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Great Patriotic War Aviation => Ilyushins => Topic started by: 66misos on May 29, 2014, 06:12:37 AM



Title: Silver Il-2?
Post by: 66misos on May 29, 2014, 06:12:37 AM
Hi,
this is continuation of the discussion about possibility of silver/alluminium painted Il-2 from http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1714.msg14726#msg14726 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1714.msg14726#msg14726)

Massimo, I browsed complete Il-2 section at your Mig-3 page. All winter white paintings are matt, only these two planes are glossy:
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/il2-1942/2vitruk.jpg)
(http://wunderwaffe.narod.ru/WeaponBook/Avia/Mig3/Pictures/075.jpg)
and
(http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/converted2seaters/takeoff.jpg)

When looking at theese pictures, I see there several coincidences:
- both planes are photographed in low sun , look at shadows,
- both planes are single seaters - the bottom one has machine gun behind cockpit, the upper one has that part of fuselage hidden behind the wing,
- both have rockets under wings,
- both propeller spinners do not shine same as fuselage, plus seems to have different color,
- demarcation line between bottom fuselage (blue) and upper fuselage is not visible, compare it with Il-2 at http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/il2-1942/il-2model1942wintercamo.htm (http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/il2-1942/il-2model1942wintercamo.htm)
(http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/il2-1942/ski/skigear6b.jpg)
(http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/il2-1942/winter-singles/damagedwing.jpg)
(http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/converted2seaters/14redwinter.jpg)
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 29, 2014, 06:38:45 AM
Hi Misos,
this is right, but you have also to consider the light: looking at the shadows, the'silver' planes are lightened by low clean sun, while the other ones have high sun or cloudy.
I have still some photos of silver-looking Ils, I'll upload as soon as possible.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: 66misos on May 29, 2014, 09:21:57 AM
Hi Massimo,
yes, clear sun can make miracles. Anyhow, here, on these Su-2, is nice direct comparison od matt white (over green) vs. overall gloss white, or more probably silver:

(http://crimso.msk.ru/Images6/AV/AV09-1/17-1.jpg)

Regards,
    66misos


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: KL on May 29, 2014, 08:39:59 PM
It looks that the silver? Il-2 No 2 belonged to 65 shap and that the photo was taken in Dec 1941.  It was the Western Front, not the North Front.  More photos of 65 shap Il-2s in winter camouflage are available at http://vif2ne.ru/nvi/forum/arhprint/130854

(http://vif2ne.ru/nvi/forum/files/Zaika/(100905192404)_Il-2_rulit_mimo_MiG-3kopirovanie.jpg)

At that time commander of the regiment was A.N. Vitruk, later a GSS and a general.

(http://vif2ne.ru/nvi/forum/files/Zaika/(100905192413)_Il-2_rulit_na_startkopirovanie.jpg)

(http://vif2ne.ru/nvi/forum/files/Zaika/(100905192353)_doklad_u_Il-2kopirovanie.jpg)

(http://vif2ne.ru/nvi/forum/files/Zaika/(100905192439)_podveska_bomb_na_Il-2kopirovanie.jpg)

(http://vif2ne.ru/nvi/forum/files/Zaika/(100905192458)_postanovka_zadachi_2kopirovanie.jpg)

(http://vif2ne.ru/nvi/forum/files/Zaika/(100905192505)_postanovka_zadachikopirovanie.jpg)

(http://vif2ne.ru/nvi/forum/files/Zaika/(100905192510)_tri_pilota_u_gorbatogokopirovanie.jpg)


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 29, 2014, 10:09:29 PM
Hi,
just the photos I was thinking to post!
Two of the photos give really the idea of silver paint. But again horizontal light...
The Su-2 is certainly silver.
I'm sure to have seen a movie with a shining Pe-2, I don't know if I can find it again.
Regards
Massimo



Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: 66misos on May 30, 2014, 06:10:36 AM
Hi KL,
thanks for wonderfull photos. That Il-2 "2" looks really differently from those other Il-2s painted white "in standard" rough way. Compare it with the second photo you posted - overall view on another Il-2.
Although I am not sure with the third photo (plane with covered engine) - nice overal paint, but it does not look like silver, at least spinner ??? This was spayed, look at propeller blade.
But photos 5 and 6 - look at the spinner and prop. blades. Clear, sharp edges, it looks like painted with brush.
regards,
    66misos


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: KL on May 30, 2014, 06:26:39 PM
Hi Misos,
This photo is interesting:
(http://www.photoarchive.spb.ru/getImage.do?object=2531550658&compatible=1&original=1)

Front part of the spinner is painted in permanent (glossy) white as unit quick recognition marking.  rear part of the spinner is painted with temporary/washable (matte) MK-7

On the photo bellow, spinner is probably matte, light blue AMT-7, same as undersides.  Fuselage behind it is matte temp MK-7

Leningrad Front, Feb 1943
(http://www.photoarchive.spb.ru/getImage.do?object=2531586203&compatible=1&original=1)

This photo is labeled as Leningrad Front, Mar 1943.  IMHO, it isn't white!!!
(http://www.photoarchive.spb.ru/getImage.do?object=2520107454&compatible=1&original=1)

What colour is it??


