Sovietwarplanes

wasn't 9 GIAP latter rearmed from P-39 to La-7 planes?

So it should be from 329IAD, IAP not known.

And the next day, August 19, eight fighters flew in the same area to attack enemy convoys. Group-16 fighters with arrows on the fuselage led squadron commander Viktor Orlov. I flew his wingman.

Lightning is rarely seen on Yak-1s flown by Normandie pilots in 1943.  Maybe the "French Connection " can help...  :)

Hi Massimo,
I am too busy now to play with PS. So in the meantime just couple of questions:
- is that arrow/lighting white or yellow? I made it according to the Cobra in foreground. "Z" on the arrow/lighting on "13" is partially covered by pitot tube tip.
- I am not sure that digit "3" is so open on the bottom. Photo does not show it clearly. And that Spitfire has similiar upper part but bottom part is closed. Do you have exmple of such open digit "3"?

...I see the number with 5 digits on the photo. In another discussion on P-40s, I had the impression that often serials of US planes had 6 digits. Could you help me to understand the thing, please?

It is interesting how bright is that repainting. It looks even brighter than repainting on Sukhov's P-39 "50". Again, blue-grey AMT-11 or light brown AMT-1 or what?  ???  I do not think that it is German paint.

EP has made a recent page where there are two interesting photos and a profile of a P-39:
http://www.redbanner.co.uk/History/Frantic/Frantic.html (http://www.redbanner.co.uk/History/Frantic/Frantic.html).
Any comments?

... Note already repainted late war USAF insignias on the fuselage:
...
They came to us from the factory with our (e.g. red) stars.
...
Planes came with red stars. I do not know, where they did it, at the factory or somewhere else.
- Where there no cases that "Cobra" with white American stars flew to the USSR? Could not it be?
No.

P-39Q-30 was the last Airacobra subtype; when was it delivered to VVS and how that fits with the time when photo was taken?
Is that loop antenna related to any specific P-39 subtype?

thanks for correction. Yes, it should be in lower case ("small") letters. I usually see upper case in English written texts. In Russian they add "-й", e.g. 68-й, so full correct designation should be e.g. "68th giap". Am I correct?

There was a photo of a (presumably) grey P-39 at http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=674.0 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=674.0), but now it's gone. Probably it's still preserved in some hard disk.
Regards
Massimo

This photo?

In the spring of 1944, after the 15th Air winning art painted hood karminovskoy "Airacobra" in red color with a recognized ace.

- We are here with a little mechanic painted in your car hood - said Carmine overnight technician level. - That, then, was more noticeable and more beautiful.

In the darkness Carmine could not see anything. And only in the morning understood: his nose "Airacobra" was painted not in the usual green and red.

On the same day the squadron flew Bekashonka to cover the troops of the 2nd Ukrainian Front, and a pair of Carmina - to cover his group. Bekashonok with its pilots appeared over the battlefield just in time: 18 "Junkers" unfolded for the bombing of our combat formations. Slightly taller dive bombers "grazed" 4-109.

Strike Group "Airacobra" took bombers. Carmine, ordering slave cover it, went to the rapprochement with the leading "Messer". But then came the voice of the headphones Chugunova that the engine of his car gives interruptions. Carmine had to send him to their base and continue the fight alone.

"Messer" immediately attacked him with a single machine 2 sides. There was an emergency. Karminskaya "Cobra" thrashed from side to side in alternating counterattacks, spewing fire. "Messer" rebounded, but ammunition is running out. Now followed by a new attack. Without waiting for her, Carmine deftly flew to the side of the leading car and drove almost the entire course of the rest of their ammunition. Aflame "Messer" crashed near KP Field Army. The rest of the triple-109 left to climb into the clouds. Following their "compliance" Carmine Alexander took part and at the expense of mental influence his red nose "Cobra".

