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Sovietwarplanes

Modeling Soviet Warplanes => Colors, schemes, & research => Topic started by: xan on May 13, 2014, 03:13:32 PM



Title: Jose Falco' interview and I-15 colors in Spain during the SCW
Post by: xan on May 13, 2014, 03:13:32 PM
Hello,
Last saturday, Jose Falco failed. He was fighter pilot ( Night fighter) in the republican army.

He was 97 years old.

(http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/164914Falco1.jpg)

(http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/7360/22568014196590932121232.jpg)

RIP and viva la republica !

A book was wroten with his memories but only in French and Spanish

(http://www.aerobuzz.fr/local/cache-vignettes/L300xH477/Jose_Falco_Pilote_de_chasse-36616.jpg)


Pascal and another friend of our, went just one month ago and did a one hour long interview !
If someone understand french, here it is
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXHgv_epPZI


Anyway, we have some important informations.
Falco was almost  blind, didn't ear well but the precision of his memory was amazing...

He flew polikarpov I-15.

He clearly said that russian I-15 were dark green upside and light blue downside.
Spanish made I-15 were light olive green and silver downside...
He told us to that when russian I-15 went to revision, they were repeinted in light green / silver.

Konstantin, when I heard that,I reminded imediately your olives :

(http://www.colourbox.com/preview/2700896-327283-photo-shot-of-green-and-black-olives.jpg)

If we have a look at the date, we can see that the I-15 were  taken from Russian since spring of 1936 until summer of 1937.
Later the transport was too dangerous because of the franquist naval blocus, and they decide to build the I-15 in spain. The first spanish I-15 were producted in 1938.

So, I think and I'm quite sure, that despite of what we can read in many places, Spanish colors for I-15 never existed.

Falco said the russian I-15 were dark green / light blue ; it's because since 1927 until 1938 VVS paint were dark green and light blue

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/XIPMosca-1.jpg)

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/PALEBLUEUNKMOSCA.jpg)

Spanish I-15 were light olive green and silver because in 1938 VVS paint standart changed.
I thing they used russian paints
I could read that all the material to built the factory in Spain were bring from Russia. Ingenior change even the worker's way to pay them, applaying the soviet system.
If they bring all from Russia , I imagine they do the same for the paints...

We

 Pascal to other friend of our and I are mounting I-15 .

Mine is a russian one delivered in autumn of 1936.
It's not finish but here is what it looks like :

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2014/05/10//14051001050914768312223402.jpg)
(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2014/04/15//14041501151014768312150343.jpg)

Philippe a third friend is doing the falco first I-15, the CA-058  built in Spain.
According to that pic :
(http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/929508139471435191.jpg)

that's what he's doing :

(http://roger.ph.perso.neuf.fr/Maquette/I15/73.jpg)
(http://roger.ph.perso.neuf.fr/Maquette/I15/58.jpg)
in my point of view , it's a shame he didn't want to repaint metal parts in AE-9 color...

Pascal will do the last I-15 Falco used...

Do you agree with that only russian paints theory  ?

Xan


Title: Re: Jose Falco' interview and I-15 colors in Spain during the SCW
Post by: KL on May 13, 2014, 08:18:31 PM
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x296/tripala/24-DelanteunMothMajorenlaescuela.jpg)

RIP.
He and other Republican airmen may have lost the war, but they won the glory...


Hi Xan,

Pascal and another friend of our, went just one month ago and did a one hour long interview !
...
Anyway, we have some important informations.
Falco was almost  blind, didn't ear well but the precision of his memory was amazing...

He flew polikarpov I-15.

He clearly said that russian I-15 were dark green upside and light blue downside.
Spanish made I-15 were light olive green and silver downside...
He told us to that when russian I-15 went to revision, they were repeinted in light green / silver.

Interesting and valuable information.  This is first time that I see someone mentions use of silver paint for undersides of Republican I-15s.


So, I think and I'm quite sure, that despite of what we can read in many places, Spanish colors for I-15 never existed.

