the fast recognition), IMHO it is some Soviet green after repair/reinforcement.

At this photo of White 93 should be also P-39 from 9 iap (http://ava.org.ru/iap/211g.htm) - note a white leaning line on the cannon cover on the prop spinner, it looks like part of the spiral like on the White 24:
(http://ava.org.ru/iap/211g/p39_93.jpg)
But big V with the lady (Bufallo Belle) is also missing on the nose of this plane.

So I will make prop spinner red with the white spiral also at White 67.
Regards,
    66misos




Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on September 12, 2019, 09:05:03 PM
Hi,
so here is update of the White 67 - red propeller spinner with the white spiral:

(https://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1524011)


(https://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1524013)


(https://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1524012)
Here is really visible something like painted red shield beneath the red arrow and starlets. How many stars is there?

Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on September 13, 2019, 05:53:47 AM
Hi Misos,
beautiful profile.
I think that the stars on the shield are 10 (3+4+3).
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on September 13, 2019, 06:01:33 PM
Hi,
here is Cobra flown by I.M.Fanin from 9 iap:

(https://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1524195)

(https://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1524196)

That dark blotch on the side of the front fuselage looks like defect on the photo - darker area going also through the arrow, so I did not paint it. There seems to be only 2 starlets in the bottom row, on its right side seems to be square hatch, typycal fo Q versions. And those thin white lines on the wing looks like aid for aiming during bombing sorties, seen also on other Cobras and other fighters - see screenshoths from the doc film about Pokryshkin:

(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lendlease/p-39/misos/59.jpg)

Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on September 13, 2019, 10:30:28 PM
Hi Misos,
I don't think that the shield is a defect of the photo. It doesn't extend over the prop blades nor on the number. There is another thing that extends on the arrow, but it starts on the left of n.24.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on September 14, 2019, 06:57:34 AM
Hi Massimo,
Thank you for comment. However, it is for discussion. I will make a version with the grey shield (on the red shield red starlets will disapear). And we will see how it looks.
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on September 14, 2019, 07:10:29 PM
Hi,
so here we go - here is White 24 with my interpretation of the painted dark shield beheath starlets:

EDIT: see my updated profile on the next page.

I have to say that noseart with that shield is more interesting.
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on September 14, 2019, 08:26:56 PM
Hi Misos,
apart for the color that is unknown, the photo shows that the hood should be asymmetrical, cutten on its left side only. I think that this was, on reald hoods, not to obstacle the right arm with the sword or spear.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on September 14, 2019, 10:38:27 PM
Hi Massimo,
Good point! What do you think, appart not cut off right upper corner, was overall shape of the shield symetrical? On.the photo right side looks sharper, but it could be only illusion due to shape of the fuselage and view from the angle.
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on September 15, 2019, 07:05:33 AM
Hi Misos,
I can't be fully sure because the end of the shield is covered by the prop blade. Looking again, it can be a cut on both sides but it is possible that the one hidden by the blade is smaller. Anyway, the rows of stars are not parallel to the bolt, they are descending towards the nose. If you draw a line parallel to the row, you see that te cuts don't start at the same height, but it is not clear if because the row is descending or because te shield is asymmetrical. Possibly both things, also in consideration of the fact that a real shield has to leave space for moving the right arm.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on September 15, 2019, 07:29:16 AM
Hi,
there is an interesting topic on Soviet P-39 with many photos of details here:
https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235060031-russian-p-39q-airacobra-questions/ (https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235060031-russian-p-39q-airacobra-questions/)
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on September 15, 2019, 06:18:19 PM
Hi Massimo.
I checked heraldic emblem on Google, here are some examples:

old Russian emblems:
(https://cdn.pixabay.com/photo/2016/07/20/18/08/coat-of-arms-of-the-russian-empire-1530851_960_720.jpg)

KGB:
(https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1ZzZdeYsTMeJjSszdq6AEupXaD/3PC-Lot-KGB-Russia-Medal-Ussr-Soviet-Military-Medals-Order-ww2-Red-Army-Badges-Russian-Metal.jpg)

Red army:
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQE8b-bmyh8KA_8peKKQcBwyy2M2wTdx_zbfgSAfhTl5kEvUkCS)

Basically all Russian old, WWII or after war embelems are symetrical - with both upper corners there or cut off. So I will not change that one on Cobra.
I will change size/pozition of the arrow to be in position not parallel to the line of the starlets.
Regards,
   66misos




Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on September 15, 2019, 08:02:01 PM
Hi Misos,
then I think you should change the alignment of the starlets, the central row starts close to a corner of the shield but it is much lower than the other corner towards the propeller.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on September 15, 2019, 08:27:33 PM
Hi Massimo,
here is updated pictute:

(https://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1524611)

All no. 24, arrow, starlets and shield are slightly resized, redesigned and repositioned to better fit to what we can see at that photo. Line of stars is not parallel with the arrow now. As I wrote it is very difficult to deffinitely say what is on the photo due to curvature of the fuselage, low andle of the view and of course quality of the photo itself.
Thak you for your comments and inputs.
regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on September 16, 2019, 06:06:16 AM
Hi Misos,
I've uploaded the page. please check if it is all well.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on September 16, 2019, 10:34:40 AM
Hi,
here is the last Cobra from this serie - Q version flown by F.Z. Lepelenko from 211 giap, 23 giad. Cobra itself is not very interesting. Interesting is the white prop spinner which nicely complement red spinner from 69 giap and blue spinner from 21 giap, all from 23 giad.

(https://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1524783)

(https://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1524784)

Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: learstang on September 16, 2019, 07:15:26 PM
Beautiful profiles of the Kobras, Michal!

Best Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on September 16, 2019, 07:29:09 PM
Hi Jason,
thank you for comment. :D
I saw at Amazon that your new book Soviet Bombers of the Second World War is already out. Looks pretty good, congrats!
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on September 16, 2019, 07:41:59 PM
Hi Misos,
is the inscription unknown?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on September 16, 2019, 10:02:45 PM
Hi Massimo,
I looked for info via google and also yandex.ru at Russian pages but so far nothing.
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on September 17, 2019, 07:02:43 AM
Hi Misos,
I wonder if there is any source with a list of the names of the pilots of this unit. It is likely that the inscription is related to some kia pilot.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: 66misos on September 17, 2019, 07:09:54 PM
Hi Massimo,
I have found interesting page abou 9 iap /211 giap at https://www.proza.ru/2019/01/15/1334 (https://www.proza.ru/2019/01/15/1334)
According to the List of Loses from that page Vasily Ivanovich Belyaev, Guard Senior Lieutenant, Squadron commander of the 9th Fighter Aviation Regiment (gentleman of two orders of the Red Banner, 11 personal victories) was shot down on his P-39 Aircobra aircraft by enemy anti-aircraft artillery in July 16, 1944.

So inscription on Lepelenko's Cobra White 10 could be "Za Vasyu Belayeva", in Russian "За Васю Белаева", e.g. For Vasya Belayev.

Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Spitfire on September 17, 2019, 08:21:44 PM
I'm still following this thread it is a great source of information, thank you for all your efforts.

Cheers

Dennis


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on September 17, 2019, 09:42:35 PM
Hi Misos,
this is just what was needed. A profile of the other side with the inscription will make the plane much more interesting.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: P-39 Airacobras in VVS
Post by: learstang on September 17, 2019, 09:43:35 PM
Hi Jason,
thank you for comment. :D
I saw at Amazon that your new book Soviet Bombers of the Second World War is already out. Looks pretty good, congrats!
Regards,
   66misos

Thank you Michal! Yes, it has some nice colour profiles. :D

Best Regards,

Jason