Group Bekashonka meanwhile dispersed "Junkers" without giving them bombed, 3 bomber dogarali on earth. It's time to go back to their base and our fighters. But three "Messers" re stuck right carmine. Fly slightly to the side and looked at him. Carmine, waited a moment, suddenly rushed to the extreme Me-109. He rushed to the peak, Carmine behind him. Caught and pressed on, perched close to the tail, and led to his airfield. Now, they say, rammed! The remaining pair of "Messers" did not dare shoot: afraid to get in their way. "Messer" wanted to go through the wing coup, and the height of 300 meters - crashed into the ground. Couple-109 fired from a distance and went Carmine, damaging him screw.

Despite the successful completion of the match, returning to their base, Carmine ordered technique to paint the nose of the "Airacobra" in the normal color.

May 31 there was a fight, the details of which are not blotted out in memory of Alexander Leontyevich and after the war. Rose in the air group "Airacobra" waged by the division commander, Lieutenant Colonel Leonid Goregliad. Senior Lieutenant Carmine on "Airacobra" tail number "12", together with his wingman Freedom flew above the main group.

Six enemy fighters appeared suddenly out of the sun. Couple "Messers", separated from the main group, rushed to the plane division commander. "Goregliad! Thee Attack! - Carmine passed by radio and rushed to intercept. Went into a nosedive." Messer "was in the crosshairs. Fire from all onboard weapons - and the Me-109 broke apart in the air.

After the attack Carmine looked around but did not find Frida. In the heat of battle was lost slave - he was young, has not fired a pilot. Carmine did battle turn and climbed higher. Saw the second "Messer", which went into its territory, and gave chase. German anti-aircraft guns opened fire on our aircraft. Shells hit the wing and cockpit. Carmine was wounded in the leg and arm. The plane caught fire. "Jump!" - Flashed the thought, but, glancing down, he saw leaving the Me-109.

"No! - Carmine decided - will burn itself, but also will not give you leave." Through the pain, he introduced the "Cobra" and into a steep dive, firing cannons and machine guns, catching up "Messer" bumped into him. Shot from the pilot lost consciousness. How was thrown out of the plane and pulled the parachute ring - can not remember. Awoke from jerk reveal dome. The remaining four "Messers" trying to avenge his master died, the wounded pilot fired - bullets hit in the back and leg.

Carmina landed pulled from the neutral area on which it is blown by the wind, a woman - a doctor. While bandaging the wounded pilot, commander of the unit, which landed on a plot Carmine went to the fallen aircraft - the benefit they lay side by side - looked at them. He brought his Carmina planchette coated with her intelligence and 2 "Iron Cross" dead German ace.

P-39 A.L.Karmina
Thus ended this sortie Alexander Carmina. For his feat, he was awarded the Order of the Red Banner. In total, during his participation in World War II, he made ​​221 sorties. After spending 31 dogfight, shot down 19 enemy aircraft in person and 14 in the group with his friends (M. Yu Bulls in their research indicates 17 personal and group 1 victory) .

...it seems that the white part of the rudder was the back one. Where the curvature disappears behind the elevator, the rudder is nearly ended, I don't think that they masked a olive nail of 3 cm.

No doubt, Il-2 n.2 in silver would be more interesting than in white.

I saw last year in Lyon's exposition an silvered interpretation of the pic

(http://nsa33.casimages.com/img/2014/04/05/140405035041289032.jpg)

XAN, that kit in bare metal, it is different story. Plus I do not think it had half of the wing painted red.

I do not understand why they should paint them with permanent (glossy) white. And then repaint them back with OD from stock or green A-24m or AMT-4

Moreover, white spinners on other Cobras look matt, very rare at least semi-gloss

So if there is no clear evidence (close high quality photo, text document etc.) and if I use analogy and probability based on pure statistics, it still have tendency to accept alluminium as more probable.

I suggest to make a research on photos of planes of other nations (Germans, Finns) that painted their planes white in similar light conditions, and see if some of them appear silvery too.

At least Finnish winter distemper wa dead flat. It doesn't look silver at all in the pictures.

This is final statement of Mikhail Bykov:
"Эффект "серебристости" на фото, возможно, возникает от того, ... при вращении поверхность кока, вероятно, дополнительно "полируется" воздухом."
translated:
"The effect of "silver" on the photo (of Cobra no. "38") may arise from the fact that... surface of the spinner was probably more "polished" by air during rotation."