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: learstang on May 30, 2014, 06:50:59 PM
Konstantin, that last photograph looks silver to me. Interesting - after all this time researching the Il-2, I never knew about the possibility of silver painted Il-2's. Another item for my modelling guide, if I ever finish it.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: KL on May 30, 2014, 08:32:31 PM
Hi Jason,
yes, silver was an option.  But, my guess is that it didn't appear often on IL-2s.  IMHO, photographic evidence shows that field applied MK-7 was the most common type of winter camouflage even during the winter 1941-42.  Some of those Il-2s that on photos look silver may have been the new planes with factory sprayed MK-7... probably the case with the last plane in my last post.  My guess is also that the probability to see a silver winter camouflaged plane was extremely small after the winter 1942-43.

Still it would be nice to see a "silver over light blue" winter camouflaged Il-2 profile.  That single-seater with rudder number 2 is a good candidate:  There is a reasonably convincing photo, time is OK (Dec 1941 or Jan 1942 - it could be one of those planes that were overhauled in winter 1941-42).

Regards,
KL  


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: 66misos on May 30, 2014, 10:47:22 PM
Hi,
so I have the final candidate, I will try to colorize photo of that Il-2 "2". But before I have to somehow remove that Zaika watermark :-\
Regards,
    66misos


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 30, 2014, 10:54:48 PM
Hi,
this Il-2 of 1943 really looks silver.
Misos, the restoration of the photo before colorizing looks an hard work. Anyway I'm very interested to see the result.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: 66misos on June 01, 2014, 12:35:26 PM
Hi,
here is adapted souce photo, starting point for colorization. It is focused on Il-2, parts of Mig-3 in foreground removed, slightly cleaned, watermark removed.

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Il-2/140601_Il-dvastrieb_00_zps387b4641.jpg)

Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 01, 2014, 07:04:34 PM
Hi Misos, the cleaning of the watermark is well made, but the image requires still much work. Perhaps there is some other version of the photo to cut and paste the nose.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 01, 2014, 10:49:20 PM
Hi all,
here is the profile (small)
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/il2-1942/winter-singles/il2-sp-fl-aml-3view-col-2vitruk-p.jpg)
and the link to the larger image
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/il2-1942/winter-singles/il2-sp-fl-aml-3view-col-2vitruk.jpg (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/il2-1942/winter-singles/il2-sp-fl-aml-3view-col-2vitruk.jpg)

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: Walker on June 01, 2014, 10:53:09 PM
(http://propjet.ucoz.ru/_fr/0/9028663.jpg)


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: KL on June 01, 2014, 10:58:08 PM
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/il2-1942/winter-singles/il2-sp-fl-aml-3view-col-2vitruk-p.jpg)

Hi Massimo,
not bad, but it looks to gray or too dark for what I like to call "metallic white".

I would make it lighter and add more and stronger reflections.  Real Soviet silver is like mirror.
Undersides should be lighter blue, ie. AII Light Blue as seen in Vesivehma.  December 1941 is too early for AMT-7...

Regards,
KL


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 02, 2014, 08:42:04 AM
Hi,
hi Walker,
beautiful photo. It's interesting to see that the truck is under the same light, but doesn't shine.
Hi Konstantin,
ok, lighter shades.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: 66misos on June 02, 2014, 10:25:22 AM
Hi Massimo,
probably shadows could be darker, while reflections/shining could be more bright/white. Now it looks like semi-gloss light grey.
Propeller spinner of the "silver" Il-2 no. "2" has level of shinning different from the (near) fuselage. Could it be white or light blue?
Regarding colorized photo - after initial euphoria there is a bit disillusion about quality of the photo. There is a lot of compression artifacts with minimum details, completely different league from VVS Bf-109G2. If I compare them to plastic kits, Bf-109G2 would be like Tamiya with Aires, Eduard aftermarket add-ons while this Il-2 "2" would by like low-end shortrun. Anyhow I am curious how successful I will be with "silver" surface. ;)
Regards,
    66misos


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 02, 2014, 01:30:22 PM
Hi Misos,
yes, but it depends on the background. If silver reflects a sunny day there will be more contrast than reflecting a covered day where the snowy background and the cloudy sky can barely be distinguished. So, you can consider this as the same plane in a cloudy day.
The spinner... I've suspected the same, but probably it depends on the fact that the spinner has a different inclination (when seen from above) and isn't reflecting the low sun.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: KL on June 02, 2014, 08:45:35 PM
Hi Massimo,
light blue on wing undersides and landing gear nacelle is excellent.  IMHO, fuselage underside blue still looks dark (although in shadow, it should be similar to wing underside).

