Sovietwarplanes

Hi!

I'm going o with my I-15 model.
I remember you this plane arrives in Spain in november of 1936.
So its colors are the 1927 / 1937 colours.

Massimo, in Camouflage colors for Soviet planes before 1937
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/color-table.html)
you present this colour for undersurfaces paint:
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/chips/light-grey-bluexU-2.jpg) at the side , you put Akan 371 reference.
Has Akan change his paint reference system, I can't find 370 reference anywhere...

Do you stilll think that it's this type of blue?

If it is so, it' will be very closed to gunze H-67 color:
(http://www.peinture-maquette.com/img/p/595-1037-large.jpg)
(http://www.monsieurmaquettes.com/12538-large/peinture-acrylique-h67-bleu-clair-satine-10ml-gunze-sangyo-gsh067.jpg)

at this moment, here is what I done, but it's to much flashy, to close to AII blue isn't it?

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2014/04/02//14040205362714768312117811.jpg)

Xan

Hi,
I think that the color is acceptable in absence of better references. Some of the available exhibits could have become yellowish, as the Po-2 in Finnish museum whose color is close to British ski nowadays, but probably was blue in the '30s. Besides at least one of the blues in the piece of the Spanish I-16 is close enough to this shade, no matter if its origin was Spanish or Soviet.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Xan
The most relevant piece is the following Spanish I-16 Type 10 fragment

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/PALEBLUEUNKMOSCA.jpg)

Soviet paint is probably  ??? the darker light blue, Spanish re-painting is the lighter "sky" blue.  Neither of the two colours can be described as "gray-blue".
HTH,
KL

Thank you to both of you.

So Massimo, you think Akan colour could be a good choise and konstantin you don't...  :'(


about this piece of I-16 type 10.
If I'm not wrong Konstantin, the dark blue cannot be a soviet blue...
I say that because of argument I learn in this forum:

When the I-16 type 10 was done 1927/37 blue was no more used and aII blue wasn't used yet isn't it. At this time rusian I-16 were paint in AII aluminium.
I'm wrong?

Is the only thing we con say is that we don't know about 1937 russian blue color?

Xan

Think of I-16 Type 10 as an export model painted according to the "old" rules.  AII Aluminium was used sporadically on I-16 undersides, more typical for period 1938-40 was light gray.  Montoya says that he has never seen gray or silver on I-16 wrecks - I believe him  :D.


We are 100% positive that it wasn't "gray-blue" and that it was "Light Blue".  If you don't like blue on that I-16 fragment, feel free to make it lighter, but not grayish.  ;)
HTH,
KL  

Allright mister K,
thanks a lot , and thanks Massimo too

Xan

Hi,
it is plausible that the darker blue, perhaps similar to AMT-7, was a Soviet blue of the '30s; in facts this color appeared sensibly darker than AE-9 when the planes were photographed side by side.
This is a conjecture based on this piece only and on some bw photos. Sorry to be not able to write anything more sure, only that none will ever prove you're wrong.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Konstantin!

In a Winter War I-16 wreck was silver undersides, dark green upper surfaces and black engine covers with number 5201517. Was this a Type 5 or a Type 10? It was shot down at M?rk?j?rvi and piloted by lieutenant Ivan Istshenko of 3. escadrille from 145 IAP. (Source: Valtonen book "Hylkyretki? Pohjolaan").

Same book giverssilver underside also for an I-15bis and there exists also fragments of an R-5 with silver/dark green colours.

Cheers,

AaCee

Hi, there is a photo of a fragment of an I-16 wing with red star over silver, photos and movies showing a neat difference between the shade of metallic parts (grey) and the fabric surfaces; in some cases, silver shining is visible on them. Now, I don't exclude that light grey could have been utilized on fabric surfaces of I-16s, but is there documentation about this?
Regards
Massimo

There are other evidences in addition to Montoya's I-16 fragments, so you can use "light blue" with confidence.  I hope you are inquiring about this because you want your model to be as authentic as possible, not to prove who is right and who is wrong.