Falco said the russian I-15 were dark green / light blue ; it's because since 1927 until 1938 VVS paint were dark green and light blue
Spanish I-15 were light olive green and silver because in 1938 VVS paint standart changed.
I thing they used russian paints
I could read that all the material to built the factory in Spain were bring from Russia. Ingenior change even the worker's way to pay them, applaying the soviet system.
If they bring all from Russia , I imagine they do the same for the paints...
Do you agree with that only russian paints theory  ?

The theory is interesting and I can't tell you with a 100% certainty it's right or wrong.  I simply haven't seen anywhere in available literature or on the internet that the shade of aviation greens changed in 1938.  On the other hand, there are documents and information in literature that mentions how new 1940 green paints were actually lighter/yellower than the old paints.

Also, we can't discount Spanish made paints.  Factory which produced paints for Spanish Air Force before SCW remained on Republican territory and it seems that it continued production.  So, if I had to choose between the hypothetical Russian light olive green and possible Spanish made light olive green, I would go with the Spanish made paint.

Regards,
KL    



Title: Re: Jose Falco' interview and I-15 colors in Spain during the SCW
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 13, 2014, 09:17:15 PM
Hi Xan and Konstantin,
in 1938, AII green was introduced on Soviet planes (mixed construction).

As an alternative, the Spanish light olive green could have something to do with this sample of SB (image of Isaac Montoya)

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/spanish/PLANXA-PINTURABK-093-Acopia.jpg)

The Spanish landscape is much more brownish than the Russian one, this could justify a difference in shades.

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Jose Falco' interview and I-15 colors in Spain during the SCW
Post by: KL on May 13, 2014, 10:40:54 PM
Hi Xan,

This photo (could be misleading  ;) ) shows that undersides have changed in 1938.

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/22VHA-8effc17afd034d4951bdf13e865a9.jpg)

Two I-16s in foreground are Type 5 made in 1936 and have light blue undersides.  Three I-16s behind them are Type 17 made in the second half of 1938 and have light gray undersides.
Important for this discussion - green looks the same on both old and new I-16s - it didn't change in 1938.

regards,
KL


Title: Re: Jose Falco' interview and I-15 colors in Spain during the SCW
Post by: xan on May 13, 2014, 10:53:06 PM

green looks the same on both old and new I-16s - it didn't change in 1938.
But Konstantin , I don't understand, you are the one who told me that it have been a change of green in 1938, you spooke about RLM 83 for the first one and a lighter green until 1938...

In the pic, light blue seems to be quite dark, wich would confirm that the 1927/1937 light blue was quite close tu AMT-7...

Xan



Title: Re: Jose Falco' interview and I-15 colors in Spain during the SCW
Post by: KL on May 13, 2014, 11:08:06 PM
The truth is I don't know...   :)

It was a theory that looked logical, but there are no proofs (yet)... and there are some indications that the change occurred in 1940.

In the end your and your friends models will look authentic - we are basically discussing the same light olive green colour.  It could have been produced in Spain (probably originally formulated in France?) and there is still a certain possibility that it was imported from Russia.

KL


Title: Re: Jose Falco' interview and I-15 colors in Spain during the SCW
Post by: xan on May 13, 2014, 11:25:44 PM
I think that my theory is quite logical: all the planes coming from USSR came by ship before in 1936 and 1937: old type of paint.
I-15 and I-16 made in Spain started to be produce in 1938 until 1939 (for the republic): At the same time new paints appears in USSR .
Is it fortuity that bth apply silver in under side , wich is not an usual color ?

The Piece of I-16 is a piece of I-16 type 5 wich was transported to Spain in 1936/37 (dark green and blue, logical)

Xan


Title: Re: Jose Falco' interview and I-15 colors in Spain during the SCW
Post by: KL on May 13, 2014, 11:38:30 PM
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/XIPMosca-1.jpg)

If you are talking about the piece above, it is from I-16 Type 10 made in spring 1938, arrived in Spain approx. in June 1938.