Silver looks good if you know that the plane was supposed to be silver; otherwise it looks almost as standard white winter camouflage.   :-X  So, I was probably wrong with lighter gray...  (I am not an artist)

Maybe something like this:

(http://www.amalco.com/images/hydroformed-deepdrawn-metal/product-5.png)

(http://www.newhousetextiles.co.uk/shopimages/products/extra/DA-102-2.jpg)

If this helps, FS 17178 is fairly close to AII Aluminium.
Regards,
KL


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 02, 2014, 10:26:12 PM
Hi Konstantin,
I've modified again. Hopefully for the last time.
The blue of the undersurfaces is of two different shades, presumably AII blue for wooden parts and A-18f for metallic ones. The difference is visible on Il-2s of 1941 and on MiG-3s.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: learstang on June 03, 2014, 08:58:54 PM
Musa, what's that pipe on the starboard side of the engine on that photograph you posted? I've never seen anything like that before on an Il-2. Anybody have any ideas? By the way, great-looking profile, Massimo!

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: KL on June 03, 2014, 09:22:00 PM
According to http://www.allaces.ru/cgi-bin/s2.cgi/sssr/struct/p/shap65.dat
65 shap was divided in two (not clear when, probably in summer 1941), two squadrons commanded by Vitruk were armed with Il-2s and sent to Moscow.  Remaining part was active on the Karelian Front. Most likely it was armed with I-15bis shturmovics.

Thanks for the photo Musa!  It looks the two photos were taken on same occasion, could be the same plane  ???

(http://propjet.ucoz.ru/_fr/0/9028663.jpg)

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Il-2/140601_Il-dvastrieb_00_zps387b4641.jpg)

Wondering, maybe these are 120 iap MiG-3s photographed on the same day?
(http://waralbum.ru/wp-content/uploads/yapb_cache/mig_3.dw0slg07hjc4o8go4g4c4c80w.ejcuplo1l0oo0sk8c40s8osc4.th.jpeg)

(http://vspomniv.ru/userfiles/mig_3_01.gif)

(http://www.balancer.ru/forum/punbb/attachment.php?item=382092&download=2&type=.jpg)


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 03, 2014, 10:38:46 PM
Hi,
the Il-2 could be the same plane.
About the MiG-3s: I don't think, at last for the last one. White MiGs of 120 IAP had a number on their fin, at least in March .
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/mig3/foto12.jpg)
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: 66misos on June 04, 2014, 05:32:48 AM
Hi,
interesting replies at Airforce.ru forum on my question "Il-2 white or silver?":

Alex: "Оранжевый. К фото причастен человек Заика - там написано."
          Orange. Man Zaika (Bunny?) involved in the photo - it is written there.

alnik: "Как бронекорпус может быть "алюминиевым"? Белый однозначно. Без вариантов. А при желании-хоть фиолетовым можно назвать."
         How the hull/fuselage can be "aluminum"? White unequivocally. No options. And if you want it can be even violet.

regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: learstang on June 04, 2014, 05:54:22 AM
I vote for orange. Or violet (lavender, maybe?).

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: 66misos on June 04, 2014, 06:55:50 AM
Hi,
here is fast colorizing according to the "specification"  ;):

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Il-2/140604_Il-dvaorn_02_zpse0a4a140.jpg)
 :D :D :D

   66misos


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: learstang on June 04, 2014, 07:00:21 AM
That's it, that's perfect! The Germans were laughing so hard they couldn't shoot at it!

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 04, 2014, 07:12:00 AM
Hi Misos,
funny enough, but rather prejudicial as answers.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: Walker on June 04, 2014, 07:45:34 AM
Musa, what's that pipe on the starboard side of the engine on that photograph you posted? I've never seen anything like that before on an Il-2.

It's Pitot tube.


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: 66misos on June 04, 2014, 01:00:19 PM
Hi,
I just received the reply on scalemodels.ru pointing at the same discussion "white vs. silver" at propjet.ucoz.ru forum http://propjet.ucoz.ru/forum/2-60-16161-16-1397052492 (http://propjet.ucoz.ru/forum/2-60-16161-16-1397052492) started on April 9th, 2014.
According to the discussion and VVS documents posted there the alluminium paint was real alternative, at least generally. One post from yesterday gives a link
http://www.muzeumlotnictwa.pl/index.php/digitalizacja/katalog/1771 (http://www.muzeumlotnictwa.pl/index.php/digitalizacja/katalog/1771) - one picture there shows "silver" VVS DC-3:
(http://www.muzeumlotnictwa.pl/digitalizacja_archiwaliow/katalog/1771/7.jpg)
Another post from yesterday shows the same photo of Il-2 "2" as from the beginning of this thread. So, I am very curious for the outcome of that discussion.
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 04, 2014, 02:15:08 PM
Hi Misos,
beautiful photo, looks a Soviet-built Li-2.  It's still to understand if the plane was fully painted silver or the uppersurfaces only.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: 66misos on June 04, 2014, 02:37:32 PM
Hi Massimo,
look at the rear bottom fuselage - I see there demarcation line going from right to the left slightly upward - above it is shining silver, bellow it is matt surface - (blue?) paint or reflection from the snowy ground?
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: KL on June 04, 2014, 09:19:10 PM
beautiful photo, looks a Soviet-built Li-2.  It's still to understand if the plane was fully painted silver or the uppersurfaces only.