Who was Montoya?
a republican pilote?
Xan

Something is wrong with that number - if plane was made by Zavod 21 it should be 5 (for Type), 21 (for Zavod), 517 (517th plane of Type 5).  Could be a part number, not a serial number...

Engine cowlings were factory painted in black in 1935-36.  First I-16 that arrived in Spain in fall of 1936 had black cowlings. Later, 1937-38 I-16s had green/light blue cowlings.
Cowlings were painted in black in the field too; that was probably the case with the plane you are mentioning.


I-15bis typically had wing undersides factory painted in silver.  R-5 was most likely an overhauled plane or over-painted plane.  

Archaeologist! He found and still owns that I-16 fragment.

Hi,
I would like to see what ones.
For what I remember, Montoya wrote that there are two paints on that piece: a greenish underlying one, likely the Russian color, and a light blue, likely Spanish (at least on his interpretation).
Now, I think to see three colors, including a darker blue. If this is underlying, it is certainly a Soviet color. But I could be wrong.
At this point, the only effective thing to do is to contact Montoya.
Regards
Massimo

Plenty of thanks, Konstantin!

My mistake: Should read 5210517.


Same book about the I-15bis. Force landed at Suomussalmi in the beginning of December 1939. Green top, silver lower fabric and plywood parts, light grey metal parts and at least upper wing metal hatches black. Stars with 7mm black border. C/n 5275.

R-5 undersurface (tailplane parts) didn't have any other colour than silver.

Cheers,

AaCee

Hi AC26,

5210517 is OK  :)

5 = Type 5
21 = Zavod 21
0517 = 1516th plane of Type 5

0 has interesting meaning.  Numbers were assigned continuously from 1 to 999, and after 521999 they started to add "0" before the plane number.  This means that 521517 was the 517th plane and 5210517 was the 1516th plane of Type 5.

HTH,
KL

Hi AC26,
a bit more that can be drawn from your serial number.
Type 5 production by Zavod 21 by year was:

1936 - 861 planes made
1937 - 1665 planes
1938 - 169 planes

1516th plane was made in mid 1937. At the time of the Winter War it was about 2.5 years old and it may have been overhauled or repainted.

HTH,
KL

Hello,
until today, according to this piece of I-16 KL shows me,

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/PALEBLUEUNKMOSCA.jpg)

I thought the underside blue between 1927 and 1937 could be a quite dark blue, andn so did I paint my I-15 and the I-16 type 5 I'm doing:

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2014/06/01//14060110033514768312283458.jpg)

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2014/08/28//14082812512214768312481841.jpg)

Today, a russian friend of mine , Alex Gorodnichev, who often take part in my french modeler forum "master194", gave ue today very important elements.
I wrote as I thought, that ther was no rest of plane of that period who shows how could the blue color been.

Well, I was wrong.

in 1933 USSR did try with stratosferic balloons to reach the world record of altitude...

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9a/USSR-1_aerostat_5k_stamp.jpg)

(http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/82171207bba7718471efXL.jpg)

(http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/73921707bba83cb89bd0XL.jpg)

the original baloon is in the museum of aviation in Monino Rusia, but it have been repaint without any care, is the star show it...

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3d/Gondola_of_high-altitude_balloon_USSR-1.JPG/704px-Gondola_of_high-altitude_balloon_USSR-1.JPG)

Fout were builted. Between them , one , the fourth never flew and was used for propaganda in expositions...
He was finally offered to the FAI (international aeronautic federation) and ended in the "mus?e de l'aviation et de l'espace" of Paris....