...photo of these "shining" Cobras
...
Painted white? Painted silver? Or not painted but original RAF matt paint removed, i.e. duraluminium?  ??? ??? ???

it seems that there are only the head and the arms of the woman. She has an hat and a shirt with black around the neck. It's difficult to understand the position of the hands, seems that she is posing with her hands under her chin. 
The number is darker than her skin. I don't think it is dark white because it is in front of the exhaust stacks, so it has to be yellow or blue. If it's the same color of the contour of the starlets, yellow is more likely.

Another "Soviet VVS pin-up" from http://vikond65.livejournal.com/4816.html

(http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/vikond65/53941713/30041/30041_original.jpg)

it's clearly a page from an American magazine glued onto the plane...

caption

comment from the same link reveals pilots identity and unit:
Слава, на крыле кобры - комэск Николай Цисаренко, 102 гв. ИАП, Ленфронт...
Привет. Валерий (Киев)

regards,
KL

Therefore I thought that Alexandr Nevski Medal emblem painted on the door was unit marking/decoration, not personal (pilot's) one.

Hi Misos,
after all, I was right ... :D...
KL

Color of this Cobra from 213 giap is questionable:
(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1118356)
It is late war Q21-25 version, probably winter 1944/45 at that time VVS already did not use winter camouflage (also not the tail of the next Cobra). It laso does not look like silver "serebrjanka". So most probably some grey. Note the propeller blades - they still have original logo and stencils and they were originally relatively dark:

According to the VIF there is Chepinoga on the photo and he was tranfered to the other division after the winter 1944/45.
And, IMHO, on the Cobra tail in the background is war-time 22 giad element of the fast recognition - white diagonal stripe, which seems to be repainted after the war...

note the ceremonial swords. If it's possible to recognize the men and find if them both received an award on the same day, this could date the photo.

it does not show full plane - to compare color of the red star and number "100", whether the number is black or red etc

could show the final appearance of the same Cobra after the overhaul.

...the question is: why would they completely repaint a new airplane?.  Only planes which clocked a certain number of hours in air were overhauled and repainted, not new planes...

...i think it was uniform grey, or that preserved the undersurfaces in neutral grey.
Am I wrong, or you've drawn the stabilizer in dark color? ...

- IMHO if repainted grey (AMT-11?) during the war, I would say that final appearance should be closer to the standard scheme, e.g. light blue under surfaces.

"That's right, but with two nuances - firstly, by some accounts, 212 giap had yellow spinners and secondly, in the (212) regiment divisional stripe on the tail was sometimes painted in regimental color, on many photos it is clearly not white. The were not seen such deviations in 129 and 213 giap."

To make it a bit more tangled here is another statement from VIF regarding regimental colors - red/129 giap, blue/212 giap and white/213 giap:

And yellow color was seen also in other units (Sultan Ahmet Chan), or on other planes (La-7) that time.

...Proshenkov
(http://scalemodels.ru/images/2012/12/1356290514_KGrHqJlFCeqOWhnBBQymslhQoQ60_57.jpg)

It is possible that the coloured spinner ring marks squadron: yellow on Shikunov's P-39 and red on Proshenkov's P-39...

2.) Cobra of Sultan Amet-Chan:
(http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/amet_h12.jpg)
No known photo of this plane exist, I asked also at VIF :'(

However, description under picture:
"...this Cobra is sometimes drawn with the red spinner, but according to the veteran's memories the spinners on the Cobras from Sultan Amet-Chan's 3rd squadron were yellow."

I wonder if this dark grey could be a faded version of a dark olive color, US late type or a Soviet imitation. If so, it could be related to the color of P-63s. It would be good to see a wreck of P-63, even an US plane, to look as that paint ages.

Lacquer Bakelite   11,200 lbs
Lacquer Black      56,000 lbs

Kalsomine o.c.w. paints, dry           34,236 lbs.         $11,786.
Lacquers, nitrocell clear             13,598 lbs.         $27,050.
Lacquers, nitrocell pigmented           2,276 lbs.          $3,335.
...
Paints, bitimious liquid plastic          --          $188,2?4.
Paints, colors, paste, oil, n.e.s. 2,341,892 lbs.     $279,679.
Paints, etc., ready mixed, n.e.s.    176,211 gal.     $298,321.
...
Chemical pigments, n.e.s           92,583 lbs.       $34,817.
...
Chrome pigments                    51,426 lbs.       $11,746.