It could be a Soviet built PS-84.  In this case it would be overall silver, like this early PS-84

(http://www.polarpost.ru/forum/download/file.php?id=7756&mode=view)

Regards,
KL


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: KL on June 04, 2014, 09:24:57 PM
Another post from yesterday shows the same photo of Il-2 "2" as from the beginning of this thread. So, I am very curious for the outcome of that discussion.

That's because we are making circles between 3-4 forums.  Same people, same photos, same opinions, same misconceptions...  I don't think anybody can add anything new at this point.


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: 66misos on June 04, 2014, 10:57:07 PM
Hi KL,
...we are making circles between 3-4 forums. Same people, same photos, same opinions, same misconceptions...  I don't think anybody can add anything new at this point.
I agree with you, I would only add that "usually under different names". Not all and always, but usually. And then one can communicate with the same person on the different forums althogh have no clue about it.
Btw, is AlexGRD from propjet forum the same person as Alex from airforce.ru forum?
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 05, 2014, 07:59:05 AM
Hi,
then, it could be considered a civilian livery (strangely, on an armed plane) instead of a winter camouflage.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: 66misos on June 05, 2014, 09:04:26 AM
Hi,
as far as I know, civilian planes were silver overall and (usually) were/are not armed - exactly like that "CCCP-H" DC-3/Li-2 from KL's post above.

However, this DC-3/Li-2:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/DC-3%20or%20Li-2/7_zpsab6cb81a.jpg)
1.) is armed and
2.) there is demarcation line marked by red arrows, above it is shining silver, bellow it is matt surface - paint (original Neutral Grey or VVS light blue?) or reflection from the snowy ground?

Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 05, 2014, 09:24:55 AM
Hi Misos,
could they be the shadows of the men? One has right the shape of the big cap of the man in front of the red star, and the shadows on the ground of the men reach the shadow of the plane.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: 66misos on June 05, 2014, 04:23:19 PM
Hi Massimo,
shadows could be two darker blotches bellow two red arrows on the right. But I mean whole matt area bellow all four red arrows.
Regards,
    66misos


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 05, 2014, 10:35:02 PM
Hi Misos, can be. The plane hasn't any civilian code. Strangely the color isn't extended to the turret.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: 66misos on June 20, 2014, 05:13:04 PM
Hi,
here is my attempt to colorize bw photo of Il-2 in the winter painting:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Il-2/140622_Il-dvastrieb_05_zpsa410fe6e.jpg)

I was surprised how difficult it was, although (or due to?) there is only couple of colors. As I already wrote before, original photo is full of compression artifacts with minimum details. In some moments it was more painting new picture than colorizing bw photo. However, I did not want to change the "character" of that Il-2 - to make it too white or too silver. Your comments and/or advises are more than welcome.

Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 20, 2014, 06:28:59 PM
Hi Misos,
try with color balance, turning the shadows to blue-cyan and lights to red.
Besides the base photo needs much more restorations.
The profile of the rudder should be a bit shorter.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: 66misos on June 22, 2014, 10:41:32 PM
Hi Massimo,

I changed a bit the color balance, as you wrote - shadows to blue-cyan and lights to red. Plus I repaired some other details. I replaced photo above with this new one.
However, overall restoration basically requires to repaint the whole photo, too much work, too much time. I am not sure the photo is worth of it.

Regards,
  66misos


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 23, 2014, 06:50:46 PM
Hi Misos,
I see.
I suggest to turn the shadows on the snow to blue-cyan.
Have you found other photos of Il-2 to colorize?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: 66misos on June 24, 2014, 05:59:16 AM
Hi,
updated version - snow cloud behind plane a bit changed, additional details on the plane are added or corrected.