Why told you all that?
Because as it's rotten in the sphere, it was build in 1933 in the 28 factory, the same where were builted the policarpov planes (R-1, R-5 and first I-16 type 5)

So this pale blue was surely the same it was used on metallic plane pieces....

well, here are the pics:

the ballon was first in the reserve:

(http://i81.servimg.com/u/f81/09/01/16/85/urss_110.jpg)

here are better pics:

(http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/210226URSSbleu1.jpg)

(http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/261016URSSbleu2.jpg)

The ballon stands now in the space hall in the Bourget museum:

(http://www.pyperpote.tonsite.biz/listinmae/images/stories/ListinMAE/appareils/ballons/ussr1/pyperpote%20mae%20ballon%20dolfuss%20121121%203.jpg)

the hall is quite dark , so the blue seems deeper, I think the pics above are better...

it seems to me an important discover Alex did, what do you think ?

Xan

Hi Xan,
yes, really interesting. I suppose that someone of your French forum can easily go to Bourget some day and compare the sphere with commercial blue chips to give a match.
Regards
Massimo

Small world!!!  I have recently exchanged several emails with Gorodnichev regarding the Bourget Stratostat gondola and everything I wrote becomes public...   >:(


It wasn't his discovery, it was mine - ask him or ask the museum  ;D

Anyway, Bourget Stratostat gondola is almost certainly still painted in original 1933 light blue oil paint.  It's most likely the largest preserved piece of original early 1930es Soviet aviation paint.

Xan, if I remember correctly, the question was about the supposed light blue-gray that was used on planes in 1930es according to AKAN.  After seeing Bourget Stratostat gondola couple of years ago, I have started (in my mind...  ;)) to question the existence of light blue-gray undersides on VVS planes.

Montoya's relics are also relevant, at least for SCW I-16s...  These relics also show light blue paint, not "light blue-gray".  IMHO, the light blue on your I-15 and I-16 is close enough to light blue as seen on Bourget Stratostat gondola and on Montoyas I-16 relics.  It can't be confused with later AMT-7 and it isn't "light blue-gray" - it is what I would consider as "accurate".

Regards,
KL          

Sorry Konstantin!
Alex didn't told me it was his discovery, I put that just to let clear it wasn't mine, OK ?
Anyway it's a great step in our VVS colors investigations...
About the SCW colors I steel think there were no specific  spanish color , and I think they used VVS paints, even when they repeinted the planes...
I will try to find approaching light blue, such as RLM 65 or RLM 76

Xan
 

It's OK!!!  :)
Alex is a great guy, extremely knowledgeable and helpful.


There is a relevant period document which indicates that aviation paints were produced by a Republican factory during the SCW...  What colours; Spanish, Soviet or French - nobody knows!!!

KL   

All this is interesting. Here is a chip of postwar A-28g. I think it is something similar.
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/chips/A28g.jpg)
Regards
Massimo

I find it very dark...
I triied between germean RLM who are quite light and greyish;
my favorite is RLM 65 (gunze H67)

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2014/08/28//14082811065514768312484069.jpg)

(http://www.peinture-maquette.com/img/p/595-1037-large.jpg)

Xan

here is the first result:
(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2014/08/29//14082904005314768312485295.jpg) (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=14082904005314768312485295.jpg)

(http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/261016URSSbleu2.jpg)

Xan

Hmmmmm???   ???
IMHO, the Stratostat gondola is light blue, not grayish blue!!!
Xan, you are maybe confusing layers of dust and grime with its original colour?

KL 

Maybe greyish is not the right word but RLM seems to me the closest color to what I see dispate the dust..
Xan