Title: Re: Jose Falco' interview and I-15 colors in Spain during the SCW
Post by: xan on May 14, 2014, 12:46:22 AM
I was...  :(
I do you know all those information ?

Xan


Title: Re: Jose Falco' interview and I-15 colors in Spain during the SCW
Post by: KL on May 14, 2014, 01:07:15 AM
Information about the relics comes from I. Montoya - it's reliable!  He knows where to look for wrecks; there are also experts in Russia who can determine when plane was made by airframe or engine number   :)

Cheers,
KL


Title: Re: Jose Falco' interview and I-15 colors in Spain during the SCW
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 14, 2014, 06:51:35 AM
Hi,
if it was difficult to transport planes by ship from Russia, it was difficult to transport paints too.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Jose Falco' interview and I-15 colors in Spain during the SCW
Post by: xan on May 14, 2014, 11:53:07 AM
When production started there was no more convoy.
But before, they bring the machinery, plans and information and material to build the I-15. They could have carrie paint in those last convoys...

Xan


Title: Re: Jose Falco' interview and I-15 colors in Spain during the SCW
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 14, 2014, 12:54:38 PM
They could... but maybe had more important things to transport. Paint can be produced locally or bought in France.

Massimo


Title: Re: Jose Falco' interview and I-15 colors in Spain during the SCW
Post by: learstang on May 15, 2014, 04:24:54 AM
Rest in peace, Senor Falco!

Saludos,

Jason


Title: Re: Jose Falco' interview and I-15 colors in Spain during the SCW
Post by: xan on May 24, 2014, 12:01:32 AM
Philippe have just ended his Falco's I-15 model

(http://roger.ph.perso.neuf.fr/Maquette/I15/91.jpg)

(http://roger.ph.perso.neuf.fr/Maquette/I15/92.jpg)

(http://roger.ph.perso.neuf.fr/Maquette/I15/93.jpg)

(http://roger.ph.perso.neuf.fr/Maquette/I15/94.jpg)

(http://roger.ph.perso.neuf.fr/Maquette/I15/95.jpg)

(http://roger.ph.perso.neuf.fr/Maquette/I15/96.jpg)

Pascal was in the funeral:

(http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/455784jf5.jpg)


Title: Re: Jose Falco' interview and I-15 colors in Spain during the SCW
Post by: learstang on May 24, 2014, 05:38:46 AM
A beautiful model indeed and a nice tribute to Senor Falco!

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Jose Falco' interview and I-15 colors in Spain during the SCW
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 25, 2014, 04:47:04 AM
Absolutely beautiful.
Does he write any building report?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Jose Falco' interview and I-15 colors in Spain during the SCW
Post by: xan on May 25, 2014, 09:00:48 AM
Yes Were are doing un mini GB about the I-15.
Philippe made the first Falco's first Chato when he was night fighter defending the Valencia harbour, Pascal, who often write here is doing Falco's last one , when he escape to France, landing as fachist troops take the airport, and anyway shooting down two bf109 before he escaped!

A third friend joint us later tu make an  1/72 model of pavlof's plane
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7159/13893696304_7a2b3da6a7.jpg)
And I am doing (I have quite finish and will show you soon) a North front's I-15 in 1937 in my basque Country.
(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2014/05/10//14051001050914768312223402.jpg)

The principal interest is my I-15 came from USSR and the falco's plane were built in Spain (post 1938)
So we paint them in different way, according what told us Falco and what we know about Soviet paint (we are speaking about in an other topic)
No sorry, the principal interest has been the occasion for my two friend to meet and enjoy a exeptional moment with a great man, Jose Falco, one month before he failed
This moment remind me the last scene of Kean loach 's "land and freedom"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTFg-kbZhEM
Come, join in the only battle wherein no man can fail,
Where whoso fadeth and dieth, yet his deed shall still prevail.
William Morris - Chants for Socialists


Xan