Massimo, I have one or two candidates in the (summer) camouflage. Not high resolution, but at least not full of the comprimation artifacts. I still have not found Il-2 photo of the similar quality like previous Avia of Bf-109. :'(
Regards,
    66misos


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 24, 2014, 09:22:26 AM
Hi Misos,
looks good. Only, there are some recognizable white scratches on the snowy surface that should be deleted. Besides I see a blue line along the rails that isn't convincing.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: 66misos on June 24, 2014, 10:59:07 AM
Hi Massimo,
thank you for comment. I will remove the most evident scratches from the snow.
But there are scratches also over the planes and when I tried to remove them it changed overall appearance of the planes and it required another "post-scratches" corrections. When enlarged the picture is not soft/blurred but is full of little squares (compr. artifacts). So tried again and again different approaches/methods but without fully satisfying result.
I do not understand what you mean by "blue line along the rails". Could you, please, explain it a bit more? Do you mean Pitot tube on the right wing?
Regards,
     66misos


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 24, 2014, 11:48:13 AM
Hi Misos,
I think you have misedintified the pitot probe. It is in inner position, well visible.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: 66misos on June 24, 2014, 12:39:21 PM
Ups :o
Massimo, thank you for correction. Yes, I misinterpreted it, although using your profile as a reference (btw very nice picture):
(http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/il2-1942/winter-singles/il2-sp-fl-aml-3view-col-2vitruk.jpg)
So rails and Pitot tube are clear now. The wing gun seems to be that black linear blotch near to landing gear gondola.
So needed corrections:
- scratches on the snow,
- cockpit rails + Pitot tube + wing gun.
Hope there are no other evident errors :-[ I will wait day or two and then I will correct them all together.
Regards,
    66misos


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 24, 2014, 02:27:34 PM
Hi Misos,
the man should be improved, particularly the color of the face.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: KL on June 24, 2014, 08:46:27 PM
It's surprising how dirty the area around the cockpit and the nose of the plane look on colorized photo.  along the same line, the plane on Massimo's drawing looks metallic because it's extremely clean...

if you compare colorized image with the original - IMHO engine cowling should be more white (or more reflective)
(http://wunderwaffe.narod.ru/WeaponBook/Avia/Mig3/Pictures/075.jpg)

IMHO, both sky and plane's undersides should be lighter.

the man should be improved, particularly the color of the face.

I would crop the picture or delete the man...

Regards,
KL


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: 66misos on June 26, 2014, 09:11:07 AM
Hi Getns,
thanx both for comments. So here is another attempt:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Il-2/140626_Il-dvastrieb_05b_zps6b9c7a14.jpg)
- rail, Pitot tube and wing gun corrected,
- plane made lighter,
- major scratches on the snow removed,
- person slightly reworked and more blended with enviro. I somehow like "human element" in the picture,
- sky is reworked.
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: KL on June 26, 2014, 07:03:22 PM
Hi Misos,
Your main problem is the grainy texture: if you want this Il-2 to look metallic, the shadows definitively can't be grainy.  You may try to translate density of grains  into 2-3 shades of gray and then arrange them as bands

(http://image.naldzgraphics.net/2012/09/2-metallic-style.jpg)

Regards,
KL


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: 66misos on June 27, 2014, 06:02:45 PM
Hi KL,
you are absolutely right about that grainy texture. However, it is "feature" of the source photo, not colorizing. I did not want to change character of the photo, especially after "white vs. silver" reactions on the Russian forums.
So I will keep my previous colorized winter Il-2 as is - not clear whether white or silver.

And I will make also "what-if" silver version.
EDIT: Work in progress:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Il-2/140709_Il-dvaAlu_09_zpse0013499.jpg)

However, it is not colorizing anymore, it is painting over original photo, so it is quite manipulative. But it looks interestingly ;-)
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: learstang on June 27, 2014, 06:21:12 PM
It does look interesting, 66misos!

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: KL on June 27, 2014, 09:07:30 PM
Hi Misos,
It looks excellent, rear fuselage looks like solid metal cylinder.

However, it is not colorizing anymore, it is painting over original photo, so it is quite manipulative.

I don't have problems with your "painting".  Colorizing is always a manipulation, what you are doing now can be called "restoration" or "enhancement"  ;)

Cheers,
KL


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: 66misos on July 01, 2014, 07:01:08 AM
Hi,
thanks all for comments.
a little progress on the picture above - the work on the front fuselage started.
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: 66misos on July 09, 2014, 06:43:26 AM
Hi,
another little progress on the picture above - plane itself with Alu surface could be finished. However, it is too clean, it stands out from picture. Probably some grains should be added to blend it with photo.
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on July 09, 2014, 07:56:01 AM
Hi Misos,
yes, that is right. Some grains and maybe a bit of 'noise' or other irregularities.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: 66misos on July 10, 2014, 06:54:31 AM
Hi Massimo,
picture after hue adjusted to a bit more cyan/blue a adding some grains:

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Il-2/140710_Il-dvastrieb_10_zpsf9f662ff.jpg)

Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on July 10, 2014, 08:05:47 AM
Hi Misos,
looks somewhat better, I think you should blend a bit the red stars, they can't be sharper than the plane outline, and add a bit of blue-green to the armorglasses.
Again, the man should have a bit more colour, particularly on its skin. Perhaps you coud merge his feet into the shadow of the plane, now it looks as glued on the photo.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: KL on July 10, 2014, 06:50:13 PM
Hi Misos,

underside of the engine cowling should be light blue too; same as rear fuselage underside.  Light blue color should be lighter than AMT-7  you are using (try AII light blue + A-18f).  Light blue is so light that the border between silver and light blue isn't visible on b/w photo.  