Dear friends,
   I recently visited the Mus?e de l'Air et de l'Espace at  Paris-Le Bourget.
   One of the reasons of the visit was to examine the Russian 1933 stratospheric gondola, but I have no good news.
   Before going, I shortly corresponded with Mr. Laurent RABIER, Responsable du d?partement Aviation Conservation, whom I thank, and he stated literally: ?Measuring the colors of the Russian gondola does not look that appealing because this artefact was repainted by the Museum decades ago, at least once. So in my view there is no original color on the upper layer of paint.?
   Of course during my visit I went to see the gondola and all what I found confirms the information of Mr. Rabier.
   In several points the last coat of color has chipped, and you can clearly see that, under the red star, there is painted another, larger star.
 (http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/53/b5/56/53b5568aae1d954caa90746cf7b7a9bd.jpg)
   Under the chipped paint you can sometime see what seems natural metal, and in different points some sort of yellowish grey, but unluckily, the artefact is suspended from the ceiling, it is close to the visitor, but not close enough to measure the colors with a colorimeter or color swatches.
(http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/3d/f4/85/3df485fcb92c9949b1ce09914eb06c5e.jpg)
   The interior of the gondola is hardly visible with the naked eye, but using the flash of my camera you can see that the interior is painted in a color that reminds me of a zinc chromate based protective paint, which could have sense.
(http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/40/8f/7c/408f7c617415a576713d694b2b29ef01.jpg)
   So, while the gondola may have been painted in a pale blue used also to paint the Polikarpovs, we will be able to know it only if and when the gondola will be restored and studied.
   Considering the huge amount of aero ? astro ? nautical metal that they have at Le Bourget, I do not believe that this is one of their priorities.
   However, trying to add something useful about the under surfaces blue paint I promise that I will measure the pale blue colors of mister Akan, and post the results.
   Best regards
Daniele

Hi Daniele,
I've seen your important post just now. Thank you for the warning.
For what I know, grey-green is widely utilized on Soviet/Russian space ships, so I wonder if there is relation with the greyish paint we see under the chipping.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Daniel,
you didn't find any trace of another blue?
beeing quite optimist, we can think they respected the color when they painted it....

Xan

Dear friends,
   sorry to answer so late, but among many other things, I have changed PC, operating system, browser and screen, and I have met many, many more gremlins than I would have liked!
   Dear Massimo, I think that the color could be related, but unluckily the gondola is not near enough to be measured with my colorimeter and I think we should wait for a restoration to be sure.
   Dear Xan, no, I was not able to see any other blue, and being very old and so not so much optimistic, I still remember that the imperial War Museum painted his FW190 like this:

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/1a/b7/fd/1ab7fdf280bbd8f7c1e922da40c4aa33.jpg)