Paint spraying equipment & parts           938.
...
Ready mixed paints, stains, enamels       28,622 gal.     
Pigments, chrome l0% chrome                9,374 lbs.     
Pigments, chemical, n.e.s.                12,022 lbs.     
Paint, colors, paste oil, n.e.s.         668,409 lbs.     
Water paints, dry                         22,400 lbs.       
Laequers, nitrocell pigmented              4,650 gals.

my point was that they seem so paint those aircrafts with the paints they had on hands in the present day.

...Question is "what did they have on hands in 1943-45 period?"

- what is color of the fuselage? Glossy/polished light bluegrey?
- what colors are on the prop spinner? White-Black-Light bluegrey-Red or White-Black-Yellow-Red or...?
- tail number "68" is red?

Hi, thank you for posting . Good photos.
Are the colors of the emblem known?
Regards
Massimo

pg_monster, what was, please, a color of the propeller spinner (and probably also fuselage number outline) on the Cobras in 21 giap http://ava.org.ru/iap/211g.htm (http://ava.org.ru/iap/211g.htm)? I would like to make also a profile of the White 111.

Hi Jason,
thank you for comment. :D
I saw at Amazon that your new book Soviet Bombers of the Second World War is already out. Looks pretty good, congrats!
Regards,
   66misos

Hi,
here finally here is Lepelenko's Cobra from the left side with the inscription "За Васю Белаева":

(https://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1527108)

Regards,
  66misos

(https://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1524611)

All no. 24, arrow, starlets and shield are slightly resized, redesigned and repositioned to better fit to what we can see at that photo. Line of stars is not parallel with the arrow now. As I wrote it is very difficult to deffinitely say what is on the photo due to curvature of the fuselage, low andle of the view and of course quality of the photo itself.
Thak you for your comments and inputs.
regards,
   66misos

Hi,
so here is update of the White 67 - red propeller spinner with the white spiral:
(https://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1524011)

Regards,
   66misos

(https://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1521039)

I decided for blue front part of the prop spinner, as 69 giap had red one and Cobras from link http://ava.org.ru/iap/211g.htm (http://ava.org.ru/iap/211g.htm) about 211 giap had white front part of the prop spinners.
Regards,
   66misos

Tipo? Must be 211 giap. And about the spinner, it maybe not painted at all.

Hi pg_monster,

thanks a lot for correction. I am also not here every day/week, therefore my a late response.

1. White 24 - I sent you my e-mail addres via Messages at this forum. Photo showing "white 24" with 14 starlets without shield would be very helpfull.
    Other questions:
2. White 21 - do you have a photo showing Shikunov's Cobra without Gvardia emblem?
3. White 111 - yes, typo - 21 besides of 211,
4. White 67 - why do you think that "V" was orange or zellow, but not red?

Regards,
   66misos


Hi,
I sent it.
Also I used some your cool profiles (prefer few early versios) at http://ava.org.ru/iap/211g.htm. If you want to add any watermarks or something, just tell me.
and added 2 fotos of №93 (spirale spinner).

Is is original Neutral Grey only looking like light blue due to particular light conditions/camera setup at Ilmatorjuntamuseo, Finland (note well known "Silver 26" in the background), or is it repainted by VVS light blue AMT-7 or A-28m?

Hi pg_monster,
thanks a lot for correction. I am also not here every day/week, therefore my a late response.

1. White 24 - I sent you my e-mail addres via Messages at this forum. Photo showing "white 24" with 14 starlets without shield would be very helpfull.
    Other questions:
2. White 21 - do you have a photo showing Shikunov's Cobra without Gvardia emblem?
3. White 111 - yes, typo - 21 besides of 211,
4. White 67 - why do you think that "V" was orange or zellow, but not red?

Regards,
   66misos