Border between the silver and light blue in front of the horizontal stabilizer is not visible on the original photo and it's prominent on the colorized photo - you may try to fix this...  or if that is a shadow of the horizontal stabilizer, it should be as diffused as wing shadow on the engine cowling underside.  This area is also within the "snow cloud" created by the snow thrown back by the propeller - maybe you should work on this cloud a bit more...

Compare original with your current colorized version:

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Il-2/140601_Il-dvastrieb_00_zps387b4641.jpg)
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Il-2/140710_Il-dvastrieb_10_zpsf9f662ff.jpg)

The airplane was moving forward - the "snow cloud" starts behind the main wheels and definitely engulfs horizontal stabilizer and lower part of the vertical stabilizer. All this is lost on colorized version...

Top of rear fuselage is in deeper shadow than the fuselage underside.  This is also lost at the colorized version.  top of engine cowling and probably the rear of the cockpit canopy also should be in shadow.  These shadows would make metallic effect more realistic... 

Cheers,
KL




Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: 66misos on July 14, 2014, 02:05:47 AM
Hi,
here is another update. I took all comments from your last posts and tried to fix them one by one.
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Il-2/140714_Il-dvastrieb_11_zps971d17b9.jpg)
That guy looks at the starting plane now. In previous pics he looked at cameraman.
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on July 14, 2014, 08:18:16 AM
Hi Misos,
one of the legs of the man is of different color. Besides there is a thin stripe of the coat that is too light (or a stipe of sky that was colored brown), Besides there are blotches on the coat that doesn't seem real, but a damage of the photo.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: KL on July 14, 2014, 05:51:42 PM
Hi Misos
excellent, I really like it.  Only few things to add:

1.  Make propeller blades black (more realistic, some of detail is lost on original b/w photo)
2.  top of rear fuselage looks metallic, use same technique (same gray) on top of cockpit canopy armor, in front of the windscreen and on top of engine cowling (just behind the spinner)
3.  Snow cloud under the wing is like a triangle:  its one tip is behind the main-wheel and it's widening to left.  Its top tip is under the flaps.  I would even exaggerate this because it would add some dynamics...

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/36deaacf-3dfc-42df-bb20-d93e7981bdc8_zps0c961887.jpg) (http://s292.photobucket.com/user/klesnikov/media/36deaacf-3dfc-42df-bb20-d93e7981bdc8_zps0c961887.jpg.html)

Following photos may help with the "snow cloud"

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/CAS-04518_zpsd8ec95d7.jpg) (http://s292.photobucket.com/user/klesnikov/media/Posted%20in%20forums/CAS-04518_zpsd8ec95d7.jpg.html)

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/CAS-0457_zps58210ae3.jpg) (http://s292.photobucket.com/user/klesnikov/media/Posted%20in%20forums/CAS-0457_zps58210ae3.jpg.html)

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/CAS-0458_zps43bc97e2.jpg) (http://s292.photobucket.com/user/klesnikov/media/Posted%20in%20forums/CAS-0458_zps43bc97e2.jpg.html)

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/CAS-0459_zps86c4c56c.jpg) (http://s292.photobucket.com/user/klesnikov/media/Posted%20in%20forums/CAS-0459_zps86c4c56c.jpg.html)

HTH,
KL


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: 66misos on July 15, 2014, 10:56:45 PM
Hi,
another update:
- guy corrected,
-propeller reworked,
- reworked snow cloud behind propeller/plane - KL thank a lot for very illustrative pictures,
- front fuselage&cockpit aluminium surface reworked (hope improved  :-\)
- some other touches here and there.
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Il-2/140715_Il-dvastrieb_12_zpsb0e169b4.jpg)

regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on July 16, 2014, 06:41:39 AM
Hi Misos,
the man is returned as it was.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: 66misos on July 16, 2014, 07:32:37 AM
Hi Massimo,

...man is returned as it was.
In what version? What is wrong with him?

This picture is taken from ZAIKA photo at the beginning of this thread and enlarged 300%:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Il-2/140716_PanakprizimnejIl-dva_zps364c092c.jpg)
I just realised that those lighter lines on his back and lighter area about his bottom could be leather bag. Or?

Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: KL on July 16, 2014, 08:33:04 PM
Hi Misos,
engine cowling looks like it is made of marble.  It's too clean and artificial - maybe you could add panel lines, rivets etc. + some usual grime, dirt,  etc. (called by modellers "weathering").  There is also an improbable contrast between the "weathered" wing undersides and clean fuselage.  I mean the wing looks more realistic than fuselage.

You should refer to photos on page 1 of this thread  ;)

(http://propjet.ucoz.ru/_fr/0/9028663.jpg)

Otherwise, excellent, considering the poor original b/w photo...