Since then the times have changed a lot?
Best regards
Daniele Righi

Hi Daniele,
new pc, new gremlins... seems an hard time!
In absence of other data, I'm prone to identify a possible prewar blue with the darker shade on the piece of I-16. Old photos seem to show a relatively dark shade, so it could have been not too different from AMT-7.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
   I think that you are right, the two colors are probably similar, and I hope to be able to prove it.
   So let us start a rather long digression...
   Even if I believe that every modeller can paint his model with whatever color he likes, as long as he has fun, I have fun trying to analyse colors in a complex way.
   So I decided to get a colorimeter, that is a rather pricey instrument used by the industry to assure color consistency.
   To analyze some Akan colors I have used a ?Color Striker? produced by Mathai, which can measure color without touching the object, as it is also used to asses the color of female hair to produce wigs.
   I will not dwell in the enormously complicated science of color, but I will enclose the briefest and clearest (for me) description of the CIE (International Commission on Illumination) L*a*b* coordinates, measured by my instrument, that I have found at the address: http://www.briarpress.org/15154 .
   It refers to how obtain Pantone colors but that is valid for other colors too.
?Along with matching visually, we use a spectrophotometer. This device reads and gives you Lab values. You can use the Pantone book as a reference and use the color that you are mixing (printed version) and scan that vs. the reference. This gives you the difference between the two colors.
For instance, if you have Lab values where your L (lightness) is high, your a value is high, and your b value is low, then you would want to look on the Lab image posted.
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/f5/01/95/f50195b27aaa0cecfdf7091a510e8435.jpg)
This will let you know what color to add, based on the Lab values you are getting. Like in the example I gave, if L is high then add black, if a is high then add green, and if b is low then add yellow. Hope this helps!?
   So using a colorimeter will give you two advantages: the first is that the color is translated in numbers, and these numbers are forever and can be used for any comparison, the second is that if two colors are different, it will tell you how to correct them to make them identical.
   Simplifying a lot, and stretching the numbers a little bit, we can say that: up to a Delta (difference) of 1, the two colors are identical, up to a Delta of two, they are very close, up to three, they are close, up to four, they are similar, up to five they are somehow similar, over five they are clearly different for most humans.
   The two colors that I have measured are Akan 83042 and 73042, that are the enamel version and the acrylic version of A II G Blue.
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/3f/56/80/3f568072397d94a41bbea68b884d27ce.jpg)
   As you can see from the first image, there is a small difference between the two, and essentially the acrylic version is lighter, and lacks a little bit of red and yellow.
   I consider the enamel more accurate, so from now on I will take the measure of 83042 as standard, and its value is: CIE Lab: 59.95, -11.65, -5.32, or s RGB 115,151,152.
   It was asked before in this tread how A II G compares with Luftwaffe RLM colors, and here it is, measuring the German colors from the samples in the latest book of Mr. Ullman ?Luftwaffe Colours 1935 - 1945?
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/2b/44/ac/2b44ac4c143b57463af6a0cd5786e37a.jpg)
As you can see, RLM 76 is completely off, with a difference of almost 10
Rlm 65 is only somehow similar, with a difference (Delta) of 4.37.
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/8f/48/3d/8f483d4ecb083d4c662bbc6769e30f6c.jpg)
The best match is.... RLM 78! with a Delta of 2,46 it appears to be close, and it could be used ?as it is? or adding a little of yellow, and just a dash of green and white.
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/51/0c/ae/510cae030c57a88f9f6c82ead3a0f623.jpg)
   Of course this does not mean that Russians have used German tropical colors, or that Germans have copied Russian colors, but simply that the amount of shades and pigments to paint military planes in the last century was limited, so many colors are similar in different nations.
   Another question is if there is a standard color that is similar to A II G as interpreted by Mr. Akan.
   Unluckily there are no similar shades in the FS 595, according to the advanced tool in the site www.e-paint.co.uk, but there are similar shades in the RAL Design color charts, with RAL 210 60 15 having a Delta of only 1,76
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/10/fa/16/10fa16ef9be37ab7f80ba8f6c3c960ed.jpg)
The problem is that buying a RAL Design color chart, that contains 1625 colors, is quite expensive, at 112,50 pounds each, and even buying a single color costs almost 10 pounds
   Having made the study of Akan A II G complicated enough up to now, I will paint other paper labels with the Akan paints 8302 and 7302 for AMT 7 Blue, and post the results, assuming that there is somebody interested ?
   Best regards
Daniele

Hi Daniele,
yes, it's interesting.
In consideration of the fact that two chips of the same producer are scarcely consistent, an approximation with other paints, easier to find, is very interesting. If you find chips of commercial paintings too, this will make things even more useful.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Daniele,
it is very interesting. Surely post, please, results about AMT-7.
Do you plan to make similiar measurements also with greys AMT-11 and AMT-12 and green AMT-4? It would be also very helpfull.
Thank you for your effort.
Regards,
   66misos

Dera friends,
   thank you for your encouragement.
   Yes, I have got several other WW2 colors from Akan, and I plan to measure them.
   And then of course it would be very interesting to analize colors more readly available in the west.
   Measurng colors is not too much time consuming, but, unluckily, i have (too) many other things to do, and so I work slowly, please be confident, but it will take some time.
   Best regards
Daniele

Hi Daniele,
I see, time is tyrannic. We'll wait for your results with interest.
The most time consuming thing will be to find the chips of other paints to compare. I think that comparisons are reliable only if made with the same device.
Regards
Massimo

This is very useful, information I have been trying to match AKAN enamels to the Humbrol, Xtracolor, and Testors Model Master range by eye, it would be nice to see some slightly more scientific information.

Cheers

Dennis