Cheers,
KL


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on July 17, 2014, 07:17:17 AM
Hi Misos,
probably you are right about the bag, it would justify the discontinuity in the profile of the back.
The problem with the figure is that it is without colors, nearly black. It is on the limit of the shadow of the wing, so the back and one leg arte on light, the other leg and the lower part of the right side are on shadow because of the wing.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: 66misos on July 17, 2014, 05:05:59 PM
Hi,
here is another iteration.
That guy could have bag with paper or parachute on his back, I do not know. May be he is another pilot. Anyhow, I made that bag more visible. Something like here:
(http://www.photoarchive.spb.ru/getImage.do?object=2520107454&compatible=1&original=1)

I checked these planes:
(http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/converted2seaters/takeoff.jpg)
White Il-2. Weathering very little. Only some panel lines are visible on the matt surface.

(http://www.polarpost.ru/forum/download/file.php?id=7756&mode=view)
Silver DC-3/Li-2. No weathering is visible on the shining surface. Only lines of rivets or panel lines are very little visible.

So I added very little visible panel lines on the front fuselage according to the Massimo's drawing, but no weathering except exhaust stains. Ii-2 front fuselage was made from relatively thick armor plates, its surface was more homogen than "wavy" surface of DC-3/Li-2 made from thin material.
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Il-2/140717_Il-dvastrieb_13_zps173984e0.jpg)


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: KL on July 17, 2014, 06:17:46 PM
Hi Missos and Massimo,
The "guy" is most likely a pilot and what you are calling a "bag" is a parachute.  With the bag that Misos has now, he looks like a postman...  ;D

The leather coat was most likely a standard prewar black pilots coat

(http://trinixy.ru/pics3/20080218/forma_31.jpg)

the thin strap is probably map case ("planshet") strap

(http://undread.narod.ru/uniform/CCCP/image004.jpg)

Again, on page 1 of this tread you can see photos of pilots taken at same or similar time....

HTH,
KL


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: 66misos on July 18, 2014, 10:02:57 AM
Hi KL,
good point ;)  Postman at the airport, waving at the aircraft... ::)
And what about guys in your post http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1799.msg14742#msg14742 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1799.msg14742#msg14742)?
(http://vif2ne.ru/nvi/forum/files/Zaika/(100905192353)_doklad_u_Il-2kopirovanie.jpg)    (http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Il-2/140716_PanakprizimnejIl-dva_zps364c092c.jpg)

(http://vif2ne.ru/nvi/forum/files/Zaika/(100905192510)_tri_pilota_u_gorbatogokopirovanie.jpg)

They look like pilots, some of them with parachute, others only with little leather bag/case for map, papers etc.
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: KL on July 18, 2014, 07:27:59 PM
Hi Misos,
let me reword my previous post:

the "guy" is a pilot (or someone dressed in pilots gear?).  You should make him look similar to the pilots on other photos from the page 1 of the thread.

The "bag" is either a parachute or a map "planshet".  Judging by the strap only it is map planshet...  :)


Following photos show parachute and its straps:

(http://s019.radikal.ru/i606/1301/37/9f14d3c4ca6e.jpg)

(http://www.redov.ru/voennaja_istorija/_korol_istrebitelei_boevye_samolety_polikarpova/pic_13.jpg)

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-lRhuL1kBst0/URcnzXkNW0I/AAAAAAAAAm8/HZBnit7q0ac/s1600/%D0%95%D1%89%D0%B5+%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%BD%D0%B0+%D1%81%D1%86%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BA%D0%B0+%D0%B8%D0%B7+%D0%B0%D1%8D%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B4%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B9+%D0%B6%D0%B8%D0%B7%D0%BD%D0%B8.jpg)

(http://nacekomie.ru/forum/files/201302/30104_ba0926e6f70c8272e936b319264c935f.jpg)

So, there are several straps that should be visible and they are not...



Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: 66misos on July 21, 2014, 06:38:28 AM
Hi KL,

I took parachute of this guy as a basement
(http://www.redov.ru/voennaja_istorija/_korol_istrebitelei_boevye_samolety_polikarpova/pic_13.jpg)

reworked it and applied it on my guy:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Il-2/140731_Il-dvastrieb_3postavy_zps9f6f85c4.jpg)
Hope he looks more like pilot than postman now ;)

regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on July 21, 2014, 07:08:10 AM
Hi Misos,
I think that the color of the parachute should be more khaki, not so brown.
The problem, in my way, is that one can see too much the difference between the original blurried contours of the man and the new details.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: KL on July 21, 2014, 07:31:13 AM
Hi Misos,
the coat should be bluish black, fur collar should be dark brown.

In the previous post I actually changed my mind regarding the parachute.  There are too many straps that should be visible on the original photo.  I think "the guy" is one of those in leather coat with planshet only. The planshet was brown leather. He may have a revolver hanging from his belt too.
Sorry,
KL


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: 66misos on July 21, 2014, 09:09:57 AM
Hi,
thanks for comments.
Massimo, I know the color of parachute and harness should be more khaki and brighter, at least according to the photos and pictures above. They are quite contrasting against black/dark pilot coat. However, on the original photo nothing like that is visible. Therefore I tried to tone it dark/brown not to be so apparent.

...it is painting over original photo, so it is quite manipulative.
...Colorizing is always a manipulation, what you are doing now can be called "restoration" or "enhancement"  ;) ...

So I am not decided yet whether I will restore that guy as the pilot with parachute (IMHO nicer but more manipulative) or without parachute, only with leather case what would be visually closer to original photo. ???
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on July 21, 2014, 09:38:00 AM
Hi Misos, hi Konstantin,
I see that there is not the expected contrast for the harness in the real photo, but the protrusion under the back is difficult to explain if not with a parachute.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: 66misos on July 31, 2014, 05:48:25 PM
Hi,
I do not want to bore/spam you with with endless alternatives. So I put 3 pilots into picture above - one with parachute, one with case with map and one with case without map. ;)
In all 3 cases the figure in the black coat is the same, only difference is in the equipment. IMHO that last one is closest to the original photo.
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: 66misos on August 06, 2014, 10:09:00 AM
Hi,
no responses/objections regarding my last post, so here is the final version - observer (pilot) with leather case without map:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Il-2/140806_Il-2silverwintercamo_zps7c1ce66e.jpg)

Now I am going to move on to another plane. Not decided yet whether summer Il-2 or Yak-9 formation. Or something else.

PS:
Interesting response from scalemodels.ru http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_p_1038745.html#1038745 (http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_p_1038745.html#1038745)
You are trying to see something in the photo, which has undergone severe retouching? ...camouflage is likely "washed out" by photographer and shadows are painted by pencil.
... I revised so many photos "you never dreamed of." And believe me, is not a problem to retouch.
Here, for example. The plane - one, the rest - imprinted and painted on. And there? Got it! And here good editing! And here the picture cleaned. And eraser went through also this photo.
Well, on the topic of Sturmoviks... That photo, reprinted on the net - too retouching and montage. Or this, published in the journal, too...
For your information - every (every!) photo intended for publication in a newspaper or magazine was subjected to retouching. So it is strongly recommended not to use such photos to determine the color.


Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: learstang on August 06, 2014, 06:46:30 PM
It looks good to me, 66misos!  Good job! Regarding the retouching of photographs, I have seen some Soviet photographs, and not just of aeroplanes, that are so retouched that they are really just drawings based upon a photograph.

Best Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on August 06, 2014, 10:48:39 PM
Yes, I saw scans of original photos and they were full of dots, scratches and other defects. All things that disappear on books and sites.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: KL on October 08, 2014, 07:43:28 PM
Hi Misos,
I know you are done with this one and it was long time ago...  but at the time when you worked on this photo, we had focused on representation of metallic surface, snow clouds, parachutes etc.  We haven't really consider silver paint!

It looks that silver is still popular in Russia - paints similar to wartime VVS silver are still in production.  Google images for "серебрянка" and you will get the idea.

An interesting example at http://color-paints.ru/?p=9006#gallery
It shows a water tower painted in silver in summer and in winter.

(http://color-paints.ru/UserFiles/Image/9006/small_DSC02733.jpg) (http://color-paints.ru/img/zimral.jpg)

Paint manufacturer says that their silver RAL 9006 ?Серебристый алюминий? looks especially effective in winter surrounded in white...

Considering example above, I would suggest following:
- undersides of your Il-2 nose (and area between LG legs) is too dark!  Even the rear fuselage underside could be lighter
- the areas in shadow are bluish gray, not pure gray you used.  Under certain angles pinkish is also visible???

(http://color-paints.ru/i/9006zim.JPG)

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Il-2/140806_Il-2silverwintercamo_zps7c1ce66e.jpg)

HTH,
KL



Title: Re: Silver Il-2?
Post by: 66misos on October 09, 2014, 09:02:47 AM
Hi KL,
nice and interesting photos.
I think there are two different questions:
1.) Did VVS use silver (serebrjanka) paint for winter camoflage? Also your photos show that "serbrjanka" would work very effectively.
2.) Was this particular Il-2 painted silver or is it retouch or both?
     These both pictures are from scalemodels.ru http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_7288_start_780.html (http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_7288_start_780.html), from discussion about retouch:
      (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/winter/silvering-il2-mig3.jpg)

      (http://karopka.ru/upload/comments/d09/mig3_10.jpg)
At least that guy has face removed on the upper photo. Who knows what else is retouched...

I made that Il-2 sometime latter again in the "serebrjanka" appearance. It would be nice to have photo from "Zaika" but without "Zaika" watermark. It is in significantly better quality.
Regards,
   66misos